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Jason,

at ACTCM in SF, most of the supervisors prescribed a combination of pills,

powders and raw herbs.

Some only did pills, some only did raw herbs,

but I would say that we gave some herbs to just about every single patient

who came into the clinic.

 

I agree that mentorship is essential, not only for the students sake,

but also for the mentor, because teaching is a skill that needs to be

cultivated in order to master the medicine

on all levels. Some are better at the teaching part, some are better at

listening or analyzing the case,

but I believe that teaching completes the circle,

making us better practitioners and more well-rounded human beings.

 

In the few years of teaching now, I've grown leaps and bounds from learning

from students,

just as patients are our best teachers and getting direct feedback on

strengths and weaknesses,

challenging us to become more creative and succint.

I've always respected my teachers, (especially the good ones) but now I

revere those

who can embody the authenticity of the medicine, not because of any ego

persona.

 

These spars we have over ideas are certainly healthy and challenge us to

push the envelope.

Whatever philosophy we " own " today, may change in a few years or with the

meeting of a new teacher.

 

For some, this goal is to know how to use the classic formulas well and

modify them minimally,

in order to have a clear vision of what the formula did for the patient.

There are numerous commentaries, records and reports of Zhang Zhong Jing's

formulas over 1800 years.

We have an idea of what they do in the accurate situation and he himself

documented

the effects and the presentation when they are modified by even dosage alone

ie. Gui zhi tang vs Gui zhi jia gui tang

 

For some, this worthy goal is not as you say using " stock formulas "

without utilizing originality or creativity nor precise diagnostics for

clinical efficacy,

but " classic formulas " that are much more complex as we give them credit

for.

By knowing the formulas well, we can hone in our treatment with pin-point

accuracy.

It can take lifetimes to master the intricacies of Zhang Zhong Jing's

formulas

and then I can see manipulating them, if you already have a 7th degree black

belt.

 

What Stephen wrote is what I experienced with many supervisors at school,

who learned in China...

using TCM base formulas and then mixing Dui-yao pairs and single herbs

into the formulas for branch signs/symptoms.

 

If " stock formulas " you mean TCM formulas in pills that we give

unconsciously to patients

based on symptomatology, instead of constitution, then I completely agree

with you.

 

Again, great conversation,

K

 

 

 

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To clarify, when I am referring to " stock formulas " I am essentially

referring to the basic 50 or so core formulas that people memorize in school

for various patterns. For example, Xiao Yao San for liver and spleen

disharmony. Being able recognize this connection is formulas 101 and only

the first step. Unfortunately, many leave school with only this level of

herbalism. Hence, people are reduced to looking in " cheat books " where they

look up a disease, pick a pattern, and give a formula. Or as many see, just

giving patent formulas.

 

 

 

The next level is being able to modify these formulas based on traditional

modifications. This should not be rocket science because most books will say

if they have XYZ symptom then add this Herb.

 

 

 

The next step is being able to flexibly modify formulas for mixed patterns

as well as adding modifications that are not standard.

 

 

 

The final step, is to transcend all of this and be able to write a formula

from scratch using ideas from all of the above.

 

 

 

Actually my comments about " stock formulas " have nothing to do with SHL,

which I merely view as one of many books to learn from.

 

 

 

Again, this is only my opinion and I'm sure the SHL purists who think the

ultimate goal of herbalism to give a unmodified or only slightly modified

SHL formula would disagree. That is fine, but I believe people are much more

individual than a handful of formulas that any one book contains and that

the more one can learn to modify the better herbalist they will be.

 

 

 

Granted, any system, including SHL, may be able to address the large

percentage of problems, although I question that in our climate here in

Colorado. However, it is my belief that just learning SHL and its

modifications is far from optimal in addressing all clinical complaints.

Just as, giving Xiao Yao San may address the majority of liver and spleen

disharmony, but it will definitely fall short for other cases.

 

 

 

One thing that should be kept in mind, is that many doctors over the

centuries have written down formulas in " their " books. However, when one

compares their actual case studies to the formulas they wrote down one

rarely finds the doctors giving these same " stock " or " unmodified " formulas.

