liver qi depression

[Guest guest]

There is quite a section in wiseman on binding depression of liver qi (akak

liver depression or liver qi depression). This is called liver qi

stagnation by maciocia, kapchuk and many others and liver qi constraint by

bensky. Despite the issue of precise terminology in this matter, I note

Wiseman's definition use the term stagnation to define depression. However,

he goes on to point out that in practice, this term depression is used to

mean affect (emotion) damage causing stagnation and just qi flow stoppage

from any cause. It has not always been used that way, though, as Zhu dan

xi appears to have used the term more broadly. However those I queried at

PCOM who read chinese agreed that modern texts tend towards the more

restrictive use of liver depression or depression in general.

 

The chief signs are affect-mind depression (what laypeople simply call

depression), vexation (easy to elicit if present), agitation (often

observed), and irascibility (the latter meaning tendency to anger easily),

distension and pain in the ribside, oppression in the chest (which is often

reported as difficulty breathing, I believe) and sighing. Also menstrual

and lower abdominal disorders. However all the other problems associated

with the liver are secondary to phlegm (goiter, plumpit) or spleen invasion

(diarrhea) or heat reversal (cold hands and feet). Of course the wiry

pulse (aka stringlike or bowstring).

 

I see things like cold hands and feet and alternating constipation and

diarrhea and alternating sx in general sometimes used to dx liver

depression. How valid is this? Can these be cited somewhere. do we need

to expand the dx for modern america or is it just fine as I wrote it above?

 

 

 

Chinese Herbs

 

 

" Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds " --

Albert Einstein

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

most of my free time this week has been spent in trying to unravel this

very

issue. I've talked to two of my friends/doctors from China at length about it. I

have

also gone over and over the first 20 pages of the Qin bo Wei translation. (Which

adds

another layer of confusion) The issue is not easy to get given the different

translations and levels of descriptions of the complexities. Let me take this

opportunity to think out loud. I apologize if my explanations are simplistic. As

I

understand it so far, goes something like this.

 

Yu is the word for depression or stagnation as you note below. It is the term

used for

the famous 6 stagnations. In any case, let's call it depression, is the first

state of liver

problems. It comes from the mental state and may (I believe) have signs of

distention

but NO Pain. There will be the mental emotional melancholy (yu).

 

Stagnation, Zhi, is the second stage of the liver problem. (Thus we have " Liver

Depression Qi stagnation " . ) These are the signs of distention WITH PAIN or

other

symptoms. The problem is that because of the nature of liver qi to flow outwards

the

difference between " depression " and " stagnation " is often missed. Indeed Dr. Wen

has

told me that this is an advanced concept but vital to the fine-tuning of the

diagnosis and formula. And in the original, I've seen, the two terms are often

interchanged and/or used together.

 

Liver " Depression " then only has the mental aspect, and I suspect (although I

haven't

researched it) that " constraint " is the term used for Zhi or " stagnation " . From

these

stagnation stage the liver qi can go to the other organs, most commonly to the

Spleen or Stomach, or upward with fire or heat to the head. With heat you have

the

beginning of the damage to the blood and deficiency in the liver blood.

(So with this, you would have to refine your second to last paragraph. Here we

would

redefine the symptoms you mentioned as those belonging to Yu or Zhi. )

 

Qin Bo-Wei rather famously reinforces the concept of Qi being a " material " force

and

thus in the liver, Qi and Blood being the Substance of the liver and Yin and

Yang

being the Activity. (this is unlike our usual pairing of Yin to blood and Yang

to Qi).

The other problem with the Qin Bo-Wei is that he uses the two words Liver Qi to

define counter flow. (This might be a rather idiosyncratic use even in Beijing

as the

term usually means simply a liver depression issue, I'll research this.) But in

any case

from page 11 (Chase) we get a definition: " [ thus liver qi disease] appears [

clinically]

in the form of a horizontal counterflow that may extend further to influence

other

viscera. "

He then goes on to say that liver depression can progress to liver qi (counter

flow) but

that liver qi (counter) flow will not produce liver depression.

 

So these are really interesting issues. It goes a long way to explain the

differences in

using Chai Hu, Yu Jin and then the Yin and blood herbs, Gou Qi zi, bai shao,

etc... In

addition we have the implication of the weak spleen being overacted on and thus

why

Wen Dan Tang is so effective as a " liver/GB " formula.

