Guest guest Posted May 9, 2004 Report Share Posted May 9, 2004 Jill and others, Hereunder is another private (but not confidential) email which may help explain Taiping Zoo's standing in the official zoo community. But, if I'm not mistaken, there's nothing to stop Pretoria from sending offspring of the T4 gorillas to Taiping as a legit zoo animal exchange, without the EEP/SSP's blessing, so once again a loophole the size of the state of Texas is there, for the criminals to win out in the long run. Also, some more interesting tidbits. Pretoria's director nominated the current WAZA director for his position. Nothing wrong with that. But it's also been learned Belo Horizonte Zoo in Brasil also applied for the T4 gorillas from Malaysia - similar scenario - they have a lone silverback - but they weren't considered or mentioned. Some claim they felt it " was the right thing to do " to send the gorillas back to Africa, thus Pretoria was the choice - but why not Johannesburg, who had 2 adult gorillas (Max and Lisa) at the time? Funny how documents look like the " fix " for Pretoria was in from day one, with CITES officials in South Africa allegedly pressuring their Malaysian counterparts to select Pretoria too. And WAZA was not about to choose a sanctuary over one of its own zoos, so, in essence, the sanctuary option was never seriously considered and apparently a lot of deliberately false information was given** to make sure these gorillas remained in the zoo world, so Willie Labuschagne, Pretoria's director, could throw out the threat gorillas will be all dead in 10 years if Pretoria doesn't take these babies to protect them from the bad guys in Cameroon .... What has Pretoria *ever* done for gorilla conservation before now?? At least Johannesburg zoo has been a PASA supporter for years, showing an attempt at recognizing the real problems facing gorillas in the wild, not just the self-serving zoo way of bogus conservation babble with no effect or meaning. **More examples of lies told to dissuade officials from picking the sanctuary option: Gorillas would be returned to Cameroon, released to fend for themselves, then die or become bushmeat, etc. Gorillas would be castrated or sterilized. Cameroon, according to some South African government officials I've been privately emailing, is responsible for " allowing " their gorillas to be stolen, and can't/shouldn't be " rewarded " by having those animals returned to them, since Cameroon is, according to them, equally responsible as Nigeria and Malaysia. Of course, the fact that Nigerians never implicated the blame on Cameroonians (and these countries haven't always been on the best of terms, so a little scape-goating wouldn't be a surprise) doesn't seem to matter - Cameroon is guilty of letting its wildlife be stolen. I guess a woman is guilty of letting herself be raped too, in this way of thinking. Naturally, South Africans are blameless, according to this theory, except perhaps in some judgment or letting gorillas fly on their national airline and transit through their country without anyone questioning it ... Amazing. Finally, this snippet from this news story quoting Labushagne shows the arrogance of many in South Africa towards Cameroon and sanctuaries: http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/24841/story.htm >>Cameroon has long demanded the return of the lowland gorillas.... Pretoria zoo's Labuschagne dismissed the concerns of the welfare groups as emotional, saying a life in captivity was a good opportunity for the animals. " This is not a fantasy world. They romanticize Cameroon as animals jumping up and down the mountains, the rivers, streams and eating bananas. It's not the case. The situation in the wild is pretty bad, " he said.<< This mirrors the WAZA statement that " gorillas need zoos (zoos don't need gorillas) " reflecting this sick arrogance that pervades the entire T4 case. Jane Dewar - WAZA Director 'Jane T. R. Dewar' Thursday, May 06, 2004 10:56 AM AW: Animals for Sale - Pretoria Zoo Briefly: Taping Zoo was a candidate for WAZA Membership. As soon as we heard rumours about the gorillas, the application was placed on hold and now, as the case is finished, the zoo was deleted from the list of candidates. To become a candidate, a zoo must be nominated by two members in good standing and I do not foresee this to happen in the case of Taiping in a foreseeable future. The application will then have to be examined by the membership Committee, and again I do not believe that the zoo would pass for as long as Kevin