First one learns the book knowledge and then learns to apply it to the

clinic. Even the modifications that the doctors themselves mention are not

always used when the real patient is in front of them. They are merely

guidelines for us to start thinking about how to address the individual.

This is precisely what these later doctors such as DGR did and I have no

proof (because there are no case records) but I image ZZJ and doctors of

that time were did similarly.

 

 

 

However, we do know that the very first person (Xu Shu-Wei) to publish SHL

case studies and (I think) commentary on the SHL did make modifications to

core formulas that were not in the original text. This trend never changed.

 

 

 

Remember the SHL was just a compilation of formulas (found in the Imperial

Library) of that time that ZZJ put together. Although there are some

guidelines and system inherent in the book generally speaking the " system "

came from later commentators.

 

 

 

Of course one must take one step at a time.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Jason-

 

I would argue that there is a very deep and profound system that

underlies the " compilation of formulas " in the SHL (and JGYL, which I

think you are including, but I will mention it for readers who are

not getting that) and that the point of the text was this system.

This system can be reverse engineered by looking at the formulas and

the modifications of the formulas in the text, looking at the

chapters not included in the English translation of the text, and

studying some of the books mentioned by ZZJ in his preface, not the

least of which is the Neijing. This system was designed so that the

person confronted with epidemic disease could " understand the origin

of illnesses encountered " and " think out over half [of all medical

problems]. " How can anyone claim that the system " came from later

commentators " ? Maybe the exegesis of the text that clarified the

system, but not the system itself.

 

Let me make it clear that I do not think that the SHL/JGYL is the

only system of herbal medicine that people should practice, however.

I know there are a lot of other great herbalists and systems of

herbal medicine in the history of Chinese medicine. I am not

claiming that my preference should be every one else's preference.

What I advocate is choosing a system and working those ideas so that

you develop a very deep understanding of the methods of that system.

I believe it is better for people to be a master of one system than a

jack of all trades.

 

The SHL/JGYL is clearly a very robust and alive system that works in

a superior fashion in the treatment of many many diseases, which has

been shown generation after generation. If one so chooses to use

that system, and only that system, they can be very effective

physicians.

 

-Steve

 

Stephen Bonzak, L.Ac., Dipl. O.M.

http://www.health-traditions.com

sbonzak

773-470-6994

 

 

 

On Mar 24, 2010, at 8:41 AM, wrote:

 

>

> Remember the SHL was just a compilation of formulas (found in the

> Imperial

> Library) of that time that ZZJ put together. Although there are some

> guidelines and system inherent in the book generally speaking the

> " system "

> came from later commentators.

>

 

 

 

 

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As to what students should know I'll repeat what I saw in doctors who had just

come from China to work in the US. Many of them had decades of experience in

their specialities and they would get hired to work the eclectic cases that

showed up in the student clinics here. Many of them had two small books tucked

in their lab coats that they were constantly referring to. Eventually I asked

someone what they were. It was then that I was made aware of the two Jiao Shu-de

books. Of course, in Chinese they are small enough to carry around like this.

 

Interestingly, when the translations came out and I showed them to Dr. Yang,

(the Nanjing- SHL expert that Al and I keep referring to) he kind of sneered.

ooops. He quickly apologized and told me I should keep learning them. hahaha. of

course. He is very direct.

 

As to those who feel the US education is lacking, my young translator friend in

Beijing has the same comments about not remembering formulas, short term

memorization for tests, etc... And in China there is an overlay of the focus on

Western medicine and Western medications. Of course, she has access to a number

of post graduation opportunities but I get the feeling that this learning is

bought or otherwise traded in following her " master " .

 

Doug

 

 

 

, " " wrote:

>

> To clarify, when I am referring to " stock formulas " I am essentially

> referring to the basic 50 or so core formulas that people memorize in school

> for various patterns. For example, Xiao Yao San for liver and spleen

> disharmony. Being able recognize this connection is formulas 101 and only

> the first step. Unfortunately, many leave school with only this level of

> herbalism. Hence, people are reduced to looking in " cheat books " where they

> look up a disease, pick a pattern, and give a formula. Or as many see, just

> giving patent formulas.

>

>

>

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There is no doubt that the educational system in China is also problematic.

