teaching diagnostic thought process

[Guest guest]

Doug,

 

 

 

What does " above the form " mean? Can you give an example? Those PMPH books

have never excited me very much, but I am open to hearing more about this

one. What do you like most about it?

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

Acupuncture

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of

Sunday, January 10, 2010 3:09 PM

 

Re: teaching diagnostic thought process

 

 

 

 

 

Jason and others, You may enjoy looking at a relatively new book from PMPH

called, " Clinical Reasoning in " which is very good for an

" above the form " look at diagnostics.

Doug

 

 

Clinical Reasoning in

By Hu Zhen, Dong Fei-xia

Detail

Date Jul 2008

Language English-Chinese

Format 170 mm x 230 mm, 228pages

ISBN 978-7-117-10205-6/R.10206

 

 

<%40> , " "

wrote:

>

> Trevor,

>

>

>

> You gave me some inspiration for taking the next step of what I have been

> planning to do in regard to case studies. It is true I like to take

clinical

> notes in a journal. I also routinely go through my charts trying to

evaluate

> better why something worked or did not work. Since I have digital copies

of

> my charts it is fairly easy to convert this into something others can read

> and provide feedback (something I missed)/ learn from etc. I have put the

> first attempt at this process on my website:

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine/case-studies/chronic-constraint-fire-jb/

>

> ......................................

 

> -

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thea,

 

 

 

The best thing is to get actual textual examples of where " tu xue " is used

in some broader (e.g. spiritual/emotional - or whatever) context, then we

can read the Chinese and evaluate.

 

 

 

Hope that helps you,

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Thea Elijah

Sunday, January 10, 2010 4:12 AM

 

Re: Re: teaching diagnostic thought process

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Jan 9, 2010, at 10:38 PM, wrote:

 

> However, since there has been nothing really presented that lends me

> (personally) to believe that " tu xue " has some hidden meanings, I

> chose to

> just bail out and wait for something (for example more tangible like a

> Chinese passage) to come down the pipe, instead of getting wrapped

> up into

> endless philosophical discussion. Quite simply, no one is debating

> that there is not the

> possibility of wider range of interpretations of many Chinese

> passages. This

> goes without saying. I (and others) are only talking about specific

> terms.

> Hence we are at a standstill and without some specific items to talk

> about,

> I see no resolution (at least in my mind). Others can obviously

> disagree.

 

If you like, you could respond to my invitation to ask E. Rochat a

clear question on the topic. That is still out on the floor,

waiting. I, for one, will not be easy inside myself unless I know

that the question I am asking her is " clear " by your standards.

 

Thea Elijah

 

[

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jason,

 

Please forgive me for putting words in your mouth, and for apparently not fully

understanding your position on this topic. I merely meant to use the " way " that

you " tend " to post on this list. As I stated in my original post, " Jason, please

forgive me for putting words in your mouth, but you act on this list as the

analytical (left brain) archetype and thus the perfect person to use in this

example, hope you can accept this as a mere example and I am not saying you said

this only that you tend to say things like this, and there is nothing wrong with

the things that you say or the questions that you ask, they are quite valid. "

There was never any malicious intent.

 

I have no problem with your argument regarding " tuxue " " & #21520; & #34880; " I

agree, in fact, that if someone puts forth an idea that bends away from what has

been said, I want to see some evidence that this idea is based in reality. But,

I also like to try to stay as open as possible to anything that comes down the

pike.

 

I think what everyone has said in this thread has validity and I honor all who

participate in this list. I don't post much these days because I am extremely

busy but I do read most of posts.

 

So, Happy New Year to all and keep up the good work.

 

In Good Health,

Thomas

 

, " " wrote:

>

> Thomas,

>

> There is no question you have misinterpreted my stance and are putting words

> into " my mouth " . I have never questioned, nor proposed any counter argument,

> for using right brain, intuition, meditation, contemplation, or whatever

> else you want to add to the list, it in the practice of medicine (or life).

> Quite frankly, I find it essential (utilize it daily) and do not remotely

> share the stance that you portray from myself. Misinterpreting my silence on

> my artistic/right brain practices, for only relying on analytical methods,

> is just incorrect.

[Guest guest]

Thomas,

 

 

 

It is true that I generally post from a very logical and rational

perspective, and probably will continue to do so. Since Chinese medicine is

a very rational and logical system, I try to respect the thought process

inherent in it. This is first and foremost. However, I am not discounting

anything " right-brain. " Quite simply, when one is debating technical

information in Chinese medicine one must have a sound foundation in logic.

If not, to just explain clearly their realizations that may have come about

from some right brain experience. As stated, Einstein would spend years, if

not his whole life, explaining a momentary glimpse of enlightenment. The

problem is, many people who have these glimpses are not geniuses and are

just experiencing an incorrect reality. This is why we must spend energy on

the left side of the brain to evaluate it.

 

 

 

Secondarily, I find it of little value for me to try to explain things from

a purely right brain approach. If I present a case study, and I tell you

that I picked an acu point because I felt the qi in that channel was boggy

and the point itself was activated, it does you, the reader, little good.

Although this might be exactly what I did in the clinic (and I often do) it

gives no insight to my thinking and only to the way that I sensed the point.

You have no " true " idea what I mean by boggy or activated point. There is

only one way to demonstrate this, and that is to be shown. Consequently,

because of the medium we are communicating in (e-mail) it seems futile to

try to engage on this level and precisely why I do not participate on

acupuncture discussion groups.

 

 

 

Finally, when it comes to herbs, I find there is less room to expand and

create (at least for the functions, diagnosis, terms, etc.) if one steps out

of the mainstream one must be prepared to present evidence. Of course I feel

that the creating comes in putting it all together and writing a formula. I

do not think I have ever made up a function of the herb (nor made up a

pattern), and have never felt the need to. Patterns are so well established

in Chinese medicine who am I to buck the trend?

 

 

 

With the wide range of ideas (scales) available in Chinese medicine one can

easily learn to play jazz (without making anything up, new scales), but also

as many do, one can just prescribe stock formulas and still get decent

results. Maybe this has a lot to do with personality?

 

 

 

I am just curious what others think about this?

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Acupuncture

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of

Sunday, January 10, 2010 9:04 PM

 

Re: teaching diagnostic thought process

 

 

 

 

 

Jason,

 

Please forgive me for putting words in your mouth, and for apparently not

fully understanding your position on this topic. I merely meant to use the

" way " that you " tend " to post on this list. As I stated in my original post,

" Jason, please forgive me for putting words in your mouth, but you act on

this list as the analytical (left brain) archetype and thus the perfect

person to use in this example, hope you can accept this as a mere example

and I am not saying you said this only that you tend to say things like

this, and there is nothing wrong with the things that you say or the

questions that you ask, they are quite valid. " There was never any malicious

intent.

 

I have no problem with your argument regarding " tuxue " " & #21520; & #34880; " I

agree, in fact, that if someone puts forth an idea that bends away from what

has been said, I want to see some evidence that this idea is based in

reality. But, I also like to try to stay as open as possible to anything

that comes down the pike.

 

I think what everyone has said in this thread has validity and I honor all

who participate in this list. I don't post much these days because I am

extremely busy but I do read most of posts.

 

So, Happy New Year to all and keep up the good work.

 

In Good Health,

Thomas