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John et al,

 

 

 

Just some random lines from the Nei Jing that I just found to round out our

previous conversation on " bitter " .

 

 

 

" Acrid [flavor] and sweet [flavor] effuse and disperse and are yang,

 

sour [flavor] and bitter [flavor] cause gushing up and outflow and are yin "

 

 

 

Also there is:

 

" When the spleen suffers from dampness,

 

quickly consume bitter [flavor] to dry it. . . . "

 

 

 

Also " bitter [flavor] hardens; "

 

 

 

Also, " Bitter [flavor] enters the heart. "

 

 

 

Also, " This year it is appropriate

 

[to use] salty [flavor] to soften it, and

 

to regulate the above.

 

In severe cases employ bitter [flavor] to effuse it. "

 

 

 

Clearly there are many ideas on how bitter is used (there are probably many

more) . Just curious, do you still believe bitter in classical times must

refer to descending?

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

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Jason,

 

Would you please provide chapter references? Random information is much less

valuable than it is in context. Thanks so much,

 

Steve

 

On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 9:37 AM, <

> wrote:

 

>

>

> John et al,

>

> Just some random lines from the Nei Jing that I just found to round out our

> previous conversation on " bitter " .

>

> " Acrid [flavor] and sweet [flavor] effuse and disperse and are yang,

>

> sour [flavor] and bitter [flavor] cause gushing up and outflow and are yin "

>

> Also there is:

>

> " When the spleen suffers from dampness,

>

> quickly consume bitter [flavor] to dry it. . . . "

>

> Also " bitter [flavor] hardens; "

>

> Also, " Bitter [flavor] enters the heart. "

>

> Also, " This year it is appropriate

>

> [to use] salty [flavor] to soften it, and

>

> to regulate the above.

>

> In severe cases employ bitter [flavor] to effuse it. "

>

> Clearly there are many ideas on how bitter is used (there are probably many

> more) . Just curious, do you still believe bitter in classical times must

> refer to descending?

>

> -Jason

>

>

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Jason (quoting Neijing)

When the spleen suffers from dampness, quickly consume bitter

[flavor] to dry it. . . . "

Also " bitter [flavor] hardens; " (firms)

 

Stephen:

These statements support Kokko's assertion that bitter represents

descent

They are excellent quotes to gain better understanding of how

bitter works to dry.

 

Zhang Jingyue

" The nature of bitter is solid and sinking... "

Granted - Zhang is not Han Dynasty era, but we've already been

mixing dynasties and it does offer clarity from a true Master

 

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

www.shanghanlunseminars.com

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - Same, same, but different...

 

 

 

 

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Stephen,

 

 

 

But you seemed to have not made any mention of the quotes that show bitter

as *not* descending. The whole point here is that there are quite differing

opinions about what bitter (or any flavor) really means, even in the single

Nei Jing.

 

 

 

I have never suggested that bitter isn't (in some situations) referring to

descending, but I am very adamant that bitter does *not always* mean

descending. Quite simply, if we find only one instance that shows that

bitter is not descending (in the Nei Jing) then this completely negates the

idea that Chai Hu *must* be descending (merely because it is bitter), from

its entry in the SNBCJ. At that point it is only a possibility. Therefore,

it may or may not, and one *must* have further information to know for sure.

Furthermore quoting ZJY actually means very little to me. There are plenty

of authors classical and modern that believe herbs that are bitter can

ascend, this has been already well demonstrated.

 

 

 

For further data, if one consults Unschuld's medicine in China, a history of

pharmaceutics we see that T'ao Hung-ching (452-536) (author of the Pen-ts'ao

ching chi-chu) said that the bitter *taste* of a drug corresponds to a

" strong medicinal effectiveness. " Again nothing to do with descending!

