Guest guest Posted June 9, 2005 Report Share Posted June 9, 2005 Hi Alon - Clinical applications for which I have used the notion of providing substance include increasing blood volume by combining qi and blood supplementing agents as well as tissue and wound repair with huang qi when used as a vulnerary. My first introduction to this field was a Taoist three treasures model of herbalism, in that model which is acknowledgedly theoretical, my experience is that one can nourish the treasures. I should correct myself however, because the agents as often create an environment whereby the individual is better able to derive substances from air and food. Will supplemental and nourishing medicinals of TCM provide substance. >>>>Will, besides a theoretical idea how do you support this idea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2005 Report Share Posted June 9, 2005 Hi Will, It's good to see you posting again. Where can I learn more about the Taoist three treasures style of herbalism? And how is the huang qi prepared for wound care? Thanks, fernando > Clinical applications for which I have used the notion of providing > substance include increasing blood volume by combining qi and blood supplementing > agents as well as tissue and wound repair with huang qi when used as a > vulnerary. My first introduction to this field was a Taoist three treasures model of > herbalism, in that model which is acknowledgedly theoretical, my experience is > that one can nourish the treasures. I should correct myself however, because > the agents as often create an environment whereby the individual is better > able to derive substances from air and food. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2005 Report Share Posted June 9, 2005 I should correct myself however, because the agents as often create an environment whereby the individual is better able to derive substances from air and food. >>>>>>Will, we can talk about the documentation of increased " blood volume " for example. If one uses the pulse, and increase in size of radial pulse can be due to many other factors for example. But my question is also about why you think the western tonics do not increase " substance. " Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2005 Report Share Posted June 9, 2005 Golden seal, for example, is considered to be a 'tonic', even though it is a bitter, cold, and draining medicinal that qing/clears accumulated heat. On Jun 9, 2005, at 8:18 AM, wrote: > > >>>>>>> Will, we can talk about the documentation of increased " blood >>>>>>> volume " for example. If one uses the pulse, and increase in >>>>>>> size of radial pulse can be due to many other factors for >>>>>>> example. But my question is also about why you think the >>>>>>> western tonics do not increase " substance. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2005 Report Share Posted June 9, 2005 Golden seal, for example, is considered to be a 'tonic', even though it is a bitter, cold, and draining medicinal that qing/clears accumulated heat. >>>>But how about other herbs? Also, if used in low dosage increases digestive function and therefore absorption of nutrients than what is the difference? That is a tonic effect that increases substance. I am not western herbalist but I am sure there are many other herbs. What about angelica for example. Is it considered a tonic? Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2005 Report Share Posted June 9, 2005 Interestingly, Alon, Lust calls Angelica a tonic, but Tierra does not. - " " <alonmarcus Thursday, June 09, 2005 10:25 AM Re: Digest Number 2451 > Golden seal, for example, is considered to be a 'tonic', even though > it is a bitter, cold, and draining medicinal that qing/clears > accumulated heat. >>>>>But how about other herbs? Also, if used in low dosage increases >>>>>digestive function and therefore absorption of nutrients than what is >>>>>the difference? That is a tonic effect that increases substance. I am >>>>>not western herbalist but I am sure there are many other herbs. What >>>>>about angelica for example. Is it considered a tonic? > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2005 Report Share Posted June 11, 2005 On Jun 9, 2005, at 1:25 PM, wrote: Z'ev Rozenberg wrote: > Golden seal, for example, is considered to be a 'tonic', even though > it is a bitter, cold, and draining medicinal that qing/clears > accumulated heat. > >>>>But how about other herbs? Also, if used in low dosage increases > digestive function and therefore absorption of nutrients than what is > the difference? That is a tonic effect that increases substance. -- Alon, If I understand your point here, I think there is a difference, ie the one that we use in Chinese medicine: if you say Golden Seal is a tonic, then you suggest that it can be used as such is many different circumstances, whereas your example shows that it is only tonic when it first clears a pathogen to allow a return of proper function. Presumably, (I don't know), Golden Seal would not be a good choice as a tonic person who simply had insufficient substance due to constitutional weakness. Chinese medicine, to it's credit, makes this distinction very clear in it's categorization of herbs, and therefore there is less likely to be a prescribing error. Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2005 Report Share Posted June 11, 2005 simply had insufficient substance due to constitutional weakness >>>Rory, that is a good point. Although you may me think about dosage in term of function. From pharmacology we know that substances often have opposite actions based on dosage often small being stimulating and large sedating. This seems to not be has developed in CM Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2005 Report Share Posted June 12, 2005 On Jun 11, 2005, at 12:11 PM, wrote: > simply had insufficient substance due to > constitutional weakness > >>>Rory, that is a good point. Although you may me think about dosage > in term of function. From pharmacology we know that substances often > have opposite actions based on dosage often small being stimulating > and large sedating. This seems to not be has developed in CM -- I wonder if there is any literature that discusses this as it applies to Chinese herb prescribing. I've come across a couple of Chinese practitioners who work this way over the tears, but they were trained pre-1950s. Bob, Marnae...? Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2005 Report Share Posted June 12, 2005 I've come across a couple of Chinese practitioners who work this way over the tears, but they were trained pre-1950s. >>>>>>I have never seen this as a concept in CM. Herbs are said to have the same properties across dosages. The art is to know the dosage appropriate for each patient. Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2005 Report Share Posted June 13, 2005 In bu zhong yi qi tang chai hu and sheng ma are used in light dosages for particular effect, which is not increased by adding more. Par - " " <alonmarcus Sunday, June 12, 2005 11:48 AM Re: Digest Number 2451 > I've come across a couple of Chinese > practitioners who work this way over the tears, but they were trained > pre-1950s. >>>>>>>I have never seen this as a concept in CM. Herbs are said to have the >>>>>>>same properties across dosages. The art is to know the dosage >>>>>>>appropriate for each patient. > > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2005 Report Share Posted June 13, 2005 On Jun 13, 2005, at 8:21 AM, Par Scott wrote: > In bu zhong yi qi tang chai hu and sheng ma are used in light dosages > for particular effect, which is not increased by adding more. -- Right, as guides, but that is different from having very small dosages of the chief herbs in the prescription. Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2005 Report Share Posted June 13, 2005 , " Par Scott " <parufus@e...> wrote: > In bu zhong yi qi tang chai hu and sheng ma are used in light dosages for > particular effect, which is not increased by adding more. Chai hu is a very good example of an herb that is used at different doses for different purposes. Gan cao is another. I am familiar with the Western notion that herbs have opposite effects at different dose levels, but is this actually a widespread property or is it just emphasized with a handful of substances? Maybe most things are consistent across dose ranges but some things stand out as exceptions. Some drugs produce opposite effects at different dose ranges, but many drugs just do the same thing with greater or lesser intensity. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2005 Report Share Posted June 13, 2005 In bu zhong yi qi tang chai hu and sheng ma are used in light dosages for particular effect, which is not increased by adding more. >>>>>Par, good example however its not like at higher dose they are thought to have an opposite effect Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2005 Report Share Posted June 13, 2005 or is it just emphasized with a handful of substances? Maybe most things are consistent across dose ranges but some things stand out as exceptions. Some drugs produce opposite effects at different dose ranges, but many drugs just do the same thing with greater or lesser intensity. >>>>>>Eric, kind of both. Its more than just a handful of substances. Note this is also true for drugs not just herbs Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2005 Report Share Posted June 13, 2005 sorry, I thought we were just talking about different effects... - " " <alonmarcus Monday, June 13, 2005 11:00 AM Re: Digest Number 2451 > In bu zhong yi qi tang chai hu and sheng ma are used in light dosages for > particular effect, which is not increased by adding more. >>>>>>Par, good example however its not like at higher dose they are thought >>>>>>to have an opposite effect > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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