How bath, relaxing herbs for yin deficiency?

April 26, 2010

Is a hot bath with relaxing herbs in it contraindicated for someone with yin

deficiency. Someone asked me that question and reported how much better the

person felt in the morning. I was interested in any of your opinions?

I remember Miriam Less once said, " no heat, no yin efficiency " - I've

wondered about that. Can one have yin deficiency without heat.

What if both yin and yang are deficient?

Michael Tierra

April 27, 2010

Supplementary to this, I have often wondered precisely what a Sauna (and part

II, followed traditionally by jumping in the snow or ice cold water naked) does

in terms of Chinese Medical physiology. Obviously, it very powerfully opens the

pores and triggers sweating, followed, in the case of jumping in the snow, with

closing the pores. It must invigorate the Wei Qi circulation mechanism. Any

other thoughts. When might one consider it particularly indicated,

contraindicated?

, " Michael Tierra " <mtierra wrote:

>

> Is a hot bath with relaxing herbs in it contraindicated for someone with yin

> deficiency. Someone asked me that question and reported how much better the

> person felt in the morning. I was interested in any of your opinions?

>

> I remember Miriam Less once said, " no heat, no yin efficiency " - I've

> wondered about that. Can one have yin deficiency without heat.

>

> What if both yin and yang are deficient?

>

> Michael Tierra

>

April 28, 2010

I'd say that it does more then just invigorate the wei qi (or yang qi). I did my

master's thesis on the effect of sauna on male fertility. We had twelve

volunteers take a sauna two times per week and for a period of three weeks. We

had a control group as well. Sperm motility and count decreased significantly

during the sauna period compared to the control group. The effect was temporary

and cleared during the follow-up period.

I'm puzzled as to how to explain this phenomenon in terms of chinese medicine,

but still it is a good thing to know and tell to the infertility couples that

you treat. Obviously it has to do with the rise in temperature of the testes,

but I don't know if tcm has an explanation for this. It can't be wei qi that

does the damage, maybe heat that scorches the tissues of the testes leading to

local stagnation and stasis?

I also interned in Finland for three months and took lots of sauna and rolled in

the snow there :-) I'd say that sauna is contra-indicated with qi vacuity. Try

it when you're tired, you won't feel well.

Can't think of anything else to add now.

best,

Tom.

, " daniel.schulman "

<daniel.schulman wrote:

>

> Supplementary to this, I have often wondered precisely what a Sauna (and part

II, followed traditionally by jumping in the snow or ice cold water naked) does

in terms of Chinese Medical physiology. Obviously, it very powerfully opens the

pores and triggers sweating, followed, in the case of jumping in the snow, with

closing the pores. It must invigorate the Wei Qi circulation mechanism. Any

other thoughts. When might one consider it particularly indicated,

contraindicated?

>

April 28, 2010

I was told by my Chinese doctor that taking Bikram yoga, where there is high

heat and a lot of sweating, would not be good for me. The reasoning from a

CM perspective was that the sweating would deplete Stomach Fluids, which are

the source of Blood. In the Classical CM line of thinking, the ST is in

charge of Blood, the LI in charge of Jin fluids and SI in charge of Ye. But

all fluids are seen to come from the ST. I'm speculating, but perhaps the

Ye (hormones) might be damaged by profuse sweating as well.

I am reminded of the first cloning experiments with Dolly, the sheep. I

think I remember reading that the cloning experiments failed until the

scientists began to pay attention to not only the cellular components they

were working with, but also the fluid environment of the cells. When they

retained the proper fluid matrix for the cells, the cloning succeeded. (not

advocating cloning!)

And we say Qi follows sweat out of the pores, so it makes sense that a Qi

def person would not feel good after a sauna.

In my own experiments with this high heat and profuse sweating of Bikram

Yoga, I would say, yes, the body bounces back if you stop. But also the

body adapts to the demands if you continue - you don't sweat so much, and

the body seems to retain more fluids than normal. (Only talking about

retaining more fluids here, not speaking to the fertility issue.)

