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Esoteric Herbology Book?

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Jason,

who is EC?

and how do we know that smearing doggie doo-doo on our eyes under a full

moon doesn't treat night-blindness? :) why bat feces, but not dog feces?

 

I agree with your skepticism of oral teachings, as I am skeptical about

everything, including Jeffrey Yuen, doggie doo-doo, the Nei jing, research

coming out from China, things my teachers told me in school and out of

school, advertised studies from the JAMA, stuff on this email group,

thoughts in my head, God-Dao, enlightenment, evolution, global warming etc.

I'm skeptical, but I do believe in the things that I've seen work over and

over again and I've got to have some faith that the people who wrote the

jings and luns knew something that was worth writing down on silk or bamboo

scrolls and more importantly preserving for longer than Jesus has been

around.

At the same time, were the ones who wrote the Yellow emperor into the Nei

jing's Q and A saying that the information was divinely inspired by this

divine source? or were they just trying to prevent it from getting burned

to warm some cold bones? Was the agenda to create some sense of

cohesiveness among disparate oral teachings?

If Jeffrey has to intro the Nei jing class with " I'm a daoist master " , why

did the Nei jing authors feel like they had to have a divine narrator?

Btw... Jeffrey says that he's not a Neijing expert in those transcripts,

that he taught the class 3 times up to that point in 2000, that 2 weekends

is not enough time to talk deeply about the content of the Su wen and that

everything in life is colored with the perspective of the speaker, including

his own talk. I would suggest that you read those transcripts... It's

actually much more textual than the Co-Q, glycine and glutathione

statements... Which talk is this from? I definitely don't think it's

responsible for us to make medical statements like that without real

research and peer review.

Concerning C) from your statement, just because things haven't been written

down, doesn't mean it isn't true. In fact, most esoteric knowledge, which

was the beginning of this whole discussion, is still passed orally or kept

so secretly that you and I wouldn't even get the chance to read it. It's

definitely not available in the New age section at Barnes and Nobles.

That's the whole idea of the " secret book " . Other esoteric schools orally

relay the interpretation of exoteric texts. The rituals themselves are

visual enactments of the teachings. How do I know this stuff? Because a

little birdie told me....

Why would Jeffrey Yuen, say that he is telling the truth and the information

he talks about is really part of his school's lineage, why would he go

public with all of this?

Either he thinks that it's time for the book to be opened per se or he's

just trying to make a name for himself. Maybe we should ask him.

I'm definitely not for hero/ guru worship, which i've personally seen a bit

of...

the problem is that if you ask the worshipper a question, they can't answer

except to say.. " well.. my teacher is so and so... " ... " Well, what do they

say? " ... " uh... I don't know. "

Then why have you been studying with this guy for the last 10 years of your

life?

 

Here is my original letter clarifying my stance on this subject. The last

questions would be interesting to think about:

 

" Jason,

J. Yuen's education background is an example of a non-institutionalized

education, which in my book can be more credible than getting a degree from

a state-run school. I say that because some of the best physicians I know

learned through their families (blood or adopted) and not from a college.

Aside from the daoist priesthood, on his jadepurityfoundation.org website,

he claims an 8 year apprenticeship through his herbal teacher, Gong

Song-Liu, who was a eunuch for the last 2 Qing dynasty emperors and himself

apprenticed with the imperial medical physicians.

 

I agree that titles don't mean very much, but lineage does. It takes some

karmic currency to become a lineage holder, yet I agree with you that being

a daoist priest doesn't necessarily make you an expert on all things medical

or spiritual. It definitely doesn't give you a license to make up stuff and

pass it off as holy writ. Having a title is actually a huge responsibility

and possibly a deep liability. It's true that there are many

self-proclaimed masters, lineage holders and legalistic experts on the

planet. But, for some reason, many people are drawn to J. Yuen's words

and humble persona. There's something intuitively correct about his

teachings in the eyes of many practitioners and there aren't many people in

our field who are seeing things outside of the box or even through a

classical lens. Do you think J.Yuen's teachings would be popular in China?

or is his popularity in America due to a lack of something in ourselves?

What's your explanation? "

 

K

 

 

 

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Thea wrote

>

> The part that is not yet semantically clear to me is the difference

> between treating the pattern, and treating the disease name. As far

> as I know, what I do is treat the pattern. The disease name does not

> matter e.g. psoriasis. But I think you mean something different by

> disease name.

>

>

 

I think more must be taken into consideration than the " pattern " in clinical

work with Chinese herbalism. And maybe we should be clear on what " pattern "

means to us.

 

There are the " disease factors " such as blood stasis, Yin deficiency, Qi stasis

etc. Even if it is the pattern giving rise to the pattern, it seems like this

is what you are referring to as the pattern? For the sake of this discussion, I

am calling this the disease factor. (this is from the Qin Bo Wei anthology

translated by Chase)

 

Then there is the " location " of the problem. So if someone comes in with chest

pain. We may diagnose the disease factor a blood stasis but, unless we direct

the formula to the right location, we will be pretty ineffective. So the

formula would need to be directed to the chest in this case. Locations could be

anything from the shoulder to the chest to the Kidney to the luo vessels to the

Shao Yang etc.

 

Then there is the " symptom " . The symptom might be pain and then we want to make

sure we are stopping pain. A patient may have hot phlegm (disease factor) in

the chest (location) causing cough (symptom) or it could be causing shortness of

breath or chest oppression. The formula would be a least somewhat different for

the different symptoms.

 

Then there is the " person " . One person who has a hot phlegm in the chest cough

may be treated very differently from another type of person who has the same

disease factor, location and symptom. One person may be a weak person who

sweats easily and tends to constipation. Another person may be robust and never

sweat.

 

Then there is also what Trevor is talking about which is the " disease " . Though

of course we treat according to all the above and put and " disease " in the

context of all of the above, diseases exist and are really important in Chinese

medicine. So Trevor mentions psoriasis vs. eczema. There are also Chinese

diseases such as lilly disease and lung wilt. There are certain herbs that are

especially good for certain diseases. When one's foundation in diagnosing and

applying formulas for disease factors, symptoms and locations is sound, then

there is a lot of subtlety to be learned regarding the treatment of diseases

themselves.