However, there is much more availability in regard to following senior

practitioners and post graduate studies as you mention. This is the key. Not

to mention just the sheer access to massive university libraries. It is

really just about potential opportunity.

 

 

 

However, Chinese medicine in China has a large problem in that a large

percentage of students do not want to even be studying Chinese medicine. A

single CM undergraduate program might have 10,000 students with the average

age of around 20. Most only want to graduate and make money, hence they go

into all sorts of side businesses. I've heard that 50% of graduates do not

practice (sound familiar?).

 

 

 

Furthermore, for those that do practice, it is much easier to make money

working at a hospital practicing integrated Western medicine than working in

a clinic practicing just Chinese medicine. This is because essentially you

are competing with all of the old doctors and it is very hard to get

clients. Therefore, finding " authentic unadulterated " (whatever that means)

Chinese medicine doctors is usually hard to find unless they are much older.

 

 

 

 

Consequently, many of the doctors that come to the US are not high-level

doctors, even though many claim to be. Many just see it as an opportunity to

make money. Some lie about their credentials (or exaggerate them) to get the

job. Some may have been primarily acupuncturists but because they studied

basic Chinese herbalism (and they are Chinese) they are now heading up

herbal classes in the US. Unfortunately, a little bit of herbal studies in

China can many times be far superior to some Westerners' training. This is

not at all to put down Western teachers, because there are some very amazing

Western teachers that I have had.

 

 

 

My point is, there is a wide range of levels in both China and the West and

we must be discriminate.

 

 

 

But isn't learning always bought on some level? How much do you pay for a

doctorate degree now in the US? Do people take these seriously? You could

take half that money, go to China, and get a much better education in my

opinion. I find the minimal amount of fees to study with great doctors in

China is usually only a token of your appreciation. Any doctor who charges

high prices I stay away from anyway.

 

 

 

I am curious why Dr. Yang would apologize?

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of

Wednesday, March 24, 2010 12:14 PM

 

Re: To modify or not to modify, that is the quest...

 

 

 

 

 

As to what students should know I'll repeat what I saw in doctors who had

just come from China to work in the US. Many of them had decades of

experience in their specialities and they would get hired to work the

eclectic cases that showed up in the student clinics here. Many of them had

two small books tucked in their lab coats that they were constantly

referring to. Eventually I asked someone what they were. It was then that I

was made aware of the two Jiao Shu-de books. Of course, in Chinese they are

small enough to carry around like this.

 

Interestingly, when the translations came out and I showed them to Dr. Yang,

(the Nanjing- SHL expert that Al and I keep referring to) he kind of

sneered. ooops. He quickly apologized and told me I should keep learning

them. hahaha. of course. He is very direct.

 

As to those who feel the US education is lacking, my young translator friend

in Beijing has the same comments about not remembering formulas, short term

memorization for tests, etc... And in China there is an overlay of the focus

on Western medicine and Western medications. Of course, she has access to a

number of post graduation opportunities but I get the feeling that this

learning is bought or otherwise traded in following her " master " .

 

Doug

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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There is no question that SHL is a robust system. I enjoy it immensely.

However clinically experienced practitioners that actually *just* practice

SHL/JGYL are few and far between. For example, most SHL practitioners

incorporate other ideas into it, or when " other " problems are encountered

use other modalities (e.g. wen bing). Actually one of the most knowledgeable

people in the West on SHL, Dan Bensky, has published his favorite formula

paper on San Ren Tang. Also Huang Huang routinely adds modern modifications

into his formulas. However, all of this surely makes sense to me.

 

 

 

My point is really that *most* SHL experts do other things besides just what

is in the text. AS mentioned this has been going on since we have written

record of SHL usages.

 

 

 

But no doubt, in the beginning it is helpful to pick a system and master it

and stick to the basics, but at a certain point it is nice to see what the

pros do in the real life clinic.

 

 

 

For the record, I have searched years to study with a practitioner that just

does SHL. In Chinese / Taiwanese clinics / hospitals I have been in, the SHL

" experts " almost always had " other " modifications. It is a very hard thing

to find a pure SHL practitioner. At one point in time I was disappointed,

but then I realized ohhhh, this is just another way (and probably most

common way) to approach these texts. That is, a more " creative approach. " I

would though here of " some " guy in such and such a city that one could try

to go study with. I have never made the 5-10 hour trek though. If anyone

knows anyone in the Zhe Jiang area to study with please let me know!

