shen nong ben cao con't

April 8, 2010

Lonny,

Thanks for clarifying your position. I wrote out some of my thinking in relation

to the thoughts you shared. Please correct me if I have misinterpreted you.

Lonny: The expectation is that, over the course of treatment the patient will

evidence progression along all assessable lines of development and that the most

significant of these will always be the evolution of their consciousness

(Spirit) as evidenced in the increased integrity of their choices/behavior. In

other words, Spirit is recognized as being primary and higher-it is recognized

as the force that's optimally driving the whole process.

Trevor: Although I like the thinking behind your thoughts here Lonny, the main

flaw that I see in it, is that it implies that the Doctor/ physician is in a

place of higher hierarchy, who is able to actually recognize that someone's

consciousness is not already in its highest state.

Who is able to witness this? If someone is suffering with weak lungs, as in the

form of chronic asthma, does this mean that their consciousness is somehow

lesser evolved? I actually prefer to think that perhaps this persons mind is

already evolved, and may in fact be a " Buddha mind " and that they are

manifesting in front of me so that I can practice compassion. I really do not

know who that person in front of me really is.

I can offer prayers to this person that their mind be free of all suffering, and

that they awaken to their full " Spiritual nature " (with a big S), but what if

they already have? For me to think that I can judge this is pretty far fetched,

and creates an illusion of dualism- me=superior and them=inferior. All I can do

is offer my support with loving prayer.

I remember reading some quotes by Mother Theresa, where by she liked to look at

every person she helped as being a living image of her God, Jesus Christ. For it

was in this way that she was able to humble herself and give with true

compassion- both for those she helped and for herself as part of her own

journey.

For me, I see the usefulness in thinking about " nourishing destiny " as an act of

giving the skills, that I have acquired, to the individuals in need, so that

they can live out the purpose they have come to Earth to fulfill. This purpose

may not necessarily be visible to me, and may in fact already be very clear to

the individual, but if I am able to help their asthma, or eczema, or sore knee,

perhaps I can help ease some suffering through which they may go on their way to

fulfill that purpose. To me, this is a way to practice " spiritual medicine " and

it works, for me.

Assuming that I am some how trying to Enlighten someone, whom may already be

Enlightened, is a pretty foolish game.

Interesting topic, thanks for sharing.

Trevor

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April 8, 2010

Lonny:Â CM is exploding technically and intellectually but, arguably, the main

body of " standard professional Chinese medicine " hasn't moved an inch vertically

in 100 years

Trevor: I am curious as to why you think this?

To me this is really a matter of perspective. The way in which individuals

develop faith in any given system of thought changes from time to time. In terms

of Chinese medicine, for the masses of the worlds population to gain faith in

its potential, one could argue that the " scientification " of CM was a necessary

step, and that without that step ever having taken place, westerners (and many

Easterners for that matter) may not ever have know what Chinese medicine was in

the first place.

Does " Spirtualism " have to follow any given path or system of thought? Or can

the simple act of helping another being relieve their suffering, through

something like herbal medicine, be defined as Spiritual medicine.Â

Is it not the intention behind the act of giving that which could be deemed

" Spiritual " or is it something else. And how are we truly to know what the

intentions, or VALUES as you say, were of the many thousands of physicians who

practiced CM over this 100 year period you speak of.Â

One could argue that many physicians, who used to practice their spiritual

beliefs in open public while practicing medicine, had to practice secretly

within themselves for fear of prosecution during this time period you speak of.

Â Does that change the power of the medicine? Is it perhaps good to " not judging

a book by its cover " .Â

It kind of reminds me of the Tibetan story of the monk who was judged and

labelled lazy for lying around all day, seemingly doing nothing. When, in fact,

he was deeply training his mind through meditation. It is just that his stance

was off, and everyone around him thought that to be " Spiritual " meant that you

had to talk, sit, eat, and walk a certain, man accepted/ made up, way.Â

Trevor

--- On Thu, 4/8/10, Lonny <revolution wrote:

Lonny <revolution

Re: shen nong ben cao con't

Received: Thursday, April 8, 2010, 11:29 AM

Â

Trevor: why having a conversation about it is the only way to " advance the

medicine at this point in history. "

Lonny: I realized I didn't answer this part of your question. We have to make

the distinction between lateral development and vertical development. Lateral

development means you know more and more technically and intellectually about

what you are doing but that the context in which you hold what you learn remains

static. Vertical development means that the vantage point of your perspective

evolves, becomes higher, and recontextualizes all that you already know. It

means your VALUES change. As I said, our technical and intellectual level of

development has far outpaced our ethical stage of development. There can only be

vertical movement when Spirit is recognized as being higher. CM is exploding

technically and intellectually but, arguably, the main body of " standard

professional Chinese medicine " hasn't moved an inch vertically in 100 years.

