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Ming=destiny?

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Lonny,

 

 

 

I don't think it is Bob or anyone else that is choosing to materialize a

character such as Ì¿ ¡Êming¡Ë. I think it is Lonny who is

choosing to go

against the grain and interpret it in a much more " esoteric " or " spiritual " .

Bob is simply understanding this term in the way that Chinese medicine

authorities have for thousands of years.

 

 

 

For example, Defrancis agrees that in modern times this character means life

or destiny, among other definitions. However, one cannot use a modern

dictionary, pick the definition they like, and insert it into classical

texts passages. Meaning, one cannot just assume that whenever they see̿

(ming) they are referring to destiny. Since Lonny does not read classical

Chinese I am a bit perplexed how he can be so certain about these

definitions and usages. Let us just look at a primary resource for

understanding the NeiJing.

 

 

 

For example, in the NeiJing there are four basic meanings for̿ (ming).

 

1. Life

 

2. A Name

 

3. an order or command, lecture or lesson

 

4. inborn; natural gift, talent

 

 

 

This is not my opinion, nor Bob's opinion. This is the consensus from over

2000 years on what this term actually means. If one decides= to disagree

because of whatever ¡Èrepressions¡É might have happened in the past.

One

will have to do some serious scholarship, with Chinese language of course,

to uncover the " truth " .

 

 

 

This is not to say that if you write 1500 pages about the word that your

book doesn't have clinical value. I'm sure people in the West (searching for

spirituality in life) love this. That is far from my argument.

 

But your sweeping statements of how classical Chinese writers MUST be

talking about " Spirit¡É and ¡Èdestiny¡É because a couple of

books (and I

mean a couple, <1%) use these words (shen and ming) in their opening texts

is in my opinion bad logic. NOTE SHL, JGYL, Nanjing and most texts do not

start with these words.

 

 

 

I am not about to say that classical authors did not have this concept and

were not thinking about this at some point in time. Actually, I have no

idea. However what we do know is that people much more in touch with these

books over years of the time said about these terms. From this we can safely

say they terms the majority of the time, if not all, do not have these

modernized spiritual connotations that people like to write about in the

West. Again, this is not to devalue these concepts but let us be clear on

where we are getting our information.

 

 

 

Finally just because the NeiJing starts off, as you say, by " living in

harmony with the laws of yin and yang¡É to meet gives new special credence

to your interpretation of shen and ming and ¡ÈS¡Épirit being the

basis for

everything written.

 

 

 

My two cents, take it with a grain of salt...

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Lonny

Friday, February 26, 2010 7:12 AM

 

Re: Research methodology and experimental design

 

 

 

While Bob may choose to impart a materialistic interpretation such as " life

span " to the character " ming " in a text such as the Shen Nong Ben Cao, who

has Proof with a capital " P " that my reading of the character as " destiny " ,

with all its Spiritual and philosophical connotations, is " wrong " or less

correct?. No one. Texts can be read at many levels of depth and they don't

exist in isolation but in a cultural and memetic, context.

 

-and-

 

That is why the beginning of many texts start by pointing toward, Spirit

(jia yi jing for example), Destiny (shen nong ben cao), and the biggest

possible picture (Nei jing " living in harmony with the laws of yin and yang "

with all that implies regarding consciousness and human choice).

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Jason

Thank you for your contributions to this discussion. You've made

many cogent points. I appreciate your measured and even-handed

approach.

 

Your point that we need to use dictionaries that are contemporary

to the text we site is of crucial importance. I think we also

need to consult other medical texts of the same period to gain

insight into what is being said.

 

My teacher always stressed that our primary function was

Alleviate suffering - as in physical suffering. There is no more

noble undertaking

In his preface, Zhang Zhongjing made it very clear that the

purpose of his book was to save lives.

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

www.shanghanlunseminars.com

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - Access all of your messages and folders

wherever you are

 

 

 

 

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Stephen,

I think that many would believe that there is a nobler undertaking than just

alleviating physical suffering.

