Guest guest Posted February 2, 2001 Report Share Posted February 2, 2001 Dear Raws,<br><br>It seems that Vegetarians are against killing animals because Buddha says, or to stop animal suffering, or because farmed animals are ecologically bad, or as a protest against Industrial Society.<br><br>While Raws seem to be more interested in the good effects raw has on their well-being.<br><br>My personal opinion is I am far, far more knowledgeable than Buddha was 3,000 years ago and no doubt a better integrated person.<br><br>I don't believe animals suffer because I don't believe they are conscious.<br><br>The farming of cattle is ecologically bad, while the farming of kangaroos is ecologically benign.<br><br>And I believe Industrial Society has freed us from slavery and serfdom.<br><br>To live in a Society where even the poor can, if they wish, eat raw, that is, eat large amounts of fresh fruit and vegetables, nuts and seeds, all year round, is unprecedented in human history.<br><br>We are the Princesses and Princes of history. We should never complain. We should show our gratitude by enjoying and celebrating fresh fruit and vegetables, nuts and seeds, everyday. And it is our duty to share our pleasure with others but with care and respect for their wishes and tastes.<br><br>I find I am out of sympathy with Vegetarianism although I like individual vegetarians as I do meateaters.<br><br>The last century was the century of -isms, which were plainly evil. No more, please.<br><br>I think the nicest thing to do is to share delicious fresh food with our friends, family, the poor, the sick and the lonely.<br><br>They probably think so too.<br><br>Victor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2001 Report Share Posted February 2, 2001 & gt; & gt; & gt;It seems that Vegetarians are against killing animals because Buddha says, or to stop animal suffering, or because farmed animals are ecologicall bad, or as a protest against Industrial Society.<br><br>I became vegetarian and then vegan becasue I prefer for animals not to die or suffer for me in factory farms. " Protest against industrial society " I have never heard that one.<br><br>Many raw veg*ans origionally became vegetarian for animal suffering reasons and then became exposed to the raw food idea from there. As I did!<br><br> & gt; & gt; & gt;I am far, far more knowledgeable than Buddha was 3,000 years ago and no doubt a better integrated person.<br><br>Maybe buddists should start worshipping you! No seriously that's the most arrogant thing I have ever heard. You are are seriously deluded into thinking such things or even comaring yourself in such ways to such people.<br><br> & gt; & gt; & gt;I don't believe animals suffer because I don't believe they are conscious.<br><br>Animals can feel pain and emotions such as saddness and fear. Can I ask you a question would it concern you if you had say a pet cat and this cat was in pain??<br><br> & gt; & gt; & gt;The last century was the century of -isms, which were plainly evil. No more, please.<br><br>Raw foodism, raw vegetarianism .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2001 Report Share Posted February 2, 2001 Dear Buddha, aka Shortus,<br><br>Me used to think you spoke your beliefs and practices, even when you knew they would be unpopular with some on this board, in the interest of stimulating an interesting conversation. Now I wonder whether you believe all you say.<br><br>Re Buddha, he was born into a family of royalty but became troubled at a young age by all the suffering he saw in the ordinary people of his time. He devoted his life trying to figure this out and came to a number of conclusions that can be boiled down roughly as this: In life there will be suffering. Full stop. If you examine the causes of suffering you will usually find that it is related to want, desire, greed, etc. Therefore, if you want to eliminate suffering you have to work within to eliminate these emotions. To do that you follow a lot of practices designed to instil control over your emotions and desires. There are obviously many books about this that take it to further steps, but this is more or less the gist of it as I remember.<br><br>You say you believe you are " far, far more knowledgable than Buddha " . You probably are on some subjects (electrical engineer? physicist? whatever), but I doubt you are on understanding human behavior and in any event you absolutley have no way of knowing that since you never met the Buddha. So your comment is unsupported as stated.<br><br>Your mention that he lived 3000 years ago (I believe it's more like 2500) suggests that the time span makes it likely that people today are more " knowledgable " (whatever exactly that means) than people of that time. We in the technological era think we are advanced due to all the neat gadgets and tricks " scientists " can do nowadays to the human body, to crops, to studying and breaking down objects. Doctors can stop your heart, put it in an ice chest, scrape your arteries, then put you back together again. I guess in some respects that is " advanced " .<br><br>But how smart are we, really. We have built road systems in most countries to get to work faster an d move things around, etc. But now we get stuck in traffic and problems from the pollution. In most communities (US in particular) we almost cannot live without an automobile. We are now dependent on this technology and don't walk like we should as a result. I can hardly ride a bicycle around Dallas for fear of getting run over.<br><br>We've " engineered " food products so they can be transported and stored long periods. We've helped reduce starvation, but the adulterated food contributes to chronic disease and weakens our immune system (that's why I believe raw is the better way!). We're now giving up our responsibilities for our health and fate into the hands of doctors and scientists even though we know that, in the US, mistakes made by doctors and in hospitals are the 3 leading cause of ALL deaths. And now, our " scientists " are genetically engineering everything they can think of on the unstated premise that natural creation made mistakes and we're smart enough to fix them.<br><br>Archaelogists in the Americas have discovered great ancient civilizations that existed thousands of years ago that were way advanced in things like astrology, time, etc. Knowledge can be used for many objectives. Let's not assume a few thousand years in the long history of mankind means we are now far superior. We may be advanced by some measures but losing the big picture in others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2001 Report Share Posted February 2, 2001 Your post was a bit " different " but this sentence stuck out like a neon sign.<br><br> & lt; & lt; & lt;I don't believe animals suffer because I don't believe they are conscious. & gt; & gt; & gt;<br><br>You aren't serious, are you? Animals don't suffer?? Of course they do. They (most) have central nervous systems much like we do and they do suffer. They feel pain like we do and some even feel sorrow, jealousy, elation and a whole spectrum of emotions. I don't know why someone would even say such a thing, unless he was a devout meat eater or vivisector. You aren't either of those things, are you? Sheesh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2001 Report Share Posted February 2, 2001 Shortus,<br><br>You say you don't believe animals suffer because you don't believe they are conscious. What exactly is conscious?<br><br>1. Using one's mental powers; capable of thought, will or perception 2. Able to perceive what is happening 3. Having or showing self consciousness; aware 4. Done with awareness; intentional; deliberate.<br><br>Have you ever seen a predatory animal stalk it's prey? Have you ever seen a dog that's been hit by a car and in agony? Have you ever seen the fear in a dog's eyes when he thinks your going to swat his butt with a newspaper for chewing on the furniture (then he does it the next day anyway!)?<br> Animals don't display consciousness? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2001 Report Share Posted February 3, 2001 I think I understand Victor's post. People who believe that animals aren't conscious are in that group of soul-less humans propagating wretched amounts of suffering on this planet. They probably all would say they are more knowledgeable than Buddha. After all, that silly saint was into peace, kindness and love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2001 Report Share Posted February 3, 2001 " There is nothing rarer among moralists and saints than honesty. " Nietzsche Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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