 

 

 

As far as specific references for the quotes, I actually don't have the

interest in typing these out. If you feel you need to discount all the

information, then fine, I could care less. But the quotes are very

straightforward and actually anyone who spends time with the Nei Jing or a

wide range of Chinese medicine texts can find all sorts of differing

opinions on these issues- and that is my ONLY point. For example some

consider bitter to be associated with metal element and some with the fire

element. Some consider bitter draining while others consider acrid draining.

We also say both (in relation to treating the liver ) " acrid dissipates it "

and " use acrid supplements it " meaning some situations say acrid is

supplementing while others say it is dispersing.

 

 

 

Quite simply we cannot be rigid in our belief about flavors, there is a long

history of varying opinions. Much of this has to do with five phase

thinking. I just think the quotes are nice, do what you want with them...

 

 

 

Therefore authors (when they started conceptualizing direction) specifically

told us that this or that medicinal is ascending or descending. To this

date, I've never seen any author say that Chai Hu is descending. I would

love to see one person who says this, that would be interesting...

 

 

 

On a side note: drying damp IMO has nothing to do with descending.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of stephen woodley

Saturday, April 03, 2010 12:36 PM

 

Re: Bitter (con't)

 

 

 

 

 

Jason (quoting Neijing)

When the spleen suffers from dampness, quickly consume bitter

[flavor] to dry it. . . . "

Also " bitter [flavor] hardens; " (firms)

 

Stephen:

These statements support Kokko's assertion that bitter represents

descent

They are excellent quotes to gain better understanding of how

bitter works to dry.

 

Zhang Jingyue

" The nature of bitter is solid and sinking... "

Granted - Zhang is not Han Dynasty era, but we've already been

mixing dynasties and it does offer clarity from a true Master

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

 

 

..

 

http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId=4

8211/stime=1270333770/nc1=4025291/nc2=3848643/nc3=5191955

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Jason:

But you seemed to have not made any mention of the quotes that

show bitter as *not* descending.

 

Stephen:

OK ~ let's look

" Acrid [flavor] and sweet [flavor] effuse and disperse and are

yang, sour [flavor] and bitter [flavor] cause gushing up and

outflow and are yin "

 

We learn that excessive use of bitter obstructs the yang and

closes the 3 burners at the bottom (from descent) and leads to

the stomach counterflowing = vomit = gushing up and outflowing -

very simple

 

" Bitter [flavor] enters the heart. "

flavor affinity based on 5 phase/element allocation - not really

pertinent

 

...In severe cases employ bitter [flavor] to effuse it. "

gotta admit I need to chew on this one and look at it in context

- sorry

 

Jason:

Furthermore quoting ZJY actually means very little to me.

 

Stephen

I am stupified by this remark, never heard anyone discount Zhang

Jingyue - is there a reason his work means very little to you? Do

others on the group share this?

 

Jason:

As far as specific references for the quotes, I actually don't

have the interest in typing these out. If you feel you need to

discount all the information, then fine, I could care less.

 

Stephen

??!?!?!?! I have no idea why you are saying this...where is this

coming from?

 

Jason:

For example some consider bitter to be associated with metal

element and some with the fire

element. Some consider bitter draining while others consider

acrid draining. We also say both (in relation to treating the

liver ) " acrid dissipates it " and " use acrid supplements it "

meaning some situations say acrid is supplementing while others

say it is dispersing.

 

Stephen

Bitter descent reinstates the metal mandate

Bitter is the flavor of fire

Bitter supplements water by firming and condensing

no real mystery

Acrid drains metal and supplements wood as wood " wants " to

disperse

not complicated

there is no contradiction here it is consistent with what Kokko,

Stephen B and I have been saying all along

 

Jason

Quite simply we cannot be rigid in our belief about flavors,

there is a long history of varying opinions.

 

Stephen

Re-reading the posts on this, I don't see anyone being rigid, it

is just healthy, friendly debate and an insight into how Chaihu

is seen in SHL formulas...of course there are varying

opinions...this is ours and it pans out in every SHL formula

using Chaihu

Kokko, correct me if I'm wrong...wasn't that what you were

positing?