As healers, trained in Chinese medicine, that may be our calling, but I'd

like to hear what others think.

In my experience, alleviating physical suffering is much easier than

alleviating apathy, addiction and attachment to

impermanence, illusion and ignorance, the root of all suffering.

Of course, this all depends on our intentions and the kind of work we're

doing on ourselves in this life.

 

There are several quotes from the classics stating that the superior

physician works on the " shen " and not just the physical.

I can get the references later. Thoughts?

 

K

 

 

 

On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 12:26 PM, stephen woodley <learntcmwrote:

 

>

>

> Jason

> Thank you for your contributions to this discussion. You've made

> many cogent points. I appreciate your measured and even-handed

> approach.

>

> Your point that we need to use dictionaries that are contemporary

> to the text we site is of crucial importance. I think we also

> need to consult other medical texts of the same period to gain

> insight into what is being said.

>

> My teacher always stressed that our primary function was

> Alleviate suffering - as in physical suffering. There is no more

> noble undertaking

> In his preface, Zhang Zhongjing made it very clear that the

> purpose of his book was to save lives.

>

> Stephen Woodley LAc

> www.shanghanlunseminars.com

>

> --

> http://www.fastmail.fm - Access all of your messages and folders

> wherever you are

>

>

>

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Maybe I am missing something here, but here's my take...

 

 

 

Practitioners that focus their treatments on the " emotional or spiritual "

often present with a bit of arrogance/superiority to practitioners who

" alleviate physical suffering " . (I really am not singling out any one here).

However, do we really think there is a difference between the physical and

emotional ? In my opinion, Chinese medicine makes much less of a distinction

between the mind, body, and spirit than we do here in the West. The more I

think about it the more I find this conversation a bit odd. If one treats

the physical one of course treats the emotional and what some people call

spiritual. This is basic Chinese medicine and Chinese medicine integrates

all of these into one system. Actually, not to keep talking about Ye

Tian-Shi, but many of the recent case studies on constraint that I have

posted on my website demonstrate these principles.

 

 

 

I can assure you that I have hundreds of patients that will testify that I

alleviated their emotional and spiritual symptoms, however, I just used

basic Chinese medicine. I quite simply treat the pattern in front of me. If

there is phlegm heat with food stagnation I transform phlegm, clear heat,

reduce food stagnation, and transform accumulation. As simple as this may

be, treating the presenting patterns not only eliminates physical symptoms

but all of the integrated psycho-emotional stuff that goes along with it.

Often such patients are coming to me with serious/semi-serious internal

medicine problems and through treatment these other things just get better.

Is this any surprise?

 

 

 

Interestingly sometimes, patients come to me with a emotional and even

spiritual chief complaint (often because I helped a friend of theirs with a

similar issue). I almost always explain how the physical, emotional, and

spiritual are all related. Chinese medicine is really good at understanding

this integration and is truly holistic, unlike most Western thought and

therapies (even alternative). After explaining how their symptoms are

related I treat using CM and presto. I don't have to get wrapped up into any

spiritual trip and the patients are happy.

 

 

 

Actually, I find that this " spiritual " aspect to human existence, as Lonnie

and many others on the group do, extremely important. However, I purposely

try not to superimpose my spiritual belief system onto the medicine (there

is no need) or onto my patients. Getting their body in balance (treating

their patterns), hence alleviating physical symptoms, allows their own

development to take shape in which ever way it is meant to be (hence

alleviating their psycho-spiritual symptoms). To think I have any control or

actually can treat their spirit directly, in my opinion, is a bit arrogant.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of

Sunday, February 28, 2010 4:47 PM

 

Re: Ming=destiny?

 

 

 

 

 

Stephen,

I think that many would believe that there is a nobler undertaking than just

alleviating physical suffering.

As healers, trained in Chinese medicine, that may be our calling, but I'd

like to hear what others think.

In my experience, alleviating physical suffering is much easier than

alleviating apathy, addiction and attachment to

impermanence, illusion and ignorance, the root of all suffering.

