Guest guest Report post Posted April 3, 2010 John et al, Just some random lines from the Nei Jing that I just found to round out our previous conversation on " bitter " . " Acrid [flavor] and sweet [flavor] effuse and disperse and are yang, sour [flavor] and bitter [flavor] cause gushing up and outflow and are yin " Also there is: " When the spleen suffers from dampness, quickly consume bitter [flavor] to dry it. . . . " Also " bitter [flavor] hardens; " Also, " Bitter [flavor] enters the heart. " Also, " This year it is appropriate [to use] salty [flavor] to soften it, and to regulate the above. In severe cases employ bitter [flavor] to effuse it. " Clearly there are many ideas on how bitter is used (there are probably many more) . Just curious, do you still believe bitter in classical times must refer to descending? -Jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 3, 2010 Jason, Would you please provide chapter references? Random information is much less valuable than it is in context. Thanks so much, Steve On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 9:37 AM, < > wrote: > > > John et al, > > Just some random lines from the Nei Jing that I just found to round out our > previous conversation on " bitter " . > > " Acrid [flavor] and sweet [flavor] effuse and disperse and are yang, > > sour [flavor] and bitter [flavor] cause gushing up and outflow and are yin " > > Also there is: > > " When the spleen suffers from dampness, > > quickly consume bitter [flavor] to dry it. . . . " > > Also " bitter [flavor] hardens; " > > Also, " Bitter [flavor] enters the heart. " > > Also, " This year it is appropriate > > [to use] salty [flavor] to soften it, and > > to regulate the above. > > In severe cases employ bitter [flavor] to effuse it. " > > Clearly there are many ideas on how bitter is used (there are probably many > more) . Just curious, do you still believe bitter in classical times must > refer to descending? > > -Jason > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 3, 2010 Jason (quoting Neijing) When the spleen suffers from dampness, quickly consume bitter [flavor] to dry it. . . . " Also " bitter [flavor] hardens; " (firms) Stephen: These statements support Kokko's assertion that bitter represents descent They are excellent quotes to gain better understanding of how bitter works to dry. Zhang Jingyue " The nature of bitter is solid and sinking... " Granted - Zhang is not Han Dynasty era, but we've already been mixing dynasties and it does offer clarity from a true Master Stephen Woodley LAc www.shanghanlunseminars.com -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Same, same, but different... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 3, 2010 Stephen, But you seemed to have not made any mention of the quotes that show bitter as *not* descending. The whole point here is that there are quite differing opinions about what bitter (or any flavor) really means, even in the single Nei Jing. I have never suggested that bitter isn't (in some situations) referring to descending, but I am very adamant that bitter does *not always* mean descending. Quite simply, if we find only one instance that shows that bitter is not descending (in the Nei Jing) then this completely negates the idea that Chai Hu *must* be descending (merely because it is bitter), from its entry in the SNBCJ. At that point it is only a possibility. Therefore, it may or may not, and one *must* have further information to know for sure. Furthermore quoting ZJY actually means very little to me. There are plenty of authors classical and modern that believe herbs that are bitter can ascend, this has been already well demonstrated. For further data, if one consults Unschuld's medicine in China, a history of pharmaceutics we see that T'ao Hung-ching (452-536) (author of the Pen-ts'ao ching chi-chu) said that the bitter *taste* of a drug corresponds to a " strong medicinal effectiveness. " Again nothing to do with descending! As far as specific references for the quotes, I actually don't have the interest in typing these out. If you feel you need to discount all the information, then fine, I could care less. But the quotes are very straightforward and actually anyone who spends time with the Nei Jing or a wide range of Chinese medicine texts can find all sorts of differing opinions on these issues- and that is my ONLY point. For example some consider bitter to be associated with metal element and some with the fire element. Some consider bitter draining while others consider acrid draining. We also say both (in relation to treating the liver ) " acrid dissipates it " and " use acrid supplements it " meaning some situations say acrid is supplementing while others say it is dispersing. Quite simply we cannot be rigid in our belief about flavors, there is a long history of varying opinions. Much of this has to do with five phase thinking. I just think the quotes are nice, do what you want with them... Therefore authors (when