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

www.shanghanlunseminars.com

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own

 

 

 

 

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>

> Hi all,

>

This is an interesting discussion and much of it can be clarified by reading

an article that Jessica Atkins and Arnaud Versluys wrote in the Journal of

No. 80 in February 2006. As far as I know, it's the only

discussion of the " Classical energetics of the Five Tastes " in the English

language. In this article, the authors describe the meaning behind the five

flavors according to the Su wen (Chapters 5, 22, 74) and investigated by

Zhang Jing Yue, the most famous and well-respected commentator of the Nei

jing from the Ming dynasty onward, as well as being one of the most well

respected herbalists in the history of Chinese medicine.

So, it is interesting that Jason wrote that quoting ZJY meant very little to

him in this context.

 

Of course, if we were to do a complete survey of all of the opinions in the

history of Chinese medicine about how doctors viewed the five flavors

directionality and functionality, we would have many differing perspectives.

Our judgement could be based on Qing dynasty educators or by listening to

those who are most authoritative in the field ie. the Nei jing itself and

the Shen nong ben cao jing and the authoritative commentators of these

classics. My personal inclination and I think Stephen W, Stephen B and

Steven A. share this.. is to follow the lead of the latter.

 

Here's a quote from Zhang Jing Yue from the Complete Medical Works of Zhang

Jing Yue (Zhang Jing yue yi xue quan shu), which is a distillation of the Su

wen's flavors discussion:

 

“Pungent governs dispersion and its movement is lateral, therefore it

releases the surface. Sweet governs moderation and its movement ascends,

therefore it tonifies the middle burner. *Bitter governs purging and its

movement descends, therefore it expels excess.* Sour governs collecting and

its nature astringes, therefore it treats drainage. Bland governs

percolation and its nature disinhibits, therefore it clears by separation.

Salty governs softening and its nature sinks, therefore it leads out

stagnation ... So if one wishes to disperse the surface, one must move away

from sour and cold. If one wishes to descend or purge, one should not

combine ascent and dispersion. For abundant yang, one must know not to warm.

For weakness of yang, the use of sinking cold is wrong. Upper excess should

not be ascended and lower excess should not be consolidated. Upper

deficiency should not be descended and lower deficiency should not be

drained. If what is moving is moved even more, it is dispersed. If what is

static is anchored even more, it is extinguished. Do not use sweet for

middle fullness. Do not use bitter for false heat. Do not use pungent for

restless heat. Do not use salty for damaged blood. Sour wood tends to invade

earth, therefore one should use it sparingly for Spleen qi deficiency. There

is always a sign of yin within yang; and within yin there is always the

secret of yang. If one clarifies this [theory of] yin and yang then

regardless of how mysterious the science of herbs is, how hard can it be to

penetrate?”

 

(quoted from Atkins/Versluys article JCM no 80 Feb 2006)

 

 

Jason, you wrote a " random line from the Nei jing " and I was wondering about

the translation of it....

 

You wrote: " Acrid [flavor] and sweet [flavor] effuse and disperse and are

yang, sour [flavor] and bitter [flavor] cause gushing up and outflow and are

yin "

 

Is this a translation of the Su wen 5 line 27? or Su wen 74 line 122 ?

Whose translation are you quoting?

because both lines are translated differently than your quote by Henry Lu...

 

Neither of the verses relay yin flavors " gushing up and outflow " .