Of course, this all depends on our intentions and the kind of work we're

doing on ourselves in this life.

 

There are several quotes from the classics stating that the superior

physician works on the " shen " and not just the physical.

I can get the references later. Thoughts?

 

K

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Here is a quote:

" The essentials of needling are easy to explain but difficult to master in

practice. The mediocre practitioner abides by the form, but the superior

abides by the spirit. Oh, spirit, the guest passes with it through the same

door! Without a study of the illness, how can one understand its source? "

(from the Jia yi jing translated by Charles Chace and Yang

Shou-Zhong...derived from Ling shu chapter 38)

 

Footnote: " Form here refers to the apparent signs and symptoms. Spirit

here implies the true Qi or correct Qi and the guest implies evil Qi. The

door refers to the coming and going or the waxing and waning of the correct

and evil Qi. "

 

Based on your interpretation of this passage, from a materialistic or

spiritualist perspective, one thing for sure is that the Ling shu makes a

distinction between two ways of treating the same patient.

 

K

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John, Jason and all

 

John:

I think that many would believe that there is a nobler

undertaking than just

alleviating physical suffering.

 

Stephen:

I know many would believe this. I am disagreeing with that

opinion.

" just alleviating physical suffering: "

Just?

" I can't put the dishes back in the cupboard " " I can't go hiking

because my knee hurts too much "

profuse menstruation, infertility, hemorrhoids, IBS, Crohn's

I mean I could list physical ailments for an hour...don't know

how we could use the word " just " .

 

how to say this? I am very clumsy at these discussions -

Why is there a Shi Xiao San?

sudden smile/laughter powder - alleviate the pain so well that

the patient suddenly smiles - happy - emotional - Shen

We can give a formula to make someone sweat and they will sweat

in short order. You can think about sweating for hours and not

bust a sweat.

Jason:

However, I purposely try not to superimpose my spiritual belief

system onto the medicine (there

is no need) or onto my patients...

To think I have any control or actually can treat their spirit

directly, in my opinion, is a bit arrogant.

 

Stephen:

Well put.

I have my own spiritual beliefs - they are a huge part of who I

am.

What if your dentist wanted to impose his/her spirituality into

your annual cleaning? What if your MD decided that she/he wanted

to alleviate what they consider to be your ignorance?

Who is to judge who is ignorant?

 

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - Access all of your messages and folders

wherever you are

 

 

 

 

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Stephen,

This is a fascinating discussion... comparing the classics philosophical

basis.

As we know, the Su wen has a Naturalist approach, which was incorporated by

religious Daoists sects, as well as Lao Tse and the Yin-Yang school

influencing the authors of the Su wen itself.

 

From the Zhang Zhong-Jing preface of the Shang han lun

(pg. 31 Mitchell, Ye, Wiseman translation): Zhang Zhong-Jing writes....

" Confucius says: Those who know naturally from birth are greatest; those

who (understand through) study are second to them; those who understand

through listening broadly to learned opinion are inferior. "

 

Either the preface was not written by ZZJ, or ZZJ was influenced by

Confucius. This would make sense in the light of seeing the noblest duty

we have is to preserve life for our fellow human-kind. This is much more

of a Confucian virtue vs. Daoist and Buddhist goals.

 

Confucius was very practical and although he talked about spirits, it was

less about exorcising demons as it was appeasing ancestors and community.

 

K

 

 

 

On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 12:26 PM, stephen woodley <learntcmwrote:

 

>

>

> Jason

> Thank you for your contributions to this discussion. You've made

> many cogent points. I appreciate your measured and even-handed

> approach.

>

> Your point that we need to use dictionaries that are contemporary

> to the text we site is of crucial importance. I think we also

> need to consult other medical texts of the same period to gain

> insight into what is being said.

>

> My teacher always stressed that our primary function was

> Alleviate suffering - as in physical suffering. There is no more

> noble undertaking

> In his preface, Zhang Zhongjing made it very clear that the

> purpose of his book was to save lives.