 

I think when Trevor was referring to people treating any dry skin issue as blood

deficiency, he was also showing how a rudimentary and simplistic understanding

of diagnosis that 1. makes dry skin and blood deficiency forever linked 2. does

not see beyond the disease factor - is pretty low level herbalism and will most

often obtain poor results. Am I right Trevor? On the other hand, very often in

the clinic, we don't need to take diseases into account.

 

A " presentation " is a group of signs and symptoms that can indicate a particular

formula and they indicate certain disease factors, symptoms and locations. But

even a presentation is taken in context of the type of person, the acuteness or

chronic nature of the issue etc.

 

I'll give an example from my own clinical experience that happened to be

successful (I don't want to give the impression that I always get results like

this because I don't!) In Yang Ming Stomach presentation there is big thirst,

big sweat, big fever and big pulse. We generally think of this in terms of

acute illnesses. However, I recently worked with a woman who was diagnosed with

Hashimoto's hyperthyroid syndrome. She had a pale complexion, soft voice and a

pale tongue. Her symptoms were agitation/insomnia, frequent bowel movements, an

aversion to heat, tendency to sweat, thirst and a moderate pulse. From my point

of view, based on studying with Dr. Huang Huang, this was a Yang Ming Stomach

chronic presentation with thirst, sweat, heat and a bigger pulse than her

constitution represented. So, in this case I gave her Bai Hu Tang modified to

supplement her Spleen Qi. (I actually don't think of Shi Gao as cooling or

damaging to the Spleen but rather as venting stagnant heat from Yang Ming but

that's another discussion) This was very effective and within two months her

thyroid levels were normal and all her symptoms were better.

 

So in this case the " disease factors " were heat and Qi deficiency. The

" location " was Spleen and Stomach, the " symptoms " were thirst,

agitation/insomnia, aversion to heat and frequent bowel movements and the

" disease " was Hashimoto's hyperthyroid. The " presentation " was Bai Hu Tang

presentation. In this case I did not need to treat the disease but I did need

to make sure it was getting better.

 

In other words, there is so much more than the " pattern " that we must take into

account. To summarize:

Disease factor

Symptom

Location

Type of person

Presentation

Disease

 

 

 

Sharon

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" I'd like to address the issue of what kinds of statements regarding

psycho-spiritual issues seem faulty to me and which kinds don't. I want to

do this because it doesn't seem right that those who have a problem with

faulty statements are made out to be anti-psycho-spiritual or even worse

" fundamentalists " (yikes!). "

 

 

 

Sharon, I really appreciate your thinking on these issues. They clarified a

lot of similar thoughts I've had as well. Of what value is it to assign

special emotional or spiritual qualities to herbs and formulas since these

should already implicit in the broader use of these based on a comprehensive

pattern diagnosis.

 

 

 

Roy Upton noticing a comment in Bensky's latest book that Xiao Yao Wan arose

out of the context of people feeling frustrated with their socio-political

circumstances of the time caused him to write Bensky and say how much more

valuable that information is than simply to say that it is used for stagnant

or irregular qi.

 

 

 

It would really be interesting to learn more how and why certain formulas

were created don't you think?

 

 

 

Michael Tierra

 

 

 

 

 

 

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>

>

> Can somebody who has studied with him discuss how the 10 personality types

> of the herbs were formulated?

>

> K

>

>

 

Hi K

 

I don't think " personality types " is quite accurate to Dr. Huang Huang's

teachings. These are more like formula families. Some of the families have

personalities somewhat associated with them such as the Chai Hu or Ban Xia

families - but other's like Shi Gao or Gan Jiang don't really.

 

Best

 

Sharon

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> 1) It is my understanding that Dr. Huang developed this system to teach MDs

> in Japan that had little understanding of Chinese herbs. This system is

> cohesive enough that they could start using it right away.

>

>

 

>

> -

>

>

>

>

>

>

Hi Jason,

 

I think Michael Max would be much more of an authority on this than me but I do

know that the teachings of Dr. Huang on the formula families has a lot of

precedent and lineage associated with it. Arnaud also talks about the history

of grouping the formulas into families. I have a book by Xu Lingtai who was one

of Huang Huang's predecessors who very much thinks this way. I think that when

there is this kind of grouping, the formulas are easier to teach to those

without a deep background but this way of thinking was not created for the

purpose of teaching this way.

 

Sharon

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" Finally, if J. Yuen, or anyone else for that matter, presents an idea that

makes little sense from the volumes of Chinese medicine past and present

texts, this must be examined and questioned. Just because someone is a

" daoist priest " and believes in the " deeper meaning in Chinese medicine "

gives them in my opinion no free pass. Proponents of oral traditions often

say things such as, we can't just believe it because it's written down on a

piece of paper, somehow devaluing the rigor of CM's past. Let us not forget

that things written down on a piece of paper are evaluated by tens of

thousands of doctors over sometimes 1800+ years. This is no small matter.

Oral tradition on the contrary has no check and balance system. In quite

simply, because of this, it should be questioned with even more strictness.

It seems too often that because it is " oral tradition " that somehow it is

from the word of God and must be true because their grandfather said it was

so. Ha. "

 

 

 

Jason, I couldn't agree with you more. Nothing wrong with scrutinizing and

critiquing each other's ideas and the entire way that TCM is presented for

that matter. As to Jeffrey Yuen, I have found his ideas insightful and

intriguing, not often clinical practical with the exception I offer below

with his stagnation removing formula that he claimed his teacher gave to

everyone as a first level of treatment regardless of individual pattern

their presentation. I think what most of us are having problems with here is

the notion of applying essential oil on acupoints and claiming this to be a

therapeutically effective mode. There is little or not precedent for such an

approach traditionally so we wonder if he is not just " making it up " and if

he is, he should say so and not claim some oral daoist lineage that no one

can dispute.

 

 

 

As for me, daoist, can mean anything. My first herb teacher Foon Lee Wong

was a taoist working on a side street adjoining golden Gate Park. There was

no avenue at the time in the US for studying Chinese herbs but Efrem

Korngold and I jointly studied with him briefly at the cost of $1 an herb -

we did $10 sessions so ten herbs at a time which consisted of him

translating a Chinese materia medica text. We had no idea what the herb even

was because he only mentioned them in Chinese with no Latin equivalents. He

was a daoist, tai chi, acupuncture, herbs, calligraphy, perhaps some brush

painting and music. Everything was back room as the whole operation was

illegal. He claimed great success showing photographs and endorsements of

famous people, politicos and so forth from throughout the country who sought

his care. So far as we could tell, herbally he treated everyone with high

quality and high priced wild-grown ginseng, each root costing a minimum of

$600 to $1500 taken in a day after doing a week on liu wei.