 

 

I believe (as Marnae and I discussed here) that depression is a mis-use of the

word.

From my friend, he says that stagnation is a better word for the 6 stagnations.

The

allusion (?) to a mental depression only applies to the liver Qi and then as

sort of a

pun in Chinese on the mental aspect. It also creates awkward writing where we

don't

know if we are talking about someone with liver stagnation or feeling like crap.

Wiseman has also said that we don't have to use our terminology in front of

patients.

as a supervisor, you and I both know that that is impossible.

Unfortunately, the

Depression term is getting embedded.

 

I will do more research but I think a proposal might be to use Stagnation for Yu

and

Constraint for Zhi. Perhaps Marnae or someone else can help in this and any

misconceptions I might have.

 

Thats all for now. I've joined the Translate Chinese group at . It's mainly

Lorraine Wilcox and others. We've been delving into this stuff a little also.

doug

 

 

, wrote:

> There is quite a section in wiseman on binding depression of liver qi (akak

> liver depression or liver qi depression). This is called liver qi

> stagnation by maciocia, kapchuk and many others and liver qi constraint by

> bensky. Despite the issue of precise terminology in this matter, I note

> Wiseman's definition use the term stagnation to define depression. However,

> he goes on to point out that in practice, this term depression is used to

> mean affect (emotion) damage causing stagnation and just qi flow stoppage

> from any cause. It has not always been used that way, though, as Zhu dan

> xi appears to have used the term more broadly. However those I queried at

> PCOM who read chinese agreed that modern texts tend towards the more

> restrictive use of liver depression or depression in general.

>

> The chief signs are affect-mind depression (what laypeople simply call

> depression), vexation (easy to elicit if present), agitation (often

> observed), and irascibility (the latter meaning tendency to anger easily),

> distension and pain in the ribside, oppression in the chest (which is often

> reported as difficulty breathing, I believe) and sighing. Also menstrual

> and lower abdominal disorders. However all the other problems associated

> with the liver are secondary to phlegm (goiter, plumpit) or spleen invasion

> (diarrhea) or heat reversal (cold hands and feet). Of course the wiry

> pulse (aka stringlike or bowstring).

>

> I see things like cold hands and feet and alternating constipation and

> diarrhea and alternating sx in general sometimes used to dx liver

> depression. How valid is this? Can these be cited somewhere. do we need

> to expand the dx for modern america or is it just fine as I wrote it above?

>

>

[Guest guest]

, wrote:

> There is quite a section in wiseman on binding depression of liver

qi (aka) liver depression or liver qi depression). This is called

liver qi stagnation by maciocia, kapchuk and many others and liver

qi constraint by bensky. Despite the issue of precise terminology in

this matter, I note Wiseman's definition use the term stagnation to

define depression.>>>

 

:

 

How is " binding or liver depression " any more precise

than " stagnation " or " contraint " ? To have those physical symptoms

doesn't necessarily mean the patient has emotional depression---and

viz-a-versa.

 

If we judge through symptom pattern, then I don't see why one isn't

as good as another---as long as we are consistent.

 

But if we are looking at the pulses, then these can be three

different presentations for someone who does more than the basic TCM

pulse diagnosis.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

This is something I had posted in the Tranlate Chinese in reference

to

yu and zhi. Note that it presents a slightly different from my previous post as

it

expresses more the opinions of another doctor. More fuel.

doug

 

 

I just had a conversation with a Chinese

> colleague. He explained it this way: The

> two terms are often interchangable with certain

> exceptions. One is just linguistic. Just

> as we say ride a horse and drive a car we wouldn't

> say drive a horse and ride a car. So,

> for exampe zhi for phlegm is inappropriate. The

> other exception is more important.

> Zhi is mainly used for transitory qi " stagnation "

> such as when food is stagnant and

> you burp. (I guess you could say the burp is the

> zhi) Yu is a chronic pathological

> condition. That is why we see the term liver

> depression qi stagnation. Gan (liver) yu qi

> zhi. There can also be Gan Yu xue xu. Or a liver

> disfunction with/because of a blood

> deficiency.

> In vernacular Chinese this is often shortened to

> Liver Qi or Gan Yu. You see this often

> in the Qin Bo-Wei translation.

> My friend explains that this rather advanced theory

> and probally not appropriate for

> intitial teaching but informs many a treatment plan.

> Zhi type problems may not even

> warrant a herb formula whereas Yu problems are

> pathologies that are well known.