>

> Stephen Woodley LAc

> www.shanghanlunseminars.com

>

> --

> http://www.fastmail.fm - Access all of your messages and folders

> wherever you are

>

>

>

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Well said Jason :-)

 

Trevor

, " " wrote:

>

> Maybe I am missing something here, but here's my take...

>

>

>

> Practitioners that focus their treatments on the " emotional or spiritual "

> often present with a bit of arrogance/superiority to practitioners who

> " alleviate physical suffering " . (I really am not singling out any one here).

> However, do we really think there is a difference between the physical and

> emotional ? In my opinion, Chinese medicine makes much less of a distinction

> between the mind, body, and spirit than we do here in the West. The more I

> think about it the more I find this conversation a bit odd. If one treats

> the physical one of course treats the emotional and what some people call

> spiritual. This is basic Chinese medicine and Chinese medicine integrates

> all of these into one system. Actually, not to keep talking about Ye

> Tian-Shi, but many of the recent case studies on constraint that I have

> posted on my website demonstrate these principles.

>

>

>

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Stephen,

I think Chinese medicine is different than dentistry or even biomedicine. I

agree, of course, as previously stated, that our job is not to impose 'beliefs'

on patients. But if our own self-cultivation or practice is working in our

lives, it will reflect in compassion expressed in our work with our patients, a

deep caring and motivation to help people heal themselves with the tools we've

learned.

 

 

On Feb 28, 2010, at 8:03 PM, stephen woodley wrote:

 

> Stephen:

> Well put.

> I have my own spiritual beliefs - they are a huge part of who I

> am.

> What if your dentist wanted to impose his/her spirituality into

> your annual cleaning? What if your MD decided that she/he wanted

> to alleviate what they consider to be your ignorance?

> Who is to judge who is ignorant?

>

> Stephen Woodley LAc

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Stephen,

Yes... I never impose my religious beliefs onto my patients, but

spiritually, I think that there is a connection that can happen which may be

verbal or non-verbal and is universal.

I listed the quote from the Ling shu. I don't think that the ancients were

saying we need to be enlightened to do the medicine, but that we should be

aware and attentive and have correct Qi in our methodologies.

 

Our shared teacher of the Shang han lun said something that I think is

pertinent to the discussion:

It's faster and easier to change someone's spirit-mind through herbs and

physical means

than trying to change their body by talking with them and trying to change

their mind.

 

In other words, " it's more effective to treat the body to treat the

mind than treating the mind to treat the body. "

 

These are wise words, in my book.

Don't disregard the spirit, but use skillful means in the process.

 

K

 

 

 

 

On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 8:03 PM, stephen woodley <learntcmwrote:

 

>

>

> John, Jason and all

>

> John:

>

> I think that many would believe that there is a nobler

> undertaking than just

> alleviating physical suffering.

>

> Stephen:

> I know many would believe this. I am disagreeing with that

> opinion.

> " just alleviating physical suffering: "

> Just?

> " I can't put the dishes back in the cupboard " " I can't go hiking

> because my knee hurts too much "

> profuse menstruation, infertility, hemorrhoids, IBS, Crohn's

> I mean I could list physical ailments for an hour...don't know

> how we could use the word " just " .

>

> how to say this? I am very clumsy at these discussions -

> Why is there a Shi Xiao San?

> sudden smile/laughter powder - alleviate the pain so well that

> the patient suddenly smiles - happy - emotional - Shen

> We can give a formula to make someone sweat and they will sweat

> in short order. You can think about sweating for hours and not

> bust a sweat.

> Jason:

>

> However, I purposely try not to superimpose my spiritual belief

> system onto the medicine (there

> is no need) or onto my patients...

>

> To think I have any control or actually can treat their spirit

> directly, in my opinion, is a bit arrogant.

>

> Stephen:

> Well put.

> I have my own spiritual beliefs - they are a huge part of who I

> am.