 

 

 

AS far as when the system was developed. I agree there is an inherent system

" built " into the text. But later generations took this an ran with it and

many of the ideas that we hold are from " interpretations " on the text. That

is one reason there is so much debate in what things mean and how to use it.

 

 

 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Stephen Bonzak

Wednesday, March 24, 2010 8:51 AM

 

Re: To modify or not to modify, that is the quest...

 

 

 

 

 

Jason-

 

I would argue that there is a very deep and profound system that

underlies the " compilation of formulas " in the SHL (and JGYL, which I

think you are including, but I will mention it for readers who are

not getting that) and that the point of the text was this system.

This system can be reverse engineered by looking at the formulas and

the modifications of the formulas in the text, looking at the

chapters not included in the English translation of the text, and

studying some of the books mentioned by ZZJ in his preface, not the

least of which is the Neijing. This system was designed so that the

person confronted with epidemic disease could " understand the origin

of illnesses encountered " and " think out over half [of all medical

problems]. " How can anyone claim that the system " came from later

commentators " ? Maybe the exegesis of the text that clarified the

system, but not the system itself.

 

Let me make it clear that I do not think that the SHL/JGYL is the

only system of herbal medicine that people should practice, however.

I know there are a lot of other great herbalists and systems of

herbal medicine in the history of Chinese medicine. I am not

claiming that my preference should be every one else's preference.

What I advocate is choosing a system and working those ideas so that

you develop a very deep understanding of the methods of that system.

I believe it is better for people to be a master of one system than a

jack of all trades.

 

The SHL/JGYL is clearly a very robust and alive system that works in

a superior fashion in the treatment of many many diseases, which has

been shown generation after generation. If one so chooses to use

that system, and only that system, they can be very effective

physicians.

 

-Steve

 

Stephen Bonzak, L.Ac., Dipl. O.M.

http://www.health-traditions.com

sbonzak <sbonzak%40pacificcollege.edu>

773-470-6994

 

On Mar 24, 2010, at 8:41 AM, wrote:

 

>

> Remember the SHL was just a compilation of formulas (found in the

> Imperial

> Library) of that time that ZZJ put together. Although there are some

> guidelines and system inherent in the book generally speaking the

> " system "

> came from later commentators.

>

 

 

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Guest guest

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 7:43 AM, <

> wrote:

 

>

>

> Dan Bensky, has published his favorite formula

> paper on San Ren Tang.

>

I love San Ren Tang!

 

Where is this paper, online somewhere? Peer-reviewed journal?

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

http://twitter.com/algancao

 

 

 

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yes- I have read it, but I can't find it. it's great because it was a formula

that I never really understood prior to his article. can someone post a link?

 

 

Cara

 

On Mar 25, 2010, at 11:39 AM, Al Stone wrote:

 

> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 7:43 AM, <

> > wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Dan Bensky, has published his favorite formula

> > paper on San Ren Tang.

> >

> I love San Ren Tang!

>

> Where is this paper, online somewhere? Peer-reviewed journal?

>

> --

> , DAOM

> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

> http://twitter.com/algancao

>

>

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Not sure where it is these days. I also love san ren tang and use it almost

daily. Such warm disease presentations I find very difficult to address with

Shang Han style prescribing.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Al Stone

Thursday, March 25, 2010 9:39 AM

 

Re: To modify or not to modify, that is the quest...

 

 

 

 

 

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 7:43 AM, <

<%40Chinese Medicine> >

wrote:

 

>

>

> Dan Bensky, has published his favorite formula

> paper on San Ren Tang.

>

I love San Ren Tang!

 

Where is this paper, online somewhere? Peer-reviewed journal?

