patterns

[Guest guest]

, yulong@m... wrote:

> > [Jim] No, I don't mean to suggest that at all.

>

> When you said that the herbal formulas must have something in them

to destroy the bacteria or stimulate the immune system to do so, I

> thought you meant the herbal formulas must have something in them

to destroy the bacteria or stimulate the immune system to do so.

>

> My interpretation was based on the idea that if

> the statement you made is true then there is

> a reason why it is true, and the only reason

> I could think of is that there must be a

> one-to-one correspondence between the two.

>

> So what did you mean?

 

 

That herbal formulas could stimulate the the 5-Phase Revenge Cycle,

stimulate the production of wei qi, etc. (any Eastern aspect of what

we could call the immune function) even without an obvious

biochemical agent, since what happens at the molecular may never be

known with certainy to be the body's capacity to self-organize.

 

Bringing in Western ideas becomes increasingly important for

disorders and diseases that have no S/S for extended periods of time.

The 5-Phase model is the best model to deal with those time frames.

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Hi,Every one,

 

I am a chinese .I think I had better provide some

opinions while you discuss our study.

 

TCM is around in our daily life.We use it in daily

life.TCM is also part of our living philosophy.

It all connect with our culture.

 

We have many way to study TCM,Not only in schools but

also you can study it by your self.The only problem

is those good TCM theory are all written bu very old

chinese language,even chinese can't understand very

well unless with very good talent in traditional old

chinese language. We read it and thinking how the old

wisdom means ,read--think,repeat these proceduals.

 

So,No matter any races people would like to study TCM

very well,you have to learn chinese very well,and

understand how chinese people think.put it in your

piority,otherwise you can't never reach the top of

TCM because it is our culture.Just like while we plan

to study in USA,We have to pass TOFEL 550 and

GRE,which is your culture and language.

 

Secomnd,The TCM Herb is very difficult,too.It has its

own circulation way,even some TCM doctor don't quite

understand it.So,people want to learn TCM herb and

doing research of TCM herb have to jump out the

western style medication treatment process,other

wise,you will get loss and without directions.

 

TCM herbal fomula may not kill the becteria

directery,TCM herb change the situation of the wound

or budy condition,when you change the

environment,becteria no longer can survival.

Since the places no longer can live,becteria have to

move away!Haa! This is what chinese people treat the

infection.

 

I mentioned put some TCM herb to kill the Becteria the

other day was because this is your people's(none

chinese) thinking process.

 

Try to cross culture gap, then you will see how huge

the TCM world is,just like ocean.It has no edge.

 

 

Jean

 

=====

 

 

--

< ºô ¸ô ¥Í ¬¡¡EºÉ ¦b ©_¼¯ > http://www.kimo.com.tw

[Guest guest]

He has no problem integrating bio-tcm styles

>>>>Does that mean he uses antibioticas in septic patients

Alon

[Guest guest]

In fact my understandingof traditional Chinese arts and sciences suggeststo me that in the end, one's own personal biasis all that really matters.

>>>I agree

Alon

 

