Paul Unschuld's unanswerable question - HORMESIS

[Guest guest]

Sammy,

Interesting email.

 

It's indisputable that science is a powerful methodology in certain

ways, but the limitations, both from a theoretical and practical

standpoint, are also very significant for us as CM practitioners.

Science directs research in certain directions. As I'm sure you know,

researchers generally find that they have to propose projects within

narrow confines to obtain funding. And as Emmanuel has mentioned, just

to research one Chinese herbal formula to the level required for FDA

licensing would cost billions, or probably trillions of dollars.

 

When one looks at such practicalities in detail, science does not seem

to be such a promising approach for the study of CM, even disregarding

the more complex issue of which part of CM do you chose to study

scientifically, which Unschuld has stressed as an important consideration.

 

 

Best wishes,

 

 

-

<ga.bates

 

Sunday, October 19, 2003 11:28 AM

RE: Paul Unschuld's unanswerable question - HORMESIS

 

 

>

> Science is a template for acquiring certainty in knowledge.

[Guest guest]

Wainwright,

 

> When one looks at such practicalities in detail, science does

not seem

> to be such a promising approach for the study of CM, even

disregarding

> the more complex issue of which part of CM do you chose to

study

> scientifically, which Unschuld has stressed as an important

consideration.

>

When I sent the article that I wrote with

Zhu Jian Ping about complexity and

Chinese medicine to a fellow named

Brian Arthur, an economist and one

of the pioneering researchers in

complex systems science at the Santa

Fe Institute (which lies, arguably, at

the frontiers of science these days),

he responded that he was glad to see

someone finally making the connection

between Daoism and complexity.

 

I haven't yet had time to sit down with him

and explain that by and large what one

sees operating beneath the surfaces

of traditional medicine in China is not

Daoism, but nevertheless his point was

that the kind of thinking that one does

see in Chinese medical strategies and

interventions is of some use in the

development and advancement of

the frontiers of science, as is the kind

of thinking that one sees in Daoism.

 

I become uncomfortable with the

suggestion that these two " systems "

of thinking are separated by a vast

conceptual gulf. When I showed the

same paper to Dave Weininger he

scolded me for having such a simpleton's

view of science.

 

And I've been learning ever since what

both Dave and Brian Arthur were talking

about.

 

I believe that one of the more meaningful

contritubtions that the subject of Chinese

medicine can make in the Western world

is the transplantation of certain modes of

thinking, certain ways of looking at the

problem and of evolving methods of

untangling knots and tying new ones,

if you get my drift.

 

Dave's understanding and application of

his " science " opened up some pretty cool

insights into the nature of medicinals found

in the Chinese materia media more or less

through the mere aggregation of data. He

made a few rather ingenious interconnections,

but using his unique view of information science

he was able to gather up enough data and

present it sensibly (and searchably) enough

so that when you look at it, you can actually

demand that it give you specific insights into

things like molecular structures, genetic dynamics,

definitions, definitions in Chinese, definitions

in English...

 

I haven't seen Dave's electronic dictionary

lately and don't know its fate, but I mention

it as an example of the impact of a point of

view on how the whole picture looks.

 

Rather than focus on vast conceptual gulfs,

Dave was able to see substantial overlaps

at the molecular level between Chinese and

Western pharmacy.

 

Well, it's a long story.

 

But I guess what I'm trying to say is that

we need to maintain vigilance at the

supposed borders that we have

constructed between ways of looking

at the world. The thing we got going for

us is that when they prove to be more

trouble than they're worth, we can simply

dissolve these borders and gulfs.

 

Cultures of course can't do this.

But individuals certainly can.

And if there is going to be a cultural

change, it will likely come from individuals.

 

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Yes, Rory, this is a form of data mining, and usually pharmaceutical

companies and chemical companies are the customers for this type of

software. There are academic licenses available, but they are hard to

come by.

 

 

On Sunday, October 19, 2003, at 01:13 PM, Rory Kerr wrote:

 

> This sounds a little like " data mining " . There was an interesting

> article about this in the Circuits section of the NY Times last week.

> The software necessary to do this is very expensive and so academic

> research institutions rather than individuals own it. Do you happen

> to know if that was his method?

 

 

[Guest guest]

Here is the story, Wainwright.

 

One has to have a license (an academic one, perhaps) to view this

material. I recently went to the site for the first time in several

months after losing my 'key' and my observation is that no work has

been done on this project in at least 18 months.