 

--

A

 

 

 

 

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Guest guest

Not sure about Bensky's paper, but wrote an article on San

ren tang

in the Lantern, which coincidentally was published with Jason's article on :

" Huang Qi through the eyes of Zhang Zhong Jing "

 

http://www.chinabooks.com.au/ChinaBooks/search.cfm?UR=25415 & search_stage=details\

& records_to_display=1

 

K

 

 

 

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 8:47 AM, <

> wrote:

 

>

>

> Not sure where it is these days. I also love san ren tang and use it almost

> daily. Such warm disease presentations I find very difficult to address

> with

> Shang Han style prescribing.

>

> -Jason

>

> <%40>

>

[ <%40>\

]

> On Behalf Of Al Stone

> Thursday, March 25, 2010 9:39 AM

>

> <%40>

> Re: To modify or not to modify, that is the quest...

>

> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 7:43 AM, <

> <%40Chinese Medicine><

> %40Chinese Medicine <%2540Chinese Medicine>> >

>

> wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Dan Bensky, has published his favorite formula

> > paper on San Ren Tang.

> >

> I love San Ren Tang!

>

> Where is this paper, online somewhere? Peer-reviewed journal?

>

> --

> A

>

>

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Guest guest

If I remember correctly it was on the SIOM site but the article doesn't seem to

be there now.

Doug

 

 

, " " wrote:

>

> Not sure where it is these days. I also love san ren tang and use it almost

> daily. Such warm disease presentations I find very difficult to address with

> Shang Han style prescribing.

>

>

>

> -Jason

>

>

>

>

> On Behalf Of Al Stone

> Thursday, March 25, 2010 9:39 AM

>

> Re: To modify or not to modify, that is the quest...

>

>

>

>

>

> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 7:43 AM, <

> <%40Chinese Medicine> >

> wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Dan Bensky, has published his favorite formula

> > paper on San Ren Tang.

> >

> I love San Ren Tang!

>

> Where is this paper, online somewhere? Peer-reviewed journal?

>

> --

> A

>

>

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

" " : However, there is much more availability in regard to

following senior

> practitioners and post graduate studies as you mention. This is the key. Not

> to mention just the sheer access to massive university libraries. It is

> really just about potential opportunity.

>

 

Yes, this is true about the potential....

 

>

>

> However, Chinese medicine in China has a large problem in that a large

> percentage of students do not want to even be studying Chinese medicine. A

> single CM undergraduate program might have 10,000 students with the average

> age of around 20. Most only want to graduate and make money, hence they go

> into all sorts of side businesses. I've heard that 50% of graduates do not

> practice (sound familiar?).

>

 

Even some of my best Chinese teachers and colleagues admitted they wanted to do

something else. Of course, some of our revered classic doctors couldn't pass the

government bureaucracy tests so they went into medicine! Still the contemporary

PRC doctor is in the top 5% to get into these schools. I do feel that in the

West are students are. for the most part, really motivated and I know the

Chinese teachers appreciate that as well.

>

>

> Furthermore, for those that do practice, it is much easier to make money

> working at a hospital practicing integrated Western medicine than working in

> a clinic practicing just Chinese medicine. This is because essentially you

> are competing with all of the old doctors and it is very hard to get

> clients. Therefore, finding " authentic unadulterated " (whatever that means)

> Chinese medicine doctors is usually hard to find unless they are much older.

>

 

That's why you see these young Chinese doctors with the wispy beards. And then I

have one very attractive (and intelligent) Western colleague who puts on fake

glasses so people won't think she is just a " dumb blonde " .

>

>

>

> Consequently, many of the doctors that come to the US are not high-level

> doctors, even though many claim to be. Many just see it as an opportunity to

> make money. Some lie about their credentials (or exaggerate them) to get the

> job.

 

I don't know how much its that or if they just don't cop to it then people

assume they are amazing. It also goes the other way, where a doctor may have a

speciality in herbs for one particular disease and then come here and do

acupuncture when its clear they haven't seen a needle in the past 30 years.

 

>

>

>

> My point is, there is a wide range of levels in both China and the West and

> we must be discriminate.

 

Agreed, but students often mythologize these teachers and the administrators

follow that.

 

>

>

>

> But isn't learning always bought on some level? How much do you pay for a

> doctorate degree now in the US? Do people take these seriously? You could

> take half that money, go to China, and get a much better education in my

> opinion.

 

One program in China says you have to be under 40 years old to do the masters

and under 50 for a doctorate. Maybe with cash they would make an exception for

me?