-

yulong

Tuesday, September 25, 2001 5:49 PM

Re: patterns

Stephen,Quite right. My statements reflect a strongpersonal bias...mine. In fact my understandingof traditional Chinese arts and sciences suggeststo me that in the end, one's own personal biasis all that really matters. What's writtenin books, even what is taught orally byteachers can only serve as principles forself cultivation. We do whatwe are good at, and we tend to becomegood at this or that by repetition.In the end, we are our habits.In Chinese terms this falls under the headingof gong1 fu1. I also agree with what you said about theefficacy of monitoring patients in termsof the various data available in biomedicalterms. I have expressed this in the past,and it is something that I didn't reallyappreciate until I'd spent some time intraditional Chinese clinics and seen thevarious attempts at integration of traditionaland modern biomedical means.What matters is the patient. I know thereare some very traditional doctors in Chinawho insist that only traditional means willserve the patient and refuse to get involvedin ordering modern medical tests and procedures.But this describes a small fraction of thedoctors that I've known and studied with there.Most will do whatever is possible to effectivelyaddress a patient's condition. And the generalpattern is to use traditional means alonewhenever possible and to supplement themwith biomedical procedures when either a) necessaryor b) the patient requests it.One of the curious differneces about clinical medicinein general in China is the relatively high degreeof patient involvement in the details of medicalcare, including both the medical procedures andadministration. Patients tend to keep possessionof their own medical records, for example as wellas x-rays, MRIs, etc. I'm speaking of the actualfilms. They also tend to actually look at theirfilms with the doctors and radiologists and tohave a generally much higher familiarity withwhat is going on in medical terms and situationsthan their American counterparts. This certainlyis exemplified in the spectacle of the diagnosticinterview in a typical Chinese hospital's outpatientwards. I think you're quite familiar with thisscene in which sometimes dozens of people crowd arounddoctor and patient chatting and gosspiping and eventhrowing in their two cents worth as to theparticulars of events and even the accuracy ofthe doctor's diagnosis. I've seen docs who hadto literally clear the room in order to haveenough peace and quiet to continue to interviewthe patient. Patients choose TCM or biomedicineor both, to a great extent and the main differenceI've observed between the Chinese health careenvironment and ours in the States is thatsuch choices are both better understood andmore easily available to a greater segmentof the population, except of course to thatmass of Chinese peasants to whom little ifany health care is available.And even in teaching students massage therapy I alwaysstress that you have to know your basicmaterial so well that when you confrontthe patient you are not thinking abouttheory but simply letting the second naturethat you've cultivated in your studyguide you through the patient's puzzlesaccording to the correct theory at thecorrect time, concentrating on thepatient and not on your own mentalprocesses.That was really the point that I wastrying to make to Jim in response tothe statement that if a formula showsa particular result measured in termsof a viral load or bacteria count (orany of a number of other markers thatbiomedical doctors monitor) then thatmeans that that formula must have somecorrelate to the functions known inwestern medical science to result inthose numbers. Despite the fact thatboth systems of descriptions describethe same processes, they do so insignificantly different ways.Your point is very well taken thatwhether or not you describe the bodyin Chinese or English, ancient or modernterms, it is still the body. But thecharacter and the quality of those descriptionsdoes have an enormous impact on thethought processes that go into dealingwith that body. And they are fundamentallydifferent: not the organic processes thatare described but the linguistic methodsused to establish meaning and generatethe descriptions. And that is the reasonthat I devote so much attention toquestions related to how the Chinesethought and talked about themselvesand the world in which they lived.These considerations and expressions informthe most fundamental aspects of the subjectwe call Chinese medicine. I talk aboutthese issues because generally I findthat they are greatly underrepresentedin the education of practitioners here.I realize this is no secret, but I justwanted to acknowledge that we are talkingabout several questions that are allclosely related, and concern not onlyclinical practice but language,knowledge and the successful applicationof very old ideas by very modern people.It's not an ethnic matter. It's not anational matter. It's a matterof time and circumstance. And to me it'sa matter of the care that we ought to takein preserving the traditions that havedelivered to our use...and our carethe wonders of traditional Chinese medicine.The only reason for challenging statementsand ideas is to participate in the groupactivity that necessarily must developin order to accomplish that. So I'mdelighted to have these opportunitiesto exchange with everyone.As for Krishnamurti and the truth, I haveto admit that I know absolutely nothing.Thanks,KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/25/01 9:32:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jramholz writes:

 

 

Will:

 

If the formulas and treatment strategies are that effective, can you share them with us?

 

 

Jim... "If the formulas and strategies are that effective" what is the intent of this portion of the question?

 

I will share one case with you, however, it is with a degree of hesitancy since I often feel attacked when sharing information in this forum.