Lazarus is director. Regarding gorillas: the international studbook is kept under WAZA auspices, but the programmes are actually run by the regions (ASP, EEP), which means that we have no direct influence. However, as Christian Schmidt was among the first ones to request the deletion of Taiping from our candidate list, I do not anticipate that they will get any animals from the EEP, and I assume that Dan Wharton would also not agree to give any SSP animals to them, in spite of the fact that they have a reasonable enclosure (see attachment). Regards Peter -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Jane T. R. Dewar [jdewar] Gesendet: Donnerstag, 6. Mai 2004 16:07 An: WAZA Director Cc: CESD A Betreff: Re: Animals for Sale - Pretoria Zoo Dear Peter, Thank you for taking time from your busy schedule to answer my questions. I'm sure you must think I have nothing better to do with *my* time than to compose these emails and bother important people with my concerns, but I assure you that's not the case. My final question (for now) regards WAZA policies on zoos like Taiping, involved in a crime like the T4 case ... What happens to them now or in the future? Will Taiping be sanctioned or not allowed to exchange gorillas in the future? Is there anything done about Kevin Lazarus' role in this, or is his stance that he was duped into believing this was a routine zoo exchange believed/accepted? If you haven't done so, please check out our website at www.gorilla-haven.org to see our first gorilla resident's first day outside in over a decade ... Thank you in advance for your time and reply. Jane - " Jill Gershen " <jgershen <primfocus Saturday, May 08, 2004 8:32 PM primfocus: Another gorilla document > Could this mean that they worked out an arrangement whereby the offspring of > these gorillas would be transferred to the Taiping Zoo, in what would be a > legal transfer??? How would one find this out? > > Jill Gershen > > Shirley McGreal <smcgreal wrote: > > MALAYSIAN AND SOUTH AFRICAN OFFICIALS MEET ON 21 OCTOBER 2003 TO DISCUSS > GORILLAS > > A meeting was held at the Department of Wildlife and National Parks, > Malaysia on 21 October 2003. The subject of the meeting was the > " translocation of the 4 gorillas from Taiping Zoo to National Zoological > Gardens of South Africa. " > > Among the topics of discussion was " Future collaboration. " This was listed as > 1) Animal Exchange Program, 2) Exchange in Technical Assistance. " > > Five Malaysians were present. They did NOT include the Minister of the > Environment. The senior official present was Dato' Musa Nordin of > Malaysia's Department of Wildlife and National Parks. On the South African > side, the High Commissioner of South Africa and Lucy Mahlungo, Andile Nconsa > and Pretoria zoo director Willie Labuschagne were present. > > Pretoria Zoo agreed to pay costs of transportation and crates. Both sides > agreed to expedite issuance of CITES permits. The Malaysian Department of > Veterinary Services agreed to take blood samples from the gorillas " for > tests in South Africa. " [There was no mention of DNA testing which was > always a scarlet herring]. > > The parties set a tentative date of 30 November 2003 for the shipment. > Costs were estimated at US $25,763. > > The South Africans agreed to pay for a Malaysian veterinarian to inspect > the gorillas' planned enclosure at Pretoria Zoo and that two Taiping Zoo > personnel would be flown to South Africa for the gorillas' " transition > period " of two weeks. > > Publicity would be handled jointly and would " at the very minimum be based on > a joint statement by DWNP (Malaysia's wildlife department) and NZG, South > Africa (Pretoria Zoo). " > > " Future collaboration " would include " animal exchange program and technical > collaboration. However, the parameters mentioned would be further elaborated. > The collaboration would be at a government-to-government level with DWNP > taking the leading role. " > > Section J discussed " ownership " of the gorillas. It was stated that, > " Ownership of the gorillas is as per se in the CITES Protocol. " [if anyone has > any idea what this means, please let me know]. > > Dr. Shirley McGreal, Chairwoman > International Primate Protection League > PO Box 766 > Summerville, SC 29484, USA > Phone - 843-871-2280, Fax- 843-871-7988 > E-mail - smcgreal, Web: www.ippl.org > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2004 Report Share Posted May 9, 2004 Hi Peter, I'll stand by my posting and thank you for your comment on the veracity of some of