 

Listen, there are all sorts of ways to get over no matter where you are from.

You can claim lineage or be the special disciple of a master of some sort or

another. Throughout time there have been very successful (financially) quacks

and those amazing doctors without enough patients who are " good with theory " .

But we know that integrity eventually comes around, however employment is not

always the reward.

 

 

>

> I am curious why Dr. Yang would apologize?

>

I think he saw that I shouldn't hesitate to learn everything in Jiao Shude

before learning the " real deal " . In other words I have a lot of catching up to

do in his eyes.

 

Doug

 

 

 

>

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I have Bensky's paper, but don't want to handle dozens of e-mail requests. . .

Jason, if you can ask Dan if its ok, I'll forward it to the CHA archives. .

 

Z'ev

On Mar 25, 2010, at 11:41 AM, wrote:

 

> Not sure about Bensky's paper, but wrote an article on San

> ren tang

> in the Lantern, which coincidentally was published with Jason's article on :

> " Huang Qi through the eyes of Zhang Zhong Jing "

>

>

http://www.chinabooks.com.au/ChinaBooks/search.cfm?UR=25415 & search_stage=details\

& records_to_display=1

>

> K

>

> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 8:47 AM, <

> > wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Not sure where it is these days. I also love san ren tang and use it almost

> > daily. Such warm disease presentations I find very difficult to address

> > with

> > Shang Han style prescribing.

> >

> > -Jason

> >

> >

<%40>

> >

[ <%40>\

]

> > On Behalf Of Al Stone

> > Thursday, March 25, 2010 9:39 AM

> >

> > <%40>

> > Re: To modify or not to modify, that is the quest...

> >

> > On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 7:43 AM, <

> > <%40Chinese Medicine><

> > %40Chinese Medicine <%2540Chinese Medicine>> >

> >

> > wrote:

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > Dan Bensky, has published his favorite formula

> > > paper on San Ren Tang.

> > >

> > I love San Ren Tang!

> >

> > Where is this paper, online somewhere? Peer-reviewed journal?

> >

> > --

> > A

> >

> >

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Guest guest

Jason,

I found this post very informative and telling facts. I do know one professor in

Chengdu who only precribes SHL formulas and his prescriptions are always limited

to 6 ingredients. Unfortunately, to the best of my knowledge, he has few

patients.

 

I have also studied with another ex head of SHL dept. and he practised SHL/JGYL

formulas with modifications. They worked wonderfully. However, he had retired

and is in his early 80s now.

 

It brings out the issue of your viewpoints/ideas that I disagree with.

 

<< I find the minimal amount of fees to study with great doctors in

China is usually only a token of your appreciation. Any doctor who charges high

prices I stay away from anyway>>.

 

First of all, learning a trade to make a living is not easy. Japanese sushi

apprentice are required to scrub the buckles for a whole year before they are

allowed to teach the rice. In CM modalities, apprenticeship (means cheap labor)

is the only way to learn the trade, but no gurantee you'll master the knowhow to

make a living.

 

Now we have college education. You need to pay US$10,000 per year for a few

years, in the states case, again no gurantee you master the knowhow in and out.

If my memory served me right, one of our CHA members advanced his knowhow in

skin issues in UK and it is no minimal fee to me (but they gurantee something).

I can assure you that those senior CM physicians know their values. Either you

do not learn the whole esoteric stuff or they really like you.

 

Besides, even you are willing to pay as handsome as that institute in UK, you

had better be hurry. Those senior are in their 70s, 80s now. Jiao Shue de lived

almost 100 and it is not common to have these old ages.

 

Even you are willing to pay, there are no ways.

 

That is why I once wanted to collect some valuable knowledge from this great SHL

master to write a book, such as how to study SHL/TCM among others. If you are

interested, may be we can work together and put together a book about SHL.

 

Sung, Yuk-ming

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Yuk-Ming,

 

 

 

I agree, I did not mean to suggest that one should not have to pay for their

education. I only object to the doctors that charge an exorbitant amounts of

money because they know Westerners will pay. I personally have just found

that the best doctors will of course charge a fee, but it is usually

considerably less -- and then the education is more about an exchange on a

deeper level versus the Dr. making money.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Yuk Ming

Saturday, March 27, 2010 7:27 PM

 

 

 

 

 

<< I find the minimal amount of fees to study with great doctors in

China is usually only a token of your appreciation. Any doctor who charges

high prices I stay away from anyway>>.