> What if your dentist wanted to impose his/her spirituality into

> your annual cleaning? What if your MD decided that she/he wanted

> to alleviate what they consider to be your ignorance?

> Who is to judge who is ignorant?

>

> Stephen Woodley LAc

>

>

> --

> http://www.fastmail.fm - Access all of your messages and folders

> wherever you are

>

>

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Guest guest

I agree Jason.

I wrote a paper this year on using heat clearing herbs to calm the spirit that

echos your point below.

 

just treat the pattern!

 

Cara

 

 

 

On Mar 1, 2010, at 1:30 AM, trevor_erikson wrote:

 

> Well said Jason :-)

>

> Trevor

> , " "

wrote:

> >

> > Maybe I am missing something here, but here's my take...

> >

> >

> >

> > Practitioners that focus their treatments on the " emotional or spiritual "

> > often present with a bit of arrogance/superiority to practitioners who

> > " alleviate physical suffering " . (I really am not singling out any one here).

> > However, do we really think there is a difference between the physical and

> > emotional ? In my opinion, Chinese medicine makes much less of a distinction

> > between the mind, body, and spirit than we do here in the West. The more I

> > think about it the more I find this conversation a bit odd. If one treats

> > the physical one of course treats the emotional and what some people call

> > spiritual. This is basic Chinese medicine and Chinese medicine integrates

> > all of these into one system. Actually, not to keep talking about Ye

> > Tian-Shi, but many of the recent case studies on constraint that I have

> > posted on my website demonstrate these principles.

> >

> >

> >

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Guest guest

Z'ev or others,

 

 

 

I unfortunately have sent back Unschuld¡Çs Nei Jing dictionary, so if it

is

not too much trouble could someone post how he translates̿

(ming). I am just curious here since he has spent a good portion of his life

translating the Nei Jing.

 

 

 

Just in case my previous post was not clear. The definitions I presented are

from a Chinese Nei Jing dictionary. Just so people don't get confused, such

a dictionary is not just some person's opinion on what these terms mean. For

example, not only is it a consensus of understanding throughout over 1000

years it takes into consideration medical books at that time period,

dictionaries throughout the centuries focusing on han dynasty, historical

commentaries on the NeiJing, cultural influences, and even sometimes

anthropological data that is uncovered. It is no small task. To challenge

such a work would not only be bold, but to be taken seriously would require

a life dedication to the topic and of course fluency in Chinese.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of

Sunday, February 28, 2010 7:16 AM

 

Ming=destiny?

 

 

 

 

 

 

For example, in the NeiJing there are four basic meanings for̿ (ming).

 

1. Life

 

2. A Name

 

3. an order or command, lecture or lesson

 

4. inborn; natural gift, talent

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Guest guest

Z'ev

Z'ev:

....if our own self-cultivation or practice is working in our

lives, it will reflect in compassion expressed in our work with

our patients...

 

Stephen:

Of course, it should reflect in all that we do and all we come in

contact with...silently, inside. I think that, when carried

properly, nobody knows what my belief system is. It doesn't

belong in a clinic of any kind.

 

Z'ev

I think Chinese medicine is different than dentistry or even

biomedicine.

 

Stephen:

Interesting. Aside from the obvious paradigm differences, how?

Aren't we practicing medicine?

I know some MDs and DDSs who are quite dedicated in their

spiritual cultivation, but their patients have no idea except

that they are great people.

Wouldn't our profession be healthier if practitioners saw

themselves as doctors of Chinese medicine? (I know, we are not

supposed to say doctor)

Maybe I am missing your point?

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - Email service worth paying for. Try it for free

 

 

 

 

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Guest guest

Hey Kokko

Kokko

" it's more effective to treat the body to treat the mind than

treating the mind to treat the body. "

 

Stephen

Absolutely agree...so we should focus our energy as practitioners

on discerning patterns, knowing what to do and skillfully

carrying out that treatment.

Certainly the Confuscian and Daoist influences on Chinese

medicine are profound. I don't think that Buddhism has played a

very significant role as it wasn't present in China during the

Han Dynasty.