 

Two years ago, Dave and I had planned to evangelize the two projects at

Pacific Symposium, but the material wasn't ready in time for the

conference.

 

I have not been in touch with Dave for over a year, and am not able to

get back in touch with him.

 

The TCM (Traditional s) project was quite amazing.

Using the Merlin database, the user could choose any Chinese medicinal,

such as chai hu/bupleurum, and it would list all of the bioactive

molecules in the herb. One could then click on any molecule, which was

beautifully illustrated, and access information from pharmacological

data bases around the world. The interesting thing that Dave was able

to find was that the indications for the molecules was mostly the same

in Western pharmacology as in Chinese research, and traditional Chinese

data.

 

It runs on a very sophisticated engine called Fedora. As it says on

the website, " the service attempts to use the relatively modern concept

of molecular structure to bridge the chasm between traditional Chinese

and western allopathic approaches to medicinal drug usage. The complete

contents of the book Traditional s is internally

indexed by structure and function, then crossreferenced to databases of

traditional Chinese and Western pharmacological information. "

 

If you want to read about Dave Weininger, the new book " The Info Mesa "

by Ed Regis tells his story. Truly a genius of chemistry, and the

inventor of a universal software tool to access any chemical or

pharmacological data in the world.

 

 

On Sunday, October 19, 2003, at 08:39 AM, kenrose2008 wrote:

 

> Wainwright,

>

> No.

>

> Dave built an electronic dictionary of Chinese

> medicine. I saw it a few times a few years

> ago and can't get it together to provide

> adequate examples. Maybe Z'ev can.

>

> I think he's got a copy of it. I never got one

> and the test version that used to be

> up at the daylight site was taken down

> long ago. I haven't even checked in

> over a year.

>

> www.daylight.com

>

> if you want to go look aruond and see

> if you can find any mention of it.

>

> contact Dave and ask him.

>

> Ken

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Z'ev,

 

Back in the 1980s when I was a chemist and studied biochemistry, University of

California at San Francisco as a visiting scientist from London named Dr.

Langdon. He developed a software that I understand George Lucas adapted for his

first Star Wars movie. We biochemistry students interested in DNA modeling

would go to this guy's lab and program up 3-D molecules which we would " fly "

into the helical grooves of DNA in specific locations to see of that particular

molecule could " dock " at a promoter site or transfactor site. From about 1987

onward, you could get your MS in biochemistry or genetic engineering at San

Francisco State University with research is this sort of computer modeling.

 

Cut to Dr. Lin's work at East Earth Herb characterizing about 26 new molecules

form dang gui root as well as new molecules from huang qi and other herbs. You

can dial up any of these molecules and also dial up a specific sequence of DNA

of interest. You put them both on the computer screen, and you fly the newly

characterized molecules into the DNA sequence to see where or if it's able to

dock. I have a number of graduate school classmates who essential played

computer games and even programmed new computer games for carrying out their

research. Excuse me I'm using the work " game " euphemistically here. They made

" important " programs and algorithms for correlating new molecules from industry

to DNA sequences. Ahem.

 

Is this the kind of computer modeling you are talking about? What's hormesis?

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

-

Sunday, October 19, 2003 8:10 PM

Re: Re: Paul Unschuld's unanswerable question - HORMESIS

 

 

Yes, Rory, this is a form of data mining, and usually pharmaceutical companies

and chemical companies are the customers for this type of software. There are

academic licenses available, but they are hard to come by.

 

On Sunday, October 19, 2003, at 01:13 PM, Rory Kerr wrote:

 

> This sounds a little like " data mining " . There was an interesting article

about this in the Circuits section of the NY Times last week. The software

necessary to do this is very expensive and so academic research institutions

rather than individuals own it. Do you happen to know if that was his method?

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sammy wrote:> Science is a template for acquiring certainty in knowledge.

 

Sammy,

 

As a Western scientist, I would rephrase your comment. I would say that Western

science is a template for asking certain questions about things that we observe.

The results may tempt one to claim certainty in the realm of knowledge. I

personally would resist the temptation.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

" hormesis

 

An effect where a toxic substance acts like a stimulant in small doses

, but it is an inhibitor in large doses. "

 

(Online Medical Dictionary)

 

On Sunday, October 19, 2003, at 10:16 PM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote:

 

> What's hormesis?