Pulse Study

June 11, 2001

In many ways this makes sense, however I would also like to see some of the more adept at taking the pulse do so under controlled envierment. I think we can learn a lot from it.

Alon

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Al Stone

Monday, June 11, 2001 10:41 AM

Re: Re: Pulse Study

jramholz wrote:> > Alon:> > The idea of a study about pulses sounds very interesting. But I think> there's too much variability in the methods by which people examine> the pulses and their personal sensitivity in sensing the pulses to> make it a reliable test or tell us something interesting unless that> those features of the group are taken into account first. Especially> if you're trying to match the reliability of pulse diagnosis to> Western diagnosis.There are a few of us in Santa Monica wrestling with these exact issues.Terry Oleson is the key researcher. It is my feeling that our attempts to agree on the 28 some-odd pulsequalities is a waste of time, at least in regards to the interatabilityresearch. What I am pushing for in the study that we're working on isthat we should simplify the pulse information and rate that. All of thesimple characteristics end up being melted into the 28 qualities anyway.So, the research looks like this:Pulse width. from thin to thick. Pulse speed: from slow to fast (or 40 bpm to 120 bpm)Pulse depth: from superficial to deepPulse strength: from weak to strongPulse rhythm: from arrythmic to regular rhythmPulse length: from short to longThen, we're adding a few opportunities to describe the wave form, whichwill probably for our purposes be limited to wiry, slippery and hesitant/choppy.I think that trying to get two people to agree on thin versus threadyversus deficient versus hidden versus scattered is not a viable methodto prove interatability.-- Al Stone L.Ac.<AlStonehttp://www.BeyondWellBeing.comPain is inevitable, suffering is optional.Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

June 11, 2001

There's a pool of practitioners who do the Shen/Hammer system that might be large enough to draw on and have a consistent and reliable result. Will Morris would have better insight into how many in that system could participate and offer a consistent level of diagnositic ability to match against Western diagnosis.>>>>>I think there are many things we can look at, not just consistency. One can also be used as its own control. For example, we can give the same patient while the tester is blinded more than once. We can look at information from the pulse matched to proposed treatments and see if there is clinical usefulness in a blind setting, i.e. when the pulse taker does not know anything about the patient. And many more!

I just would like us to get together and do something on the subject. So far only MD run studies have been done, for the most part. We need to design and do studies on our own.

I can provide a good patient pool with complete medical history.

Alon

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jramholz

Monday, June 11, 2001 5:09 AM

Re: Pulse Study

Alon:The idea of a study about pulses sounds very interesting. But I think there's too much variability in the methods by which people examine the pulses and their personal sensitivity in sensing the pulses to make it a reliable test or tell us something interesting unless that those features of the group are taken into account first. Especially if you're trying to match the reliability of pulse diagnosis to Western diagnosis.I just finished teaching the second section of my Advanced Pulse Diagnosis seminar, and was surprised at the variablity of practitioners' sensitivity. They often could follow along or feel something in the pulse only when I showed them. This was more the case when we examined 5-depths for localized lesions or problems (for example, scar tissue from lung surgery or the softness of the cervix in a woman past due to give birth)---a perspective from which we can more readily speak in both Eastern and Western terms.There's a pool of practitioners who do the Shen/Hammer system that might be large enough to draw on and have a consistant and reliable result. Will Morris would have better insight into how many in that system could participate and offer a consistant level of diagnositic ability to match against Western diagnosis.But those concerns aside, a study would be interesting. I would personally be more interested to see how pulse diagnosis can track the localized lesions you speak of in your work.Jim Ramholz, <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> How soon can you send me an airline ticket> >>>>Unless I get funding from Kaiser, which I do not I will, this will have to be on a volunteer bases. But don't you think we need to do such a study.> AlonChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

June 11, 2001

Is there any published material on this part of pulse diagnosis? one of my teachers in Malaysia used to use this method but I have not seen any litrature on the subject.

This was more the

case when we examined 5-depths for localized lesions or problems (for

example, scar tissue from lung surgery or the softness of the cervix

in a woman past due to give birth)---a perspective from which we can

more readily speak in both Eastern and Western terms.

Jim Ramholz