This has everything to do with the materialism in which TCM was formulated and

the pluralism that was prevalent in

the West when it arrived here.

So, given our life conditions and the state of the medicine at the

present time it is my consideration that having a discussion of what it means to

" put Spirit first " is the most significant conversation we could have. In this

regard we can derive inspiration from the past, but have a very new context to

let in before such an inquiry could yield the most useful results. Regards,

Lonny

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April 8, 2010

Z'ev,

Thank you for the email! I have mostly stayed out of this (although I have

thrown in a few blows) because it seems non-productive, or at least too

combative. Not to mention the fact that I really can't add too much to the

discussion because I don't think my classical reading/translation skills are

good enough to really have a meaningful impact.

I totally agree with the entirety of your emails and hope that all parties can

find a way to have these debates in a more constructive manner.

Also, I have been considering starting another list for those of us who may want

to have these types of discussions. Although I am sure some of the list members

who are not participating in these types of translation and theoretical

discussions may be interested, I have always thought of CHA as a more clinically

based list. So, if you are interested, shoot me an email (privately) and if

there seems like enough interest I will gear up a new list for these types of

discussions.

May All Beings Find True Happiness!

Thomas

, <zrosenbe wrote:

>

> Folks,

> I've been watching this conversation for weeks without any actual free time

to contribute much, but I have just a few thoughts to share.

>

> No matter what our level of scholarship, we are all basically creatures of

'point of view'. Some view things more physically, some more

poetically/artistically, some more metaphysically, and it colors how we

interpret Chinese medicine to be. As Volker Scheid notes about Sun Si-miao's

description of the å¤§é†« da yi/great physician, " only someone capable of

viewing a problem from a number of perspectives is able to grasp the processes

of transformation that animate the universe " . So a physician of Chinese

medicine must be learned enough, experienced enough to view each patient from

the appropriate perspective.

>

> Heiner is right, there are a number of approaches one can take to the

classical Chinese medical literature, all one has to do is see how many

currents/schools grew out of just the Su Wen throughout Chinese medical history.

The richness of the Chinese medical would appear to be inexhaustible. We have

varying skill levels in translation, practice, experience, and mastery of

theory, but I think we also need some humility, especially those of us who do

have some Chinese language or translation skills (I put my own skills at a lower

level. I am basically an interpreter of what others have translated, although I

have enough Chinese skills to access original source texts).

>

> Despite the combativeness over the issue of å`½ming, I think that Lonny has

a right to express his view from where he stands, without being belittled for

it. I am also very supportive of those who have developed their Chinese

language and translation skills. It takes a lot of devotion and sacrifice to

move to China and study for an American like Thomas. It takes an extreme amount

of effort to do what Jason does, i.e. have a full clinical practice, teach, and

continue to study and translate Chinese medical texts. I admire these efforts,

as I find it so difficult to have time to continue my language and medical

studies on top of practice, teaching and family life. It can be exhausting in

one's later 50's, even with yoga, qing dan diet and other yang sheng practices.

>

> But my greatest admiration goes for the farmer/scholars such as Herman and

Sabine Wilms. . . because they are living the medicine, 'on the land', as well

as delving deeply into the medical texts for us with little financial reward.

>

> To sum up, hey guys, let's get together and stop the non-productive aspects

of debate, and walk this journey together. We're all trying hard to figure out

this immense, difficult medical tradition the best we can. .

>

April 9, 2010

Trevor: Although I like the thinking behind your thoughts here Lonny, the main

flaw that I see in it, is that it implies that the Doctor/ physician is in a

place of higher hierarchy, who is able to actually recognize that someone's

consciousness is not already in its highest state.

Lonny: I understand your reticence to acknowledge hierarchy and I addressed this

in my post as a central feature of pluralistic (green meme) consciousness.

Perhaps you will follow up on the insight.