 

 

 

This was his clinical strategy and he evidently achieved considerable

success with it.

 

 

 

Ayurvedic doctors prescribe the formula triphala to every patient regardless

of the individual constitution because it clears all excesses without

causing deficiencies. It's the greatest of all herbal formulas in my

estimation.

 

 

 

When people attend Chinese medicine school they are systematically exposed

to a lot of herbs, formulas and so forth much of which is forgotten 6 months

after passing the exam. Bob Flaws and other experienced practitioners say

how advanced herbalists use relatively few formulas. We look at the history

of TCM and learn about Li gong yuan, Zhu Dan Zhi, and others but I wonder if

they did not narrow down the huge tradition of TCM to implement a strategy

they hit upon that seemed most appropriate for their time as exemplified by

their formulas.

 

 

 

My point is that there is a difference between the academic approach to TCM

and its practical clinical use and people tend to adopt it to suit what

works best for them.

 

 

 

If we attend a seminar on TCM and we're an advanced practitioner, there may

be only a few 'gems' that we walk away with and it seems that for many

Jeffrey Yuen's individual non-academic approach based on whatever daoist

oral tradition, it just that. Obviously its caused a lot of people to think

on this forum and that is a good thing in itself.

 

 

 

 

 

I have found little practical value to Jeffrey's teaching but I would still

consider him one of the most interesting and original teachers. I'm not into

aromatherapy and don't feel inclined to go in that direction. Actually one

practical thing I received from him as a stagnation removing formula passed

on to him by his teacher who purportedly gave it to every patient as a first

level of treatment, regardless of pattern diagnosis. During the class he

didn't know the formula but he subsequently mailed it to me and I thought

some of you might find it interesting and useful.

 

 

 

Gui zhi 6g

 

Bo he 4g

 

Bai shao yao 6-9

 

Fang feng 6-9

 

Chuan Xiong 6-0

 

Fu ling 6-9

 

Bai zhi 6-9

 

Ban xia 6-9

 

Zhi Ke 3-6

 

Jie geng 6-9

 

Chen pi 3-6

 

Xiang fu 6-9

 

Xi yang shen 6

 

Zhi gan cao 3-6

 

 

 

He said it was based on Yue qu wan

 

 

 

The point here is herbal strategy and this strategy involves removing in a

balanced way any of the 5 stagnations that would impede healing before

possibly prescribing the indicated formula.

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Thanks Sharon,

I look forward to reading his formula families book trans. by Michael Max.

and your translation as well.

 

K

 

 

On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 3:56 PM, swzoe2000 <sweiz wrote:

 

>

>

>

>

> >

> >

> > Can somebody who has studied with him discuss how the 10 personality

> types

> > of the herbs were formulated?

> >

> > K

> >

> >

>

> Hi K

>

> I don't think " personality types " is quite accurate to Dr. Huang Huang's

> teachings. These are more like formula families. Some of the families have

> personalities somewhat associated with them such as the Chai Hu or Ban Xia

> families - but other's like Shi Gao or Gan Jiang don't really.

>

> Best

>

> Sharon

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

 

 

""

 

 

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

 

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Wow. What a great discussion. Through the fall it seemed CHA was slow and I

thought " oh, OK, people are busy " and then this innocent question sparks

fantastic threads of thought. I'm just sitting back observing but even as we

have to say all these authors, past and present, Jefferey Yuen and others are a

part of a long CM tradition, now so are we in our virtual esoteric herbal

tearoom of CHA.

Doug

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Michael,

I think the context in which formulas were designed is more important than the

simplified 'actions and indications' of those formulas.

 

It is like looking at the blueprints or notebooks of architects rather than the

finished architecture. Formulas have their specific architecture, and they

arise out of the mind and strategy of the physician, as well as the times they

lived in.

 

For me, artist's notebooks such as Leonardo da Vinci are more interesting than

the finished paintings. . . they show the thought process before the action. .

 

 

 

 

On Jan 3, 2010, at 3:54 PM, Michael Tierra wrote:

 

> " I'd like to address the issue of what kinds of statements regarding

> psycho-spiritual issues seem faulty to me and which kinds don't. I want to

> do this because it doesn't seem right that those who have a problem with

> faulty statements are made out to be anti-psycho-spiritual or even worse

> " fundamentalists " (yikes!). "

>

> Sharon, I really appreciate your thinking on these issues. They clarified a

> lot of similar thoughts I've had as well. Of what value is it to assign

> special emotional or spiritual qualities to herbs and formulas since these

> should already implicit in the broader use of these based on a comprehensive

> pattern diagnosis.

>

> Roy Upton noticing a comment in Bensky's latest book that Xiao Yao Wan arose

> out of the context of people feeling frustrated with their socio-political

> circumstances of the time caused him to write Bensky and say how much more

> valuable that information is than simply to say that it is used for stagnant

> or irregular qi.

>

> It would really be interesting to learn more how and why certain formulas

> were created don't you think?

>

> Michael Tierra

>

>

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Michael,

Thanks for sharing the formula,

but it doesn't look much like Yue ju wan.. by Zhu Dan-Xi...

 

How long do you prescribe triphala for your patients?

Can you take it on a chronic basis?

 

Thanks,

K

 

 

 

On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 4:53 PM, Michael Tierra <mtierrawrote:

 

>..................ng in itself.

>

> I have found little practical value to Jeffrey's teaching but I would still

> consider him one of the most interesting and original teachers. I'm not

> into

> aromatherapy and don't feel inclined to go in that direction. Actually one

> practical thing I received from him as a stagnation removing formula passed

> on to him by his teacher who purportedly gave it to every patient as a

> first

> level of treatment, regardless of pattern diagnosis. During the class he

> didn't know the formula but he subsequently mailed it to me and I thought

> some of you might find it interesting and useful.

>

> Gui zhi 6g

>

> Bo he 4g

>

> Bai shao yao 6-9

>

> Fang feng 6-9

>

> Chuan Xiong 6-0

>

> Fu ling 6-9

>

> Bai zhi 6-9

>

> Ban xia 6-9

>

> Zhi Ke 3-6

>

> Jie geng 6-9

>

> Chen pi 3-6

>

> Xiang fu 6-9

>

> Xi yang shen 6

>

> Zhi gan cao 3-6

>

> He said it was based on Yue qu wan

>

> The point here is herbal strategy and this strategy involves removing in a

> balanced way any of the 5 stagnations that would impede healing before

> possibly prescribing the indicated formula.

