Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 Sorry, these people picked on me all the time on the other group (VegansUncensored), they even laughed at me when I had been in hospital with second hand smoke related chest trouble when I was pregnant, me and my baby could have died and they still thought it was bad of me to report the taxi driver for smoking in his cab and get him fired from his job. They spell my name like this "Leslie" all the time so I thought one of them was possibly here in disguise as you. I don't mean to victimise you, I understand you are really who you say. Lesley B. B. [ibyza2001]20 August 2002 15:55 Subject: none no I am just an analphabet from Spain, no need to victimize all the time darling >"Lesley Dove" > > >RE: Re: I agree but >Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:52:26 +0100 > > >Yeah right next time I'll just let someone kill me... > >Lesley NOT Leslie (you're not MrBig or Edith under an alias are you?) > > > B. B. [ibyza2001] > 20 August 2002 13:32 > > RE: Re: I agree but > > > As a non violent a vegan should be, Leslie; violence is never the issue, >violence is never the answer NO MATTER WHO STARTED WHAT, THAT IS THE TRUE >VEGAN ESSENCE, peace > > > > >"Lesley Dove" > > > > > >RE: Re: I agree but > >Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:22:42 +0100 > > > > > >I've never punched a smoker for smoking, but I was punched for simply > >complaining about it, how can I be the one who is way over the top? > >It was hardly reasonable that I was punched, I don't think they needed >much > >provocation, in fact the woman who punched me was not the one I had >argued > >with, it was a man who got her to hit me, he was the one I complained to >for > >smoking. They are the people who need some anger management not me Cathy, > >can you not see that? What they did was over the top. > >It won't happen again if I learn some self-defence because I will be able >to > >fight back before the first punch hits me, asthma attakcs permitting of > >course. > > > >Lesley > > > > > > cathyjupp [cj] > > 20 August 2002 11:23 > > > > Re: I agree but > > > > > > Lesley - I'm serious here - go to your doctor and ask for counselling > > or some other form of anger management assistance. You are in > > serious danger of harming yourself (or someone else). You have > > already been punched in the face once and I can see it happening > > again, or worse, if you don't do something to manage your attitude. > > It is well over the top. You see yourself as taking reasonable steps > > to protect yourself, but I think your attitude has gone *way* past > > that. > > > > Cathy > > > > > > > > > > , "Lesley Dove" wrote: > > > > > > I'm getting almost past the stage of being peaceful with smokers, > > I'm even > > > considering getting a pepper/tear gas spray and to hell with the > > fact that > > > it is illegal in the UK (we have very little right to protect > > ourselves > > > effectively from violent antisocial freaks in this country), to > > spray on > > > smokers when they make me ill and are refusing to stub it out. If > > they are > > > unreasonable, it's just a matter of self-defence, not attack as I > > see it > > > since they are hurting me. They need to know the pain they are > > causing and > > > maybe mace would just give them some idea of how second hand smoke > > > inhalation feels to a sensitive person. > > > > > > I am considering a violent solution to the assault on my lungs in > > future > > > because I was punched in the face for complaining about a smoker > > the other > > > day so no more Mrs Peaceful Dove after the way I have suffered. I > > wouldn't > > > carry a gun or a knife though, that would be taking it too far! I > > had a bad > > > headache and blurred vision from being punched and had a bruised > > eyebrow and > > > forehead. I was feeling so ill for days because the smoke had > > already caused > > > me breathing trouble when I complained so I was wheezy for ages. My > > attacker > > > has not been caught, the police are pretty hopeless. I will of > > course press > > > charges if she is caught. Considering the circumstances that I was > > sitting > > > down struggling to breathe when I was punched it was a particularly > > cowardly > > > and callous attack. It was obvious to this woman that I was not in a > > > position to fight back. I ended up behaving badly on the other > > vegan > > > group just very soon after the attack and I think I was in a > > slightly > > > confused state at the time, so that the balance of my mind was > > disturbed, > > > but I still got banned from the group. > > > > > > Tobacco is not really an addiction, I don't believe in it as an > > addiction > > > anyway. I think smokers just say that as an excuse, but it's all in > > their > > > minds and it's just a habit that people choose to do because some > > people > > > like to annoy other people, that is why youngsters start usually, > > to rebel > > > and annoy someone, that is the true nature of the smoker. My dad > > and my gran > > > had no problem quitting when I was young, and there were no > > nicotine chewing > > > gums or patches then (people are spoilt these days!), they just > > quit on > > > their own because they realised it was a deadly habit. I was proud > > of them > > > both. Nowadays smokers whinge about how hard it is