Guest guest Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 Thanks for your work Nicolaas. I heard there was an old translation into Latin of the Zhen Jiu Da Chang in Europe- possibly 18th century.... Does anyone know how that translation is, and if it influenced European medicine at that time? eric On Feb 1, 2010, at 9:37 AM, aowenherman wrote: > John, and All, > > You wrote: > > > > We need Zhang Jing Yue's " Lei jing " in translation. > > > > and: > > >Can you imagine that after 35 years of having acupuncture licensed in this country, we still don't have a translation of the Zhen jiu da cheng by Yang Ji Zhou or the Jing yue quan shu by Zhang Jing Yue ? > > There are people like me who are ready to pick up these projects. There is work being done on the Zhen jiu da cheng right now and part of it appeared on cm-db.com. > > If our field provided funding for translations of such important texts I would start the work today. > > Nicolaas Herman Oving > > (currently working on an annotated translation of Xue zheng lun) > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Hi All, I am with Herman. There are people that are ready to do this work, but no one will work for free. If we " need " these texts then " we " need to pay to have them translated. The biggest reason why our profession does not have more original source material translated from Chinese to English, is because simply put -- we want someone else to pay for it. In Oregon we have a group -- it is called the 1000 friends of Oregon. These people saw something that needed to be done (in my state), and they joined together and were able to achieve it. Some people provided financial support, others provided labor. Translation is no different. 1000 of us that were committed for the long haul could achieve in less then one lifetime, what hasn't happened in our medicine for the last 35+ years that the medicine has been in the West. I have decided in my own life, that I have to quit saying " We need to ... " do anything. What I have decided is if I want something done, I either need to lend my support to someone who is " doing it " or start it myself, so people can lend their support to me. When I was in school, I couldn't understand why there weren't more " jing " s translated. If you haven't gone to the Database and looked at the number of texts that are in Chinese waiting to be translated, it is worth a look (and these are just the texts I have found, who knows what is really out there). At 100,000 characters of translation per month, we could have all of the material on this list (http://cm-db.com/acquired.php)translated in 29 years. At a rate of 300,000 characters a month, we could do it in 10 years. That is a total of 34,903,716 characters translated. The alternative, is that just like the last 35 years, we will be lucky if we get another handful of classics translated. The 1000 people that I am looking for, know that this is a long term project. Like all ideas, we will only benefit once we can hit critical mass, and I will tell you that critical mass only begins after 200 people in this business. There are a number of you on this listserv that are with me, but I am still asking " Who's with me?! " Lets not just talk about what " we need to do " -- lets do it! Zhen Jiu Da Cheng first 5 volumes will be out by June of this year. I am putting my full energy behind getting the Classics out, but in order to do that I need all of your support. If after the Classics are translated, then we as a profession, want to move on, then fine. But at least all of us will know where we came from, and thus know where we are going. Sincerely, L.Ac. The Database > > John, and All, > > You wrote: > > > > We need Zhang Jing Yue's " Lei jing " in translation. > > > > and: > > >Can you imagine that after 35 years of having acupuncture licensed in this country, we still don't have a translation of the Zhen jiu da cheng by Yang Ji Zhou or the Jing yue quan shu by Zhang Jing Yue ? > > There are people like me who are ready to pick up these projects. There is work being done on the Zhen jiu da cheng right now and part of it appeared on cm-db.com. > > If our field provided funding for translations of such important texts I would start the work today. > > Nicolaas Herman Oving > > (currently working on an annotated translation of Xue zheng lun) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Steven, Thanks for the thorough answer. Yes, it's 81, not 108... that's my buddhist side speaking from automatic writing. 81 is also 3 to the fourth power... 3 being the trine that Jeffrey Yuen speaks about so much... heaven, human, earth... wei qi, ying qi, yuan qi etc. 108 is 1 to the 1st power x 2 to the second power x 3 to the third power = 1 x 4 x 27 = 108 So, it's interesting that the Daoist 81 is 27 x 3, while the Buddhist 108 is 27 x 4. I disagree though on de-valuing the Jia Yi Jing as a " jing " . This book should be taught in every TCM school, as the most organized text book compilation of the classics, including some that are not available today. I wrote a review of the Blue poppy translation on Amazon. Jonathon, will the Zhen jiu da cheng be available in print form in June? Nicolaas, thanks for the good work that you and the other translators are doing and not getting the recognition that musicians and actors are getting by patting themselves on the back. Your work is of great benefit to all of us, especially those of us who are not sinologists, but benefit clinically from your sweat labor. K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Hi Jonathan and Herman There are 1800 members in this group - if each member donated $20 it would be $36K Open a paypal account for donations and I'll donate as soon as you provide the link Stephen Woodley LAc www.shanghanlunseminars.com -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Hi John, Volume 5 of the Zhen Jiu Da cheng will be available for retail sales in a month. Volume 1 for retail sales in 2 months. And volume 2-4 by mid summer sometime. Sincerely, Jonathan , <johnkokko wrote: > > Steven, > Thanks for the thorough answer. Yes, it's 81, not 108... that's my buddhist > side speaking from automatic writing. 