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

 

 

""

 

 

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

 

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, " swzoe2000 " <sweiz wrote:

>

> Hi all,

>

> I'd like to address the issue of what kinds of statements regarding

psycho-spiritual issues seem faulty to me and which kinds don't. I want to do

this because it doesn't seem right that those who have a problem with faulty

statements are made out to be anti-psycho-spirtual or even worse

" fundamentalists " (yikes!).

 

Great post, Sharon!

 

Eric

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Right on -- wonderful description. Do you have a source where that kind of

information might be available? It would sure make a great book.

 

 

 

On Behalf Of

Sunday, January 03, 2010 7:08 PM

 

Re: Re: Esoteric Herbology Book?

 

Michael,

I think the context in which formulas were designed is more important than

the simplified 'actions and indications' of those formulas.

 

It is like looking at the blueprints or notebooks of architects rather than

the finished architecture. Formulas have their specific architecture, and

they arise out of the mind and strategy of the physician, as well as the

times they lived in.

 

For me, artist's notebooks such as Leonardo da Vinci are more interesting

than the finished paintings. . . they show the thought process before the

action. .

 

 

 

 

On Jan 3, 2010, at 3:54 PM, Michael Tierra wrote:

 

> " I'd like to address the issue of what kinds of statements regarding

> psycho-spiritual issues seem faulty to me and which kinds don't. I want to

> do this because it doesn't seem right that those who have a problem with

> faulty statements are made out to be anti-psycho-spiritual or even worse

> " fundamentalists " (yikes!). "

>

> Sharon, I really appreciate your thinking on these issues. They clarified

a

> lot of similar thoughts I've had as well. Of what value is it to assign

> special emotional or spiritual qualities to herbs and formulas since these

> should already implicit in the broader use of these based on a

comprehensive

> pattern diagnosis.

>

> Roy Upton noticing a comment in Bensky's latest book that Xiao Yao Wan

arose

> out of the context of people feeling frustrated with their socio-political

> circumstances of the time caused him to write Bensky and say how much more

> valuable that information is than simply to say that it is used for

stagnant

> or irregular qi.

>

> It would really be interesting to learn more how and why certain formulas

> were created don't you think?

>

> Michael Tierra

>

>

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One of my projects that I am working on bit by bit. .

 

Z'ev

On Jan 3, 2010, at 10:02 PM, Michael Tierra wrote:

 

> Right on -- wonderful description. Do you have a source where that kind of

> information might be available? It would sure make a great book.

>

>

>

> On Behalf Of

> Sunday, January 03, 2010 7:08 PM

>

> Re: Re: Esoteric Herbology Book?

>

> Michael,

> I think the context in which formulas were designed is more important than

> the simplified 'actions and indications' of those formulas.

>

> It is like looking at the blueprints or notebooks of architects rather than

> the finished architecture. Formulas have their specific architecture, and

> they arise out of the mind and strategy of the physician, as well as the

> times they lived in.

>

> For me, artist's notebooks such as Leonardo da Vinci are more interesting

> than the finished paintings. . . they show the thought process before the

> action. .

>

>

>

> On Jan 3, 2010, at 3:54 PM, Michael Tierra wrote:

>

> > " I'd like to address the issue of what kinds of statements regarding

> > psycho-spiritual issues seem faulty to me and which kinds don't. I want to

> > do this because it doesn't seem right that those who have a problem with

> > faulty statements are made out to be anti-psycho-spiritual or even worse

> > " fundamentalists " (yikes!). "

> >

> > Sharon, I really appreciate your thinking on these issues. They clarified

> a

> > lot of similar thoughts I've had as well. Of what value is it to assign

> > special emotional or spiritual qualities to herbs and formulas since these

> > should already implicit in the broader use of these based on a

> comprehensive

> > pattern diagnosis.

> >

> > Roy Upton noticing a comment in Bensky's latest book that Xiao Yao Wan

> arose

> > out of the context of people feeling frustrated with their socio-political

> > circumstances of the time caused him to write Bensky and say how much more

> > valuable that information is than simply to say that it is used for

> stagnant

> > or irregular qi.

> >

> > It would really be interesting to learn more how and why certain formulas

> > were created don't you think?

> >

> > Michael Tierra

> >

> >

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I've often wanted books like this also, it seems at times everything is so

contrived so teachers can look good and impress others or just sell books. It's

so important to show how your thinking, right or wrong if your showing the

thought process it can be much easier to learn or challenge. Not many want to be

this vulnerable. This group is a good example of this, it's so invigorating to

see all these ideas flying every direction. These conversations may be the book

that should be published Michael!PE

--- On Sun, 1/3/10, Michael Tierra <mtierra wrote:

 

Michael Tierra <mtierra

RE: Re: Esoteric Herbology Book?

 

Sunday, January 3, 2010, 10:02 PM

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On Behalf Of

Sunday, January 03, 2010 8:19 PM

 

Re: Re: Esoteric Herbology Book?

 

 

 

 

 

Michael,

Thanks for sharing the formula,

but it doesn't look much like Yue ju wan.. by Zhu Dan-Xi...

 

 

 

You know I completely agree and wondered if Jeffrey's comparison was not

specifically to the formula but the general strategy of removing stagnation.

I note the inclusion of Xi Yang shen which I think is to counteract the

dryness that can happen from the use of qi and blood moving herbs.

 

 

 

How long do you prescribe triphala for your patients?

Can you take it on a chronic basis?

 

Yes it can be taken prophylactically, including yin deficient conditions.

It's made of three fruits each moderating each of the three humours of

ayurveda. Each is highly nutritive. Amla (Emblic myrobalan, phyllanthus

emblica or emblica officinalis)) clears excess pitta (inflammation, yang,

liver heat). It is described as sour but not acidic. It is astringent but

sweet. Initially sour with a sweet aftertaste which becomes more apparent

after drinking some water. It clears the excess of all three humours but

especially the Pitta whose center is the liver. It is highly nutritive one

of the highest known natural sources of vitamin C but uniquely the vitamin C

seems to be impervious to either aging or high heat. I see this herb as

nourishing the TCM spleen and liver sort of like gou gi zi but very

different and probably broader.