 

*Su wen 5 line 27*

" With respect to (Qi) and flavors, both pungent and sweet are yang, because

pungent disperses and sweet moves in four directions from the center; both

sour and bitter are yin, because sour constricts and bitter secretes. "

 

*Su wen 74 line 122*

Yellow Emperor said: Good. How to make use of (the) five flavors in

combination with yin and yang? Qi bo replied: Pungent and sweet flavors,

which can initiate and disperse, belong to yang. Sour and bitter flavors,

which can excrete belong to yin... "

 

Here are other lines to consider:

 

*Su wen 5 line 23*

" Yin flavors are excreted through the lower orifices; yang Qi excreted

through the upper orifices "

 

*Su wen 74 lines 34- 41*

Huang Di asks how to treat various kinds of Qi in control of heaven (wind,

heat, dampness, fire, dryness, cold) and the relationship of heaven's Qi

with earth's Qi with herbal therapy (flavors and Qi-temperature)...

In these lines, the bitter taste is described in two ways... as drying and

down-bearing.

 

*Line 38*

" To treat victorious pathogenic dryness, bitter and damp (warm) herbs should

be used to dry it up, to be supplemented by sour and pungent herbs, and *bitter

herbs should be used to promote downward movements*. "

 

 

Happy Easter,

 

K

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

> Just some random lines from the Nei Jing that I just found to round out our

> previous conversation on " bitter " .

>

> " Acrid [flavor] and sweet [flavor] effuse and disperse and are yang,

>

> sour [flavor] and bitter [flavor] cause gushing up and outflow and are yin "

>

> Also there is:

>

> " When the spleen suffers from dampness,

>

> quickly consume bitter [flavor] to dry it. . . . "

>

> Also " bitter [flavor] hardens; "

>

> Also, " Bitter [flavor] enters the heart. "

>

> Also, " This year it is appropriate

>

> [to use] salty [flavor] to soften it, and

>

> to regulate the above.

>

> In severe cases employ bitter [flavor] to effuse it. "

>

> Clearly there are many ideas on how bitter is used (there are probably many

> more) . Just curious, do you still believe bitter in classical times must

> refer to descending?

>

> -Jason

>

>

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(see below)

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of stephen woodley

 

 

 

 

[stephan] " Bitter [flavor] enters the heart. "

flavor affinity based on 5 phase/element allocation - not really

pertinent

 

 

 

I would disagree that it is ¡°not really pertinent¡± because

commentary on Nei Jing (e.g. ¡¶Àྭ¡· [Ã÷¡¤ÌìÆôËÄÄê] ÕŽé±ö(¹«Ôª1624Äê) [Èý

¾í ²ØÏóÀà] Îå¡¢ËÄʱÒõÑôÍâÄÚÖ®Ó¦

http://db.39kf.com/zhongyiguji/126/leijing/index.shtml?65586) ¨C states that

bitterness actually enters the heart as well as treats fire. Consequently

some authors would assign bitterness to herbs that enter the heart.

 

 

 

[stephen]

Bitter descent reinstates the metal mandate

Bitter is the flavor of fire

Bitter supplements water by firming and condensing

no real mystery

 

 

 

What I am referring to has to do with five phase

correspondence. Some authors attribute bitter to metal and some attribute

bitter to fire. This is different than what you are talking about above.

 

[stephan]Acrid drains metal and supplements wood as wood " wants " to

disperse

not complicated

there is no contradiction here it is consistent with what Kokko,

Stephen B and I have been saying all along

 

I agree this acrid issue is no real contradiction nor complicated if one

understands. My only point is people use these terms to describe different

ways people use the terms / flavors. For example, sour drains the Liver and

sour supplements the Liver. Just a question trying to follow the SHL logic

here, if acrid drains metal, does that mean acrid is descending because as

was previously stated (not by me) that draining = descending?

 

-

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Stephan,

 

 

 

Thanks for your comments. I can¡¯t say I necessarily agree with your

analysis, but before I decide to delve deeper into dissecting this issue I

have one key question for you:

 

 

 

Do you have any single source (e.g. SHL commentary) modern or classical that

discusses chai hu as being a descending herb in the Shang Han Lun (or even

elsewhere)?

 

 

 

If not then really I don¡¯t have much desire to put too much effort into

this, and that is all I meant by my previous post in regard to not

¡®providing the references¡¯ and caring less. (nothing personal.)

