Fw: primfocus: South African article re gorilla deal

[Guest guest]

Very good points made ... IMHO. Zoos will always have more money than

sanctuaries, so if it's boiling down to who has more money, zoos will win.

But then if that were the only reason to give these gorillas to Pretoria,

then Michael Jackson should also be considered, since he can buy the same

veterinary care and facilities ...!

 

Also, Jen, Pretoria's had 4 gorillas and 1 male " owned " by Jersey (Channel

Islands) is still alive. According to my records, they had 2 gorillas born

(to the same sire/dam) and both babies died within days, one of a fractured

skull. This isn't so unsual and doesn't necessarily mean anyone at Pretoria

did anything wrong, but it DOES speak to the experience (or lack thereof) of

Pretoria over Limbe, of which since I've been familiar with them (circa

1995) 10 of the 12 gorillas arriving there in critical condition are still

alive and thriving.

 

These gorillas belong to Cameroon. These gorillas should be returned to

Cameroon. Trying to scare people into thinking the gorillas will be dumped

back in the wild and left to die is absurd and insulting and just shows a

lack of understanding of just what sanctuaries are all about.

 

Jane

 

 

-

" Jennifer Feuerstein " <gr8ape

<primfocus

Tuesday, July 22, 2003 1:22 PM

primfocus: Re: South African article re gorilla deal

 

 

> >

> >Mon, 21 Jul 2003 22:12:30 -0400

> >Shirley McGreal <smcgreal

> >primfocus: South African article re gorilla deal

> >

>

><http://www.mg.co.za/Content/l3.asp?ao=17540>http://www.mg.co.za/Content/l3

..asp?ao=17540

> >

> >Zoo director says they can take care of orphaned chimps

> >Pretoria

> >21 July 2003 14:48

> >A South African zoo director Monday defended plans by the Malaysian

> >government to send four baby gorillas to the country, saying his zoo was

> >the best place for the primates, who would be killed if let out into the

> >wild.

>

> This implies that Limbe will just march the gorillas out into the forest

> they day they arrive and let them go! This isn't going to happen. The

> National Zoo of South Africa can rest soundly knowing that plans for

gorilla

> reintroduction into the forests of Cameroon will include provisions for

> monitoring and protecting the gorillas. Worrying about their fate in the

> wild treads very closely to the nonsense that we should remove all great

> apes from the wild for their own good. If they go to Pretoria, their only

> possible futures include death at an early age, a lifetime in captivity

> (possibly shipped from zoo to zoo), and any children also suffering the

same

> fate--including ending up in the hands of some of the criminals in this

> case: the Taiping Zoo in Malaysia. If they go to Limbe, the gorillas'

> possible futures could include death at an early age or a lifetime in

> captivity. There is no denying that. But there also includes the real

> possibility of freedom to live in their forest homes, protected from harm

> inflicted by humans. If they have children, these children will be born

in

> the forest, not behind bars. They deserve this chance. Why are WAZA,

> Pretoria, and Malaysia so determined to deny these gorillas this

> opportunity?

>

> >

> >Willie Labuschagne, director at the Pretoria zoo, reacted to requests by

> >international primate conservationists to have the decision reviewed by

the

> >Malaysian government.

> >

> >

> >Said Labuschagne: " I'm not here to degrade other institutions but the

> >National Zoological Gardens (in Pretoria) is, weight by weight, far more

> >advanced and professional than the Limbe Wildlife centre. It is really

not

> >comparing apples with apples. "

>

> The zoo in Pretoria has a *terrible* record of keeping gorillas alive!

75%

> or something to that amount have died! No zoo in the world has sent them

> more gorillas, even though there is a so-called surplus of male gorillas

in

> captivity. Limbe has saved the lives of gorillas who have arrived in

> dreadful condition--starving, sick, depressed. Yes, a few have died, but

10

> are currently thriving under the *professional* care Limbe provides.

>

> >

> >He said that some one million rand ($130 000) had been made available to

> >upgrade the gorilla enclosure at the zoo.

>

> That's great. Use some of that money to make life better for the gorilla

> left in Pretoria, and give the rest to Limbe for the Taiping 4 if the

> Pretoria zoo's first concern is indeed for those gorillas, and not for

> *acquiring* the gorillas. This isn't about money. If it were then we

> should ship the gorillas off to Bill Gates. Zoos always have more money

> than sanctuaries. It doesn't automatically mean that zoos do a better

job.

> Limbe has kept 10 gorillas (as well as chimps, monkeys, and other

wildlife)

> alive on far less than zoos have in their budget. Furthermore, the

gorillas

> are West African. The gov'ts of Cameroon and Nigeria have requested they

be

> returned to their homeland. At least these gov'ts publicly acknowledge a

> terrible crime took place right under their noses. (Unlike South Africa,

> which also played a role in the gorillas' trip to Malaysia.) There is a

> place for them to live in West Africa. Why does this not seem to count

for

> anything??

>

> >

> > " They will be much safer in a zoo than being released into the wild. The

> >present bush meat (meat from wild animals including gorillas and monkeys)

> >situation in Africa is horrendous. They (the gorillas) don't have a great

> >life expectancy if they go back into the wild, " he said.

>

> They also don't have a great life expectancy if they go to Pretoria. So

I'm

> not sure I see his point. He's right that the bushmeat situation is

> horrendous, but that has nothing to do with where the gorillas should end

> up. The bushmeat situation is horrendous because greed and governments

and

> loggers and conservation groups and the general world public have let it

get

> that way. What is the National Zoo of South Africa doing to address the

> bushmeat crisis? (This is an actual question, not a rhetorical one.)

