Now Writing for the Public

June 11, 2003

, " " wrote:

Not requiring medical Chinese in a doctorate program will

cripple the growth of the profession, because of the length of time

in developing credible translated material. If we are going to

increase access to biomedical training in the doctorate, we also

need to increase access to Chinese medical training as well. >>>

Z'ev:

In principle I agree with your point. But we need to distinguish

what the doctorate is politically and as a standard within the

profession. We should also think of a doctorate from a purely

political point-of-view; as a political instrument. In the public's

eyes, having a doctorate would certainly help further the prestige

and development of our profession; putting us on a more equal

stature with other profession who do acupuncture.

MDs are entrenched or institutionalized in the culture for political

reasons, not necessarily their clinical effectiveness. Since our

cure or improvement rate is equal or better to institutionalized

medicine, the title is not a real issue to me. Our role in this

culture---which is certainly being encroached upon---is.

Jim Ramholz

June 11, 2003

, " " wrote:

Much of the advanced material has not been translated yet. >>>

Z'ev:

Can you give some examples of this advanced material, and explain

how they would change they way we do our practice?

I ask because most often I see literature translated that recasts

any disease in the same basic patterns with the same herbal formulas.

Jim Ramholz

June 11, 2003

I agree that a lot of what is translated is the same old stuff over and

over again. This is what is so frustrating. I just reviewed a new

materia medica for PCOM that is just rehashed Bensky again and not

nearly as good. The fourth or fifth book of this type. We need books

covering modern specialties such as obstetrics and nephrology (I

understand Blue Poppy is publishing one on nephrology). Of course, it

would be good to see more classical works such as the prescriptions of

Zhang Jing-yue, Zhang Xi-chun, or works of modern TCM physicians.

Presently, I've been working on translating (for my medical Chinese

class) oncommentary on Wen Bing prescriptions and pathomechanims. I

could go on and on about what we haven't seen yet in English.

On Wednesday, June 11, 2003, at 11:47 AM, James Ramholz wrote:

> Z'ev:

>

> Can you give some examples of this advanced material, and explain

> how they would change they way we do our practice?

>

> I ask because most often I see literature translated that recasts

> any disease in the same basic patterns with the same herbal formulas.

>

> Jim Ramholz

June 11, 2003

Actually, keep your eyes peeled- Philippe Sionneau did a work (among

many) in French that one day here we're going to get into English- a

collection of modern herbal formulas for western diseases that

combine pattern discrim with pharmacological actions. But first he's

going to get into English his survey of the most important

psychological acupoints according to 16 or so classic texts.

Personally, I'd like to see the IWCM stuff translated, and when I get

into translation, it'll be to do that.

B

, " "

<zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> Of course, it

> would be good to see more classical works such as the prescriptions

of

> Zhang Jing-yue, Zhang Xi-chun, or works of modern TCM physicians.

> Presently, I've been working on translating (for my medical Chinese

> class) oncommentary on Wen Bing prescriptions and pathomechanims.

I

> could go on and on about what we haven't seen yet in English.

>

> On Wednesday, June 11, 2003, at 11:47 AM, James Ramholz wrote:

June 11, 2003

We need books covering modern specialties such as obstetrics and

nephrology (I understand Blue Poppy is publishing one on nephrology).

Z'ev et al.

Since you mention this, Blue Poppy Press is indeed publishing a book

on clinical nephrology authored by Dr. Wei Li and David Frierman of

Portland, OR. The book should come out in the fall of this year. We

are also publishing a book on acupuncture and Chinese medicine and IVF

and other ARTs authored by Dr. Lifang Liang of SF. That book will be

out by the end of August. Then early next year, we will be publishing

a book on cardiovascular diseases by Simon Becker and myself. I am

also working on a book of diagnostic algorithms for common signs and

symptoms and pattern discrimination. As for CM obstetrics, I've

written a completely new Path of Pregnancy. The book's done but we are

waiting for the old volumes to sell out (or nearly so) before printing

the new and improved version (in a single volume). It is written more

along the lines of our recent clinical manuals.

Bob

June 11, 2003

Dear " B, "

BPP was given the chance to publish the book you mention. We declined.

Frankly, the material is not that good. It is based on Philippe's

somewhat late discovery of the CM journal literature. I know he's

enthusiastic about this material, but, IMHO, I don't think its a very

mature enthusiasm.

Bob

June 11, 2003

Thanks for posting this information, Bob. It is good to hear of these

new books.

On Wednesday, June 11, 2003, at 02:47 PM, Bob Flaws wrote:

> We need books covering modern specialties such as obstetrics and

> nephrology (I understand Blue Poppy is publishing one on nephrology).

>

> Z'ev et al.

>

> Since you mention this, Blue Poppy Press is indeed publishing a book

> on clinical nephrology authored by Dr. Wei Li and David Frierman of

> Portland, OR. The book should come out in the fall of this year. We

> are also publishing a book on acupuncture and Chinese medicine and IVF

> and other ARTs authored by Dr. Lifang Liang of SF. That book will be

> out by the end of August. Then early next year, we will be publishing

> a book on cardiovascular diseases by Simon Becker and myself. I am

> also working on a book of diagnostic algorithms for common signs and

> symptoms and pattern discrimination. As for CM obstetrics, I've

> written a completely new Path of Pregnancy. The book's done but we are

> waiting for the old volumes to sell out (or nearly so) before printing

> the new and improved version (in a single volume). It is written more

> along the lines of our recent clinical manuals.

>

> Bob

>

June 11, 2003

, " Bob Flaws " wrote:

It is written more along the lines of our recent clinical manuals.