 

First of all, learning a trade to make a living is not easy. Japanese sushi

apprentice are required to scrub the buckles for a whole year before they

are allowed to teach the rice. In CM modalities, apprenticeship (means cheap

labor) is the only way to learn the trade, but no gurantee you'll master the

knowhow to make a living.

 

Now we have college education. You need to pay US$10,000 per year for a few

years, in the states case, again no gurantee you master the knowhow in and

out. If my memory served me right, one of our CHA members advanced his

knowhow in skin issues in UK and it is no minimal fee to me (but they

gurantee something). I can assure you that those senior CM physicians know

their values. Either you do not learn the whole esoteric stuff or they

really like you.

 

Besides, even you are willing to pay as handsome as that institute in UK,

you had better be hurry. Those senior are in their 70s, 80s now. Jiao Shue

de lived almost 100 and it is not common to have these old ages.

 

 

 

 

__

 

 

 

 

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Yes,

that's why this is valuable. It's free and there are fine

doctors here too with a lot of knowledge passed down from their teachers.

 

My experience is that people who think about money all of the time, have

less time to think about the medicine and patients. So, I agree that this

medicine is too powerful to be a commodity. If we are willing and dedicated

and passionate about learning, it should be accessible for anyone who will

put their mind, body and guts into it.

 

I'm grateful to those who have published books, because this is a very

affordable way for all of us to learn about hard-earned experiences. Also,

give thanks to those who teach seminars, for sharing their pearls for really

peanuts in return.

 

K

 

 

 

On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 6:53 AM, <

> wrote:

 

>

>

> Yuk-Ming,

>

> I agree, I did not mean to suggest that one should not have to pay for

> their

> education. I only object to the doctors that charge an exorbitant amounts

> of

> money because they know Westerners will pay. I personally have just found

> that the best doctors will of course charge a fee, but it is usually

> considerably less -- and then the education is more about an exchange on a

> deeper level versus the Dr. making money.

>

>

> -Jason

>

> <%40>

>

[ <%40>\

]

> On Behalf Of Yuk Ming

> Saturday, March 27, 2010 7:27 PM

>

>

> << I find the minimal amount of fees to study with great doctors in

> China is usually only a token of your appreciation. Any doctor who charges

> high prices I stay away from anyway>>.

>

> First of all, learning a trade to make a living is not easy. Japanese sushi

> apprentice are required to scrub the buckles for a whole year before they

> are allowed to teach the rice. In CM modalities, apprenticeship (means

> cheap

> labor) is the only way to learn the trade, but no gurantee you'll master

> the

> knowhow to make a living.

>

> Now we have college education. You need to pay US$10,000 per year for a few

> years, in the states case, again no gurantee you master the knowhow in and

> out. If my memory served me right, one of our CHA members advanced his

> knowhow in skin issues in UK and it is no minimal fee to me (but they

> gurantee something). I can assure you that those senior CM physicians know

> their values. Either you do not learn the whole esoteric stuff or they

> really like you.

>

> Besides, even you are willing to pay as handsome as that institute in UK,

> you had better be hurry. Those senior are in their 70s, 80s now. Jiao Shue

> de lived almost 100 and it is not common to have these old ages.

>

> __

>

>

>

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Jason,

 

I totally agree with your viewpoint as I was in the same boat before.

 

When I was in Chengdu in early 90s I did my clinical observation with a

well-known acupunture professor there. He asked for a lumpsum but I only paid

him on monthly basis. I did not learn much, to say the best. I knew many other

foreigners (I am an outsider too) paid even more but were in the same situation

like mine. I was just naive to assume I should be taught properly. It is just a

matter of individual integrity. I did not blame anyone. I just did not have the

good luck to encounter some super doc and was taught all the trade.

 

Think about it. If you ask a senior lecturer in Julia Academy of Music to tutor

you, how much you think he/she will charge you per hour? Or in Vidal Sasson

Academy? They probaly don't bother to take you, no matter what you offer.