>

> >

> >Labuschagne said a decision whether to relocate the primates was expected

> >later in the week. - Sapa-AFP

>

> I hope that for once, a good decision is made for the Taiping 4, and they

> will join the gorilla group at Limbe. But no matter where they end up,

> there is still the small matter that this can and will happen again unless

> changes are made in the system that was used to get these gorillas to

> Malaysia in the first place. If it happened to gorillas, it must be

> happening to countless other less-high-profile endangered species all

around

> the world. This can't be an isolated case.

>

> --Jen

>

[Guest guest]

FYI ... j.

 

-

" Jennifer Feuerstein " <gr8ape

<primfocus

Tuesday, July 22, 2003 9:44 PM

primfocus: Re: South African article re gorilla deal

 

 

> >

> >Tue, 22 Jul 2003 13:54:15 -0400

> > " Jane T. R. Dewar " <jdewar

> >Fw: primfocus: Re: South African article re gorilla deal

> >

> >Very good points made ... IMHO. Zoos will always have more money than

> >sanctuaries, so if it's boiling down to who has more money, zoos will

win.

> >But then if that were the only reason to give these gorillas to Pretoria,

> >then Michael Jackson should also be considered, since he can buy the same

> >veterinary care and facilities ...!

>

> Well, by all accounts, Mr. Jackson is having some money troubles. How

about

> Ted Turner or Donald Trump?

>

> >

> >Also, Jen, Pretoria's had 4 gorillas and 1 male " owned " by Jersey

(Channel

> >Islands) is still alive. According to my records, they had 2 gorillas

born

> >(to the same sire/dam) and both babies died within days, one of a

fractured

> >skull. This isn't so unsual and doesn't necessarily mean anyone at

> >Pretoria

> >did anything wrong, but it DOES speak to the experience (or lack thereof)

> >of

> >Pretoria over Limbe, of which since I've been familiar with them (circa

> >1995) 10 of the 12 gorillas arriving there in critical condition are

still

> >alive and thriving.

>

> By these numbers, Pretoria has lost 83%, not 75%, of their gorillas. I

> stand corrected. It's a shame that the remaining gorilla is still alone.

> Why haven't other zoos already sent captive-born gorillas to the National

> Zoo to correct this problem, or sent this last gorilla to live with other

> gorillas at another zoo? I don't know how or why the other adults died,

and

> I'm sure Pretoria did the best they could with their gorillas, but yes,

the

> point is that Limbe's experience and success with gorillas far surpasses

> that of the National Zoo of South Africa. To borrow Labuschagne's quote,

> he's right, it's not really comparing apples to apples. Pretoria has

> nothing like the experience and expertise with gorillas that Limbe has.

At

> the risk of repeating myself, I'll say again, if there were no facilities

in

> West Africa who could provide a good home and bright future for the

Taiping

> 4, I (and I am guessing others concerned about the Taiping 4) would be

open

> to the idea that South Africa is the next best choice. Of course they

> should remain in Africa at the very least. But in this case, Limbe has so

> much more in their pro column that Pretoria lacks: location in Cameroon,

> experience and success with orphaned gorillas, they don't engage in the

> trade of animals, there is the potential for protected re-release into a

> forest. They may have less space and less funding than Pretoria, but they

> aren't lacking in either of those either.

>

> Also, if the gorillas had been confiscated in Cameroon or Nigeria before

> they were smuggled to Malaysia, there is no doubt they would have been

sent

> to Limbe with little debate. Why should their destination be subject to

> debate now just because they happened to make it all the way to Malaysia

> undetected, until IPPL uncovered what happened? In my opinion, it's

because

> now they are in the hands of a zoo, and the zoo world doesn't want to let

go

> of them, no matter what the consequences. Malaysia, who it seems is

making

> the decisions in this case (why they get to I'll never understand), wants

to

> ensure they will get gorillas in the future. They know that will never

> happen if they go to Limbe, but I haven't heard that Pretoria is refusing

to

> send any future children of these gorillas to Malaysia. I'll probably

take

> a lot of flack for this one, but it seems to me that the zoos in this case

> see genes, money, and future babies when they look at these gorillas.

Maybe

> I'm too cynical, but what else could be the explanation for these zoos'

> refusal to acknowledge that Limbe has as much if not more expertise with

> gorillas, that the gorillas' home country is the best destination for

them,

> and that it is not acceptable for any zoo to engage in illegal activity

and

> contribute to the slaughter of endangered species, so *no* zoo should

> benefit, now or in the future? They seem to have forgotten all that was

> stolen from these gorillas--their families, their lives in the forest.

This

> can never be repayed to the gorillas in full, but if they go to Limbe

there

> is a chance it can be repayed in part.

>

> For the record, I don't hate zoos. I know some orangutans who have gone

> from a lab to zoos, and I am grateful that these zoos are providing them a

> better life. I do question some practices of zoos, certainly. However,

in

> this case I am championing Limbe because I've followed this case, looked

at

> all the possibilities for the gorillas as well as the far reaching

> consequences, and there is no doubt in my mind that Limbe is the right

place

> for the Taiping 4 to go.

>

> >

> >These gorillas belong to Cameroon. These gorillas should be returned to

> >Cameroon. Trying to scare people into thinking the gorillas will be

dumped

> >back in the wild and left to die is absurd and insulting and just shows a

> >lack of understanding of just what sanctuaries are all about.

>

> To the powers that be, I humbly ask--please send these gorillas, who have

> lost their mothers and suffered so much, *home* to Cameroon, where someday

> in the future they may again set foot in a real forest, where they will be

> protected from harm by their human caregivers, but allowed to live in

> relative freedom, which they so richly deserve.

>

> Best wishes,

> Jen

>

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