they started conceptualizing direction) specifically told us that this or that medicinal is ascending or descending. To this date, I've never seen any author say that Chai Hu is descending. I would love to see one person who says this, that would be interesting... On a side note: drying damp IMO has nothing to do with descending. -Jason On Behalf Of stephen woodley Saturday, April 03, 2010 12:36 PM Re: Bitter (con't) Jason (quoting Neijing) When the spleen suffers from dampness, quickly consume bitter [flavor] to dry it. . . . " Also " bitter [flavor] hardens; " (firms) Stephen: These statements support Kokko's assertion that bitter represents descent They are excellent quotes to gain better understanding of how bitter works to dry. Zhang Jingyue " The nature of bitter is solid and sinking... " Granted - Zhang is not Han Dynasty era, but we've already been mixing dynasties and it does offer clarity from a true Master Stephen Woodley LAc .. http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId=4 8211/stime=1270333770/nc1=4025291/nc2=3848643/nc3=5191955 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 3, 2010 Jason: But you seemed to have not made any mention of the quotes that show bitter as *not* descending. Stephen: OK ~ let's look " Acrid [flavor] and sweet [flavor] effuse and disperse and are yang, sour [flavor] and bitter [flavor] cause gushing up and outflow and are yin " We learn that excessive use of bitter obstructs the yang and closes the 3 burners at the bottom (from descent) and leads to the stomach counterflowing = vomit = gushing up and outflowing - very simple " Bitter [flavor] enters the heart. " flavor affinity based on 5 phase/element allocation - not really pertinent ...In severe cases employ bitter [flavor] to effuse it. " gotta admit I need to chew on this one and look at it in context - sorry Jason: Furthermore quoting ZJY actually means very little to me. Stephen I am stupified by this remark, never heard anyone discount Zhang Jingyue - is there a reason his work means very little to you? Do others on the group share this? Jason: As far as specific references for the quotes, I actually don't have the interest in typing these out. If you feel you need to discount all the information, then fine, I could care less. Stephen ??!?!?!?! I have no idea why you are saying this...where is this coming from? Jason: For example some consider bitter to be associated with metal element and some with the fire element. Some consider bitter draining while others consider acrid draining. We also say both (in relation to treating the liver ) " acrid dissipates it " and " use acrid supplements it " meaning some situations say acrid is supplementing while others say it is dispersing. Stephen Bitter descent reinstates the metal mandate Bitter is the flavor of fire Bitter supplements water by firming and condensing no real mystery Acrid drains metal and supplements wood as wood " wants " to disperse not complicated there is no contradiction here it is consistent with what Kokko, Stephen B and I have been saying all along Jason Quite simply we cannot be rigid in our belief about flavors, there is a long history of varying opinions. Stephen Re-reading the posts on this, I don't see anyone being rigid, it is just healthy, friendly debate and an insight into how Chaihu is seen in SHL formulas...of course there are varying opinions...this is ours and it pans out in every SHL formula using Chaihu Kokko, correct me if I'm wrong...wasn't that what you were positing? Stephen Woodley LAc www.shanghanlunseminars.com -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 4, 2010 > > Hi all, > This is an interesting discussion and much of it can be clarified by reading an article that Jessica Atkins and Arnaud Versluys wrote in the Journal of No. 80 in February 2006. As far as I know, it's the only discussion of the " Classical energetics of the Five Tastes " in the English language. In this article, the authors describe the meaning behind the five flavors according to the Su wen (Chapters 5, 22, 74) and investigated by Zhang Jing Yue, the most famous and well-respected commentator of the Nei jing from the Ming dynasty onward, as well as being one of the most well respected herbalists in the history of Chinese medicine. So, it is interesting that Jason wrote that quoting ZJY meant very little to him in this context. Of course, if we were to do a complete survey of all of the opinions in the history of Chinese medicine about how doctors viewed the five flavors directionality and functionality, we would have many differing perspectives. Our judgement could be based on Qing dynasty educators or by listening to those who are most authoritative in the field ie. the Nei jing itself and the Shen nong ben cao jing and the authoritative commentators of these classics. My personal inclination and I think Stephen W, Stephen B and Steven A. share this.. is to follow the lead of the latter. Here's a quote from Zhang Jing Yue from the Complete Medical Works of Zhang Jing Yue (Zhang Jing yue yi xue quan shu), which is a distillation of the Su wen's flavors discussion: “Pungent governs dispersion and its movement is lateral, therefore it releases the surface. Sweet governs moderation and its movement ascends, therefore it tonifies the middle burner. *Bitter governs purging and its movement descends, therefore it expels excess.