 

Speaking of our shared teacher...

when watching him teach and observing him treat patients, one

never gets a clue of his profound dedication to his spiritual

path. As I believe it should be.

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - Same, same, but different...

 

 

 

 

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Guest guest

Jason,

 

As you know, Unschuld's dictionary gives the Chinese contexts but no

definitions. Does your Neijing dictionary give contexts for the listed meanings?

(Some of the meanings for shen and ming that you quoted I find it hard to find

contexts for).

 

Here are the words used for ming4 in PUU's work:

 

- orders

- fate

- life

- to name, to call, to term

- to determine

 

chang2 ming4 long life

shou4 ming4 life span

tian1 ming4 mandate of heaven

 

Best,

 

N. Herman

 

, " " wrote:

>s

> Z'ev or others,

>

>

>

> I unfortunately have sent back Unschuld~{!G~}s Nei Jing dictionary, so if it

is

> not too much trouble could someone post how he translates~{L?~}

> (ming). I am just curious here since he has spent a good portion of his life

> translating the Nei Jing.

>

>

>

> Just in case my previous post was not clear. The definitions I presented are

> from a Chinese Nei Jing dictionary. Just so people don't get confused, such

> a dictionary is not just some person's opinion on what these terms mean. For

> example, not only is it a consensus of understanding throughout over 1000

> years it takes into consideration medical books at that time period,

> dictionaries throughout the centuries focusing on han dynasty, historical

> commentaries on the NeiJing, cultural influences, and even sometimes

> anthropological data that is uncovered. It is no small task. To challenge

> such a work would not only be bold, but to be taken seriously would require

> a life dedication to the topic and of course fluency in Chinese.

>

>

>

> -Jason

>

>

>

>

> On Behalf Of

> Sunday, February 28, 2010 7:16 AM

>

> Ming=destiny?

For example, in the NeiJing there are four basic meanings for~{L?~} (ming).

>

> 1. Life

>

> 2. A Name

>

> 3. an order or command, lecture or lesson

>

> 4. inborn; natural gift, talent

 

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Guest guest

Unschuld translates Ming as Name.

 

Trevor

 

, " " wrote:

>

> Z'ev or others,

>

>

>

> I unfortunately have sent back Unschuld¡Çs Nei Jing dictionary, so if it is

> not too much trouble could someone post how he translates̿

> (ming). I am just curious here since he has spent a good portion of his life

> translating the Nei Jing.

>

>

>

> Just in case my previous post was not clear. The definitions I presented are

> from a Chinese Nei Jing dictionary. Just so people don't get confused, such

> a dictionary is not just some person's opinion on what these terms mean. For

> example, not only is it a consensus of understanding throughout over 1000

> years it takes into consideration medical books at that time period,

> dictionaries throughout the centuries focusing on han dynasty, historical

> commentaries on the NeiJing, cultural influences, and even sometimes

> anthropological data that is uncovered. It is no small task. To challenge

> such a work would not only be bold, but to be taken seriously would require

> a life dedication to the topic and of course fluency in Chinese.

>

>

>

> -Jason

>

>

>

>

> On Behalf Of

> Sunday, February 28, 2010 7:16 AM

>

> Ming=destiny?

For example, in the NeiJing there are four basic meanings for̿ (ming).

>

> 1. Life

>

> 2. A Name

>

> 3. an order or command, lecture or lesson

>

> 4. inborn; natural gift, talent

 

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Guest guest

You and Jason are correct, but it takes a lot of knowledge and experience to

recognize the patterns and pathomechanisms correctly. Jason's site has some

case histories from Ye Tian-shi that are amazingly elegant in their simplicity,

but it comes from a deep, penetrating knowledge of all the various currents of

Chinese medicine that he examined.

 

 

On Mar 1, 2010, at 4:36 AM, cara wrote:

 

> I agree Jason.

> I wrote a paper this year on using heat clearing herbs to calm the spirit that

echos your point below.