my statements from your point of view. As for this being a waste of time, that's exactly what the head of Cites, Mr. Wijnstekers, seems to think. I, on the other hand, believe it's only by having open dialogues like this that we can get to the truth. When IPPL first brought up the fact that 4 baby gorillas were in Taiping and they couldn't be legit, they were dismissed until they did all the work WAZA and CITES should have done in the first place, and *proved* without any doubt that the T4 gorillas were illegal. It's hardly any wonder some of us don't trust the people in charge (fox in the henhouse syndrome), so while it's understandable you'd be frustrated, please try to consider what we've gone through as this crime unfolded. Hiding behind indignation or dismissing legitimate concerns as " nonsense " doesn't answer questions I and many others still have about this case. Mr. Wijnstekers tells us he doesn't have time to deal with this, yet I wonder just who IS supposed to answer questions about the dubious practices of those in CITES or WAZA or other agencies involved in this crime? As for Pretoria one day sending these gorillas to Taiping as a zoo exchange, I wasn't sure of that, as I stated. However I am aware of many cases where the SSP makes recommendations, but just like those CITES laws, those recommendations aren't always followed, and there's no definite way to get a zoo to comply, other than political pressure, which doesn't always work. Talk of a " bilateral agreement " only make it seem more suspicious and so far Mr. Labuschagne and others haven't clarified what this term really means now and in the future. Bottom line, no one was recommending sending the gorillas back to Cameroon, and WAZA and CITES were the two official agencies making recommendations.... Is that at least a fair statement? And CITES in Malaysia got to make the final decision, under pressure from their government to find a way to one day get those gorillas back, so Pretoria seemed like a sure thing. I don't believe any of these emails would be so upsetting to you and others, if we weren't getting close to something that's really bothering you, about this case. It's clear it's a crime no one at WAZA or CITES wants to discuss, yet Pretoria and WAZA will " win " by keeping those gorilla genes out of their homeland and in the captive population, regardless of the repeated requests by Cameroon to have them returned. It's really not my intention to upset you or anyone else, but when the answers we're getting don't jive with the documentation we're seeing, it makes me wonder and when I wonder, I ask questions. And I will continue to ask questions until I get some answers which make sense. Pretoria keeping the T4 gorillas makes no sense to me and many others, who will respectfully be sure this case stays in the forefront for years and years to come. Some may be angry and disrespectful, but I will continue to try to keep this dialogue going in a civil manner, until I have some answers that make sense, and I appreciate your effort and time to help me in that regard. Sincerely, Jane - <waza.director " Jane T. R. Dewar " <jdewar; " Jill Gershen " <jgershen; " primfocus " <primfocus Cc: " Asian Animal Protection " <aapn >; <alloprimate >; <gorillakeepers >; " Deon Hignett SA-T4 " <Dhignett; " Willie Labuschagne Pretoria SA " <wlab Sunday, May 09, 2004 3:22 PM RE: New news on T4 > Jane, please refrain from circulating such nonsense. > > It is not correct that there's nothing to stop Pretoria from sending offspring > of the T4 gorillas to Taiping as a legit zoo animal exchange. WAZA has a > policy on the acceptance of confiscated animals, but that was not what you > asked for in the first place. > > It is not correct that Willie Labuschagne nominated me for WAZA Director. > > It is not correct that Belo Horizonte ever applied to WAZA for receiving > the gorillas or that WAZA was aware of such an application addressed to whomever. > > We made it also clear a long time ago, that it was not up to WAZA to consider > various options or to take a decision as to where the gorillas should go. > We simply offered an option in case the gorillas would have to be confiscated > and could not be returned to their country of origin. > > WAZA never pretended that the gorillas would be sterilized or castrated. > > > I must say I already regret that I responded to your earlier mails as it > is really useless and a waste of time to get involved in such correspondence. > > > >-- Original-Nachricht -- > > " Jane T. R. Dewar " <jdewar > > " Jill