 

The second fruit is Haritaki (Terminalia chebula) the same as " He zi " in

TCM. TCM uses this herb as an astringent but it enters the lungs, stomach

and large intestine. All three fruits of Triphala are mildly laxative but in

Ayurveda Haritaki is considered the most laxative and it is darker colored

when you buy it while TCM it is green causing me to wonder if the TCM herb

is picked yellowish green to accentuate its astringent properties. It is one

of the most important herbs in Tibetan medicine and the Medicine Buddha is

depicted holding haritaki fruit in his hands. It goes to the Air, nervous

system or vata humour. TCM does describe it as having a strong downward

action which would coincide with Ayurvedic indications, especially the

laxative properties but TCM also warns against using it for constipation. An

odd difference between the two traditions. In any case it regulates vata

which is the nervous system whose seat in ayurveda is the large intestine.

Somehow I think peristaltic action of the LI is like a macro version of

neurological response which is mirrored in other neurological actions of the

body - 'just moving things along,' so to speak. Regulating vata suggests

that it has a special affinity for kidney yin deficiency. The way I might

understanding that is to strengthen the nervous system and counteract the

tendency towards yin fire syndrome.

 

The third fruit is beleric myrobalan or bibhitaki. It especially regulates

the water humour or kapha. And is used for urinary system, cholesterol,

bronchitis, mucus, etc. - spleen dampness.

 

The point of describing each of these is that generally triphala consists of

equal parts of each of the three herbs and it is safe to use that way but

Ayurvedic doctors might prefer to increase one or another based on the

individual constitution of the patient.

 

I've attended a number of Ayurvedic doctors and regardless of whatever is

given Triphala is always prescribed as a sort of slow acting safety net in

terms of its mild balanced detoxifying and tonifying properties.

 

One application that I and others have found is for people with laxative

dependent constipation. A difficult sometimes intractable condition in many

patients. Triphala tends to regulate the bowels though Ayurveda would not

call it a laxative.

 

Michael Tierra

 

I have an article on it on my website

http://www.planetherbs.com/specific-herbs/the-wonders-of-triphala.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks,

K

 

On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 4:53 PM, Michael Tierra <mtierra

<mtierra%40planetherbs.com> >wrote:

 

>..................ng in itself.

>

> I have found little practical value to Jeffrey's teaching but I would

still

> consider him one of the most interesting and original teachers. I'm not

> into

> aromatherapy and don't feel inclined to go in that direction. Actually one

> practical thing I received from him as a stagnation removing formula

passed

> on to him by his teacher who purportedly gave it to every patient as a

> first

> level of treatment, regardless of pattern diagnosis. During the class he

> didn't know the formula but he subsequently mailed it to me and I thought

> some of you might find it interesting and useful.

>

> Gui zhi 6g

>

> Bo he 4g

>

> Bai shao yao 6-9

>

> Fang feng 6-9

>

> Chuan Xiong 6-0

>

> Fu ling 6-9

>

> Bai zhi 6-9

>

> Ban xia 6-9

>

> Zhi Ke 3-6

>

> Jie geng 6-9

>

> Chen pi 3-6

>

> Xiang fu 6-9

>

> Xi yang shen 6

>

> Zhi gan cao 3-6

>

> He said it was based on Yue qu wan

>

> The point here is herbal strategy and this strategy involves removing in a

> balanced way any of the 5 stagnations that would impede healing before

> possibly prescribing the indicated formula.

>

>

>

 

--

 

 

""

 

 

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

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I can hardly wait.

 

 

 

On Behalf Of

Sunday, January 03, 2010 10:25 PM

 

Re: Re: Esoteric Herbology Book?

 

One of my projects that I am working on bit by bit. .

 

Z'ev

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All systems are go for me to write to Elisabeth about our discussion.

 

I want to be very clear that I am unwilling to importune upon

Elisabeth's time for more than one question, which must be phrased so

as to give her the opportunity of an easy answer, not an essay-style

response. We have one shot. I am not going to keep going after

Elisabeth for more of her time and attention, because she is very

busy. We must consider clearly what it is that we wish to ask.

 

I feel strongly that I should not be the one to design the question,

because 1) I am not feeling unclear about what Elisabeth said or

meant, and 2) the degree to which my words have been misunderstood

heretofore on this list serve is already strong evidence that I have

not learned how to communicate in a style which is functional for this

population. The very idea that I am using the word " fundamentalist "

to describe people who " question the rigor of those who assign psycho-

emotional attributes, " or who " have problems with faulty

statements " !!! When I re-read my posts, I do not seem to myself to

be saying any such thing; a misunderstanding of this proportion is a

clear indicator that I am in no position to be the one to draft a

question/statement for Elisabeth to evaluate. Those who are most

concerned with clarity, and those who have found me most unclear,

should reasonably be the ones to do so. Then there can be no chance

of misunderstanding Elisabeth because of my mis-handling of the

situation.

 

Z'ev, you seemed most interested in consulting Elisabeth. Will you

facilitate or create this statement/question for her?

 

 

Thea Elijah

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On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 3:54 PM, Michael Tierra <mtierrawrote:

 

>

>

> Roy Upton noticing a comment in Bensky's latest book that Xiao Yao Wan

> arose

> out of the context of people feeling frustrated with their socio-political

> circumstances of the time caused him to write Bensky and say how much more

> valuable that information is than simply to say that it is used for

> stagnant

> or irregular qi.

>

I was unable to find this socio-political mention in the 3rd edition of

Formulas and Strategies. Still, the key point as I read this is not the

" social-political circumstances " but the *frustration*.

 

This is another example of pattern differentiation that sometimes gets left

behind when considering psycho-spiritual applications. For instance, let's

say that politics are at the forefront of one's mental-emotional life.

 

If a political situation makes you anxious, you need something for anxiety.

 

If a political situation makes you angry, you need something for anger.

 

If a political situation makes you joyful after your candidate wins (and

problems with concentration ensue) you need something for excessive joy.

 

If a political situation causes excessive thought, worry, rumination,

whatever, then you may need something for your Spleen.

 

If a political situation causes grief, then you know what to do. Or at least

you put one point into the metal element column of your diagnostic process.

 

We all respond to things differently, including socio-political situations.

I believe it is more important to look at a patient's unique *response* to

these things than the things themselves.