* Sour governs collecting and its nature astringes, therefore it treats drainage. Bland governs percolation and its nature disinhibits, therefore it clears by separation. Salty governs softening and its nature sinks, therefore it leads out stagnation ... So if one wishes to disperse the surface, one must move away from sour and cold. If one wishes to descend or purge, one should not combine ascent and dispersion. For abundant yang, one must know not to warm. For weakness of yang, the use of sinking cold is wrong. Upper excess should not be ascended and lower excess should not be consolidated. Upper deficiency should not be descended and lower deficiency should not be drained. If what is moving is moved even more, it is dispersed. If what is static is anchored even more, it is extinguished. Do not use sweet for middle fullness. Do not use bitter for false heat. Do not use pungent for restless heat. Do not use salty for damaged blood. Sour wood tends to invade earth, therefore one should use it sparingly for Spleen qi deficiency. There is always a sign of yin within yang; and within yin there is always the secret of yang. If one clarifies this [theory of] yin and yang then regardless of how mysterious the science of herbs is, how hard can it be to penetrate?” (quoted from Atkins/Versluys article JCM no 80 Feb 2006) Jason, you wrote a " random line from the Nei jing " and I was wondering about the translation of it.... You wrote: " Acrid [flavor] and sweet [flavor] effuse and disperse and are yang, sour [flavor] and bitter [flavor] cause gushing up and outflow and are yin " Is this a translation of the Su wen 5 line 27? or Su wen 74 line 122 ? Whose translation are you quoting? because both lines are translated differently than your quote by Henry Lu... Neither of the verses relay yin flavors " gushing up and outflow " . *Su wen 5 line 27* " With respect to (Qi) and flavors, both pungent and sweet are yang, because pungent disperses and sweet moves in four directions from the center; both sour and bitter are yin, because sour constricts and bitter secretes. " *Su wen 74 line 122* Yellow Emperor said: Good. How to make use of (the) five flavors in combination with yin and yang? Qi bo replied: Pungent and sweet flavors, which can initiate and disperse, belong to yang. Sour and bitter flavors, which can excrete belong to yin... " Here are other lines to consider: *Su wen 5 line 23* " Yin flavors are excreted through the lower orifices; yang Qi excreted through the upper orifices " *Su wen 74 lines 34- 41* Huang Di asks how to treat various kinds of Qi in control of heaven (wind, heat, dampness, fire, dryness, cold) and the relationship of heaven's Qi with earth's Qi with herbal therapy (flavors and Qi-temperature)... In these lines, the bitter taste is described in two ways... as drying and down-bearing. *Line 38* " To treat victorious pathogenic dryness, bitter and damp (warm) herbs should be used to dry it up, to be supplemented by sour and pungent herbs, and *bitter herbs should be used to promote downward movements*. " Happy Easter, K > Just some random lines from the Nei Jing that I just found to round out our > previous conversation on " bitter " . > > " Acrid [flavor] and sweet [flavor] effuse and disperse and are yang, > > sour [flavor] and bitter [flavor] cause gushing up and outflow and are yin " > > Also there is: > > " When the spleen suffers from dampness, > > quickly consume bitter [flavor] to dry it. . . . " > > Also " bitter [flavor] hardens; " > > Also, " Bitter [flavor] enters the heart. " > > Also, " This year it is appropriate > > [to use] salty [flavor] to soften it, and > > to regulate the above. > > In severe cases employ bitter [flavor] to effuse it. " > > Clearly there are many ideas on how bitter is used (there are probably many > more) . Just curious, do you still believe bitter in classical times must > refer to descending? > > -Jason > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 4, 2010 (see below) On Behalf Of stephen woodley [stephan] " Bitter [flavor] enters the heart. " flavor affinity based on 5 phase/element allocation - not really pertinent I would disagree that it is ¡°not really pertinent¡± because commentary on Nei Jing (e.g. ¡¶Àྡ· [Ã÷¡¤ÌìÆôËÄÄê] ÕŽé±ö(¹«Ôª1624Äê) [Èý ¾í ²ØÏóÀà] Îå¡¢ËÄʱÒõÑôÍâÄÚÖ®Ó¦ http://db.39kf.com/zhongyiguji/126/leijing/index.shtml?65586) ¨C states that bitterness actually enters the heart as well as treats fire. Consequently some authors would assign bitterness to herbs that enter the heart. [stephen] Bitter descent reinstates the metal mandate Bitter is