> So in response to Lorraine I would have to rethink

> this. Perhaps leave yu with

> stagnation and put transitory stagnation for zhi.

> Perhaps put another word for yu as

> depression still feels arbitrary. I'll get back to

> you

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

> I believe (as Marnae and I discussed here) that depression is a

mis-use of the word. From my friend, he says that stagnation is a

better word for the 6 stagnations. The allusion (?) to a mental

depression only applies to the liver Qi and then as sort of a

pun in Chinese on the mental aspect. It also creates awkward writing

where we don't know if we are talking about someone with liver

stagnation or feeling like crap. >>>

 

 

Doug:

 

Your mention of the confusion between emotional and physiological

states is key in translating yu. Your argument is excellent and

convincing.

 

" Depression " related to the emotional aspect is consistant with the

way we see and discuss liver problems in the pulses. " Depression " is

used when a liver pulse shows that emotional expression at the qi

depth (using the Nan Jing 3-depths method and its

variations). " Stagnation " clearly expresses a more physical issue.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

I'm glad you pointed this out! This has alway bugged the crap out of me. hahaha!

doug

 

 

> , wrote:

Despite the issue of precise terminology in

> this matter, I note Wiseman's definition use the term stagnation to

> define depression.>>>

>

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

 

>> Just as we say ride a horse and drive a car we wouldn't

>> say drive a horse and ride a car. >>>

 

 

You can drive a horse to exhaustion by riding him too hard, and ride

in a car when someone else is driving---because meaning is

contextual. The Wiseman style of translation is no guarentee of

meaning.

 

In college, we used to translate a poem from a foreign language and,

then, without looking at the original, try to translate it back into

the original language. It'll drive you nuts to see what you get and

how different it is from the original.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " James Ramholz " <jramholz>

wrote:

Despite the issue of precise terminology in

> this matter, I note Wiseman's definition use the term stagnation to

> define depression.>>>

>

>

:

>

> How is " binding or liver depression " any more precise

> than " stagnation " or " contraint " ?

 

you mistook what I was saying here. I was saying if depression is defined

with stagnation, it is fallacious to say one is always distnct from the other.

I

was doubting the supposed distinction made between certain terms as being

overly clinically meaningful. I'm with you here. Just choose one.

 

[Guest guest]

, " James Ramholz "

<jramholz> wrote:

> , wrote:

> > There is quite a section in wiseman on binding depression of

liver

> qi (aka) liver depression or liver qi depression). This is called

> liver qi stagnation by maciocia, kapchuk and many others and liver

> qi constraint by bensky. Despite the issue of precise terminology

in

> this matter, I note Wiseman's definition use the term stagnation to

> define depression.>>>

>

>

:

>

> How is " binding or liver depression " any more precise

> than " stagnation " or " contraint " ? To have those physical symptoms

> doesn't necessarily mean the patient has emotional depression---and

> viz-a-versa.

 

I agree... I personally don't like the choice 'depression' because it

does suggest soemthing to the ear that may not be true.

 

 

 

>

> If we judge through symptom pattern, then I don't see why one isn't

> as good as another---as long as we are consistent.

 

True...

 

>

> But if we are looking at the pulses, then these can be three

> different presentations for someone who does more than the basic

TCM

> pulse diagnosis.t

 

Can't comment here

 

-

[Guest guest]

On Nov 29, 2003, at 11:36 AM, James Ramholz wrote:

 

> But if we are looking at the pulses, then these can be three

> different presentations for someone who does more than the basic TCM

> pulse diagnosis.

 

Can you describe them briefly?

 

--

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

-Adlai Stevenson

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

> you mistook what I was saying here. I was saying if depression is

defined with stagnation, it is fallacious to say one is always

distnct from the other. I was doubting the supposed distinction made

between certain terms as being overly clinically meaningful. I'm

with you here. Just choose one. >>>

 

:

 

Sorry I missed your point. It takes me by surprise when someone

agrees with me!

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, Al Stone wrote:

> On Nov 29, 2003, at 11:36 AM, James Ramholz wrote:

>

> > But if we are looking at the pulses, then these can be three

> > different presentations for someone who does more than the basic

TCM pulse diagnosis.