The Confucians who wrote much of the classics were all about hierarchy.Of

course, these were " blue meme " dominator hierarchies and these were overthrown

at postmodern levels of development for an " everything and everyone is equal "

value system in lieu of racism, church oppression, and the holocaust, etc.. The

problem is that the, " you have your truth, I have my truth, and all truths are

equal because they are all a matter of perspective " approach leads to an amoral

context where no perspective is recognized as being higher.

Still, natural hierarchy is a potential for those with the eyes to see it. I

will suggest that if the practition in general than patients then something is

very wrong and the basis of the relationship is likely to be collusion.

Trevor: Who is able to witness this?

Lonny: After giving one's life to a medicine so deeply rooted in a Spiritual,

philosophical, and cosmological context it should at least be the practitioner

given how superficial and materialistic our culture is.

Trevor: If someone is suffering with weak lungs, as in the form of chronic

asthma, does this mean that their consciousness is somehow lesser evolved?

Lonny: Hardly. Ramana Maharshi died of cancer. There is no direct causal

relationship between awakening and health of the vehicle. To suggest there is,

is spiritual materialism akin to " the secret " etc. Awakening simply removes

one's conditioning from having input into illness but there are other genetic

and environmental factors involved.

Trevor: I actually prefer to think that perhaps this persons mind is already

evolved, and may in fact be a " Buddha mind " and that they are manifesting in

front of me so that I can practice compassion. I really do not know who that

person in front of me really is.

Lonny: You know them by their words and actions. The already enlightened self

is just a potential that most people have little awareness of, and most who see

it turn their backs on. Diagnostically the point is to perceive what a patient

authentically has seen and the degree of sincere effort they are making to close

the gap between that and their actual level of development/conditioning.

Trevor: I can offer prayers to this person that their mind be free of all

suffering, and that they awaken to their full " Spiritual nature " (with a big S),

but what if they already have?

Lonny: Then your prayers are unnecessary. If your treating an enlightened person

then the role of medicine is merely to purify the vehicle. They wont need

medicine to awaken because they will be living at the evolving edge of awareness

actively pushing it forward and they sure won't need counseling or consolation.

Trevor: For me to think that I can judge this is pretty far fetched, and creates

an illusion of dualism- me=superior and them=inferior. All I can do is offer my

support with loving prayer.

Lonny: You may well be right in this assessment of yourself but this should not

be so. A Practitioner of this medicine should have a much, much bigger

perspective on the nature of choices a patient is making and their motivation

for making them then the average patient. What you are expressing is the central

tenet of a culturally given value system that is largely unexamined. I will

suggest that you might benefit by examining it. I will also suggest that it

probably isn't true and that you are probably judging others all the time.

Beyond that my finding is that the data on the efficacy of prayer is well split

down the middle. I wouldn't discount it, but I'd invest a lot more confidence in

frank conversation.

Trevor: I remember reading some quotes by Mother Theresa, where by she liked to

look at every person she helped as being a living image of her God, Jesus

Christ. For it was in this way that she was able to humble herself and give with

true compassion- both for those she helped and for herself as part of her own

journey.

Lonny: At a certain level of development, for lepers in Calcutta this is perhaps

an appropriate response. For the most fortunate people who have ever lived it

amounts to little more than self indulgence and reinforces the most significant

cause of their stagnation and illness which is the illusion that they are

victims.

Trevor: For me, I see the usefulness in thinking about " nourishing destiny " as

an act of giving the skills, that I have acquired, to the individuals in need,

so that they can live out the purpose they have come to Earth to fulfill. This

purpose may not necessarily be visible to me, and may in fact already be very

clear to the individual, but if I am able to help their asthma, or eczema, or

sore knee, perhaps I can help ease some suffering through which they may go on

their way to fulfill that purpose. To me, this is a way to practice " spiritual

medicine " and it works, for me.

Lonny: Individual destiny is an illusion. We are all vehicles for the expression

of the same thing. Physical improvement is always desirable but not at the

expense of reinforcing a stagnant consciousness and world view. Physical

improvement is no more a guarantee of conscious evolution than physical illness

is a sign of a spiritual problem.

I understand your sentiments but, given that the primary people we treat are the

most fortunate who have ever lived I find that your view does not go far enough.

It's the expression of a postmodern and pluralistic value system's take on the

premodern teachings whose highest expression was compassionate " service " . Again,

this makes sense historically but I will suggest does not since the rise of the

middle class in the developed nations 100 years ago.