to quit, I'm > > sick of > > > that, they don't know how lucky they are to get so much help on the > > health > > > service, and to get their self-inflicted illnesses treated. I also > > don't > > > think people like George Best and Larry Hagman (alcohol abusers) > > deserve new > > > livers, if they don't care about their own that they are born with, > > and > > > drink as much as thery did they should be low priority for > > transplants, I > > > think, after children and people who could not have prevented their > > illness. > > > The innocent victims should be helped more, the woman who hit me > > had most > > > likely been drinking anyway, so much mindless violence is alcohol > > related, > > > that has innocent victims too. > > > > > > I'm sorry that dairy made you ill, I'm glad it didn't affect me at > > all that > > > way since I was already suffering from the smoke, but I guess we > > all have > > > our own unique set of sensitivities and allergies. I can eat > > anything which > > > most people class as food without any trouble, even as a meat-eater > > I never > > > had constipation or any food allergies. I just choose veganism on > > ethical > > > grounds. > > > > > > I think a food allergy would be easier to manage than a tobacco > > smoke > > > allergy because many people think I am faking it. That is hard to > > handle. > > > I've heard of someone else whose doctor said he was more likely > > allergic to > > > cats or mold, when he complained that tobacco smoke affected him > > badly, I > > > don't know why doctors should be so sceptical about this problem > > and try to > > > blame other things. > > > > > > I even got accused behind my back of being "unsociable" in one > > animal rights > > > group because I would not go in the smoky pub after protests with > > them, how > > > unfair is that? They knew I couldn't bear being around smoke, and > > were not > > > very understanding of my sensitivity. > > > It's very inconsistent that they were against making animals smoke > > in lab > > > experimenrts but wanted me to be forced to breathe in secondary > > smoke as a > > > prerequisite to being a fully accepted one of their crowd. I guess > > social > > > coercion to accept something damaging and unhealthy is OK with some > > AR > > > people, because it's not actual force. I don't see it as the right > > way to > > > treat one of your supposed friends. > > > > > > Lesley > > > > > > > > > B. B. [ibyza2001@h...] > > > 19 August 2002 18:35 > > > > > > I agree but > > > > > > > > > I agree fully that we can not go to a demo. and smoke, true! > > > > > > But many of us have been sick on dairy, egg and milk (I had no > > smokers > > > around luckily in that remote place I lived in in that times) > > > > > > This can be fully demonstrated too, so first danger tabacoo OK > > > > > > 2nd meet > > > > > > 3rd dairy & eggs > > > > > > But I guess it depends on individuals' reaction and on beeing > > coherent, > > > LET'S EVOLUTE & PUT A PECEFUL END TO SMOKE ADDICTION > > > > > > > > > > > > >"Lesley Dove" > > > > > > > > > > > >RE: Re: milk sucksssssssss > > > >Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:26:19 +0100 > > > > > > > > > > > >Is it worth AR people smoking though if the smokers on demos and > > marches > > > put > > > >people who are sensitive like me off going? It makes me so ill, > > that I am > > > >considering not going on a march again if I have to be > > surrounded by > > > >cigarette smoke, I felt very sick on the demo in London and > > after outside > > > >the pub, some of it might have been the car fumes in London but > > > experience > > > >has taught me that tobacco smoke affects me worse! I'm nmo use > > to anyone > > > >I believe demos and protests for the animals should be strictly > > > non-smoking > > > >affairs, it creates a very bad impression on the public to have > > people > > > >smoking. We have to present a nice clean living image. > > > > > > > >Dairy cows have no reason to feel let down by me, I am an > > ethical vegan > > > and > > > >will always promote veganism on animal rights grounds but I will > > not make > > > >what I believe to be false claims about giving up dairy leading > > to > > > improved > > > >health and less mucus for instance, because in my experience it > > made no > > > >difference to my health except mentally to my conscience and > > peace of > > > mind. > > > >My mucus and chest and head problems remained until I was able > > to live > > > away > > > >from second hand smoke. > > > > > > > >Lesley > > > > > > > > > > > > cathyjupp [cj@r...] > > > > 19 August 2002 13:29 > > > > > > > > Re: milk sucksssssssss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BUT I will > > > > > speak out when I see the vegan movement undermining anti- > > tobacco > > > > campaigning > > > > > by overstating the role of dairy in cancers. > > > > > > > > That would be overstating IN YOUR OPINION, would it? I'm sure > > that > > > > dairy cows everywhere would like to thank you. > > > > > > > > Their veganism will not protect them > > > > > from the harm they are doing to themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only vegans I know personally aren't vegan for their > > health, but > > > > for the animals' (I know a lot of Americals are, and some > > British of > > > > course - I just haven't met any personally). I don't think that > > > > anyone would reasonably argue that smoking was not bad for > > them - but > > > > some people think it worth it. Veganism has little or nothing > > to do > > > > with it. > > > > > > > > Is this going to turn into another anti-smoking forum? Shall I > > leave > > > > now? > > > > > > > > Cathy > > > > > > > > ps Hallo everyone who knows me from before. Been lurking for a > > > > while to see how everyone is and what's going on here - never > > > > intended to post because I spend far too much time at the lists > > when > > > > I get going, but you know how it is sometimes........ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ibizkus [ibyza2001@h...] > > > > > 19 August 2002 11:43 > > > > > > > > > > milk sucksssssssss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got... Breast Cancer? Prostate Cancer? Crohn's Disease? Heart > > > > > Disease Sick Kids? Osteoporosis Fat? Veal? Fat? Zits? Gas? > > Mucus? > > > > > Beer? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Click here for the truth about dairy products and strong > > bones. > > > > > > > > > > MILK SUCKS... > > > > > FOR THE ANIMALS: > > > > > Corporate-owned factories where cows are warehoused in huge > > sheds > > > > and > > > > > treated like milk machines have replaced most small family > > farms. > > > > > With genetic manipulation and intensive production > > technologies, > > > > it > > > > > is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk > > a > > > > day— > > > > > 10 times more than they would produce in nature. To keep milk > > > > > production as high as possible, farmers artificially > > inseminate > > > > cows > > > > > every year. Growth hormones and unnatural milking schedules > > cause > > > > > dairy cows' udders to become painful and so heavy that they > > > > sometimes > > > > > drag on the ground, resulting in frequent infections and > > overuse > > > > of > > > > > antibiotics. Cows -- like all mammals -- make milk to feed > > their > > > > own > > > > > babies -- not humans. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Male calves, the "byproducts" of the dairy industry, endure 14 > > > > to17 > > > > > weeks of torment in veal crates so small that they can't even > > turn > > > > > around. Female calves often replace their old, worn-out > > mothers, > > > > or > > > > > are slaughtered soon after birth for the rennet in their > > stomachs > > > > (an > > > > > ingredient of most commercial cheeses). They are often kept in > > > > tiny > > > > > crates or tethered in stalls for the first few months of their > > > > lives, > > > > > only to grow up to become "milk machines" like their mothers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FOR THE ENVIRONMENT: > > > > > Cow's milk is an inefficient food source. Cows, like humans, > > > > expend > > > > > the majority of their food intake simply leading their lives. > > It > > > > > takes a great deal of grain and other foodstuffs cycled > > through > > > > cows > > > > > to produce a small amount of milk. And not only is milk a > > waste of > > > > > energy and water, the production of milk is also a disastrous > > > > source > > > > > of water pollution. A dairy cow produces 120 pounds of waste > > every > > > > > day -- equal to that of two dozen people, but with no toilets, > > > > > sewers, or treatment plants. > > > > > > > > > > In Lancaster County, Pa., manure from dairy cows is > > destroying the > > > > > Chesapeake Bay, and in California, which produces one-fifth > > of the > > > > > country's total supply of milk, the manure from dairy farms > > has > > > > > poisoned vast expanses of underground water, rivers, and > > streams. > > > > In > > > > > the Central Valley of California, the cows produce as much > > > > excrement > > > > > as a city of 21 million people, and even a smallish farm of > > 200 > > > > cows > > > > > will produce as much nitrogen as in the sewage from a > > community of > > > > > 5,000 to 10,000 people, according to a U.S. Senate report on > > > > animal > > > > > waste. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FOR YOUR HEALTH: > > > > > Dairy products are a health hazard. They contain no fiber or > > > > complex > > > > > carbohydrates and are laden with saturated fat and > > cholesterol. > > > > They > > > > > are contaminated with cow's blood and pus and are frequently > > > > > contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics. Dairy > > > > > products are linked to allergies, constipation, obesity, heart > > > > > disease, cancer, and other diseases. > > > > > > > > > > The late Dr. Benjamin Spock, America's leading authority on > > child > > > > > care, spoke out against feeding cow's milk to children, > > saying it > > > > can > > > > > cause anemia, allergies, and insulin-dependent diabetes and > > in the > > > > > long term, will set kids up for obesity and heart disease, > > > > America's > > > > > number one cause of death. > > > > > > > > > > And dairy products may actually cause osteoporosis, not > > prevent > > > > it, > > > > > since their high-protein content leaches calcium from the > > body. > > > > > Population studies, backed up by a groundbreaking Harvard > > study of > > > > > more than 75,000 nurses, suggest that drinking milk can > > actually > > > > > cause osteoporosis. Find out more by visiting our links page. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WHAT YOU CAN DO: > > > > > According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the average > > > > American > > > > > consumes more than 550 pounds of dairy products annually, > > which > > > > is 40 > > > > > percent of the bulk of the food we eat. Click here to see an > > > > > illustration of the "Food Pyramid" which is representative of > > > > actual > > > > > American eating habits. > > > > > > > > > > Give the bottle the boot! Instead, try delicious soy or rice > > milk, > > > > > soy cheese, Tofutti ice cream, and tofu sour cream and cream > > > > cheese. > > > > > All are widely available at health food stores and many > > > > supermarkets. > > > > > Click here for information on adopting a dairy-free diet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In The News > > > > > > > > > > Anit-milk ad 'a cheap point at the expense of Catholics' (The > > > > > Vancouver Sun) > > > > > > > > > > Factory Dairies Invade Wisconsin (Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel) > > > > > > > > > > White Poison: The Horrors of Milk(Times of India) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "There's no reason to drink cow's milk at any time in your > > life. > > > > It > > > > > was designed for calves, not humans, and we should all stop > > > > drinking > > > > > it today." > > > > > -Dr. Frank A. Oski > > > > > Former Director of Pediatrics, Johns Hopkins University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals > > > > > 501 Front St., Norfolk, VA 23510; 757-622-PETA > > > > > MilkSucks.comLiving Dairy-FreeFind Out MoreFree Vegetarian > > > > Starter > > > > > PackVegNow.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 wots an analphabet?? " B. B. " <ibyza2001 wrote: > >no I am just an analphabet from Spain, no need to victimize all the time darling > > > > gt; " Lesley Dove " gt; gt; gt;RE: Re: I agree but gt;Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:52:26 +0100 gt; gt; gt;Yeah right next time I'll just let someone kill me... gt; gt;Lesley NOT Leslie (you're not MrBig or Edith under an alias are you?) gt; gt; gt; B. B. [ibyza2001] gt; 20 August 2002 13:32 gt; To: gt; RE: Re: I agree but gt; gt; gt; As a non violent a vegan should be, Leslie; violence is never the issue, gt;violence is never the answer NO MATTER WHO STARTED WHAT, THAT IS THE TRUE gt;VEGAN ESSENCE, peace gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; " Lesley Dove " gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt;RE: Re: I agree but gt; gt;Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:22:42 +0100 gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt;I've never punched a smoker for smoking, but I was punched for simply gt; gt;complaining about it, how can I be the one who is way over the top? gt; gt;It was hardly reasonable that I was punched, I don't think they needed gt;much gt; gt;provocation, in fact the woman who punched me was not the one I had gt;argued gt; gt;with, it was a man who got her to hit me, he was the one I complained to gt;for gt; gt;smoking. They are the people who need some anger management not me Cathy, gt; gt;can you not see that? What they did was over the top. gt; gt;It won't happen again if I learn some self-defence because I will be able gt;to gt; gt;fight back before the first punch hits me, asthma attakcs permitting of gt; gt;course. gt; gt; gt; gt;Lesley gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; cathyjupp [cj] gt; gt; 20 August 2002 11:23 gt; gt; To: gt; gt; Re: I agree but gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Lesley - I'm serious here - go to your doctor and ask for counselling gt; gt; or some other form of anger management assistance. You are in gt; gt; serious danger of harming yourself (or someone else). You have gt; gt; already been punched in the face once and I can see it happening gt; gt; again, or worse, if you don't do something to manage your attitude. gt; gt; It is well over the top. You see yourself as taking reasonable steps gt; gt; to protect yourself, but I think your attitude has gone *way* past gt; gt; that. gt; gt; gt; gt; Cathy gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; --- In , " Lesley Dove " wrote: gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; I'm getting almost past the stage of being peaceful with smokers, gt; gt; I'm even gt; gt; gt; considering getting a pepper/tear gas spray and to hell with the gt; gt; fact that gt; gt; gt; it is illegal in the UK (we have very little right to protect gt; gt; ourselves gt; gt; gt; effectively from violent antisocial freaks in this country), to gt; gt; spray on gt; gt; gt; smokers when they make me ill and are refusing to stub it out. If gt; gt; they are gt; gt; gt; unreasonable, it's just a matter of self-defence, not attack as I gt; gt; see it gt; gt; gt; since they are hurting me. They need to know the pain they are gt; gt; causing and gt; gt; gt; maybe mace would just give them some idea of how second hand smoke gt; gt; gt; inhalation feels to a sensitive person. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; I am considering a violent solution to the assault on my lungs in gt; gt; future gt; gt; gt; because I was punched in the face for complaining about a smoker gt; gt; the other gt; gt; gt; day so no more Mrs Peaceful Dove after the way I have suffered. I gt; gt; wouldn't gt; gt; gt; carry a gun or a knife though, that would be taking it too far! I gt; gt; had a bad gt; gt; gt; headache and blurred vision from being punched and had a bruised gt; gt; eyebrow and gt; gt; gt; forehead. I was feeling so ill for days because the smoke had gt; gt; already caused gt; gt; gt; me breathing trouble when I complained so I was wheezy for ages. My gt; gt; attacker gt; gt; gt; has not been caught, the police are pretty hopeless. I will of gt; gt; course press gt; gt; gt; charges if she is caught. Considering the circumstances that I was gt; gt; sitting gt; gt; gt; down struggling to breathe when I was punched it was a particularly gt; gt; cowardly gt; gt; gt; and callous attack. It was obvious to this woman that I was not in a gt; gt; gt; position to fight back. I ended up behaving badly on the other gt; gt; vegan gt; gt; gt; group just very soon after the attack and I think I was in a gt; gt; slightly gt; gt; gt; confused state at the time, so that the balance of my mind was gt; gt; disturbed, gt; gt; gt; but I still got banned from the group. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Tobacco is not really an addiction, I don't believe in it as an gt; gt; addiction gt; gt; gt; anyway. I think smokers just say that as an excuse, but it's all in gt; gt; their gt; gt; gt; minds and it's just a habit that people choose to do because some gt; gt; people gt; gt; gt; like to annoy other people, that is why youngsters start usually, gt; gt; to rebel gt; gt; gt; and annoy someone, that is the true nature of the smoker. My dad gt; gt; and my gran gt; gt; gt; had no problem quitting when I was young, and there were no gt; gt; nicotine chewing gt; gt; gt; gums or patches then (people are spoilt these days!), they just gt; gt; quit on gt; gt; gt; their own because they realised it was a deadly habit. I was proud gt; gt; of them gt; gt; gt; both. Nowadays smokers whinge about how hard it is to quit, I'm gt; gt; sick of gt; gt; gt; that, they don't know how lucky they are to get so much help on the gt; gt; health gt; gt; gt; service, and to get their self-inflicted illnesses treated. I also gt; gt; don't gt; gt; gt; think people like George Best and Larry Hagman (alcohol abusers) gt; gt; deserve new gt; gt; gt; livers, if they don't care about their own that they are born with, gt; gt; and gt; gt; gt; drink as much as thery did they should be low priority for gt; gt; transplants, I gt; gt; gt; think, after children and people who could not have prevented their gt; gt; illness. gt; gt; gt; The innocent victims should be helped more, the woman who hit me gt; gt; had most gt; gt; gt; likely been drinking anyway, so much mindless violence is alcohol gt; gt; related, gt; gt; gt; that has innocent victims too. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; I'm sorry that dairy made you ill, I'm glad it didn't affect me at gt; gt; all that gt; gt; gt; way since I was already suffering from the smoke, but I guess we gt; gt; all have gt; gt; gt; our own unique set of sensitivities and allergies. I can eat gt; gt; anything which gt; gt; gt; most people class as food without any trouble, even as a meat-eater gt; gt; I never gt; gt; gt; had constipation or any food allergies. I just choose veganism on gt; gt; ethical gt; gt; gt; grounds. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; I think a food allergy would be easier to manage than a tobacco gt; gt; smoke gt; gt; gt; allergy because many people think I am faking it. That is hard to gt; gt; handle. gt; gt; gt; I've heard of someone else whose doctor said he was more likely gt; gt; allergic to gt; gt; gt; cats or mold, when he complained that tobacco smoke affected him gt; gt; badly, I gt; gt; gt; don't know why doctors should be so sceptical about this problem gt; gt; and try to gt; gt; gt; blame other things. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; I even got accused behind my back of being " unsociable " in one gt; gt; animal rights gt; gt; gt; group because I would not go in the smoky pub after protests with gt; gt; them, how gt; gt; gt; unfair is that? They knew I couldn't bear being around smoke, and gt; gt; were not gt; gt; gt; very understanding of my sensitivity. gt; gt; gt; It's very inconsistent that they were against making animals smoke gt; gt; in lab gt; gt; gt; experimenrts but wanted me to be forced to breathe in secondary gt; gt; smoke as a gt; gt; gt; prerequisite to being a fully accepted one of their crowd. I guess gt; gt; social gt; gt; gt; coercion to accept something damaging and unhealthy is OK with some gt; gt; AR gt; gt; gt; people, because it's not actual force. I don't see it as the right gt; gt; way to gt; gt; gt; treat one of your supposed friends. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Lesley gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; B. B. [ibyza2001@h...] gt; gt; gt; 19 August 2002 18:35 gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; I agree but gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; I agree fully that we can not go to a demo. and smoke, true! gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; But many of us have been sick on dairy, egg and milk (I had no gt; gt; smokers gt; gt; gt; around luckily in that remote place I lived in in that times) gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; This can be fully demonstrated too, so first danger tabacoo OK gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; 2nd meet gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; 3rd dairyamp;eggs gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; But I guess it depends on individuals' reaction and on beeing gt; gt; coherent, gt; gt; gt; LET'S EVOLUTE amp; PUT A PECEFUL END TO SMOKE ADDICTION gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; " Lesley Dove " gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt;RE: Re: milk sucksssssssss gt; gt; gt; gt;Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:26:19 +0100 gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt;Is it worth AR people smoking though if the smokers on demos and gt; gt; marches gt; gt; gt; put gt; gt; gt; gt;people who are sensitive like me off going? It makes me so ill, gt; gt; that I am gt; gt; gt; gt;considering not going on a march again if I have to be gt; gt; surrounded by gt; gt; gt; gt;cigarette smoke, I felt very sick on the demo in London and gt; gt; after outside gt; gt; gt; gt;the pub, some of it might have been the car fumes in London but gt; gt; gt; experience gt; gt; gt; gt;has taught me that tobacco smoke affects me worse! I'm nmo use gt; gt; to anyone gt; gt; gt; gt;I believe demos and protests for the animals should be strictly gt; gt; gt; non-smoking gt; gt; gt; gt;affairs, it creates a very bad impression on the public to have gt; gt; people gt; gt; gt; gt;smoking. We have to present a nice clean living image. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt;Dairy cows have no reason to feel let down by me, I am an gt; gt; ethical vegan gt; gt; gt; and gt; gt; gt; gt;will always promote veganism on animal rights grounds but I will gt; gt; not make gt; gt; gt; gt;what I believe to be false claims about giving up dairy leading gt; gt; to gt; gt; gt; improved gt; gt; gt; gt;health and less mucus for instance, because in my experience it gt; gt; made no gt; gt; gt; gt;difference to my health except mentally to my conscience and gt; gt; peace of gt; gt; gt; mind. gt; gt; gt; gt;My mucus and chest and head problems remained until I was able gt; gt; to live gt; gt; gt; away gt; gt; gt; gt;from second hand smoke. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt;Lesley gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; -----Original Message----- gt; gt; gt; gt; cathyjupp [cj@r...] gt; gt; gt; gt; 19 August 2002 13:29 gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Re: milk sucksssssssss gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; BUT I will gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; speak out when I see the vegan movement undermining anti- gt; gt; tobacco gt; gt; gt; gt; campaigning gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; by overstating the role of dairy in cancers. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; That would be overstating IN YOUR OPINION, would it? I'm sure gt; gt; that gt; gt; gt; gt; dairy cows everywhere would like to thank you. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Their veganism will not protect them gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; from the harm they are doing to themselves. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; The only vegans I know personally aren't vegan for their gt; gt; health, but gt; gt; gt; gt; for the animals' (I know a lot of Americals are, and some gt; gt; British of gt; gt; gt; gt; course - I just haven't met any personally). I don't think that gt; gt; gt; gt; anyone would reasonably argue that smoking was not bad for gt; gt; them - but gt; gt; gt; gt; some people think it worth it. Veganism has little or nothing gt; gt; to do gt; gt; gt; gt; with it. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Is this going to turn into another anti-smoking forum? Shall I gt; gt; leave gt; gt; gt; gt; now? gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Cathy gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; ps Hallo everyone who knows me from before. Been lurking for a gt; gt; gt; gt; while to see how everyone is and what's going on here - never gt; gt; gt; gt; intended to post because I spend far too much time at the lists gt; gt; when gt; gt; gt; gt; I get going, but you know how it is sometimes........ gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; ibizkus [ibyza2001@h...] gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; 19 August 2002 11:43 gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; milk sucksssssssss gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Got... Breast Cancer? Prostate Cancer? Crohn's Disease? Heart gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Disease Sick Kids? Osteoporosis Fat? Veal? Fat? Zits? Gas? gt; gt; Mucus? gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Beer? gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Click here for the truth about dairy products and strong gt; gt; bones. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; MILK SUCKS... gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; FOR THE ANIMALS: gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Corporate-owned factories where cows are warehoused in huge gt; gt; sheds gt; gt; gt; gt; and gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; treated like milk machines have replaced most small family gt; gt; farms. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; With genetic manipulation and intensive production gt; gt; technologies, gt; gt; gt; gt; it gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk gt; gt; a gt; gt; gt; gt; day— gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; 10 times more than they would produce in nature. To keep milk gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; production as high as possible, farmers artificially gt; gt; inseminate gt; gt; gt; gt; cows gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; every year. Growth hormones and unnatural milking schedules gt; gt; cause gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; dairy cows' udders to become painful and so heavy that they gt; gt; gt; gt; sometimes gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; drag on the ground, resulting in frequent infections and gt; gt; overuse gt; gt; gt; gt; of gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; antibiotics. Cows -- like all mammals -- make milk to feed gt; gt; their gt; gt; gt; gt; own gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; babies -- not humans. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Male calves, the " byproducts " of the dairy industry, endure 14 gt; gt; gt; gt; to17 gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; weeks of torment in veal crates so small that they can't even gt; gt; turn gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; around. Female calves often replace their old, worn-out gt; gt; mothers, gt; gt; gt; gt; or gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; are slaughtered soon after birth for the rennet in their gt; gt; stomachs gt; gt; gt; gt; (an gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; ingredient of most commercial cheeses). They are often kept in gt; gt; gt; gt; tiny gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; crates or tethered in stalls for the first few months of their gt; gt; gt; gt; lives, gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; only to grow up to become " milk machines " like their mothers. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; FOR THE ENVIRONMENT: gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Cow's milk is an inefficient food source. Cows, like humans, gt; gt; gt; gt; expend gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; the majority of their food intake simply leading their lives. gt; gt; It gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; takes a great deal of grain and other foodstuffs cycled gt; gt; through gt; gt; gt; gt; cows gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; to produce a small amount of milk. And not only is milk a gt; gt; waste of gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; energy and water, the production of milk is also a disastrous gt; gt; gt; gt; source gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; of water pollution. A dairy cow produces 120 pounds of waste gt; gt; every gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; day -- equal to that of two dozen people, but with no toilets, gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; sewers, or treatment plants. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; In Lancaster County, Pa., manure from dairy cows is gt; gt; destroying the gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Chesapeake Bay, and in California, which produces one-fifth gt; gt; of the gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; country's total supply of milk, the manure from dairy farms gt; gt; has gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; poisoned vast expanses of underground water, rivers, and gt; gt; streams. gt; gt; gt; gt; In gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; the Central Valley of California, the cows produce as much gt; gt; gt; gt; excrement gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; as a city of 21 million people, and even a smallish farm of gt; gt; 200 gt; gt; gt; gt; cows gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; will produce as much nitrogen as in the sewage from a gt; gt; community of gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; 5,000 to 10,000 people, according to a U.S. Senate report on gt; gt; gt; gt; animal gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; waste. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; FOR YOUR HEALTH: gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Dairy products are a health hazard. They contain no fiber or gt; gt; gt; gt; complex gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; carbohydrates and are laden with saturated fat and gt; gt; cholesterol. gt; gt; gt; gt; They gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; are contaminated with cow's blood and pus and are frequently gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics. Dairy gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; products are linked to allergies, constipation, obesity, heart gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; disease, cancer, and other diseases. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; The late Dr. Benjamin Spock, America's leading authority on gt; gt; child gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; care, spoke out against feeding cow's milk to children, gt; gt; saying it gt; gt; gt; gt; can gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; cause anemia, allergies, and insulin-dependent diabetes and gt; gt; in the gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; long term, will set kids up for obesity and heart disease, gt; gt; gt; gt; America's gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; number one cause of death. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; And dairy products may actually cause osteoporosis, not gt; gt; prevent gt; gt; gt; gt; it, gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; since their high-protein content leaches calcium from the gt; gt; body. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Population studies, backed up by a groundbreaking Harvard gt; gt; study of gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; more than 75,000 nurses, suggest that drinking milk can gt; gt; actually gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; cause osteoporosis. Find out more by visiting our links page. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; WHAT YOU CAN DO: gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the average gt; gt; gt; gt; American gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; consumes more than 550 pounds of dairy products annually, gt; gt; which gt; gt; gt; gt; is 40 gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; percent of the bulk of the food we eat. Click here to see an gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; illustration of the " Food Pyramid " which is representative of gt; gt; gt; gt; actual gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; American eating habits. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Give the bottle the boot! Instead, try delicious soy or rice gt; gt; milk, gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; soy cheese, Tofutti ice cream, and tofu sour cream and cream gt; gt; gt; gt; cheese. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; All are widely available at health food stores and many gt; gt; gt; gt; supermarkets. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Click here for information on adopting a dairy-free diet. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; In The News gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Anit-milk ad 'a cheap point at the expense of Catholics' (The gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Vancouver Sun) gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Factory Dairies Invade Wisconsin (Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel) gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; White Poison: The Horrors of Milk(Times of India) gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; " There's no reason to drink cow's milk at any time in your gt; gt; life. gt; gt; gt; gt; It gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; was designed for calves, not humans, and we should all stop gt; gt; gt; gt; drinking gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; it today. " gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; -Dr. Frank A. Oski gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Former Director of Pediatrics, Johns Hopkins University gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; 501 Front St., Norfolk, VA 23510; 757-622-PETA gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; MilkSucks.comLiving Dairy-FreeFind Out MoreFree Vegetarian gt; gt; gt; gt; Starter gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; PackVegNow.com gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Groups Sponsor gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; To send an email to - gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2003 Report Share Posted September 19, 2003 === Questions about you === 1/ What is your name (or what do you like to be called)? James 2/ How old are you (a rough idea will do)? 23 3/ Do you know many vegans in real life? six 4/ How long have you been a vegan, and how long vegetarian before that? vegan for 4 months vegetarian for three years 5/ Why did you become vegetarian/vegan (if you are neither it would be useful to explain why you joined this list)? it seemed to me that veganism was a logical extension of socialism in that it better uses the worlds resources. as well as compassion for animals although this i must admit is secondary. === Questions about your area === 6/ Whereabouts do you live? swindon 7/ How good a place is it for vegans? awful, that said we do have a reasonable wholefood store === Questions for fun === 8/ Which is your favourite type of bean? cannelloni 9/ What is your favourite country, or region, to visit? london 10/ What types of film do you like? art house 11/ What was the last meal you ate? stir-fry 12/ Are you a morning, evening or night person? afternoon === Questions for dull administrative purposes === 13/ How did you find out about this list? a link from a vegan web site i don't know which one === Other comments === 14/ If there is anything else you want to add to the above please feel free to do so. -- www.eidolarecords.co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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