81 is also 3 to the fourth power... > 3 being the trine that Jeffrey Yuen speaks about so much... heaven, human, > earth... wei qi, ying qi, yuan qi etc. > 108 is 1 to the 1st power x 2 to the second power x 3 to the third power = 1 > x 4 x 27 = 108 > > So, it's interesting that the Daoist 81 is 27 x 3, while the Buddhist 108 is > 27 x 4. > > I disagree though on de-valuing the Jia Yi Jing as a " jing " . This book > should be taught in every TCM school, as the most organized text book > compilation of the classics, including some that are not available today. I > wrote a review of the Blue poppy translation on Amazon. > > Jonathon, will the Zhen jiu da cheng be available in print form in June? > > Nicolaas, thanks for the good work that you and the other translators are > doing and not getting the recognition that musicians and actors are getting > by patting themselves on the back. Your work is of great benefit to all of > us, especially those of us who are not sinologists, but benefit clinically > from your sweat labor. > > K > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Jonathon, I agree that we need to support our translators and their efforts. Another commitment we can make as a profession is to learn medical Chinese, so that we can translate for ourselves. While it will still be just as essential to translate medical classics, as it is a specific professional skill that requires much research, time and money to fulfill, at least we could look up lines in a Chinese text and use them as needed as source materials. I've been doing this more and more on my own. On Feb 2, 2010, at 10:25 AM, Chinese Medicine wrote: > Hi All, > > I am with Herman. There are people that are ready to do this work, but no one will work for free. > > If we " need " these texts then " we " need to pay to have them translated. > > The biggest reason why our profession does not have more original source material translated from Chinese to English, is because simply put -- we want someone else to pay for it. > > In Oregon we have a group -- it is called the 1000 friends of Oregon. These people saw something that needed to be done (in my state), and they joined together and were able to achieve it. Some people provided financial support, others provided labor. > > Translation is no different. 1000 of us that were committed for the long haul could achieve in less then one lifetime, what hasn't happened in our medicine for the last 35+ years that the medicine has been in the West. > > I have decided in my own life, that I have to quit saying " We need to ... " do anything. What I have decided is if I want something done, I either need to lend my support to someone who is " doing it " or start it myself, so people can lend their support to me. When I was in school, I couldn't understand why there weren't more " jing " s translated. If you haven't gone to the Database and looked at the number of texts that are in Chinese waiting to be translated, it is worth a look (and these are just the texts I have found, who knows what is really out there). > > At 100,000 characters of translation per month, we could have all of the material on this list (http://cm-db.com/acquired.php)translated in 29 years. At a rate of 300,000 characters a month, we could do it in 10 years. That is a total of 34,903,716 characters translated. The alternative, is that just like the last 35 years, we will be lucky if we get another handful of classics translated. The 1000 people that I am looking for, know that this is a long term project. Like all ideas, we will only benefit once we can hit critical mass, and I will tell you that critical mass only begins after 200 people in this business. > > There are a number of you on this listserv that are with me, but I am still asking " Who's with me?! " Lets not just talk about what " we need to do " -- lets do it! Zhen Jiu Da Cheng first 5 volumes will be out by June of this year. I am putting my full energy behind getting the Classics out, but in order to do that I need all of your support. If after the Classics are translated, then we as a profession, want to move on, then fine. But at least all of us will know where we came from, and thus know where we are going. > > Sincerely, > > L.Ac. > The Database > > > > > John, and All, > > > > You wrote: > > > > > > We need Zhang Jing Yue's " Lei jing " in translation. > > > > > > > and: > > > > >Can you imagine that after 35 years of having acupuncture licensed in this country, we still don't have a translation of the Zhen jiu da cheng by Yang Ji Zhou or the Jing yue quan shu by Zhang Jing Yue ? > > > > There are people like me who are ready to pick up these projects. There is work being done on the Zhen jiu da cheng right now and part of it appeared on cm-db.com. > > > > If our field provided funding for translations of such important texts I would start the work today. > > > > Nicolaas Herman Oving > > > > (currently working on an annotated translation of Xue zheng lun) > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 John, Z'ev, et. al., I think you misunderstood a bit of my posting about classics: I disagree though on de-valuing the Jia Yi Jing as a " jing " . This book should be taught in every TCM school, as the most organized text book compilation of the classics, including some that are not available today. I wrote a review of the Blue poppy translation on Amazon. I'm not in any way demeaning Jiayijing. In fact, I agree that it is very organized, and should be taught in " every TCM " school. However, I don't think it invites as much deep contemplation as a classic (jing). I consider the use of that term a very high standard. I also revere Shang Han Lun, which is not a jing; neither are many other valuable and important texts. I agree very much on the need for more translations. Even though I consider scholarship ALONE potentially very misleading, I believe it's a very important part of learning -- along with practice and contemplation. I'm glad Z'ev encouraged me to join Johnathan's cm-db, and encourage others to as well. I haven't had time recently to work with it, but I'm pleased to support their efforts. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Hi Z'ev, I agree with you that learning medical Chinese would be the primary goal. But so many students and practitioners are overwhelmed with school or just trying to keep their business afloat. I had a chance meeting with another practitioner last night who also translates, and their assertion was that the majority of us will never be sinologists, but if we were lucky we could be practitioners who understood a little Chinese. I brought this up with one of my translators today, and she mad the point that we all have to know our limits. I can read enough Chinese now, to tell you what the nouns in a sentence are pretty accurately. But I would not feel comfortable relying on one of my personal " translations " for medical advice -- that is why we have to hire the pros like Herman, etc. to do it for us. In my opinion we need their kind of skill to bring out the complexity of a text. As always, the conversation is good. Jonathan , Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 Steve, You wrote: < I also revere Shang Han Lun, > which is not a jing; neither are many other valuable and important texts.> Just for the record: It is not necessary for a text to have 'jing1' in its title to be considered as a 'classic', and, the other way round, when a text has 'jing1' in its title it does not necessarily mean that the text is considered to be a 'classic'. In other words, a 'jing1' is not a 'jing1' because it is named a 'jing1' . Nicolaas Herman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 Jonathan, I couldn't agree more, we need our professional translators. In fact, I think our schools should be training not only practitioners, but translators, pharmacists, 'nurses' and other important specialties within our profession. At the same time, having basic medical Chinese skills allows us to check translations, and with some help, cull essential information from Chinese texts that otherwise may never be 'excavated'. That would be a shame. On Feb 2, 2010, at 5:22 PM, Chinese Medicine wrote: > Hi Z'ev, > > I agree with you that learning medical Chinese would be the primary goal. But so many students and practitioners are overwhelmed with school or just trying to keep their business afloat. I had a chance meeting with another practitioner last night who also translates, and their assertion was that the majority of us will never be sinologists, but if we were lucky we could be practitioners who understood a little Chinese. I brought this up with one of my translators today, and she mad the point that we all have to know our limits. I can read enough Chinese now, to tell you what the nouns in a sentence are pretty accurately. But I would not feel comfortable relying on one of my personal " translations " for medical advice -- that is why we have to hire the pros like Herman, etc. to do it for us. In my opinion we need their kind of skill to bring out the complexity of a text. > > As always, the conversation is good. > > Jonathan Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 Very interesting idea, Z'ev. I love your inspiration on how to help ground Chinese medicine into our society. Perhaps we should talk about that. Steve On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 7:50 AM, <zrosenbe wrote: > > > Jonathan, > I couldn't agree more, we need our professional translators. In fact, I > think our schools should be training not only practitioners, but > translators, pharmacists, 'nurses' and other important specialties within > our profession. At the same time, having basic medical Chinese skills allows > us to check translations, and with some help, cull essential information > from Chinese texts that otherwise may never be 'excavated'. That would be a > shame. > > > > On Feb 2, 2010, at 5:22 PM, Chinese Medicine wrote: > > > Hi Z'ev, > > > > I agree with you that learning medical Chinese would be the primary goal. > But so many students and practitioners are overwhelmed with school or just > trying to keep their business afloat. I had a chance meeting with another > practitioner last night who also translates, and their assertion was that > the majority of us will never be sinologists, but if we were lucky we could > be practitioners who understood a little Chinese. I brought this up with one > of my translators today, and she mad the point that we all have to know our > limits. I can read enough Chinese now, to tell you what the nouns in a > sentence are pretty accurately. But I would not feel comfortable relying on > one of my personal " translations " for medical advice -- that is why we have > to hire the pros like Herman, etc. to do it for us. In my opinion we need > their kind of skill to bring out the complexity of a text. > > > > As always, the conversation is good. > > > > Jonathan > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 Yes. That's basically what I said about the Jiayijing (in my opinion). Steve On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 7:49 AM, aowenherman <aowenherman wrote: > > > Steve, > > > You wrote: > > < I also revere Shang Han Lun, > > which is not a jing; neither are many other valuable and important > texts.> > > Just for the record: It is not necessary for a text to have 'jing1' in its > title to be considered as a 'classic', and, the other way round, when a text > has 'jing1' in its title it does not necessarily mean that the text is > considered to be a 'classic'. In other words, a 'jing1' is not a 'jing1' > because it is named a 'jing1' . > > Nicolaas Herman > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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