Trevor: Assuming that I am some how trying to Enlighten someone, whom may

already be Enlightened, is a pretty foolish game.

Lonny: This sentence encapsulates the problem I've been pointing to inherent in

pluralistic consciousness. On the one hand enlightenment is the highest

(upper/destiny (ming4)/light (ming-sun/moon) stage that can be reached-the jewel

in an incarnation. On the other hand, you're making everything and everyone

equal. True the best part of ourselves is always already enlightened. But most

will die only having seen momentary glimpses of that and never having

consciously given to it. Practically speaking, any individual is only as

enlightened as the effort they are making to live up to the highest they have

seen to be true. Most of us could do better.

Lastly, enlightenment isn't an end state.....it's developmentally. In this

regard the vertical dimension, the Spiritual dimension is brought into medicine.

In this way holistic medicine fulfills it's potential and the possibility of

integral medicine is born.

Trevor: Interesting topic, thanks for sharing.

Lonny: There is a lot to look into here beyond already known value systems. This

isn't a " you have your truth and I have my truth " scenario. There is actually a

bigger and more wholesome perspective that has arisen since the advent of post

holocaust pluralism and it has very significant implications for the practice of

medicine.

Regards, Lonny

April 9, 2010

Trevor: I am curious as to why you think this?

To me this is really a matter of perspective. The way in which individuals

develop faith in any given system of thought changes from time to time. In terms

of Chinese medicine, for the masses of the worlds population to gain faith in

its potential, one could argue that the " scientification " of CM was a necessary

step, and that without that step ever having taken place, westerners (and many

Easterners for that matter) may not ever have know what Chinese medicine was in

the first place.

Lonny: I agree that the advent of the " orange meme " materialistic and scientific

perspective was a significant stage in the evolution of consciousness. It's also

an important perspective inherent in any truly integral approach to

science/medicine. I don't think however that it played a significant role in

introducing CM to the world. After all, CM had been spreading since the 1600's.

Trevor: Does " Spirtualism " have to follow any given path or system of thought?

Lonny: Yes. The authentic spiritual impulse is developmental so it always moves

things toward higher states of integration and wholeness.

Trevor: Or can

the simple act of helping another being relieve their suffering, through

something like herbal medicine, be defined as Spiritual medicine.Â

Is it not the intention behind the act of giving that which could be deemed

" Spiritual " or is it something else.

Lonny: Again, this has to do with developmental levels. If someone has two

graduate degrees and drives to their session in a BMW and then complains about

their life I will make the outrageous claim that compassion probably isn't the

most significant thing they need. I will go so far as to question if such a

person even has the moral right to be unhappy given their comparatively

fortunate position in the universe.

Trevor: And how are we truly to know what the

intentions, or VALUES as you say, were of the many thousands of physicians who

practiced CM over this 100 year period you speak of.

Lonny: Well, we can read their words.

Trevor: One could argue that many physicians, who used to practice their

spiritual

beliefs in open public while practicing medicine, had to practice secretly

within themselves for fear of prosecution during this time period you speak of.

Lonny: Well, Buddhism, Confucianism, and Daoism were pervasive. Not sure of you

point?

Trevor: Does that change the power of the medicine? Is it perhaps good to " not

judging

a book by its cover " .

Lonny: Actually, CM gives us a pretty powerful tool to make sure that w are not

judging a book by its cover. A person's behavior instantly conveys their degree

of enlightenment and the source of their inner identification and motivation. No

Guess work involved-it's a rigorous science. As Oscar Wilde said, " Only

superficial people don't judge others based on appearances " or, put another way,

" as it is on the outside so too is it on the inside, as it is in the beginning,

so too is it in the end. "

Trevor: It kind of reminds me of the Tibetan story of the monk who was judged

and

labelled lazy for lying around all day, seemingly doing nothing. When, in fact,

he was deeply training his mind through meditation. It is just that his stance

was off, and everyone around him thought that to be " Spiritual " meant that you

had to talk, sit, eat, and walk a certain, man accepted/ made up, way.

Lonny: A perfect postmodern take on a premodern story. I guess this all depends

on how seriously one is taking one's self and one's incarnation, and what we

think enlightenment is. I'd say most of us are pretty casual, that time is

running out, and we could all be a lot more serious. Apparently, Mr. Flaws and

his teachers think so too.