 

Example Shao Yin – Jue Yin

1.5 yr old child, March, three day fever, rash, runny nose, tears,

diarrhea, greenish blue stool, high fever, eyes fixed, measles,

drowsiness, nutrition is moderate, lips are purple, skin is pale, rashes,

rales in the lungs, heart beat is strong, rate is normal, knee reflex is

overexcited, stiff neck, pneumonia w/ cerebral attack, toxins stimulate

the CNS, convulsions severe, left side upper and lower extremities are

stiff, eyes looking upward, drugs for suppressing the convulsions don't

work.

This patient has a Shao Yin heat pattern transferring to Jue Yin Shao Yin heat

Treatment: Si Ni San plus Gou Teng and Bo He. After

three bags the patient was cured, Si Ni San is not just for gastritis, it

is important for rescuing the dying.

 

 

 

This highlights Dr Yang's opinion that Si Ni San was not placed in the Shao Yin section only for comparative discourse about Shao Yin conditions. His opinion is that Zhang Zhong Jing considered Si Ni San a critical Shao Yin formula. This is clearly different from the opinion of major Beijing luminaries that Si Ni San was used to compare with Si Ni Tang and contextualize concepts of Jue Ni patterns.

 

Will

[Guest guest]

Hi,Teresa,

 

If you have been visted to us,you are much closer

then others,Haaa!

 

Well,The interesting to TCM is the first

piority,others are second.It's really a tough job to

study TCM in our country because there will always

books and books to study,5000 years has lots of books.

And you can never finished the study in your life but

you will willing to do so.

 

TCM is very attractive to a person who have been took

adventage from it.

 

So,if you want to get involvo to TCM world ,go ahead

and study it.

 

Jean

Jean

 

=====

 

 

--

< ºô ¸ô ¥Í ¬¡¡EºÉ ¦b ©_¼¯ > http://www.kimo.com.tw

[Guest guest]

That's

 

what I've been trying to say.

 

Thanks, Jean

 

The Diplomat

 

, Jeansu <jeansu009> wrote:

> Hi,Every one,

>

> I am a chinese .I think I had better provide some

> opinions while you discuss our study.

>

> TCM is around in our daily life.We use it in daily

> life.TCM is also part of our living philosophy.

> It all connect with our culture.

>

> We have many way to study TCM,Not only in schools but

> also you can study it by your self.The only problem

> is those good TCM theory are all written bu very old

> chinese language,even chinese can't understand very

> well unless with very good talent in traditional old

> chinese language. We read it and thinking how the old

> wisdom means ,read--think,repeat these proceduals.

>

> So,No matter any races people would like to study TCM

> very well,you have to learn chinese very well,and

> understand how chinese people think.put it in your

> piority,otherwise you can't never reach the top of

> TCM because it is our culture.Just like while we plan

> to study in USA,We have to pass TOFEL 550 and

> GRE,which is your culture and language.

>

> Secomnd,The TCM Herb is very difficult,too.It has its

> own circulation way,even some TCM doctor don't quite

> understand it.So,people want to learn TCM herb and

> doing research of TCM herb have to jump out the

> western style medication treatment process,other

> wise,you will get loss and without directions.

>

> TCM herbal fomula may not kill the becteria

> directery,TCM herb change the situation of the wound

> or budy condition,when you change the

> environment,becteria no longer can survival.

> Since the places no longer can live,becteria have to

> move away!Haa! This is what chinese people treat the

> infection.

>

> I mentioned put some TCM herb to kill the Becteria the

> other day was because this is your people's(none

> chinese) thinking process.

>

> Try to cross culture gap, then you will see how huge

> the TCM world is,just like ocean.It has no edge.

>

>

> Jean

>

> =====

>

>

> --

> < ºô ¸ô ¥Í ¬¡¡EºÉ ¦b ©_¼¯ > http://www.kimo.com.tw

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/26/01 11:52:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jramholz writes:

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound overly critical. I was just looking for specific examples or cases, rather than basic theory.

 

Did you get a chance to examine the pulses in this or other cases?