>

> Can you describe them briefly? >>>

 

 

Al:

 

Depression

In the liver position, the movement is cosine rather than sine wave

or bell curve. If the downward movement starts at the qi depth, then

the patient is aware that they are emotionally depressed. If the

movement starts from the top of the blood depth, then the depression

is subconscious. They are not immediately aware of it emotionally

but feel the physical symptoms of depression. If the cosine movement

begins at the organ or adapted depth, it is either an old emotion

that hasn't fully been resolved, or it is how they feel inside while

projecting a different personae. In this last case, you have to

compare the movement at the qi and organ depths to each other.

 

 

Constraint

When found in the liver position, this case is a variation of the

confined pulse (lao mai). Although Wiseman says the name " firm " is

rarely used, this is an apt description. It is a sunken wiry

movement whose surface feels well defined. It is often found in

people who hold their emotions in (repression) and exhibit much self-

control. Even when depleted (xu), they force themselves to work hard

and keep up their personal appearances and agendas. Another type of

constraint is when the liver movement is blocked by the Pc or at the

diaphragm from connecting to the heart. When the liver doesn't

connect to and support the shen, the person will be joyless or have

a flat affect---which they may erroneously interpret as depression.

 

 

Stagnant

This is often seen as a damp or soggy pulse (ru mai) or choppy pulse

(se mai) at any depth. In the liver position, this type of movement

reflects the action or invasion of earth against the 5-Phase control

(ke) cycle. Liver may have been weakened earlier by emotions which

interfere with the liver's action of moving and smoothing the qi. In

the case of choppiness, blood stasis is also involved in the middle

jiao.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

 

Perhaps leave yu with

> > stagnation and put transitory stagnation for zhi.

> > Perhaps put another word for yu as

> > depression still feels arbitrary.

 

While interesting, the choice of terms is really besides the point to me. If

one

assumes a technical language should be transparent to the reader, in other

words that a reader will need to go no farther than his own brain to

understand the term, then term choice becomes paramount. I assume the

medical language should not be transparent and is in fact not transparent to a

chinese layperson in the original chinese. So whether stagnation says it better

than depression is of less interest to me than whether I know what chinese

word the author is translating (thus it must be glossed somewhere). Thus I

require a dictionary to define every unfamiliar term. I know what thirst is,

but I will never understand any connotation of yu or zhi without extensive

explanation and definition. What I need is a standard keyed to the chinese.

 

So why not adopt wiseman, the only existing standard, as a revisable first

draft. Wiseman was not commissioned to do this work, so its up to us to adopt

it in part or in whole. But what better place to start than an actually

comprehensive glossary. We can start by debating those relatively few (300

or so) terms that Bensky and GM have chosen to gloss. Those are the main

terms in english where there are competing definitions. No other terms have

been glossed by these other authors. Let's even include Chen, but the list of

glossed terms still stays small. Why not use wiseman terms when he is the

only one who has glossed certain terms at all. One can always choose another

term when actually translating. But face it, no comprehensive source oriented

dictionary written by a native english speaker is going to surface any time

soon. And BP and Paradigm are committed to Wiseman. We can ask Marnae,

but I think Churchill Livingstone may go that way as well. I would say more

books and other high quality information in english on chinese medicine come

from these two sources than all the others combined. Besides BP and

Paradigm books, the only ones I crack on a daily basis are Bensky.

 

Finally, is zhi (wiseman:stagnation) really considered transitory by most or all

authors. I can't say. I can say I have thought qi stagnation is usually

treated

with herbs like chen pi, zhi ke and hou po, while liver qi depression is treated

with herbs like chai hu, xiang fu and he huan pi. It would seem that both of

these things can be long standing. I do agree that qi stagnation is secondary

to

liver qi depression, but I believe it also may be secondary to food or phlegm or

damp accumulation or qi vacuity. When the qi stagnation is secondary to any

one of these other things, one does not see chai hu and xiang fu used, but the

former herbs instead. The most important point about language is when it

leads me to different clinical choices. when one reads a case study or sees the

representative formula chosen to illustrate the treatment of a particular

pathomechanism, it becomes pretty clear whether they what the doc was

thinking by his herb choice, regardless of his term choice.

 

[Guest guest]

I agree that the only thing to do would be start with Wiseman and Ye. I bet we

could

find less than 50 arguements if we went through the entire dictionary. I will

argue for

some transparency. But there is transparent and then there is opaque. Last week

we

heard of the professors who said that they didn't understand texts in the

Wiseman

standard. The problem in " look it up in the dictionary " terms is that it becomes

very

hard to talk about or discuss the issues of the term itself. As we have seen

with

depression and stagnation. Yes, not holding to transparency allows one make more

" accurate " translations but I think it inhibits " prose " or the transmission of

English

ideas to English speaking readers. This is what I really fear.