April 9, 2010

Lonny actually insinuates a very interesting point that lies beneath the

discussion at large:

What kind of culture has Chinese medicine been practiced in during its long

history?

We are all greatly influenced by streams and currents of philosophies, political

ideologies, religions, and historical developments. The United States is the

archetype of a modern democracy, with its individualism, and warring ideologies

of secular materialism on one side and spiritual camps on the other. China is

still a communist country with a capitalist bent, with its spiritual traditions

less apparent at the surface. I know I am generalizing, but I am trying to make

a point.

That point is, was there such a separation between a Confucianist society and

its spiritual practices, rituals, and beliefs (or in some eras, a

Confucianist/Taoist/Buddhist society) and the practice of medicine? While post

Nei Jing medicine clearly had a naturalist bent, does that mean that its authors

and practitioners were secular materialists? The historical evidence would

clearly say not.

It is very difficult to see Chinese medicine through the lenses of the societies

in which it was practiced historically, especially after one hundred years or

more of biomedical influences, " Mr. Science " , the guo ming dan and the

communists. But the effort must be made.

It will make it easier for us to transcend our own cultural lenses.

On Apr 9, 2010, at 5:05 AM, Lonny wrote:

> Lonny: I understand your reticence to acknowledge hierarchy and I addressed

this in my post as a central feature of pluralistic (green meme) consciousness.

Perhaps you will follow up on the insight.

>

> The Confucians who wrote much of the classics were all about hierarchy.Of

course, these were " blue meme " dominator hierarchies and these were overthrown

at postmodern levels of development for an " everything and everyone is equal "

value system in lieu of racism, church oppression, and the holocaust, etc.. The

problem is that the, " you have your truth, I have my truth, and all truths are

equal because they are all a matter of perspective " approach leads to an amoral

context where no perspective is recognized as being higher.

>

> Still, natural hierarchy is a potential for those with the eyes to see it. I

will suggest that if the practition in general than patients then something is

very wrong and the basis of the relationship is likely to be collusion.

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

April 10, 2010

Yes Z'ev is correct. As I've stated before, we will never truly understand

Chinese culture from 2000 years ago, as most of us Westerners barely even

understand modern Chinese culture. Viewing their culture through scientific

materialism, our overly individualistic and creative tendencies, or new age

spiritualism is destined to color the way we view things. This is why it has

always been my contention to *try* to get the most unbiased perspective

possible and not try to project anything. Of course one can never do this

100%.

But Z'ev, what is the means that we go about such an inquiry? It has always

been my contention that the way one learns about the culture and medicine is

through reading their texts. How else do you recommend? Of course

archaeological artifacts and such have some impact, but unless I'm missing

something the texts themselves are the gateway into their thinking, history,

and culture.

Reading their texts takes academic skills, just as examining artifacts does.

Reading these texts often requires the recently criticized breakdown of

grammatical structures as well as etymology of characters, among other

things. Because of this difficulty, I will never suggest that I personally

am a Han Dynasty expert and able to decipher the intricacies of these

classical texts. Honestly, I don't think anyone on the list has this

ability. Hence why I rely on experts much more specialized than me.

Interestingly, to demonstrate the difficulty of Chinese language, the PhD

linguist that I know is a professor of Chinese language and specializes in

Han Dynasty Chinese. If one shows him a Qing Dynasty passage he often will

just say I have no idea this is beyond my scope. Language usage in varying

time periods are so drastically different one must really have a time period

and even sometimes a genre specialty to know what they're doing, at least on

an academic level.

Back to the spirit...

So many feel that something spiritual is lacking in Chinese medicine. If

this " loss " happened 70 years ago, in 1571 with the split between

official/professional CM and shamanistic practice, or another time, it is

still a valid opinion. Although I doubt that our concepts of spirituality

today have anything to do with the shamanistic and divination practices of

ancient Chinese medicine nor the bizarre Daoist immortality practices.

However this does not mean we cannot talk about ways to better and enhance

our clinical practice through " spiritual " ideas.

Therefore, putting all the recent philosophical and linguistic (never-ending

debate) aside, it would be quite interesting to see how people put these

ideas to practice. For example, let's take Mr. Hur Jun. The Korean's in

general focused on the heart and Mr. Hur Jun was probably influenced by Ming

Neoconfucianism. Nonetheless, if we like his ideas it would be very useful

to see how he put this Heart medicine into practice. Did Gabriel or others

find something useful that they could share to help us get a better idea of

how he uses these ideas?