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

Thanks Jim: my reference was more general than you specifically. Your comment could be read differently which is why I asked. However, it did trigger my comment which is an attempt to create an awareness of the aggressive and paternalistic tone that often flies around this forum - myself included. I understand your frustration with 'theoretical' jargon.

Yes, I have felt some of the pulses of Dr Yang's cases, I did not feel this one. They matched those pulses described in the SHL. One exception was what Hammer calls 'ropy' which is an atherosclerotic pulse that is hyper defined from the surrounding connective tissue and is directly opposite the sensation of 'scattered' which feels as though it merges into the surrounding connective tissue. Shen and Hammer are the only individuals I have come across who discuss the relationship of the sensations outside the vessel to the sensations inside the vessel and vessel wall. They give concrete significance to these findings that proves to be consistent in the clinic.

 

Will

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

 

>

> This highlights Dr Yang's opinion that Si Ni San was not placed in the Shao

> Yin section only for comparative discourse about Shao Yin conditions. His

> opinion is that Zhang Zhong Jing considered Si Ni San a critical Shao Yin

> formula. This is clearly different from the opinion of major Beijing

> luminaries that Si Ni San was used to compare with Si Ni Tang and

> contextualize concepts of Jue Ni patterns.

>

> Will

 

Thanks, Will

 

[Guest guest]

Will:

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound overly critical. I was just looking for

specific examples or cases, rather than basic theory.

 

Did you get a chance to examine the pulses in this or other cases?

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

 

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

> In a message dated 9/25/01 9:32:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> jramholz writes:

>

>

> > Will:

> >

> > If the formulas and treatment strategies are that effective, can

you

> > share them with us?

> >

>

> Jim... " If the formulas and strategies are that effective " what is

the intent

> of this portion of the question?

>

> I will share one case with you, however, it is with a degree of

hesitancy

> since I often feel attacked when sharing information in this forum.

>

> Example Shao Yin †" Jue Yin

> 1.5 yr old child, March, three day fever, rash, runny nose, tears,

> diarrhea, greenish blue stool, high fever, eyes fixed, measles,

> drowsiness, nutrition is moderate, lips are purple, skin is pale,

rashes,

> rales in the lungs, heart beat is strong, rate is normal, knee

reflex is

> overexcited, stiff neck, pneumonia w/ cerebral attack, toxins

stimulate

> the CNS, convulsions severe, left side upper and lower extremities

are

> stiff, eyes looking upward, drugs for suppressing the convulsions

don't

> work.

>

> This patient has a Shao Yin heat pattern transferring to Jue Yin

Shao Yin

> heat

>

> Treatment: Si Ni San plus Gou Teng and Bo He. After

> three bags the patient was cured, Si Ni San is not just for

gastritis, it is important for rescuing the dying.

>

>

>

> This highlights Dr Yang's opinion that Si Ni San was not placed in

the Shao

> Yin section only for comparative discourse about Shao Yin

conditions. His

> opinion is that Zhang Zhong Jing considered Si Ni San a critical

Shao Yin

> formula. This is clearly different from the opinion of major

Beijing

> luminaries that Si Ni San was used to compare with Si Ni Tang and

> contextualize concepts of Jue Ni patterns.

>

> Will

[Guest guest]

Hi,Yulong,

 

You are welcome.

 

Jean

 

=====

 

 

--

< ºô ¸ô ¥Í ¬¡¡EºÉ ¦b ©_¼¯ > http://www.kimo.com.tw

[Guest guest]

Will,

 

an attempt to create an awareness of the aggressive and

> paternalistic tone that often flies around this forum - myself

included. I

> understand your frustration with 'theoretical' jargon.

 

I want to respond to this remark because

I think it compromises the integrity of

the forum. I hope you'll receive it in

the spirit in which it is offered, as you

display some displeasure with what flies

around here. I'm writing it in the open

forum rather than in private, well, because

we're doing it here. I always dislike it

when people take such discussions off the

list, as it leaves a void in the public

record. And I share your desire to create

greater awareness.