 

-al.

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

http://twitter.com/algancao

 

 

 

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Hi Thea, Sharon, and all,

 

Thank you Sharon for helping to clarify my point. I will try to elaborate

further;

 

Yes the actual Disease, as I refer to as disease name, is very important when it

comes to treatment. Many herbs have very specific actions against particular

" diseases " , that without knowing how to properly identify them, the Doctor could

easily miss the boat.

 

I like referring to dermatology, as this is what I see a lot of and it is my

passion :-)

 

The first thing that has to be undertaken when it comes to dermatology, in my

training and experience, is what is called " differentiation of disease " . Being

able to properly identify a certain disease is crucial to proper treatment. As

examples;

 

Nummular eczema, psoriasis, and Tinea can all look very similar. Of the three,

Tinea or fungal disease, particularly needs (and may only need) external

treatment and may not even budge with internal medicine. Without knowing how to

identify the " disease " in question, many serious mistakes are made in the

clinic. There is actually a name for improperly diagnosed and treated fungal

disease, called tinea incognito- basically a fungal disease that has spread and

became violently aggressive because the physician believed it to be eczema and

treats as such.

A simple viscous filled vesicle, or pustule, as seen in acne, can manifest in

differing types of skin disease. Pustules that are a part of Rosacea are treated

much differently than pustules seen within Acne. In rosacea they are better

expressed with herbs like Bai Zhi and Shi Chang Pu, whereas in Acne they are

better dealt with using the standard strong fire toxin resolving herbs like Pu

Gong Ying and Zi Hua Di DIng. By being able to differentiate between Rosacea and

Acne, which to the untrained eye may seem the same, can lead to a much more

effective and better outcome.

 

Once the disease is labeled and named, then the pattern can be determined (or

disease factors as Sharon called it). So once we know for sure that we are

dealing with Psoriasis and not a fungus, we then need to determine if this

psoriasis is due to heat in the blood, cold stagnation, fire toxin, damp heat,

blood stasis, blood/ yin xu, etc. A trained eye can just look at the lesion and

know what percentage of each may be present.

 

Then, as Sharon pointed out, we need to look at the individual as a whole

person. How is their digestion, sleep, urination, thirst levels, menstruation,

etc.

 

Sharon also pointed out that we need to define the location of the problem. I

will mention that some disease names have their location already within it- ie.

Head-ache, abdominal pain, etc. To me these can be seen as both a defined

disease and also a symptom of something else. Regardless, if a patient comes in

with a headache, we need to treat the headache and see it go away. There is a

saying I have heard in Chinese that says " regardless of the type of headache,

always use Chuan Xiong " . Again, by knowing the name of our disease, we can use

certain herbs that are known to " empirically' treat that particular problem.

 

To me it is impossible to treat a condition without first knowing the disease

presenting. Every disease comes with well defined and understood habits that

help in determining the pathomechanism and treatment. As far as I am aware,

Psoriasis was labeled as a defined disease entity in Chinese medicine at least

2000 years ago- having Traditional names like Bai Bi (White dagger sore/ white

crust) or Song Pi Xuan (Pine skin dermatosis), She Shi (Snake Lice), and Wan

Xuan (stubburn dermatosis).

 

Cheers,

Trevor

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Thea,

It is the nature of e-mail to make words 'scream out' at the reader,

especially words such as 'fundamentalist' or 'new-ager', and the like. I've

been accused of words such as these, and worse, over the years on line. . .

 

Also, you've stepped squarely into one of the biggest controversies in our

field, which in my opinion has its roots in terminological issues.

 

What I'd ask Elisabeth is the following:

 

" Twenty years ago, on hearing you lecture in Paris, you mentioned something that

has remained unresolved for me ever since. I remember you saying that tu

xue/vomiting of blood does not necessarily mean literally, that we may and

should read between the lines for a more symbolic meaning to the term(s).

Twenty years ago is a long time, but it has become a recent 'hot topic' of

discussion on a public Chinese medicine forum here in the U.S.

I was wondering if you could clarify your view for me, as you see it now. . .

"

 

I'd also be interested in obtaining a copy of Elisabeth's medical Chinese/French

dictionary if one is available.

 

Strength and blessing,

 

 

On Jan 4, 2010, at 5:07 AM, Thea Elijah wrote:

 

> All systems are go for me to write to Elisabeth about our discussion.

>

> I want to be very clear that I am unwilling to importune upon

> Elisabeth's time for more than one question, which must be phrased so

> as to give her the opportunity of an easy answer, not an essay-style

> response. We have one shot. I am not going to keep going after

> Elisabeth for more of her time and attention, because she is very

> busy. We must consider clearly what it is that we wish to ask.

>

> I feel strongly that I should not be the one to design the question,

> because 1) I am not feeling unclear about what Elisabeth said or

> meant, and 2) the degree to which my words have been misunderstood

> heretofore on this list serve is already strong evidence that I have

> not learned how to communicate in a style which is functional for this

> population. The very idea that I am using the word " fundamentalist "

> to describe people who " question the rigor of those who assign psycho-

> emotional attributes, " or who " have problems with faulty

> statements " !!! When I re-read my posts, I do not seem to myself to

> be saying any such thing; a misunderstanding of this proportion is a

> clear indicator that I am in no position to be the one to draft a

> question/statement for Elisabeth to evaluate. Those who are most

> concerned with clarity, and those who have found me most unclear,

> should reasonably be the ones to do so. Then there can be no chance

> of misunderstanding Elisabeth because of my mis-handling of the

> situation.

>

> Z'ev, you seemed most interested in consulting Elisabeth. Will you

> facilitate or create this statement/question for her?

>

> Thea Elijah

>

>

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Thank you Michael for sharing that formula that Jeffrey Yuen shared with

you. While I've been a student of his for 15 years, I'd never seen it.

However, it is not a modification of Yue Ju Wan; instead as a clear example

of Waike thinking, it's a modification of Wu Ji San.

 

Otherwise, just because you haven't found anything else of clinical value in

Jeffrey's teachings doesn't mean it isn't there. It simply means you haven't

worked at it. Jeffrey rarely gives protocols that others, who haven't

learned the thinking process, can just take and use. Perhaps, that's one of

the reasons many don't care for his teachings.

