dosage again

[Guest guest]

, <@i...> wrote:

> However, it would be a very simple matter to make a range of

decoctions (at varying temperature, etc.) and measure the total

milligrams of a marker constituent in all the final products. We

will establish a decoction range by cooking the herbs in various

ways that yield better or worse extraction.

 

:

 

This sounds like an interesting experiment. Is there an herbal trade

association that might be persuaded to do it? Or assign a graduate

student?

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " James Ramholz " <jramholz> wrote:

> , <@i...> wrote:

 

>

:

>

> This sounds like an interesting experiment. Is there an herbal trade

> association that might be persuaded to do it? Or assign a graduate

> student?

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

 

doing the experiment would be easy. I have plenty of volunteers, but in order

for it to be valid and unbiased, it would need to be done by an independent

FDA approved lab in the USA. So money is the only stumbling block,

because it must come from sources other than the herb companies.

 

P.S. I am not saying ma huang tang equals pseudoephedrine in its action.

clearly it does not. This is merely about determining the actual chemical

concentration of a product, not its total clinical action. And to be clear,

this is

not always about high dosage, but correct dosage. If a modern alcohol

extraction yields far more from an herb than a premodern decotion would (in a

given range, of course), then this my also skew the synergism of the final

product. Our inability to deliver this information to our critics in the

mainstream will hurt us in the long run. Ted mentioned that there is virtual

hysteria over chinese herbs at Harvard. One time per DAY, Ted gets a new

inquiry about whether chinese herbs may have caused kidney failure in a

harvard patient. the time to argue that we can smell the correct dosage is

long past if we want to continue to ply our trade.

[Guest guest]

Have you ever collet some data from KPC herb?

There must be a standardized method for them to make granules.

As far as I understand the process of making granules, they have to

cook herbs to certain temperature to get the abstract of formula,

crystalized and make to granules.

This is just a thought.

Ta-Ya

 

>>> 11/11/02 12:58PM >>>

, James Ramholz<jramholz> wrote:

> , <@i...> wrote:

 

>

:

>

> This sounds like an interesting experiment. Is there an herbal trade

 

> association that might be persuaded to do it? Or assign a graduate

> student?

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

 

doing the experiment would be easy. I have plenty of volunteers, but in

order

for it to be valid and unbiased, it would need to be done by an

independent

FDA approved lab in the USA. So money is the only stumbling block,

because it must come from sources other than the herb companies.

 

P.S. I am not saying ma huang tang equals pseudoephedrine in its

action.

clearly it does not. This is merely about determining the actual

chemical

concentration of a product, not its total clinical action. And to be

clear, this is

not always about high dosage, but correct dosage. If a modern alcohol

extraction yields far more from an herb than a premodern decotion would

(in a

given range, of course), then this my also skew the synergism of the

final

product. Our inability to deliver this information to our critics in

the

mainstream will hurt us in the long run. Ted mentioned that there is

virtual

hysteria over chinese herbs at Harvard. One time per DAY, Ted gets a

new

inquiry about whether chinese herbs may have caused kidney failure in a

 

harvard patient. the time to argue that we can smell the correct dosage

is

long past if we want to continue to ply our trade.

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

professional services, including board approved online continuing

education.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, Ta-Ya Lee <tlee19@j...> wrote:

> Have you ever collet some data from KPC herb?

> There must be a standardized method for them to make granules.

 

I know they work with an in house reference range. But since they use a

decoction process and I know the concentration ratio, I feel confident that I

can predict the strength of the products. Using the same analysis, liquid

extracts do not come anywhere close. But the claim is that these companies

do a superior extraction process that more than compensates for starting

much less raw herbal material per recommended dose of the product. If this

is true, the numbers should back it up. However, I would love to see KPC's

numbers and put them to the test, as well.

 

[Guest guest]

I agree with Ted about the issue of comparing docoction dosage with

extraction processes. You could also add the boiling off of

constituents to the factors that increase variability of potency. Kan

extracts are done in a closed glass container process which retains all

constituents.

