Guest guest Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 , " " wrote: > Speaking of unknown binders, I tried to dissolve a popular brand of little black pills in > both plain hot water and a acidic solution yesterday. After one hour, the pills remained > undissolved. I undertook this experiment because of a rumor circulating at PCOM that the > little black pill patents are indigestible. I sought to disprove this rumor and was > unpleasantly surprised at the results. Does my experiment prove anything? Is there an > accurate way to study tablet and pill dissolution in the small clinic? > When I take Chinese prepared medicines in little black pill form, I keep them in my mouth for about 2 minutes or so in order to get the taste of the formula. In that time, they dissolve about 50% and in some cases even crumble. More often than not, the brands are Min Shan or Plum Flower. Brian C. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 , " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...> wrote: > > In that time, they dissolve about 50% and in some cases even crumble. > More often than not, the brands are Min Shan or Plum Flower. 1. you have salivary enzymes that break down starches in the mouth. But most patients just swallow these pills. 2. the pills in my experiment did dissolve about 50%, but no amount of time caused the other 50% to dissolve. they could be crushed with very firm pressure at this time, but unless you chew them, I don't know where that pinpoint pressure would occur after swallowing. 3. enzymes may further act on them in the duodenum, but I think Alon is right. If you have low HCl or low pancreatin, they will not be broken down much further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 > 1. you have salivary enzymes that break down starches in the mouth. But most patients > just swallow these pills. > > 2. the pills in my experiment did dissolve about 50%, but no amount of time caused the > other 50% to dissolve. they could be crushed with very firm pressure at this time, but > unless you chew them, I don't know where that pinpoint pressure would occur after > swallowing. > > 3. enzymes may further act on them in the duodenum, but I think Alon is right. If you > have low HCl or low pancreatin, they will not be broken down much further. Then, why don't most people who take them find the undigested pills in their stool? I have never heard any patients report this, nor seen it myself! Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2004 Report Share Posted September 27, 2004 , JulieJ8 <Juliej8@b...> wrote: > > Then, why don't most people who take them find the undigested pills in their > stool? I have never heard any patients report this, nor seen it myself! funny you should ask that. We have supposedly gotten repeated reports of undigested pills in the stool at PCOM. I doubted this, which was why I did the experiment. One thing I can say is that the partially dissolved undigested pills would probably NOT be detected by a patient unless they were doing very careful stool inspection. The color and size precludes this as they turn a brownish color as they start to dissolve. If a person had GI problems as many do, it would be further difficult to identify the undigested pills amongst loose watery stool with other bits of undigested seeds and grains and veggies. I have not actually made a close study of this matter myself, have you. I was just reacting to hearsay and doing an experiment that was easily done in my kitchen. BTW, we use three different brands of little black pills at PCOM. I did the experiment in my kitchen with a brand I had at home. I did not cross check different brands and will not disclose the brand I used. My question remains. Is there an accurate kitchen tablet dissolution experiment? Because the herb industry certainly has given us no reason to extend blind trust to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2004 Report Share Posted September 27, 2004 I have never heard any patients report this, nor seen it myself! >>>I have seen this in patients with digestive disorders alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2004 Report Share Posted September 27, 2004 In a message dated 9/27/2004 12:15:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, writes: , JulieJ8 <Juliej8@b...> wrote: > > Then, why don't most people who take them find the undigested pills in their > stool? I have never heard any patients report this, nor seen it myself! funny you should ask that. We have supposedly gotten repeated reports of undigested pills in the stool at PCOM. I doubted this, which was why I did the experiment. One thing I can say is that the partially dissolved undigested pills would probably NOT be detected by a patient unless they were doing very careful stool inspection. The color and size precludes this as they turn a brownish color as they start to dissolve. If a person had GI problems as many do, it would be further difficult to identify the undigested pills amongst loose watery stool with other bits of undigested seeds and grains and veggies. I have not actually made a close study of this matter myself, have you. I was just reacting to hearsay and doing an experiment that was easily done in my kitchen. BTW, we use three different brands of little black pills at PCOM. I did the experiment in my kitchen with a brand I had at home. I did not cross check different brands and will not disclose the brand I used. My question remains. Is there an accurate kitchen tablet dissolution experiment? Because the herb industry certainly has given us no reason to extend blind trust to them. I watched a documentary a couple years back which included an interview with a waste water treatment manager in New York City. A question the commentator asked was, " What do you find most in the water? " . His reply was, " Vitamin supplements " . According to this guy, they pull tons out every year. I cannot guarantee this next bit, but I heard some where a while ago that Canada has a " 10 " minute rule for supplements. The Gov. puts the prospective supplement in a glass of warm water. They wait 10 minutes and see if the sup. has dissolved. If so, it is good for sale. If not, then they cannot sell it. It seems like a reasonable rule even if it isn't current protocol. I would be very interested if anyone can confirm the Canada supplement rule. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2004 Report Share Posted September 28, 2004 Two my friends are in waste treatment and they say that no one is checking the water supply for spent drugs - either recreational or prescribed. Tons of it are flushed into the system. Here in Santa Cruz, CA (one of the most progressive - liberal cities in the world) the main industry is the beach and boardwalk. The San Lorezeno river flows into the ocean right there and the city - typical CYA fashion - put up very visible signs " Caution No Swimming Contaminated Water " . I don't believe the problem is in identifying the problem. Its what are " we " are willing to do about it. Last year the city council almost passed a no smoking ban on the public beaches. So one only buys the best triple certified inspected pill and washes it down with a glass of tap water. Enjoy Your Health, Ed Kasper L.Ac. Santa Cruz, CA Message: 16 Mon, 27 Sep 2004 20:27:28 EDT Musiclear Re: Re: dissolving little black pills >>>> Chris wrote ..... I watched a documentary a couple years back which included an interview with a waste water treatment manager in New York City. A question the commentator asked was, " What do you find most in the water? " . His reply was, " Vitamin supplements " . According to this guy, they pull tons out every year >>> -- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 7.0.271 / Virus Database: 264.9.6 - Release 9/24/2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2004 Report Share Posted October 10, 2004 An easy way to figure this out - have the people who don't think the pills break down in the GI take a few doses of Da Cheng Qi Tang Wan. But that's just my sick and twisted type of humor (oops - humour). Geoff , " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...> wrote: > , " " > wrote: > > > Speaking of unknown binders, I tried to dissolve a popular brand of > little black pills in > > both plain hot water and a acidic solution yesterday. After one > hour, the pills remained > > undissolved. I undertook this experiment because of a rumor > circulating at PCOM that the > > little black pill patents are indigestible. I sought to disprove > this rumor and was > > unpleasantly surprised at the results. Does my experiment prove > anything? Is there an > > accurate way to study tablet and pill dissolution in the small clinic? > > > > > > > When I take Chinese prepared medicines in little black pill form, I > keep them in my mouth for about 2 minutes or so in order to get the > taste of the formula. > > In that time, they dissolve about 50% and in some cases even crumble. > More often than not, the brands are Min Shan or Plum Flower. > > Brian C. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2004 Report Share Posted October 10, 2004 An easy way to figure this out - have the people who don't think the pills break down in the GI take a few doses of Da Cheng Qi Tang Wan. But that's just my sick and twisted type of humor (oops - humour). >>>>Geoff that really depends on the persons GI tract. I for one know I can digest them well. But I have also seen patients that found them in the stool not digested Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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