 

Also, his " making things up " isn't the same as yours. I think we all need to

remember that there's a thinking process involved in learning to understand

the responsive nature of the embodied spirit. Once one has that, one always

makes up treatments. Many years ago, I used essential oils on points for a

while and saw very interesting results, but decided to focus on other

aspects CM. The fact that there isn't " proof " of the efficacy of this method

is irrelevant, because treatments don't CAUSE healing. Anything that

stimulates the (patient's) embodied spirit to release/expel its blocks to

intrinsic movement is a healing treatment.

 

Steve

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 4:50 PM, <zrosenbe wrote:

 

> Thea,

> It is the nature of e-mail to make words 'scream out' at the reader,

> especially words such as 'fundamentalist' or 'new-ager', and the like. I've

> been accused of words such as these, and worse, over the years on line. . .

>

> Also, you've stepped squarely into one of the biggest controversies in

> our field, which in my opinion has its roots in terminological issues.

>

> What I'd ask Elisabeth is the following:

>

> " Twenty years ago, on hearing you lecture in Paris, you mentioned something

> that has remained unresolved for me ever since. I remember you saying that

> tu xue/vomiting of blood does not necessarily mean literally, that we may

> and should read between the lines for a more symbolic meaning to the

> term(s). Twenty years ago is a long time, but it has become a recent 'hot

> topic' of discussion on a public Chinese medicine forum here in the U.S.

> I was wondering if you could clarify your view for me, as you see it now.

> . . "

>

> I'd also be interested in obtaining a copy of Elisabeth's medical

> Chinese/French dictionary if one is available.

>

> Strength and blessing,

>

>

> On Jan 4, 2010, at 5:07 AM, Thea Elijah wrote:

>

> > All systems are go for me to write to Elisabeth about our discussion.

> >

> > I want to be very clear that I am unwilling to importune upon

> > Elisabeth's time for more than one question, which must be phrased so

> > as to give her the opportunity of an easy answer, not an essay-style

> > response. We have one shot. I am not going to keep going after

> > Elisabeth for more of her time and attention, because she is very

> > busy. We must consider clearly what it is that we wish to ask.

> >

> > I feel strongly that I should not be the one to design the question,

> > because 1) I am not feeling unclear about what Elisabeth said or

> > meant, and 2) the degree to which my words have been misunderstood

> > heretofore on this list serve is already strong evidence that I have

> > not learned how to communicate in a style which is functional for this

> > population. The very idea that I am using the word " fundamentalist "

> > to describe people who " question the rigor of those who assign psycho-

> > emotional attributes, " or who " have problems with faulty

> > statements " !!! When I re-read my posts, I do not seem to myself to

> > be saying any such thing; a misunderstanding of this proportion is a

> > clear indicator that I am in no position to be the one to draft a

> > question/statement for Elisabeth to evaluate. Those who are most

> > concerned with clarity, and those who have found me most unclear,

> > should reasonably be the ones to do so. Then there can be no chance

> > of misunderstanding Elisabeth because of my mis-handling of the

> > situation.

> >

> > Z'ev, you seemed most interested in consulting Elisabeth. Will you

> > facilitate or create this statement/question for her?

> >

> > Thea Elijah

> >

> >

>

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

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On Jan 4, 2010, at 7:50 PM, wrote:

 

> What I'd ask Elisabeth is the following:

>

> " Twenty years ago, on hearing you lecture in Paris, you mentioned

> something that has remained unresolved for me ever since. I

> remember you saying that tu xue/vomiting of blood does not

> necessarily mean literally, that we may and should read between the

> lines for a more symbolic meaning to the term(s). Twenty years ago

> is a long time, but it has become a recent 'hot topic' of discussion

> on a public Chinese medicine forum here in the U.S.

> I was wondering if you could clarify your view for me, as you see

> it now. . . "

 

OK, I could try this, but... Have you sat with Elisabeth? Asking

the question in this way would be fitting after dinner, with a long

evening ahead, while handing Elisabeth a glass of very good Scotch.

It is so open-ended that in this context-- the context of trying to

resolve ambiguity-- it is something like just throwing dice. She

will say something, and doubtless it will be interesting, but it

usually takes anywhere between 3 and 10 follow-up questions to get

close to something that most people would call a straight answer. My

concern is that this is not going to be a discussion-- it is going

to be a one-shot clarification attempt. We must craft the question as

for a Delphic oracle-- with as little room for ambiguity as

possible. Otherwise, we are back at square one.

 

Am I making sense here? This is pretty good, and I can do as you

suggest, but I want to run this feedback past you and see if you'd

prefer to make any changes first. Also, anyone else who has a stake

in the matter may of course make a suggestion.

 

 

Thea Elijah

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

>

> I'd also be interested in obtaining a copy of Elisabeth's medical

> Chinese/French dictionary if one is available.

>

> Strength and blessing,

>

>

> On Jan 4, 2010, at 5:07 AM, Thea Elijah wrote:

>

>> All systems are go for me to write to Elisabeth about our discussion.

>>

>> I want to be very clear that I am unwilling to importune upon

>> Elisabeth's time for more than one question, which must be phrased so

>> as to give her the opportunity of an easy answer, not an essay-style

>> response. We have one shot. I am not going to keep going after

>> Elisabeth for more of her time and attention, because she is very

>> busy. We must consider clearly what it is that we wish to ask.

>>

>> I feel strongly that I should not be the one to design the question,

>> because 1) I am not feeling unclear about what Elisabeth said or

>> meant, and 2) the degree to which my words have been misunderstood

>> heretofore on this list serve is already strong evidence that I have

>> not learned how to communicate in a style which is functional for

>> this

>> population. The very idea that I am using the word " fundamentalist "

>> to describe people who " question the rigor of those who assign

>> psycho-

>> emotional attributes, " or who " have problems with faulty

>> statements " !!! When I re-read my posts, I do not seem to myself to

>> be saying any such thing; a misunderstanding of this proportion is a

>> clear indicator that I am in no position to be the one to draft a

>> question/statement for Elisabeth to evaluate. Those who are most

>> concerned with clarity, and those who have found me most unclear,

>> should reasonably be the ones to do so. Then there can be no chance

>> of misunderstanding Elisabeth because of my mis-handling of the

>> situation.

>>

>> Z'ev, you seemed most interested in consulting Elisabeth. Will you

>> facilitate or create this statement/question for her?