 

I also think it is a great idea to develop a study that compares

potencies in decoctions by accounting for all possible variables.

 

 

On Monday, November 11, 2002, at 09:37 AM, wrote:

 

> I was able to ask Ted Kapchuk a question about the dosage of Kan

> products at Pacific symposium when he was speaking to a group of

> attendees. He was talking about Kan's lab analysis and I asked if

> there was any evidence that Kan products delivered a decoction

> equivalent at their recommended daily dose. He said there was no such

> thing as decoction equivalent because of the variability in the home

> cooking process. Since variations in temperature, humidity, amount of

> water, etc. all dramatically affect extraction, there is no standard

> by which to make this judgment. He also said we just don't know what

> correct dosage is. Sadly, the session ended before I could rebut, so

> here goes.

[Guest guest]

There is no question that are made by a very potent extraction process.

>>Did he say anything about their process. Is it a concentrate pills or are you talking about the liquids

Alon

[Guest guest]

, " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...>

wrote:

> There is no question that are made by a very potent extraction process.

> >>Did he say anything about their process. Is it a concentrate pills or are

you talking about the liquids

> Alon

 

liquids.

 

[Guest guest]

 

 

 

Monday, November 11, 2002

10:38 AM

 

However, it

would be a very simple matter to make a range of decoctions (at varying

temperature, etc.) and measure the total milligrams of a marker constituent in

all the final products. We will establish a decoction range by cooking the

herbs in various ways that yield better or worse extraction. So in ma huang

tang, we could measure the pseudoephedrine that was produced by making one cup

of decoction versus the number of milligrams in one dropper of the same product

made according to the kan process. the kan products are obviously strong in

taste and smell. There is no question that are made by a very potent extraction

process. The open question, the only one I want answered is how the

concentration compares to a decoction.

 

 

 

 

I have

been doing this type of research since 1995. We have done this on more than 40 yao cai and counting. The example of ma huang and

psudoephedrine is a simple and straightforward one because of the known

relationship between pseudoephedrine and bioactivity. Most herbs do not have such a well established single

compound known to be related to activity.

One preferred protocol for the many ingredients for which the actives

are not well established would be to measure several classes of “marker”

compounds (i.e. saponins, polysaccharides, phenols, etc.) that would then

represent the other constituents that are similar and in the same class of

compounds. In that way, even if

you are not sure what the full range of active components is you would still

obtain a broad view of the extractability of each class using different

extraction methods. Some of the factors

to consider and evaluate include: solvent (ETOH or H2O in different percentages)

stir rates, temperatures, extraction time, number of extractions, raw material cut

size, and drying methods (spray dry, vacuum dry, and drying temperatures). Developing precise, reproducible, and robust analytical

methods for the raw material as well as the intermediate and finished materials

is also necessary. We usually

start the process with a review of the Chinese literature on these issues.

 

I should

also mention, for whomever it was that suggested using an FDA approved lab,

that the FDA does not approve analytical laboratories. You can try to find a GLP Certified Lab

but that would be more relevant if you were doing animal research. We are currently doing raw materials research,

analytical methods development, and extraction processing research on certain

Chinese herbs on behalf of two NIH funded research projects being undertaken at

US Universities and no one ever mentioned anything to me about being FDA

certified.

 

It sounds

like a great idea to do this research and I heartily encourage you to go

forward with it. If you include an

assessment of agrochemicals as well as heavy metals you will find that

different processing methods will affect this factor as well as the transfer

rates and yield ratios in which you have expressed interest. Of course you’ll need to do this

process on every herb that you use since the outcome will be different on each

plant!

 

I’m afraid

I’ve made this project sound slightly overwhelming. It isn’t really.

It needs to be done and the Professionals in the TCM field need to get

involved in this type of research at some point.

 

Stephen

Morrissey