Gershen " <jgershen, " primfocus " <primfocus > >Cc: " Asian Animal Protection " <aapn >, > > <alloprimate >, <gorillakeepers >, > > " Peter Dollinger, Director WAZA " <waza.director, > > " Deon Hignett SA-T4 " <Dhignett, > > " Willie Labuschagne Pretoria SA " <wlab > >New news on T4 > >Sun, 9 May 2004 09:36:42 -0400 > > > > > >Jill and others, > > > >Hereunder is another private (but not confidential) email which may help > >explain Taiping Zoo's standing in the official zoo community. > > > >But, if I'm not mistaken, there's nothing to stop Pretoria from sending > >offspring of the T4 gorillas to Taiping as a legit zoo animal exchange, > >without the EEP/SSP's blessing, so once again a loophole the size of the > >state of Texas is there, for the criminals to win out in the long run. > > > >Also, some more interesting tidbits. Pretoria's director nominated the > >current WAZA director for his position. Nothing wrong with that. But it's > >also been learned Belo Horizonte Zoo in Brasil also applied for the T4 > >gorillas from Malaysia - similar scenario - they have a lone silverback > - > >but they weren't considered or mentioned. > > > >Some claim they felt it " was the right thing to do " to send the gorillas > >back to Africa, thus Pretoria was the choice - but why not Johannesburg, > >who > >had 2 adult gorillas (Max and Lisa) at the time? Funny how documents look > >like the " fix " for Pretoria was in from day one, with CITES officials in > >South Africa allegedly pressuring their Malaysian counterparts to select > >Pretoria too. > > > >And WAZA was not about to choose a sanctuary over one of its own zoos, > so, > >in essence, the sanctuary option was never seriously considered and > >apparently a lot of deliberately false information was given** to make > sure > >these gorillas remained in the zoo world, so Willie Labuschagne, Pretoria's > >director, could throw out the threat gorillas will be all dead in 10 years > >if Pretoria doesn't take these babies to protect them from the bad guys > in > >Cameroon .... What has Pretoria *ever* done for gorilla conservation before > >now?? At least Johannesburg zoo has been a PASA supporter for years, > >showing an attempt at recognizing the real problems facing gorillas in > the > >wild, not just the self-serving zoo way of bogus conservation babble with > >no > >effect or meaning. > > > >**More examples of lies told to dissuade officials from picking the > >sanctuary option: Gorillas would be returned to Cameroon, released to > fend > >for themselves, then die or become bushmeat, etc. Gorillas would be > >castrated or sterilized. > > > >Cameroon, according to some South African government officials I've been > >privately emailing, is responsible for " allowing " their gorillas to be > >stolen, and can't/shouldn't be " rewarded " by having those animals returned > >to them, since Cameroon is, according to them, equally responsible as > >Nigeria and Malaysia. Of course, the fact that Nigerians never implicated > >the blame on Cameroonians (and these countries haven't always been on the > >best of terms, so a little scape-goating wouldn't be a surprise) doesn't > >seem to matter - Cameroon is guilty of letting its wildlife be stolen. > I > >guess a woman is guilty of letting herself be raped too, in this way of > >thinking. > > > >Naturally, South Africans are blameless, according to this theory, except > >perhaps in some judgment or letting gorillas fly on their national airline > >and transit through their country without anyone questioning it ... > > > >Amazing. > > > >Finally, this snippet from this news story quoting Labushagne shows the > >arrogance of many in South Africa towards Cameroon and sanctuaries: > > > >http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/24841/story.htm > >>>Cameroon has long demanded the return of the lowland gorillas.... > > > >Pretoria zoo's Labuschagne dismissed the concerns of the welfare groups > as > >emotional, saying a life in captivity was a good opportunity for the > >animals. > > > > " This is not a fantasy world. They romanticize Cameroon as animals jumping > >up and down the mountains, the rivers, streams and eating bananas. It's > not > >the case. The situation in the wild is pretty bad, " he said.<< > > > >This mirrors the WAZA statement that " gorillas need zoos (zoos don't need > >gorillas) " reflecting this sick arrogance that pervades the entire T4 case. > > > >Jane Dewar > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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