RE: Insomnia/Bai Shao/Chi Shao

[Guest guest]

I've heard a report from Brian Weissbuch that he was taught to prepare Bai Shao

by steaming Paeonia sp. in some sort of black bean preparation (not sure of the

exact details). Does anyone have any information about this? Eric?I've dug a lot

of wild peony here (which is divine - not in the big 's' sense) and have dug

some roots of ornamental peony in my grandma's yard in the midwest and they are

all much more pungent and more akin to chi shao and even mu dan pi in their

fragrance profile. While Paeonia doesn't get much play in the Western herbal

literature I find this interesting: named after Paeon, a physician to the gods

who obtained the plant on Mount Olympus from the mother of Apollo, the peony

needs to be left alone and punishes those who try to move it by not flowering

again for several years.Ben Zappin

 

 

johnkokko

Sun, 14 Mar 2010 22:33:47 -0700

Re: Insomnia

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Stephen,

 

 

 

In the earliest materia medicas and in the Shang han za bing lun,

 

Bai shao and Chi shao were not differentiated, but named " Shao yao " .

 

The species for both is Paeonia lactiflora.

 

 

 

The difference today is that Bai shao is cultivated Paeonia lactiflora with

 

the bark removed,

 

while Chi shao is the wild-crafted and the bark is retained

 

(Bensky,Clavey,Stoger MM 3rd ed)

 

 

 

So, by going with the rules of the formula, we can choose either herb to

 

use.

 

 

 

In this particular patient's case, we can choose either one..

 

but Chi shao works better for her case with the blood stasis and heat.

 

 

 

I've already stated that Gan cao xie xin tang would be an ideal choice,

 

according to the Shang han za bing lun method,

 

but we should also be open to other ways of treating a patient,

 

especially when we don't have the fukushin reflexes and specific

 

pulse-position picture.

 

 

 

If the pulse is slippery, wiry and rapid in the left guan position....

 

Huang qin

 

slippery, rapid in the right guan position...da huang/ huang lian

 

If both positions, then a Xie xin tang would cover both.

 

 

 

Without actually being there, I stand on the potential effectiveness of

 

another formula helping the patient as well,

 

either a modified Xiao chai hu tang (my rx), modified Gui zhi fu ling tang

 

(wan would be too sticky- honey pill) (Al's rx)

 

or Ban xia shu mi tang modification (Jason's rx).

 

 

 

Great discussion.

 

 

 

K

 

 

 

On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 5:50 PM, stephen woodley <learntcmwrote:

 

 

 

>

 

>

 

> Kokko:

 

>

 

> Gui zhi fu ling wan consists of five herbs: Gui zhi, Fu ling, Chi

 

> shao, Mudan pi, Tao ren

 

>

 

> Stephen

 

> Not sure why you keep citing Chi Shao

 

> considering the prominent position of Bai Shao in the Tang Ye

 

> Jing and the consistent " fit " of Bai shao in formulas of Shanghan

 

> Zabing Lun tradition - I believe that this too is Baishao

 

> Guizhi + Baishao is an extremely important pairing

 

> it would be consistent with SHL formula architecture and makes

 

> more sense functionally than chishao

 

>

 

> Also, from reading the signs and symptoms - it seems that Z'ev's

 

> approach should be looked into

 

>

 

> Suzanne,

 

> you posted that the pulse was slippery rapid

 

> may I ask at which position you observed the slippery image?

 

> if it was right hand 2nd position, it would strongly support the

 

> use of dahuang or huanglian + ganjiang

 

>

 

> can you give us more pulse info?

 

>

 

> Stephen Woodley LAc

 

> www.shanghanlunseminars.com

 

>

 

> --

 

> http://www.fastmail.fm - Does exactly what it says on the tin

 

>

 

>

 

>

[Guest guest]

, ben zappin <btz23 wrote:

>

>

> I've heard a report from Brian Weissbuch that he was taught to prepare Bai

Shao by steaming Paeonia sp. in some sort of black bean preparation (not sure of

the exact details). Does anyone have any information about this? Eric?

 

Chi Shao can be derived from either Paeonia lactiflora Pall. or P. veitchii

Lynch. The latter is only used as Chi Shao. The former is used as both Chi

Shao and Bai Shao. When it is wild, Paeonia lactiflora is Chi Shao. When it is

cultivated and subjected to Pao Zhi, it is Bai Shao.

 

In other words, Bai Shao is derived only from cultivated Paeonia lactiflora that

has been subjected to Pao Zhi, which typically involves boiling.

 

Eric Brand

[Guest guest]

Hi Ben,

I'm pretty sure that He shou wu is processed with black beans in the usual

method.

Never heard of Bai shao processed that way.

Does anyone know the specific way to process Shu di huang?

 

K

 

 

 

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 8:59 PM, smilinglotus <smilinglotuswrote:

 

>

>

>

>

> --- In

<%40>,

> ben zappin <btz23 wrote:

> >

> >

> > I've heard a report from Brian Weissbuch that he was taught to prepare

> Bai Shao by steaming Paeonia sp. in some sort of black bean preparation (not

> sure of the exact details). Does anyone have any information about this?

> Eric?

>

> Chi Shao can be derived from either Paeonia lactiflora Pall. or P. veitchii

> Lynch. The latter is only used as Chi Shao. The former is used as both Chi

> Shao and Bai Shao. When it is wild, Paeonia lactiflora is Chi Shao. When it

> is cultivated and subjected to Pao Zhi, it is Bai Shao.

>

> In other words, Bai Shao is derived only from cultivated Paeonia lactiflora

> that has been subjected to Pao Zhi, which typically involves boiling.

>

> Eric Brand

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

 

 

""

 

 

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

K,

 

 

 

Shu Di Huang can be processed all sorts of ways, one being simply dry-frying

it.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of

Monday, March 15, 2010 11:36 PM

 

Re: Insomnia/Bai Shao/Chi Shao

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Ben,

I'm pretty sure that He shou wu is processed with black beans in the usual

method.

Never heard of Bai shao processed that way.

Does anyone know the specific way to process Shu di huang?

 

K

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I have heard of He Shou Wu being processed by heaping it in large mounds and

putting it through a fermentation process. If you've ever dug Polygonum

multiflorum and tried to consume it, you know it produces quite a laxative

effect.

Ben

 

 

 

Tue, 16 Mar 2010 07:04:16 -0600

RE: Insomnia/Bai Shao/Chi Shao

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

K,

 

 

 

Shu Di Huang can be processed all sorts of ways, one being simply dry-frying

 

it.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of

 

Monday, March 15, 2010 11:36 PM

 

 

 

Re: Insomnia/Bai Shao/Chi Shao

 

 

 

Hi Ben,

 

I'm pretty sure that He shou wu is processed with black beans in the usual

 

method.

 

Never heard of Bai shao processed that way.

 

Does anyone know the specific way to process Shu di huang?

 

 

 

K

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I wrote a blog on the Bai Shao vs. Chi Shao issue. Here is the link:

 

http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2010/03/16/chi-shao-vs-bai-shao

 

Eric Brand