In general though, even with all my case study reading, I have had a great

difficulty finding cases that demonstrate such a spiritual slant (e.g. as

discussed on this board). One can find quite a few interesting shamanistic

or more stranger methods of treatment in cases and stories, however I don't

think anyone nowadays in the West is practicing this way. If they are, I

would love to hear these success stories.

Although, if we cannot find some Chinese case studies, it would be useful to

see how people on this list are putting these ideas to practice in the West.

Because I am probably just dense, I am having a hard time figuring out how

to apply these theoretical discussions on spirit to my patients. How do I

diagnose the spiritual problems and choose medicinals accordingly? (Since

this is the CHA it would be useful to stick to herbs and not get into the

anything goes practices of acupuncture.)

I'm sure there are seminars that one could attend or books that one could

read, but I think it might be extremely useful to present just a few cases

so we can get an idea of how this stuff is actually put to use and discuss

them instead of just philosophical debate. Are people that are practicing

this higher level medicine (treating before there is physical disease) not

using acupuncture and herbs as Mr. Hur Jun suggests?

Surely, we know CM has a great capacity to treat before actual disease

manifests, however I only know how to do this using basic pattern

differentiation, giving herbs, giving dietary advice, using acupuncture,

teaching things such as breathing exercises, etc. Interestingly though many

people have thought that I have helped them with their emotional problems,

life problems, and spiritual dilemmas, but this is merely by treating the

pattern and practicing compassion in their presence. I would love to learn

how to diagnose and treat these patients directly before anything happens

instead of having to rely on basic Chinese medicine theory. It would be a

huge service to the world if we can just prevent physical disease by healing

people through the Heart. Wow, what a thought. Evolution..

Just out of curiosity, if the patient does not yet have a physical disease

and one treats them (through the Heart) and they did not get a disease how

do we know they were actually going to get a disease? Such a process sounds

much deeper than merely treating the patterns of Chinese medicine. Is this

correct?

For example, basic Chinese medicine states that we treat patterns before

they progress into various illnesses. For example, we know that many cancers

are from qi, blood, and phlegm stagnation (of course among other things).

However, I personally would use CM (e.g. herbs and acupuncture) if I saw

this formation. Even so, if we see a patient with qi, blood, and phlegm

stagnation and eliminate it, have we prevented cancer (the physical disease)

in that patient? But how are these higher-level physicians diagnosing and

treating if not using patterns, acupuncture and herbs to prevent these

physical diseases from manifesting?

Unfortunately, the majority of my patients come to me with some physical

ailments. Therefore is there a way for the " average physician " to use herbs

to treat the spiritual complaints? can I still treat through the heart if

they had a physical complaint? Or must I only treat patients who have no

physical disease if I am going to use this heart method.

Although this request might seem a little odd due to my recent posts, I am

honestly curious and would love to put a few of these case studies on my

website. I've never been against this sort of medicine, for I studied and

practiced shamanism myself in my early 20s which actually got me into

Chinese medicine. I just don't really get how to use it. My only beef has

been projecting modern ideas onto past cultures. But if we can put that

debate aside, maybe we all can learn from the people who are practicing this

stuff every day.

It would be helpful for me, and maybe others?, for such an answer to contain

actual cases and not just philosophical words. I guess I'm one of those guys

who needs to see something in action to really understand it.

What are peoples thoughts?

-Jason

On Behalf Of

Friday, April 09, 2010 11:55 AM

Re: Re: shen nong ben cao con't

Lonny actually insinuates a very interesting point that lies beneath the

discussion at large:

What kind of culture has Chinese medicine been practiced in during its long

history?

We are all greatly influenced by streams and currents of philosophies,

political ideologies, religions, and historical developments. The United

States is the archetype of a modern democracy, with its individualism, and

warring ideologies of secular materialism on one side and spiritual camps on

the other. China is still a communist country with a capitalist bent, with

its spiritual traditions less apparent at the surface. I know I am

generalizing, but I am trying to make a point.

That point is, was there such a separation between a Confucianist society

and its spiritual practices, rituals, and beliefs (or in some eras, a

Confucianist/Taoist/Buddhist society) and the practice of medicine? While

post Nei Jing medicine clearly had a naturalist bent, does that mean that

its authors and practitioners were secular materialists? The historical

evidence would clearly say not.