RoseAnne

2010/4/28 verhaeghe_tom <tom.verhaeghe

> I'd say that it does more then just invigorate the wei qi (or yang qi). I

> did my master's thesis on the effect of sauna on male fertility. We had

> twelve volunteers take a sauna two times per week and for a period of three

> weeks. We had a control group as well. Sperm motility and count decreased

> significantly during the sauna period compared to the control group. The

> effect was temporary and cleared during the follow-up period.

>

> I'm puzzled as to how to explain this phenomenon in terms of chinese

> medicine, but still it is a good thing to know and tell to the infertility

> couples that you treat. Obviously it has to do with the rise in temperature

> of the testes, but I don't know if tcm has an explanation for this. It can't

> be wei qi that does the damage, maybe heat that scorches the tissues of the

> testes leading to local stagnation and stasis?

>

> I also interned in Finland for three months and took lots of sauna and

> rolled in the snow there :-) I'd say that sauna is contra-indicated with qi

> vacuity. Try it when you're tired, you won't feel well.

>

> Can't think of anything else to add now.

>

> best,

>

> Tom.

>

> , " daniel.schulman "

> <daniel.schulman wrote:

> >

> > Supplementary to this, I have often wondered precisely what a Sauna (and

> part II, followed traditionally by jumping in the snow or ice cold water

> naked) does in terms of Chinese Medical physiology. Obviously, it very

> powerfully opens the pores and triggers sweating, followed, in the case of

> jumping in the snow, with closing the pores. It must invigorate the Wei Qi

> circulation mechanism. Any other thoughts. When might one consider it

> particularly indicated, contraindicated?

> >

>

> ---

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including a

> practitioner's directory and a moderated discussion forum.

>

April 28, 2010

I remember when I posited that the stomach is the seat of yin because fluid

and blood is what creates yin. Lots of arguments about that. It was only a

thought and a perspective. May not be strict TCM theory.

I've spent decades trying to master TCM theory and I must confess that while

my understanding has deepened certain aspects of it complete eludes. It

seems that TCM is circular reasoning par excellence meaning that there is

always a way out of every paradox usually with another paradox.

Despite the effort to standardize or believe that there is an orthodoxy -

there are so many schools of thought with many of the contradicting each

other.

How many times have I heard that moxa is contraindicated for yin deficiency

for instance only to attend a so-called authority who emphatically claims it

is not?

Then there is the depletion of qi or yin when we sweat? Then we can say that

sweating depletes blood and exhausts yang.

Don't you ever feel confused by these pronouncements as I do sometimes?

So I think we should occasionally risk our ignorance to ask questions so we

can learn from each other's experience.

Michael

>

April 29, 2010

It seems that TCM is circular reasoning par excellence meaning that there is

always a way out of every paradox usually with another paradox.

Despite the effort to standardize or believe that there is an orthodoxy there

are so many schools of thought with many of the contradicting each

other.

Lonny: I look at CM as a science of tendencies. The contradictions are often,

though not always, resolved in the specific case in front of me. When the

conflict is not resolved I assume the confusion lies within me, not in the

reality presenting itself. Conflicting theories and perspectives are, like

language, context sensitive. I don't need a rule that covers all situations, I

need to recognize the context and then know which principle to apply.

In Western science and medicine, which is largely based on deductive reasoning,

we apply an immutable principle to all cases. But CM is rooted in deductive

reasoning and here we select the principle that fits the reality.

" The patient is sweating and yang is depleted and hence the appropriate response

is XYZ. " " The patient is sweating and yin is depleted and hence the appropriate

response is pdq. "

The only rule I've ever found that covers all scenarios is " do the right thing " .

April 29, 2010

From SHL perspective sweat is yang

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

alonmarcus

April 29, 2010

Alon,

isn't sweat " ying " , which is exuded through the pores because the yang of

the heart

" steams " the nutritive of the pericardium ? Therefore the heart governing

sweat, not the lungs ?

How is it more yang than yin? If we lose sweat, we lose yang, but don't

we also lose yin?

K

On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 11:22 AM, alon marcus <alonmarcus wrote:

>

> From SHL perspective sweat is yang

>

> 400 29th St. Suite 419

> Oakland Ca 94609

>

> alonmarcus <alonmarcus%40wans.net>

>

April 29, 2010

I know that sweating is thought to damage the yang, but the " sweat " itself