 

 

 

I thought you wanted to stick specifically to the Shang Han usage this is

why I focused the quotes on the Nei Jing. To understand why ZJY means very

little to me (in proving your point) see below. But for the record I like

ZJY a lot, I am not discounting him, but your quote is misleading.

 

 

 

As I previously stated sometimes people use bitter in describing a

descending function, but my contention (as well as ZJY¡¯s) is that there are

usages that have nothing to do with descending. Hence ZJY is not saying that

*all* bitter herbs descend. This is a misreading of the text. If you look

closer at ZJY you will understand.

 

 

 

Actually ZJY says there are 6 types of bitter herbs. He divides them into

bitter effusing, bitter drying, bitter warming, bitter hardening, bitter

draining, and bitter descending. This is straight from the nei jing. He

actually says bitter effusing (·¢ fa) herbs are ma huang, bai zhi, sheng ma

and *chai hu*! Effusing is pretty much the opposite of descending, and he

considers chai hu bitter!. Actually ZJY supports my thesis 100%. And this is

only what I meant in my previous post about being rigid. If one only sees

one aspect of the meaning of ¡°bitter¡± (meaning only descending), then one

is missing the other ideas and has a limited view. Maybe rigid was an

incorrect word choice, but I hope you now get my point.

 

 

 

BTW ¨C Bitter and warming medicinal are ren shen, fu zi, gan jiang, wu zhu

yu and rou gui. Certainly not descending herbs.

 

 

 

But if you want to examine Shang Han Lun usage we should look at formulas

from this book and the commentary on them. Let¡¯s look at si ni san from the

Shang Han Lun. Commentary states that it vents constraint (which is

considered an outward movement not descending). In the Explanation of the

Classic of Materia Medica it states ¡°Bupleuri Radix (ch¨¢i h¨²) is clear

and light, ascending and spreading out the Gallbladder qi. When the

Gallbladder qi thrusts outward, the other twelve organs follow its

dissipating transformation.¡±

 

 

 

Although there is clearly debate on the exact underlying mechanism involved

in si ni san (if there is really heat or cold) or what section of the Shang

Han it should be contained in, I have never seen anyone debating the action

of chai hu in the formula.

 

 

 

There have been probably 1000s of commentaries written on the Shang Han and

if we cannot find something that states that chai hu is descending and not

effusing / ascending then I personally feel we are getting into MSU land

with the bitter conversation.

 

 

 

So in case my key question got lost in the extended e-mail I will stated

again: Stephen, Do you have any single source (e.g. SHL commentary) modern

or classical that discusses chai hu as being a descending herb in the Shang

Han Lun (or even elsewhere)?

 

 

 

Regards,

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of stephen woodley

Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:58 PM

 

RE: Bitter (con't)

 

 

 

 

 

Jason:

But you seemed to have not made any mention of the quotes that

show bitter as *not* descending.

 

Stephen:

OK ~ let's look

" Acrid [flavor] and sweet [flavor] effuse and disperse and are

yang, sour [flavor] and bitter [flavor] cause gushing up and

outflow and are yin "

 

We learn that excessive use of bitter obstructs the yang and

closes the 3 burners at the bottom (from descent) and leads to

the stomach counterflowing = vomit = gushing up and outflowing -

very simple

 

" Bitter [flavor] enters the heart. "

flavor affinity based on 5 phase/element allocation - not really

pertinent

 

...In severe cases employ bitter [flavor] to effuse it. "

gotta admit I need to chew on this one and look at it in context

- sorry

 

Jason:

Furthermore quoting ZJY actually means very little to me.

 

Stephen

I am stupified by this remark, never heard anyone discount Zhang

Jingyue - is there a reason his work means very little to you? Do

others on the group share this?

 

Jason:

As far as specific references for the quotes, I actually don't

have the interest in typing these out. If you feel you need to

discount all the information, then fine, I could care less.