It is very difficult to see Chinese medicine through the lenses of the

societies in which it was practiced historically, especially after one

hundred years or more of biomedical influences, " Mr. Science " , the guo ming

dan and the communists. But the effort must be made.

It will make it easier for us to transcend our own cultural lenses.

April 10, 2010

There's the literal way of reading a passage from a text, which I agree with

most people, should be informed by the historical and cultural understanding

of who wrote the words, in what kind of medium, with context of author,

audience and intention. And there's the direct experience of what is

written, which is subjective, more difficult to quantify and more open to

debate. " Spiritual " discussion is even less clear-cut, because of its

etheric nature.

To use the " Word " again as an example, as in John 1:1, this word can be

interpreted as " textual or oral communication " , " divinity itself " , " the

deification of a person " or " the direct experience of divinity " , interpreted

by Gnostics differently than mainstream Christians. You could hang an

entire religion's bias based on one line in scripture and there are schools

of acupuncture that develop protocols based on a few lines in the Nei jing

or Nan jing as well.

Jason wrote: " It would be helpful for me, and maybe others?, for such an

answer to contain actual cases and not just philosophical words "

Lonny's 2nd book has several in-depth case-studies, relaying experiences

with certain kinds of issues and protocols that could be interpreted as

" spiritual " types of transformations. For instance, the Internal and

External Dragons treatments, which were supposedly passed down from a Korean

or Taiwanese doctor to Worsley, seems to be the closest thing that I've seen

in Chinese medicine to a literal or symbolic exorcism. I'm wondering if

this is how others see these protocols and if Lonny sees this protocol as

being used for more philosophical, spiritual and/or psychological means ?

Have others used the 13 ghost points to expel symbolic demons? Have you

seen these experiences from a material perspective (draining phlegm-fire) or

from another perspective (psychological, philosophical, spiritual)?

When you treat a patient, what is your primary goal, other than dealing with

their primary material complaint?

....life preservation?, life transformation?, helping them to fulfill their

destiny?, helping them to be whole in every moment? awareness of their

original face? gestalt? facing ego? connection with divinity?

....or is our job just to do physical medicine as well as we can and if we do

this well, there could be some good spiritual and psychological

side-effects.

K

April 10, 2010

John: When you treat a patient, what is your primary goal, other than dealing

with

their primary material complaint?

....life preservation? , life transformation? , helping them to fulfill their

destiny?, helping them to be whole in every moment? awareness of their

original face? gestalt? facing ego? connection with divinity?

....or is our job just to do physical medicine as well as we can and if we do

this well, there could be some good spiritual and psychological

side-effects.

Trevor: For me, it is about offering help in any means that I am capable of,

without any sort of attachment to an end result. My intention can be that this

person in front of me awakens to their most deepest, heart felt, " buddha

nature " . But if that process will happen through my support or not actually does

not matter. For one thing, I will not truly know.

When I lived in Tilopa Buddhist centre studying meditation back in the 90's, it

was taught that Compassion is a positive mind set, where by through the act of

being sensitive, or empathetic, to an others suffering, we develop a " positive "

wish and feeling that they will be free of it. Compassion was taught to be a

positive mind, a hopeful mind, one of knowing this person will someday actually

be free of their negative predicament and awaken to their deeper calm and whole

nature.

Having a positive mindset that is believing that a suffering person will some

day be Ultimately freed from their pain, helps clarify what my role is with this

person. I am here to help fulfill their journey to wholeness, which involves the

cessation of suffering. Whether this suffering is of a physical nature or

ultimately one of a Spiritual nature, where by they feel a sense of separation

from the life they live within.

Perhaps by just merely helping a person overcome their intense eczematous itch,

will help them sleep deeper, for which will lead to more energy and mental

clarity during the day, which will then inspire them to start taking meditation

classes at a local temple, which may then lead towards some type of deep and

profound inner transformation. Perhaps this person will then move on to become a

great Spiritual leader and teacher...... Perhaps helping someone over come their

itch is all it took.

Trevor

--- On Sat, 4/10/10, <johnkokko wrote:

<johnkokko

Re: Re: shen nong ben cao con't

Received: Saturday, April 10, 2010, 11:42 AM

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There's the literal way of reading a passage from a text, which I agree