 

I post to this list in order to expose

my thoughts to those whom I know to be

in disagreement with them. The reasons for

doing this are several, but foremost is

the fact that I, like most of us I reckon,

often can't see my own errors and weaknesses. Those

who point them out to me tend to become my closest

and most valuable friends. The more aggressive,

the better.

 

I aggressively point to what seem to be

errors made by others in the assumption that they

have similar objectives.

 

I don't agree with your use of the word

paternalistic in a derogative sense. My

dearest teachers have had a decidedly

paternalistic attitude towards their

students. In fact, the notion of teacher

in Chinese is intimatly linked to the

notion of parent. A similar linkage

exists in the States where teachers

stand in the eyes of the law in loco

parentis. In other words, my personal

experience in Chinese medicine has taught

me that teachers function as surrogate

parents for those whom they teach.

I realize you meant to use the word

in its negative sense, and that is

precisely what I'm disagreeing with.

 

The sterness of either parents or teachers

may be unpleasant but it is a necessary

thing.

 

The role of teacher is a burden. You

know this far better than I. Even those

who accept it willingly have to deal

with its burdens, its responsibilities

and its vulnerabilities.

 

There is a wonderful little essay

by Yan Xin, the qi4 gong1 master,

called 80 Characters on Qi4 Gong1.

I don't know if it's available in

English, but there's an extensive

presence on the web associated with

Yan Xin qi4 gong1 where his published

works can be found. I am not a follower

of his. I just mention it because it's

a memorable little bit of writing and

it contains a thought that I think

applies to our discussions.

 

The charcter teacher appears among these

80, and one of the things that Dr. Yan says

about it is that it's a very good idea to

let everybody be your teacher. Learn

from everybody.

 

I believe that a correlate to this

attitude is that we should all be

willing to teach each other. I think

if we all accept both the opportunities

to learn from and teach one another and that

if we exhibit paternalistic attitudes

including one of the most important,

perseverance, then the role of this

forum grows in value.

 

The processes of exchange in which we

clash as we test ideas on one another

are bound to have rough spots. We're

all just human beings with the whole

range of emotions, feelings, senitivities

and sensibilities.

 

That is what I expect from the group

and why I am a member. I urge you not

to complain about it but to embrace it.

The frictions that we generate here

can serve to refine our thoughts, our

understanding, and our roles as teachers,

students, practitioners, and human beings.

 

I know I say it all the time, but I

only do so because it is so accurate.

Opposition is true friendship.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Ken I appreciate your input.

Opposition is a force I have no problem with. I encourage it for the purpose of discourse in my classrooms. My reference is to the tone and intent. Were the communications done in the benevolent mode your associate with the term paternalistic, I would have no reason to name it.

I am of the opinion that respect and kindness form an excellent basis for hashing through material so that realizations are found. So with your input I will continue to hold for authentic communication takes place in a way that is mutually beneficial.

 

Will

 

In a message dated 9/27/01 8:50:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, yulong writes:

 

 

 

That is what I expect from the group

and why I am a member. I urge you not

to complain about it but to embrace it.

The frictions that we generate here

can serve to refine our thoughts, our

understanding, and our roles as teachers,

students, practitioners, and human beings.

[Guest guest]

Will

>

> Opposition is a force I have no problem with. I encourage it for

the purpose

> of discourse in my classrooms. My reference is to the tone and

intent. Were

> the communications done in the benevolent mode your associate with

the term

> paternalistic, I would have no reason to name it.

>

> I am of the opinion that respect and kindness form an excellent

basis for

> hashing through material so that realizations are found. So with

your input I

> will continue to hold for authentic communication takes place in a

way that

> is mutually beneficial.

>

May it be so.

But even if it gets rowdy, it's all

good. Ideas need to be challenged.

We need to be called to account for

things we say or we get sloppy.

 

The process is a valuable thing and

one for which I am grateful.

 

Thank you.

 

Ken