Taiping: Final question:

[Guest guest]

To everyone on these lists. I won't clog these further, but here's the

email I sent Mr. Dollinger, reducing all my worries into one question, which

he can or will not answer. Instead, he tells me and others to read up on

the CITES treaties ... hmmmm....

 

Jane

-

Jane T. R. Dewar

WAZA Director

Cc: Michael Hutchins AZA ; Doug Cress PASA ; Christian R. Schmidt ; Pisit

na Patalung ; Koen Brouwer ; Shirley McGreal IPPL new ; John Sellar CITES ;

Willem Wijnstekers ; CESD A ; Willie Labuschagne ; Karen Sausman ; Gordon

McGregor Reid ; Ed McAlister ; Bill Dennler ; Alex Rübel ; New Limbe

Monday, July 14, 2003 1:06 PM

Taiping 4: ONE question

 

 

Ok, Peter,

 

We've been going at this long enough, and from our past exchanges, I know

now you love to go into the minutia and ignore the bigger, tougher

questions, so how about one simple question to boil this all down, once and

for all:

 

WHAT'S TO STOP THIS FROM HAPPENING AGAIN?

a.. As long as there's a loop-hole in the CITES laws whereby the country

of confiscation can/does decide where animals go (as opposed to a

non-involved party),

b.. As long as no one bothers to verify signed CITES documents (which

have been seen again and again to be easily forged or signed off with false

information), especially in " transit " situations like this one,

c.. As long as animals end up in a zoo

d.. As long as zoos treat sanctuaries as rivals, instead of partners to

help succeed in closing them down, since all good sanctuaries share the same

goal of " going out of business, " unlike good zoos, which are and should be

in business for the long-term.

e.. And as long as no one is charged with any criminal deeds (besides a

slap on the wrist or denial of entry into a zoo association),

then I don't see what's to stop this travesty from happening again and

again. Not just with gorillas, but with other endangered animals, including

some wonderful and rare reptiles/ amphibians which are being depleted from

the jungles of Central/West Africa to enter the zoo/pet markets, which are

easier to smuggle, but whose demise would be just as serious.

 

Sanctuaries exist to take care of VICTIMS of the problems zoos should be

trying to help stop.

Does this suggest abused women shelters are responsible for aggressive

men? Should there be no shelters helping victims of abuse and instead all

funds and efforts being spent on educating the aggressors? Great, in

theory, but in practice you'll always have some slipping thru and the need

for a shelter - or you let the victims suffer or die, which seems to be the

only solution, to this way of thinking. Sanctuaries are shelters and if

zoos do their jobs properly, by educating and helping conserve, maybe the

shelters won't been needed.

 

Finally, Peter, you seem to be taking this personally, accusing me of

deliberately spreading 'untruths' as well as referring to Doug Cress'

statements about " traders, dealers, and all those involved in the

black-market animal trade " : This is probably not the best manner to pave way

for a future collaboration. "

 

This isn't personal, this is about the animals with no voice.

 

Jane

----- -

" WAZA Director " <waza.director

" Jane T. R. Dewar " <jdewar; " Mr. Law Taiping "

<lhd; " primfocus " <primfocus;

<gorillakeepers >; " Asian Animal Protection "

<aapn >; <alloprimate >; " CESD A "

<cesdewar

Cc: " Christian Schmidt EEP " <christian.schmidt.zoo;

" John Sellar CITES " <john.sellar

Tuesday, July 15, 2003 10:50 AM

Re: More thoughts on the latest Taiping 4 news story

 

 

> Jane just a few points:

>

> What is written in the media does not necessarily reflect what was

submitted

> by the National Zoo of South Africa. The information provided by Pretoria

> was absolutely clear and in no way misleading. Regarding breeding, they

> stated that their male sired two youngsters about 13 years ago which could

> not be raised. That's it.

>

> When WAZA suggested that Pretoria would be a suitable location for housing

> the animals, we did not exclude other options. To the contrary, we

> explicitely said " in case the gorillas would have to be confiscated and

> could not be returned to their country of origin " , It was not up to us to

> investigate all possible options outside our own constituency, and, for

the

> x. time, WAZA was not part of the decision making process. We are an

> international NGO interested in species conservation and animal welfare,

and

> we can make our services available to Governments. Whether or not the

> Governments wish to make use of our services or look for other options is

up

> to them.

>

> Regarding a cooperation with Sanctuaries, it is rather unfortunate that

the

> PASA Secretariat, in a recent press release, associated zoos with

" poachers,

> traders, dealers, and all those involved in the black-market animal

trade " .