 

Todays students are not prepared to sacrifice. I know all Korean TCM students

are required to study 2 years of Chinese language before their admission to my

tcm U. Of coz 2 yr is not enough but at least they had commitment. It pays off

when they graduate (5 yr of tcm education), at least they master another

language skill.

 

I know two Israeli students stayed for a couple of years on thier own to pick up

the langauge (and CM knowledge) after they spent their 4 month program before

their graduation in Chengdu. It is because they listened to my advice.

 

Being a trained education professional myself, I understand learning is a

painful process. To learn TCM is a pain in the ass and achieve clinical efficacy

is a uphill battle. You have to be at the right time with the right person.

 

Fortunately, I know there are many talented American CM and acupuncturists they

are really committed. I wish I can contribute more if I could. Like Jason say,

TCM is an endangered profession in China and hope it blossoms in N Am.

 

Sorry off the topic! I do have something to say about that

 

SUNG, Yuk-Ming

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Thank you Yuk Ming, et al for sharing your experiences. Please feel free to

share any you want. It is very interesting to see what each of us goes through

to learn this noble trade. My passion from the beginning was CM. It was very

difficult 25 years ago so I opted out and focused on Western herbology this was

still good especially when I experienced the teachings of the Eclectics.In the

past 4 months this group has inspired and opened my mind more than I thought

ever possible from an e-mail group.

Blessings to you all,

 

Patrick Edgmon

 

--- On Mon, 3/29/10, Yuk Ming <sxm2649 wrote:

 

Yuk Ming <sxm2649

Re: To modify or not to modify, that is the quest...

 

Monday, March 29, 2010, 7:09 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jason,

 

 

 

I totally agree with your viewpoint as I was in the same boat before.

 

 

 

When I was in Chengdu in early 90s I did my clinical observation with a

well-known acupunture professor there. He asked for a lumpsum but I only paid

him on monthly basis. I did not learn much, to say the best. I knew many other

foreigners (I am an outsider too) paid even more but were in the same situation

like mine. I was just naive to assume I should be taught properly. It is just a

matter of individual integrity. I did not blame anyone. I just did not have the

good luck to encounter some super doc and was taught all the trade.

 

 

 

Think about it. If you ask a senior lecturer in Julia Academy of Music to tutor

you, how much you think he/she will charge you per hour? Or in Vidal Sasson

Academy? They probaly don't bother to take you, no matter what you offer.

 

 

 

Todays students are not prepared to sacrifice. I know all Korean TCM students

are required to study 2 years of Chinese language before their admission to my

tcm U. Of coz 2 yr is not enough but at least they had commitment. It pays off

when they graduate (5 yr of tcm education), at least they master another

language skill.

 

 

 

I know two Israeli students stayed for a couple of years on thier own to pick up

the langauge (and CM knowledge) after they spent their 4 month program before

their graduation in Chengdu. It is because they listened to my advice.

 

 

 

Being a trained education professional myself, I understand learning is a

painful process. To learn TCM is a pain in the ass and achieve clinical efficacy

is a uphill battle. You have to be at the right time with the right person.

 

 

 

Fortunately, I know there are many talented American CM and acupuncturists they

are really committed. I wish I can contribute more if I could. Like Jason say,

TCM is an endangered profession in China and hope it blossoms in N Am.

 

 

 

Sorry off the topic! I do have something to say about that

 

 

 

SUNG, Yuk-Ming

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Mr Edgmon,

 

I tip my hat to anyone focusing upon one single trade over 3 yrs, 25 yrs is

amazing. Sorry I do not know much about western herbology. I did see one UK tv

series about using them to treat various metropolitan diseases such as bloating,

constipation, skin issues etc.

 

Herbology has no boundaries. Dandelion in Oregon is just as effective as that in

some part of China. We can just condense the abstract/essence and treat some

symptoms or for cosmetic purposes.

 

It is easier to study Chinese herbology for me because we inherit all the widsom

in the herbal literature by our ancient CM doctors.

May be someday we can work on some book about putting up herbals for cancer.

 

It is nice to know more colleagues, really making my day.

 

Sung, Yuk-ming

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