the flavor of fire Bitter supplements water by firming and condensing no real mystery What I am referring to has to do with five phase correspondence. Some authors attribute bitter to metal and some attribute bitter to fire. This is different than what you are talking about above. [stephan]Acrid drains metal and supplements wood as wood " wants " to disperse not complicated there is no contradiction here it is consistent with what Kokko, Stephen B and I have been saying all along I agree this acrid issue is no real contradiction nor complicated if one understands. My only point is people use these terms to describe different ways people use the terms / flavors. For example, sour drains the Liver and sour supplements the Liver. Just a question trying to follow the SHL logic here, if acrid drains metal, does that mean acrid is descending because as was previously stated (not by me) that draining = descending? - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 4, 2010 Stephan, Thanks for your comments. I can¡¯t say I necessarily agree with your analysis, but before I decide to delve deeper into dissecting this issue I have one key question for you: Do you have any single source (e.g. SHL commentary) modern or classical that discusses chai hu as being a descending herb in the Shang Han Lun (or even elsewhere)? If not then really I don¡¯t have much desire to put too much effort into this, and that is all I meant by my previous post in regard to not ¡®providing the references¡¯ and caring less. (nothing personal.) I thought you wanted to stick specifically to the Shang Han usage this is why I focused the quotes on the Nei Jing. To understand why ZJY means very little to me (in proving your point) see below. But for the record I like ZJY a lot, I am not discounting him, but your quote is misleading. As I previously stated sometimes people use bitter in describing a descending function, but my contention (as well as ZJY¡¯s) is that there are usages that have nothing to do with descending. Hence ZJY is not saying that *all* bitter herbs descend. This is a misreading of the text. If you look closer at ZJY you will understand. Actually ZJY says there are 6 types of bitter herbs. He divides them into bitter effusing, bitter drying, bitter warming, bitter hardening, bitter draining, and bitter descending. This is straight from the nei jing. He actually says bitter effusing (·¢ fa) herbs are ma huang, bai zhi, sheng ma and *chai hu*! Effusing is pretty much the opposite of descending, and he considers chai hu bitter!. Actually ZJY supports my thesis 100%. And this is only what I meant in my previous post about being rigid. If one only sees one aspect of the meaning of ¡°bitter¡± (meaning only descending), then one is missing the other ideas and has a limited view. Maybe rigid was an incorrect word choice, but I hope you now get my point. BTW ¨C Bitter and warming medicinal are ren shen, fu zi, gan jiang, wu zhu yu and rou gui. Certainly not descending herbs. But if you want to examine Shang Han Lun usage we should look at formulas from this book and the commentary on them. Let¡¯s look at si ni san from the Shang Han Lun. Commentary states that it vents constraint (which is considered an outward movement not descending). In the Explanation of the Classic of Materia Medica it states ¡°Bupleuri Radix (ch¨¢i h¨²) is clear and light, ascending and spreading out the Gallbladder qi. When the Gallbladder qi thrusts outward, the other twelve organs follow its dissipating transformation.¡± Although there is clearly debate on the exact underlying mechanism involved in si ni san (if there is really heat or cold) or what section of the Shang Han it should be contained in, I have never seen anyone debating the action of chai hu in the formula. There have been probably 1000s of commentaries written on the Shang Han and if we cannot find something that states that chai hu is descending and not effusing / ascending then I personally feel we are getting into MSU land with the bitter conversation. So in case my key question got lost in the extended e-mail I will stated again: Stephen, Do you have any single source (e.g. SHL commentary) modern or classical that discusses chai hu as being a descending herb in the Shang Han Lun (or even elsewhere)? Regards, -Jason On Behalf Of stephen woodley Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:58 PM RE: Bitter (con't) Jason: But you seemed to have not made any mention of the quotes that show bitter as *not* descending. Stephen: OK ~ let's look " Acrid [flavor] and sweet [flavor] effuse and disperse and are yang, sour [flavor] and bitter [flavor] cause gushing up and outflow and are yin " We learn that excessive use of bitter obstructs the yang and closes the 3 burners at the bottom (from descent) and leads to the stomach counterflowing = vomit = gushing up and outflowing - very simple " Bitter [flavor] enters the heart. " flavor affinity based on 5 phase/element allocation - not really pertinent ...In severe cases employ bitter [flavor] to effuse it. " gotta admit I need to chew on this one and look at it in context - sorry Jason: Furthermore quoting ZJY actually means very little to me. Stephen I am stupified by this remark, never heard anyone discount Zhang Jingyue - is there a reason his work means very little to you? Do others on the group share this? Jason: As far as specific references for the quotes, I actually don't have the interest in typing these out. If you feel you need to discount all the information, then fine, I could care less. Stephen ??!?!?!?! I have no idea why you are saying this...where is this coming from? Jason: For example some consider bitter to be associated with metal element and some with the fire element. Some consider bitter draining while others consider acrid draining. We also say both (in relation to treating the liver ) " acrid dissipates it " and " use acrid supplements it " meaning some situations say acrid is supplementing while others say it is dispersing. Stephen Bitter descent reinstates the metal mandate Bitter is the flavor of fire Bitter supplements water by firming and condensing no real mystery Acrid drains metal and supplements wood as wood " wants " to disperse not complicated there is no contradiction here it is consistent with what Kokko, Stephen B and I have been saying all along Jason Quite simply we cannot be rigid in our belief about flavors, there is a long history of varying opinions. Stephen Re-reading the posts on this, I don't see anyone being rigid, it is just healthy, friendly debate and an insight into how Chaihu is seen in SHL formulas...of course there are varying opinions...this is ours and it pans out in every SHL formula using Chaihu Kokko, correct me if I'm wrong...wasn't that what you were positing? Stephen Woodley LAc www.shanghanlunseminars.com Switch to: <-traditional ?subject=Change%20Deli very%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only, <-digest ?subject=Email%20Delivery:% 20Digest> Daily Digest * <- ?subject=Un> Un * <> Terms of Use .. <http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId= 48216/stime=1270349652/nc1=1/nc2=2/nc3=3> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 4, 2010 Thanks for the response, it seems like we are getting somewhere, albeit slowly... (See below comments) On Behalf Of Sunday, April 04, 2010 9:27 AM Re: Bitter (con't) [John] This is an interesting discussion and much of it can be clarified by reading an article that Jessica Atkins and Arnaud Versluys wrote in the Journal of No. 80 in February 2006. As far as I know, it's the only discussion of the " Classical energetics of the Five Tastes " in the English language. In this article, the authors describe the meaning behind the five flavors according to the Su wen (Chapters 5, 22, 74) and investigated by Zhang Jing Yue, the most famous and well-respected commentator of the Nei jing from the Ming dynasty onward, as well as being one of the most well respected herbalists in the history of Chinese medicine. So, it is interesting that Jason wrote that quoting ZJY meant very little to him in this context. Please see previous post in regard to ZJY...Yes Arnaud's article is a nice cursory overview of 5 tastes, nice read! But it is just the beginning. [John] Of course, if we were to do a complete survey of all of the opinions in the history of Chinese medicine about how doctors viewed the five flavors directionality and functionality, we would have many differing perspectives. Our judgement could be based on Qing dynasty educators or by listening to those who are most authoritative in the field ie. the Nei jing itself and the Shen nong ben cao jing and the authoritative commentators of these classics. My personal inclination and I think Stephen W, Stephen B and Steven A. share this.. is to follow the lead of the latter. I agree and await any of these " big dogs " saying that chai hu descends. Please supply this idea... Actually Arnaud in his article only talks about Chai Hu's pungent and dispersing quality. Furthermore, ZJY, as you " the most famous and well-respected commentator of the Nei jing " says chai hu is bitter AND effusing (fa)! And as my previous post says, he differentiates bitter into 6 types and definitely DOES NOT believe all bitter medicinals descend. -Jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 4, 2010 Since Kokko is back in the mix and provided a source - I'll step back for the time being, although it is fun confused and curious on one point, though - Jasen: BTW – Bitter and warming medicinal are ren shen, fu zi, gan jiang, wu zhu yu and rou gui. Certainly not descending herbs. Ren shen = sweet Fu Zi = acrid Gan Jiang = acrid Wu zhu yu = acrid Rou gui = ? don’t see that in SNBCJ Gui = acrid Didn't all of this start with an insomnia case 3 weeks ago? If I had known that teasing Kokko would cause this... Stephen Woodley LAc www.shanghanlunseminars.com -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