> I have to make it very clear that it was not the WAZA side which started

> building up frontlines and talking about loosers and winners. As a matter

of

> fact, many of our members financially support sanctuaries or other rescue

> centres. The National Zoo of South Africa will establish a gorilla

> conservation fund which will be subjected to official auditing,. The

> auditing reports will be made available to CITES. This Fund could be

applied

> to a variety of projects in the range states. Sanctuaries could be

partners

> in such exercises, however, choosing a partner who insults you all the

time

> may not be the first priority ...

>

> As it seems that you count me among the " more dubious colleagues in the

zoo

> world, who feel this kind of situation is " normal " or ok, as long as

> gorillas are added to the captive zoo population " , I would like to state

> that WAZA and myself care very much about loopholes in the implementation

> of CITES, and that we do whatever we can to support the CITES Secretariat

> in its efforts to improve the situation. This does not necessarily mean

that

> I have to spend another few hours answering all your questions and

> discussing your proposals. You could find, however, a number of answers by

> reading the Convention, some of the relevant Resolutions and

interpretative

> books, something I suggested to you already last fall.

>

> Regards

> Peter

>

> -

> " Jane T. R. Dewar " <jdewar

> " Mr. Law Taiping " <lhd; " primfocus "

> <primfocus; <gorillakeepers >; " Asian Animal

> Protection " <aapn >; <alloprimate >; " CESD A "

> <cesdewar

> Cc: " Christian Schmidt EEP " <christian.schmidt.zoo;

> " WAZA Director " <waza.director; " John Sellar CITES "

> <john.sellar

> Tuesday, July 15, 2003 3:30 PM

> More thoughts on the latest Taiping 4 news story

>

>

> > This article is from The Star Online (http://thestar.com.my)

> > URL:

> >

>

http://thestar.com.my/lifestyle/story.asp?file=/2003/7/15/features/5804992 & s

> > ec=features

> >

> > Some interesting twists appear in the above news story dated 15Jul03,

> > including:

> >

> > 1. Reiteration of a point I made in a previous email, about claims that

> > Pretoria Zoo has had a successful gorilla breeding program. This is

> false,

> > unless you think 3 out of 4 gorillas dying in the past 10 years is

> > " successful " . I've since learned there may have been up to 2 gorilla

> births

> > in the 1980's, but the gorillas did not survive infancy, per the

> > international gorilla studbook. Hardly what I'd call " successful " by

any

> > standards....

> >

> > 2. Taiping still feels it's entitled to future offspring of the Taiping

4

> > from Pretoria, which could be part of the " bilateral agreement " referred

> to

> > in these news reports. Will this agreement be made public, or will the

 

> > officials keep this secret, to avoid having tough questions challenge

> them?

> >

> > And one of my predictions is already taking place, as now South Africa

is

> > claiming to " rescue " these gorillas, as history is being re-written:

> >

> > " SA rescues kidnapped gorillas

> > http://www.worldonline.co.za/news/news_center_030709.630540.html "

> >

> > So far I haven't heard from the director of WAZA or any CITES officials

> > regarding the 10 points raised in my previous email, except an email

> > refuting that there were any behind-the-scenes dealings (my point #4) by

> any

> > zoo. Apparently, I was mistaken and Pretoria did NOT solicit these

> > gorillas until the director of WAZA suggested they do so. According to

Mr.

> > Dollinger in an email to me and several others 14Jul03:

> >

> > " WAZA recommended to the CITES Secretariat (Geneva) the

> > National Zoo of South Africa as a suitable place " in case the gorillas

> would

> > have to be confiscated and could not be returned to their country of

> > origin. " This recommendation was made in consultation with the

> International

> > Gorilla Studbook Keeper. At our request, the National Zoo made a formal

> > submission, ... "

> >

> > So I stand corrected on this detail, but the fact remains, the Zoo

Gorilla

> > Studbook Keeper and the head of the WAZA were behind the application of

> > Pretoria to get these gorillas, dismissing the Sanctuary solution, using

> the

> > financial stability and " power " of the zoo world as an easy way to sway

> the

> > Malaysian officials, who would naturally be " concerned " with sending

> > gorillas to a sanctuary struggling due to lack of support (from the zoo

> > world, ironically).

> >

> > The more I look into this case, the more discouraged I am. I have

> wonderful

> > friends and colleagues in the zoo world, who are being painted with the

> same

> > tainted brush as One even claimed if these gorillas didn't enter

> > the captive gene population, the future of all gorillas is in doubt, sin

ce

> > sanctuaries don't deliberately breed (using birth control, not

> > castration/sterilization as suggested to inflame this point). If

> > sanctuaries and zoos would work TOGETHER, perhaps a viable and realistic

> > solution could be found, with the animals' benefiting.

> >

> > But it still looks like the animals, with no voice, are at the mercy of

> the

> > people with agendas of their own.

> >

> > Sigh.

> >

> > Jane Dewar