Bob:

Will any of these (or previously published books) be in electronic

form---PDF, etc?

It would be nice to have an electronically searchable BP library.

Jim Ramholz

June 12, 2003

Perhaps we are talking about different doctorates here. I do believe that PhD doctorates, whose focus is on research, either modern or ancient, should indeed be fluent in Chinese reading and communication in order to not only be able to interpret but to engage in discussions with native speakers about the intralanguage interpretation that one sees so often in older Chinese texts and documents. If the colleges start to require Chinese literacy for their professors and provide the stimulous to instill that academic capability (full time professorial status as discussed by Marnae), we will see a great expansion of interpreted texts and documents. To have every student do half-hearted interpretations without the background to do it right might just be worse then having professors and thier staffs taking the time to do them right, and doing the most important ones first.

Chicken or egg?

As for a clinical doctorate, where one is to exit college and clinical studies and starts to treat patients as a independent provider of health care does not require more than a general knowledge of Chinese language medical terminology for competency and efficacy. Some, possibly many, depending on the bent of the individual and that individual's professors and schools, may deepen their knowledge of the Chinese language to access the additional data available. I woud suspect that there might be colleges that attract those students while there will be colleges that use little or no Chinese language.

David Molony

In a message dated 6/11/03 2:21:14 PM, zrosenbe writes:

I cannot see the logic of your point here, David. If the bulk of the

professional literature is in another language (Chinese), how can a

health professional have access to that literature without learning how

to read it? Not requiring medical Chinese in a doctorate program will

cripple the growth of the profession, because of the length of time in

developing credible translated material. If we are going to increase

access to biomedical training in the doctorate, we also need to

increase access to Chinese medical training as well. Much of the

advanced material has not been translated yet.

On Wednesday, June 11, 2003, at 11:00 AM, acuman1 wrote:

> While I agree that this may be the case in developing PhD level

> professors for a number of the courses in a clinical doctorate

> program, I do not think language proficiency is a necessary part of

> understanding a medical perspective, be it Chinese or English. I do

> see that many, if not most Conventional medical schools worldwide

> require some English language ability, however, so perhaps basic

> medical terminology type training might be needed.

> David Molony

June 17, 2003

Dave -

This is an oft beat topic, but I must disagree. I am not suggesting

that our DAOM grad's should necessarily be able to translate. But

shouldn't they be able to read a basic journal article about a clinical

topic and gain some insight from it? As the DAOM iscurrently an

elective path, shouldn't there be something that really distinguishes

these people from the rest of the pack?

Marnae

At 11:12 PM 6/12/2003 -0400, you wrote:

Perhaps

we are talking about different doctorates here. I do believe that PhD

doctorates, whose focus is on research, either modern or ancient, should

indeed be fluent in Chinese reading and communication in order to not

only be able to interpret but to engage in discussions with native

speakers about the intralanguage interpretation that one sees so often in

older Chinese texts and documents. If the colleges start to require

Chinese literacy for their professors and provide the stimulous to

instill that academic capability (full time professorial status as

discussed by Marnae), we will see a great expansion of interpreted texts

and documents. To have every student do half-hearted interpretations

without the background to do it right might just be worse then having

professors and thier staffs taking the time to do them right, and doing

the most important ones first.

Chicken or egg?

As for a clinical doctorate, where one is to exit college and clinical

studies and starts to treat patients as a independent provider of health

care does not require more than a general knowledge of Chinese language

medical terminology for competency and efficacy. Some, possibly many,

depending on the bent of the individual and that individual's professors

and schools, may deepen their knowledge of the Chinese language to access

the additional data available. I woud suspect that there might be

colleges that attract those students while there will be colleges that

use little or no Chinese language.

David Molony

In a message dated 6/11/03 2:21:14 PM, zrosenbe

writes:

I cannot see the logic of

your point here, David. If the bulk of the

professional literature is in another language (Chinese), how can a

health professional have access to that literature without learning

how

to read it? Not requiring medical Chinese in a doctorate program

will

cripple the growth of the profession, because of the length of time

in

developing credible translated material. If we are going to

increase

access to biomedical training in the doctorate, we also need to

increase access to Chinese medical training as well. Much of

the

advanced material has not been translated yet.

On Wednesday, June 11, 2003, at 11:00 AM, acuman1 wrote:

> While I agree that this may be the case in developing PhD level

> professors for a number of the courses in a clinical doctorate

> program, I do not think language proficiency is a necessary part

of

> understanding a medical perspective, be it Chinese or English. I

do

> see that many, if not most Conventional medical schools

worldwide

> require some English language ability, however, so perhaps

basic

> medical terminology type training might be needed.

> David Molony

Sponsor

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

professional services, including board approved online continuing

education.

June 17, 2003

This may be where many must agree to disagree. There may be a point in our future where the doctorate is the entry level and we are no longer barefoot doctors. Then perhaps we can develop a MAster's degree post grad or even a PhD degree sort of thing that will be required for lecturing at colleges. I am open to whatever, and it seems that you are interested in paralleling normal college sheepskin granting, logically, as a college connected person. The question is whether our Master's-on- steroids renders a doctorate unnecessary. The problem is that we, as a profession, didn't start out with a 1000 hour doctorate and build up from there like everyone else has. Thats the problem with being the new kid on the block, eh?

David Molony

In a message dated 6/17/03 1:05:19 PM, marnae writes:

Dave -

This is an oft beat topic, but I must disagree. I am not suggesting that our DAOM grad's should necessarily be able to translate. But shouldn't they be able to read a basic journal article about a clinical topic and gain some insight from it? As the DAOM iscurrently an elective path, shouldn't there be something that really distinguishes these people from the rest of the pack?