 

Stephen

??!?!?!?! I have no idea why you are saying this...where is this

coming from?

 

Jason:

For example some consider bitter to be associated with metal

element and some with the fire

element. Some consider bitter draining while others consider

acrid draining. We also say both (in relation to treating the

liver ) " acrid dissipates it " and " use acrid supplements it "

meaning some situations say acrid is supplementing while others

say it is dispersing.

 

Stephen

Bitter descent reinstates the metal mandate

Bitter is the flavor of fire

Bitter supplements water by firming and condensing

no real mystery

Acrid drains metal and supplements wood as wood " wants " to

disperse

not complicated

there is no contradiction here it is consistent with what Kokko,

Stephen B and I have been saying all along

 

Jason

Quite simply we cannot be rigid in our belief about flavors,

there is a long history of varying opinions.

 

Stephen

Re-reading the posts on this, I don't see anyone being rigid, it

is just healthy, friendly debate and an insight into how Chaihu

is seen in SHL formulas...of course there are varying

opinions...this is ours and it pans out in every SHL formula

using Chaihu

Kokko, correct me if I'm wrong...wasn't that what you were

positing?

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

www.shanghanlunseminars.com

 

 

 

 

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Thanks for the response, it seems like we are getting somewhere, albeit

slowly...

 

(See below comments)

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of

Sunday, April 04, 2010 9:27 AM

 

Re: Bitter (con't)

 

[John] This is an interesting discussion and much of it can be clarified by

reading

an article that Jessica Atkins and Arnaud Versluys wrote in the Journal of

No. 80 in February 2006. As far as I know, it's the only

discussion of the " Classical energetics of the Five Tastes " in the English

language. In this article, the authors describe the meaning behind the five

flavors according to the Su wen (Chapters 5, 22, 74) and investigated by

Zhang Jing Yue, the most famous and well-respected commentator of the Nei

jing from the Ming dynasty onward, as well as being one of the most well

respected herbalists in the history of Chinese medicine.

So, it is interesting that Jason wrote that quoting ZJY meant very little to

him in this context.

 

 

Please see previous post in regard to ZJY...Yes Arnaud's article is a nice

cursory overview of 5 tastes, nice read! But it is just the beginning.

 

[John] Of course, if we were to do a complete survey of all of the opinions

in the

history of Chinese medicine about how doctors viewed the five flavors

directionality and functionality, we would have many differing perspectives.

Our judgement could be based on Qing dynasty educators or by listening to

those who are most authoritative in the field ie. the Nei jing itself and

the Shen nong ben cao jing and the authoritative commentators of these

classics. My personal inclination and I think Stephen W, Stephen B and

Steven A. share this.. is to follow the lead of the latter.

 

I agree and await any of these " big dogs " saying that chai

hu descends. Please supply this idea... Actually Arnaud in his article only

talks about Chai Hu's pungent and dispersing quality.

 

Furthermore, ZJY, as you " the most famous and well-respected commentator of

the Nei jing " says chai hu is bitter AND effusing (fa)! And as my previous

post says, he differentiates bitter into 6 types and definitely DOES NOT

believe all bitter medicinals descend.

 

 

-Jason

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Since Kokko is back in the mix and provided a source - I'll step

back for the time being, although it is fun

 

confused and curious on one point, though -

 

Jasen:

 

BTW – Bitter and warming medicinal are ren shen, fu zi, gan

jiang, wu zhu

yu and rou gui. Certainly not descending herbs.

 

Ren shen = sweet

 

Fu Zi = acrid

 

Gan Jiang = acrid

 

Wu zhu yu = acrid

 

Rou gui = ? don’t see that in SNBCJ

 

Gui = acrid

 

 

 

Didn't all of this start with an insomnia case 3 weeks ago? If I

had known that teasing Kokko would cause this...

 

 

 

 

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

www.shanghanlunseminars.com

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own

 

 

 

 

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