>>

>> Thea Elijah

>>

>>

>

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

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On Jan 5, 2010, at 10:13 AM, Steven Alpern wrote:

>

> Also, his " making things up " isn't the same as yours. I think we all

> need to

> remember that there's a thinking process involved in learning to

> understand

> the responsive nature of the embodied spirit. Once one has that, one

> always

> makes up treatments.

>

Yah, true, in a lecture at AFEA I heard Jeffrey Yuen say, " Once you

understand the principles behind the formulas, you can make your own

formulas. "

 

I remember cringing and hoping that none of my herb students in the

room would be quoting that back at me in the classroom... Oh crap, I

thought, what has he unleashed upon me now? Are we going to have a

whole epidemic of sophomoric formula-makers in class who have no idea

what they are doing, claiming to understand the principles of the

formulas and making them up?

 

And yet, of course, he is right-- I just didn't want to hear it at

the time because I was in a position of " authority " and had no idea

what wacky nonsense might come next. As a matter of fact, no nonsense

came out of it at all-- the students got the intended message, which

was to study the formulas with the intent of understanding the thought

process behind them.

 

A comparison might be made here between the difference between the

education of a classical musician and a jazz musician. A classical

musician learns technique and principles of music and extensive

repertoire, and then plays that repertoire excellently as it is called

for by circumstances. A classical musician might recognize everything

J.S. Bach ever wrote, but would never therefore once day decide to

" make up " her own composition. In the classical music world, a

composer and a musician are two very different roles; one creates, and

the other faithfully implements. If a classical musician suddenly

starts " making stuff up " in the middle of the orchestra, we've got

chaos on our hands. You can't do that! Hey, that was not Bach! It

wasn't even Baroque! Where the hell do you see that written on your

music sheets! You show me where that is written on any music sheets

OR commentary on music written by the great masters between 1600 and

1750, and I'll listen.... Meanwhile cut the crap and learn to play

the real thing!

 

Meanwhile, how does the training of a jazz musician differ? The

mastery of technique is equally important, and the principles of

music, and there is also the absorption of a tremendous repertoire--

but the quality of the listening is different. A jazz musician

listens to understand fellow musicians well enough to be able to join

them in their song, no matter how different from their own, in a

harmonious and complementary way. In jazz, the line between composer

and musician is blurred; as soon as one understands the principles

behind the song, one is expected to modify it... to make it one's

own... to go places no one has ever gone before. I think of John

Coltrane, who, even during the days of his wilder flights, would sit

out on the fire escape between sets, just practicing scales over and

over...

 

A trained jazz musician is expected to " make things up, " but as you

pointed out, Steven, his " making things up " isn't necessarily the same

as yours or mine, unless we too have studied not only technique and

repertoire but also how to listen for underlying principles and learn

to improvise faithfully on a theme. That is a type of mastery not

taught in the conservatory. It is not better or worse, but it is

certainly different.

 

I am thinking that, in the spirit of Disease Names, that it should be

called something different. What shall we call it? Thematic

Improvisation? Jazz Medicine? compared Jeffrey Yuen to

John Coltrane. I thought that was very apt. Anyone have any

suggestions for distinction in nomenclature here?

 

 

Thea Elijah

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

> Many years ago, I used essential oils on points for a

> while and saw very interesting results, but decided to focus on other

> aspects CM. The fact that there isn't " proof " of the efficacy of

> this method

> is irrelevant, because treatments don't CAUSE healing. Anything that

> stimulates the (patient's) embodied spirit to release/expel its

> blocks to

> intrinsic movement is a healing treatment.

>

> Steve

>

> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 4:50 PM, <zrosenbe

> wrote:

>

> > Thea,

> > It is the nature of e-mail to make words 'scream out' at the reader,

> > especially words such as 'fundamentalist' or 'new-ager', and the

> like. I've

> > been accused of words such as these, and worse, over the years on

> line. . .

> >

> > Also, you've stepped squarely into one of the biggest

> controversies in

> > our field, which in my opinion has its roots in terminological

> issues.

> >

> > What I'd ask Elisabeth is the following:

> >

> > " Twenty years ago, on hearing you lecture in Paris, you mentioned

> something

> > that has remained unresolved for me ever since. I remember you

> saying that

> > tu xue/vomiting of blood does not necessarily mean literally, that

> we may

> > and should read between the lines for a more symbolic meaning to the

> > term(s). Twenty years ago is a long time, but it has become a

> recent 'hot

> > topic' of discussion on a public Chinese medicine forum here in

> the U.S.

> > I was wondering if you could clarify your view for me, as you see

> it now.

> > . . "

> >

> > I'd also be interested in obtaining a copy of Elisabeth's medical

> > Chinese/French dictionary if one is available.

> >

> > Strength and blessing,

> >

> >

> > On Jan 4, 2010, at 5:07 AM, Thea Elijah wrote:

> >

> > > All systems are go for me to write to Elisabeth about our

> discussion.

> > >

> > > I want to be very clear that I am unwilling to importune upon

> > > Elisabeth's time for more than one question, which must be

> phrased so

> > > as to give her the opportunity of an easy answer, not an essay-

> style

> > > response. We have one shot. I am not going to keep going after

> > > Elisabeth for more of her time and attention, because she is very

> > > busy. We must consider clearly what it is that we wish to ask.

> > >

> > > I feel strongly that I should not be the one to design the

> question,

> > > because 1) I am not feeling unclear about what Elisabeth said or

> > > meant, and 2) the degree to which my words have been misunderstood

> > > heretofore on this list serve is already strong evidence that I

> have

> > > not learned how to communicate in a style which is functional

> for this

> > > population. The very idea that I am using the word

> " fundamentalist "

> > > to describe people who " question the rigor of those who assign

> psycho-

> > > emotional attributes, " or who " have problems with faulty

> > > statements " !!! When I re-read my posts, I do not seem to myself

> to

> > > be saying any such thing; a misunderstanding of this proportion

> is a

> > > clear indicator that I am in no position to be the one to draft a

> > > question/statement for Elisabeth to evaluate. Those who are most

> > > concerned with clarity, and those who have found me most unclear,

> > > should reasonably be the ones to do so. Then there can be no

> chance

> > > of misunderstanding Elisabeth because of my mis-handling of the

> > > situation.

> > >

> > > Z'ev, you seemed most interested in consulting Elisabeth. Will you

> > > facilitate or create this statement/question for her?

> > >

> > > Thea Elijah

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> > San Diego, Ca. 92122

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

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