>

> just treat the pattern!

>

> Cara

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

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Guest guest

Jason,

Paul Unschuld translates 命 ming as (depending on context) orders, fate,

life, gate of life (ming men), or as verb to call, to give title, or determine.

.. . we can say fate is a synonym for destiny, I would presume. . .

 

Z'ev

On Mar 1, 2010, at 5:34 AM, wrote:

 

> Z'ev or others,

>

> I unfortunately have sent back Unschuld’s Nei Jing dictionary, so if it is

> not too much trouble could someone post how he translates命

> (ming). I am just curious here since he has spent a good portion of his life

> translating the Nei Jing.

>

> Just in case my previous post was not clear. The definitions I presented are

> from a Chinese Nei Jing dictionary. Just so people don't get confused, such

> a dictionary is not just some person's opinion on what these terms mean. For

> example, not only is it a consensus of understanding throughout over 1000

> years it takes into consideration medical books at that time period,

> dictionaries throughout the centuries focusing on han dynasty, historical

> commentaries on the NeiJing, cultural influences, and even sometimes

> anthropological data that is uncovered. It is no small task. To challenge

> such a work would not only be bold, but to be taken seriously would require

> a life dedication to the topic and of course fluency in Chinese.

>

> -Jason

>

>

> On Behalf Of

> Sunday, February 28, 2010 7:16 AM

>

> Ming=destiny?

>

> For example, in the NeiJing there are four basic meanings for命 (ming).

>

> 1. Life

>

> 2. A Name

>

> 3. an order or command, lecture or lesson

>

> 4. inborn; natural gift, talent

>

>

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Herman,

 

Yes there are contexts for each usage. Which ones are you having trouble

understanding contexts for? Do you have a NJ dictionary?

 

-Jason

 

 

> ----

> aowenherman <aowenherman

>

> Re: Ming=destiny?

> 01 Mar '10 15:58

>

> Jason,

>

> As you know, Unschuld's dictionary gives the Chinese contexts but no

> definitions. Does your Neijing dictionary give contexts for the listed

> meanings? (Some of the meanings for shen and ming that you quoted I find it

> hard to find contexts for).

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Jason,

Thanks for the well written words

Sharon

 

, cara <herbbabe wrote:

>

> I agree Jason.

> I wrote a paper this year on using heat clearing herbs to calm the spirit

that echos your point below.

>

> just treat the pattern!

>

> Cara

>

> > >

> >

> >

>

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, " trevor_erikson " <trevor_erikson

wrote:

>

> Unschuld translates Ming as Name.

>

>

 

Lonny: It's a totally different character. Destiny (ming) is given through the

ascribing of name (ming) and enlightenment (ming) happens from waking up from

sleep (ming) through meditation (ming) to see through the name (ming) to the

light (ming) of destiny (ming). All different characters though.

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just treat the pattern!

 

Lonny: I would say that what is at issue is 1. What observations are potentially

included in the pattern? 2. What context is the pattern being held in? and most

importantly 3. What is the pattern being referenced to?

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Jason,

 

For & #31070; shen2, your NJ dictionary gives seven meanings:

 

shen2 (¿À) ¡Êspirit¡ËIn the NeiJing has seven basic

definitions:

 

1. essence-spirit

2. magical, miraculous

3. smart or intelligent

4. extremely clever

5. the attention of the physician

6. the natural law of things

7. the body's correct qi

 

ad 1. So, shen2 in the meaning of jing1shen2? I would like to learn where and

why shen2 means jing1 shen2 in the Neijing. If the list of meanings is

exhaustive, this meaning would apply to many instances of shen2 and then the

question arises: What is the difference between shen2 and jing1shen2? A

complicating factor can be that some people read essence-spirit and others

essence and spirit.

 

ad 3. and 4. I can't see why these should be separated as different meanings but

well.

`Having spirituality' (I found that somewhere in Unschuld as translation of the

first occurrence of shen2 in the Suwen) could replace all of this, couldn't it?