 

And although I won't defend Giovanni this may be the issue at hand. He is

writing out

of his experience and understanding of . (And remember he was a

long-time student of Shen, not TCM) For him, it's not really about the terms he

uses

but whether you agree with the Medicine as he presents it. People are now

arguing

that it and the Web as simplistic (which they very well may be). But then look

at

Fundamental et al, which seem to just as if not more " neatly wrapped up " . Here

it is

the opposite, non-transparent language that leaves little room for " play " of the

explanation in English.

 

(Incidently, the two Chinese colleagues offered two different explanations of yu

and

zhi and they would seem to be contridictory to the Chase translation and

Wiseman.

Both of those professors are students of those who studied under Qin-Bo Wei in

Beijing and are very familiar with his writings. One seems to be saying that zhi

is

transitory (as the Deng book explains as being resolved through a burp or fart)

, the

other that zhi is a deeper continuation of yu. )

 

I'm going to sit down with the two of them and some others and try to hammer

this

out. Your characterization of the herbs is right on target.

 

doug

 

 

 

, " " wrote:

> , " " wrote:

>

> Perhaps leave yu with

> > > stagnation and put transitory stagnation for zhi.

> > > Perhaps put another word for yu as

> > > depression still feels arbitrary.

>

> While interesting, the choice of terms is really besides the point to me. If

one

> assumes a technical language should be transparent to the reader, in other

> words that a reader will need to go no farther than his own brain to

> understand the term, then term choice becomes paramount. I assume the

> medical language should not be transparent and is in fact not transparent to a

> chinese layperson in the original chinese. So whether stagnation says it

better

> than depression is of less interest to me than whether I know what chinese

> word the author is translating (thus it must be glossed somewhere). Thus I

> require a dictionary to define every unfamiliar term. I know what thirst is,

> but I will never understand any connotation of yu or zhi without extensive

> explanation and definition. What I need is a standard keyed to the chinese.

>

> So why not adopt wiseman, the only existing standard, as a revisable first

> draft. Wiseman was not commissioned to do this work, so its up to us to adopt

> it in part or in whole. But what better place to start than an actually

> comprehensive glossary. We can start by debating those relatively few (300

> or so) terms that Bensky and GM have chosen to gloss. Those are the main

> terms in english where there are competing definitions. No other terms have

> been glossed by these other authors. Let's even include Chen, but the list of

> glossed terms still stays small. Why not use wiseman terms when he is the

> only one who has glossed certain terms at all. One can always choose another

> term when actually translating. But face it, no comprehensive source oriented

> dictionary written by a native english speaker is going to surface any time

> soon. And BP and Paradigm are committed to Wiseman. We can ask Marnae,

> but I think Churchill Livingstone may go that way as well. I would say more

> books and other high quality information in english on chinese medicine come

> from these two sources than all the others combined. Besides BP and

> Paradigm books, the only ones I crack on a daily basis are Bensky.

>

> Finally, is zhi (wiseman:stagnation) really considered transitory by most or

all

> authors. I can't say. I can say I have thought qi stagnation is usually

treated

> with herbs like chen pi, zhi ke and hou po, while liver qi depression is

treated

> with herbs like chai hu, xiang fu and he huan pi. It would seem that both of

> these things can be long standing. I do agree that qi stagnation is secondary

to

> liver qi depression, but I believe it also may be secondary to food or phlegm

or

> damp accumulation or qi vacuity. When the qi stagnation is secondary to any

> one of these other things, one does not see chai hu and xiang fu used, but the

> former herbs instead. The most important point about language is when it

> leads me to different clinical choices. when one reads a case study or sees

the

> representative formula chosen to illustrate the treatment of a particular

> pathomechanism, it becomes pretty clear whether they what the doc was

> thinking by his herb choice, regardless of his term choice.

>

 

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

> Incidently, the two Chinese colleagues offered two different

explanations of yu and zhi and they would seem to be contridictory

to the Chase translation and Wiseman.

