RE: Ming=destiny? & daoism

[Guest guest]

Herman,

 

 

 

I've given this a little more thought and have searched through about 600 +

classical / pre-modern texts. Tian ming (ÌìÃü) is found only in a few

instances. For example, it appears in the Suwen as ³¤ÓÐÌìÃü(chang you tian

ming). This exact same phrase also appears in the ben cao gang mu.

 

 

 

You are correct that the NeiJing dictionary says that the definition here is

¡°natural lifespan/natural span of life/life span¡± not something about

destiny.

 

 

 

Reading through these examples makes your question about Unschuld¡¯s

interpretation even more interesting. For example we have the following line

from the ben cao gang mu:

 

 

 

¹ÇÕý½îÈᣬÆøѪÒÔÁ÷£¬ëíÀíÒÔÃÜ£¬¹ÇÆøÒÔ¾«£¬³¤ÓÐÌìÃü.

 

 

 

I have a hard time imagining that this ¡®tian ming¡¯ here means anything

more than long life. Can anyone envision something different?

 

 

 

SuWen commentary says things such as ÈÙÎÀÖ®ÐС£²»Ê§Æä³£¡£¿ÉÒÔ³¤¾ÃÆäÌìÃü.

This seems again simply long life.

 

 

 

** Does anyone (Herman?) have some specific Su wen commentary discussing ³¤

ÓÐÌìÃü (chang you tian ming).

 

 

 

However, I would not even begin to suggest that ming (Ãü) or tian ming

cannot have very profound and complicated meanings in Chinese history.

Historically, ming is understood as " command, " " allotted lifespan, " " fate, "

or " life. " It also is central to debates on the legitimacy of rulership and

is the ¡°crucial variable in Daoist manuals for prolonging one's life.¡±

Although many sinologists dislike the translation of ming as destiny,

instead favoring mandate. Clearly philosophical texts use ming and very

diverse ways. The interesting question to me are the differences between

philosophical texts and medical texts.

 

 

 

Philosophical texts generally are written for the elite. They contain very

elaborate discussions; everything from morality to enlightenment. Medical

texts have the main purpose of treating disease and saving lives, possibly

written with the treatment of the more common folk. For example, SHL experts

often talk about the formulas treating soldiers and common people, not the

elite. Hence, one find little if any philosophical discussion.

 

 

 

However, one can only wonder why medical texts in general did not contain

these elaborate philosophical discussions. Clearly censorship cannot be

claimed, otherwise philosophical texts, which give much more detail on such

esoteric issues, would have also been censored. The most likely reason, that

I can come up with, seems to be its major concern with just healing people

and saving lives.

 

 

 

Although there seems to be some debate on this list between the meanings of

a couple words here and there, I do not think anyone can deny the absence of

straightforward philosophical discourse in medical texts. In contrast,

opening up any Daoist cannon of a similar time period is packed full of

esoteric and spiritual passages. I think this has been one of Bob's main

points all along.

 

 

 

For example, one of the most well known daoists, Ma Dang-Yang (considered

one of the seven immortals), was also an acupuncturist who wrote about the

12 miraculous points. If there was any Chinese medicine doctor out there

that was going to talk about esoteric/spiritual type of medicine it would be

him. However, when he discussed these 12 acupuncture points, the

descriptions and indications for these points were all completely physical

with no mention of any spiritual connotations. Clearly, there is a

disconnect between the presentation of medicine and his presentation of

daoism/philosophy. Obviously, if Ma Dang-Yang thought that acupuncture or

herbs nourished destiny, or had anything to do with some spiritual/esoteric

pursuits, I think he would have had no hesitation mentioning this.

 

 

 

I talked to Charles Chace about this issue. The first thing of course he

asked was where were the sources for these opinions? But after we got past

the fact that much of this debate seems to rest on opinion we talked a bunch

about daoism and its interrelationship with medicine. He brought up the

interesting point when daoism discussed treating people with herbs and

acupuncture that they were not thinking about nourishing their destiny

(directly) but by making them as healthy as they could so that they could

live long and hence acquire enlightenment or whatever pursuit they thought

was important (by being as healthy as they could)- . But he also said when

it comes to Daoist philosophy, cannons, and ideas the amount of debate and

disagreement is a bigger mess than Chinese medicine. There's so many ideas

and contradictions in thought that clearly there is no right answer. Also it

should be noted that many daoist masters were against using acupuncture and

herbs on themselves and considered this type of treatment for the layman or

beginning taoist students.

 

 

 

Clearly, daoism Confucianism etc. have some impact on the development of

Chinese medicine. I guess the magical question is in what way, how much, and

what aspects, if any, were purposely held out. Any Unschuld scholars out

there want to chime in?

 

 

 

This whole discussion is great, any excuse to dive into NeiJing and its

commentaries is worthwhile to me...

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of aowenherman

Friday, March 05, 2010 11:35 PM

 

Re: Ming=destiny?

 

 

 

 

 

Lonny, Jason, Eric,

 

I wondered why Unschuld translates the two occurences of tian1ming4 in the

Suwen as 'mandate of heaven' in his dictionary whereas the Chinese

commentaries I have consulted explain it simply as meaning 'life' or

'natural life span' (context: end of Suwen 3 and 74), and looked it up in

his introduction to the Suwen where I found some very interesting remarks on

page 344. I thought of mentioning this as it is relevant for the ongoing

discussion.

 

Jason, I will (sooner or later) come back to your mail about the Neijing

dictionary and the list of definitions for shen2 and ming4 therein. Man,

you've got me studying!

 

N. Herman

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I want to correct an error from my previous (below) e-mail. Actually, Tian

ming (ÌìÃü) occurs in quite a few of these 600 texts (my search engine was

not set up properly on my new computer). For example, the pi wei lun in its

introduction quotes the su wen (... ³¤ÓÐÌìÃü)¡£ Bob, for example, translates

this as ¡° ...long life decreed by heaven.¡±- this meaning (or at least his

translation) is much different than the philosophical usage tian ming

(mandate of heaven).

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of

Sunday, March 07, 2010 10:30 AM

 

RE: Re: Ming=destiny? & daoism

 

 

 

 

 

Herman,

 

I've given this a little more thought and have searched through about 600 +

classical / pre-modern texts. Tian ming (ÌìÃü) is found only in a few

instances. For example, it appears in the Suwen as ³¤ÓÐÌìÃü(chang you tian

ming). This exact same phrase also appears in the ben cao gang mu.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese: ½÷ºÍÎå棬¹ÇÕý½îÈᣬÆøѪÒÔÁ÷£¬ëíÀíÒÔÃÜ£¬ ÈçÊÇÔò¹ÇÆøÒÔ¾«£¬½÷µÀÈç·¨£¬

³¤ÓÐÌìÃü¡£

 

Bob's translation: " With the five flavors kept balanced carefully, the bones

are straight and the sinews are flexible, qi and blood flow [freely], and

interstices are compact. Thus the bone qi is vigorous. Carefully following

these instructions, [one] will enjoy a long life decreed by heaven. "

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of

Sunday, March 07, 2010 6:57 PM

 

RE: Re: Ming=destiny? & daoism

 

 

 

 

 

I want to correct an error from my previous (below) e-mail. Actually, Tian

ming (ÌìÃü) occurs in quite a few of these 600 texts (my search engine was

not set up properly on my new computer). For example, the pi wei lun in its

introduction quotes the su wen (... ³¤ÓÐÌìÃü)¡£ Bob, for example, translates

this as ¡° ...long life decreed by heaven.¡±- this meaning (or at least his

translation) is much different than the philosophical usage tian ming

(mandate of heaven).

 

-Jason