 

ad 5. Is that a definition of shen2?

 

ad 6. ?? idem

 

ad 7. Ah, yes, directly from Linshu 3: & #31070; & #32773;

& #27491; & #27683; & #20063; & #23458; & #32773; & #37034; & #27683; & #20063;

The spirit is right (Unschuld: proper) qi4; the guest / visitor is evil qi4.

 

ad 1.-7., in general:

How can a list like this help you understand /translate, for instance, phrases

like & #29572; & #29983; & #31070; & #31070; & #22312; & #22825; & #28858; & #39080;

& #22312; & #22320; & #28858; & #26408; & #22312; & #39636; & #28858; & #31563; (etc.) in

Suwen 5, 66 & 67, or terms like & #39740; & #31070; (appearing in Suwen 11 & 25)?

 

How would we read & #24515; & #34255; & #31070; when we have to /want to choose from

these definitions? Heart stores essence-spirit? Is that a clarification of

`Heart stores spirit'? (Both phrases appear in the Neijing, maybe they mean

exactly the same, je ne sais pas).

 

Why is there no definition amongst these seven that reflects shen2 as a

nonmaterial constituent of the organism (at least not in a direct and clear

way)?

 

By the way, Suwen 66 gives an interesting definition:

 

& #38512; & #38525; & #19981; & #28204; & #35586; & #20043; & #31070;

The unfathomable(ness) of yin and yang is called spirit.

 

 

About ming4:

 

The list you quoted from the dictionary reads:

 

1. Life

 

2. A Name

 

3. an order or command, lecture or lesson

 

4. inborn; natural gift, talent

 

 

ad 2. verbal usage

 

ad 3. lecture? lesson? hm, `(imperative) instruction' is maybe better...

 

ad 4. I would like to see a context with this meaning of ming4.

 

In general: no `fate' or `destiny' here.

 

---

 

I use several commentated editions of the Neijing. The dictionaries I've seen

in China were not particularly helpful but sometimes the modern Chinese

commentaries are, or the versions rewritten in modern Chinese. Working with

Unschuld's dictionary, especially in combination with his introduction to the

Suwen, has helped me solve translation problems in quite a few instances and

continues to be valuable in other ways as well. I agree with others on this

list that it would be fantastic to make Zhang Jingyue's Leijing available in

English. If we start now with a collective of translators and other specialists

we might even be able to beat the publication date of Unschuld's Suwen

translation (joking). Anyway, I haven't heard about any follow-up after

Stephen's suggestion for fund-raising (a few weeks ago on this list).

 

Can you give the full title of the dictionary you quoted from? Does someone

else use a Neijing dictionary that she or he finds helpful?

 

Best Wishes,

 

N. Herman

 

 

, " " wrote:

>

> Herman,

>

> Yes there are contexts for each usage. Which ones are you having trouble

understanding contexts for? Do you have a NJ dictionary?

>

> -Jason

>

>

> > ----

> > aowenherman <aowenherman

> >

> > Re: Ming=destiny?

> > 01 Mar '10 15:58

> >

> > Jason,

> >

> > As you know, Unschuld's dictionary gives the Chinese contexts but no

> > definitions. Does your Neijing dictionary give contexts for the listed

> > meanings? (Some of the meanings for shen and ming that you quoted I find it

> > hard to find contexts for).

>

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Lonny,

 

 

 

Ming (Ì¿) can be translated as ¡Èa name¡É in the Nei Jing.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Lonny

Tuesday, March 02, 2010 5:40 AM

 

Re: Ming=destiny?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

<%40> , " trevor_erikson "

<trevor_erikson wrote:

>

> Unschuld translates Ming as Name.

>

>

 

Lonny: It's a totally different character. Destiny (ming) is given through

the ascribing of name (ming) and enlightenment (ming) happens from waking up

from sleep (ming) through meditation (ming) to see through the name (ming)

to the light (ming) of destiny (ming). All different characters though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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