> Both of those professors are students of those who studied under

Qin-Bo Wei in Beijing and are very familiar with his writings. One

seems to be saying that zhi is transitory (as the Deng book explains

as being resolved through a burp or fart), the other that zhi is a

deeper continuation of yu.) >>>

 

 

 

Doug:

 

The only logical conclusion to draw here is that Qin-Bo Wei was

wrong! What he wrote down was not what he *meant*; and what he said

was misunderstood by his students. I can't tell you how many times

it's happened to me. ;-)

 

To avoid situations like these, this is why we need a standard.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " "

wrote:

when one reads a case study or sees the

> representative formula chosen to illustrate the treatment of a

particular

> pathomechanism, it becomes pretty clear whether they what the doc

was

> thinking by his herb choice, regardless of his term choice.

>

 

i find that in reviewing student clinic charts, the formula and the

pattern (both usually chosen for second year student interns by their

supervisor) frequently do not match. If the formula seems helpful, i

usually instruct the students to change the pattern / tx principle to

one that more closely matches the formula. A common example of this

is a pattern usually rendered as " Liver Qi Stagnation with Damp

Retention " in a case with a primary complaint of musculoskeletal pain

for which the formula recommended is Duhuo Jisheng Tang. Since i am

the only non-Chinese clinic supervisor at our school, this makes me

wonder if the concept of closely related formulas and patterns isn't

considered so important by the Chinese -- or if it is a circumstance

of the individual's level of training with regard to herbs vs acumoxa

or tuina. Do others here have similar experiences?

 

robert hayden

[Guest guest]

A common example of this

is a pattern usually rendered as " Liver Qi Stagnation with Damp

Retention " in a case with a primary complaint of musculoskeletal pain

for which the formula recommended is Duhuo Jisheng Tang.

>>>>To me looking at the formula is the only truly informative step. While

literature may explain or at times excuse diagnosis's, only the formula tells me

what the practitioner is really thinking, assuming they know CM. Your example is

way off on that account, unless the formula was modified in which case again one

can understand the story from the formula

alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " Alon Marcus "

<alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

>>>>To me looking at the formula is the only truly informative step.

While literature may explain or at times excuse diagnosis's, only the

formula tells me what the practitioner is really thinking, assuming

they know CM. Your example is way off on that account, unless the

formula was modified in which case again one can understand the story

from the formula

> alon

>

 

i agree with the first statement, and i think this is what Todd was

getting at in the earlier post. Re the use of Duhuo Jisheng Tang, i

wonder if it is a similar case to the Taiwanese doctor you visited

who prescribed DHJST for a majority of low back pain cases.

Generally when DHJST is prescribed at my school, it is in Sun Ten

capsules.

 

rh

[Guest guest]

, " kampo36 " <kampo36>

wrote:

Since i am

> the only non-Chinese clinic supervisor at our school, this makes me

> wonder if the concept of closely related formulas and patterns isn't

> considered so important by the Chinese -- or if it is a circumstance

> of the individual's level of training with regard to herbs vs acumoxa

> or tuina. Do others here have similar experiences?

 

I think I frequently see the same thing and have wondered as you have.

According to my reading of Judith Farquhar, practice is mainly about using

theory as the pivot into the essentially empirical archive of CM. Diagnosis has

no other utility than that. I am paraphrasing here and I don't know if I agree,

but I do think this may actually be the modus operandi of many docs with

whom I have observed. At PCOM, the results of a recent chart survey showed

a high correlation between dx and tx with acupuncture. We did not survey for

herbs, which is where I often detect the discrepancy.

 

[Guest guest]

, " "

wrote:

> At PCOM, the results of a recent chart survey showed

> a high correlation between dx and tx with acupuncture. We did not

survey for

> herbs, which is where I often detect the discrepancy.

>

 

Yes, this is precisely what i am seeing. So are we seeing acupx which

reflects the pattern and formulae which reflect more of an empirical

emphasis? Again, i suspect the training may play a part. One doc

was the student of a _very_ famous acupuncturist, another an

internationally known teacher of tuina. Not to impugn their

prescribing skills at all as they are all fine physicians, just

wondering that if we had a student of Qin Bowei or Pu Fuzhou on staff

if the situation wouldn't be different.

 

rh

[Guest guest]

Re the use of Duhuo Jisheng Tang, i

wonder if it is a similar case to the Taiwanese doctor you visited

>>>I think with him it was necessity of lack of time. So if one has back pain

then give DHJST not any other reseon

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

As far as acupuncture, remember that many styles of acupuncture do not use TCM

dx. So that i would actually except divergence in acupuncture much more than in

herbal practice

alon