Guest guest Posted January 3, 2001 Report Share Posted January 3, 2001 , " " < zrosenberg@e...> wrote: > > Liver qi xu: pale lusterless complexion, pale lips, poor muscle strength, > tendency to frighten easily, tinnitus and deafness. . Zev What is the source of these s/s? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2001 Report Share Posted January 4, 2001 on 1/3/01 10:39 PM, at wrote: > , " " < > zrosenberg@e...> wrote: > >> >> Liver qi xu: pale lusterless complexion, pale lips, poor muscle strength, >> tendency to frighten easily, tinnitus and deafness. . > > Zev > > What is the source of these s/s? > > > > Primarily the Practical Dictionary. Z'ev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2001 Report Share Posted January 4, 2001 , " " < zrosenberg@e...> wrote: > > Zev > > > > What is the source of these s/s? > > > > > > > > > > Primarily the Practical Dictionary. > > Z'ev thanks. I checked the source. It is not a well defined discete pattern. there are no tongue and pulse signs given and unlike many entries in the PD, there are no therapeutic recommendations. The pattern seems to be covered by liver blood xu, general qi xu and GB qi xu. The formula suggestion of nuan gan jian does not seem to address the sx complex. However, sionneau lists the lv/gb vacuity as a pattern for susceptibility to fright. He lists ht/gb vacuity as a pattern for susceptibility to fear. In both cases, we see pale tongue with thin fur and fine or weak pulse. Lv/gb qi vacuity is treated with modified si junzi tang plus yuan zhi,bai shao and suan zao ren, thus it matches the patterns of qi xu plus lv/ht blood xu. the formula for ht/gb qi xu is also similar. Shi wei wen dan tang is a wen dan tang variation but also can be understood as a modified liu junzi tang, again with suan zao ren, yuan zhi,but also sheng di and wu wei zi. thus qi xu plus ht blood xu is addressed by this rx,as well. However,it also clears phlegm from the heart and regulates qi. I'd be interested in the page cites from li dong yuan and zhudanxi, so I can pursue this further. However,at first glance, there doesn't seem to be anything about the qi xu symptoms in this syndrome that lead me to distinguish this pattern from general qi xu with liver blood xu. The pattern also seems to be somewhat covered by bugantang, which addresses those patterns. Since the liver does not produce qi, it would seem that liver qi vacuity would often be subsumed to other patterns that reflect the root source of the lack of qi, such as kd or sp or lu qi xu. However, sionneau quotes without citation that braveness arises from the sufficiency of lv/gb qi, while the lack thereof results in fear. but the lack thereof seems to be rooted in other qi producing organs, not the liver itself. this seems relected in the indicated formulas. the exception is that sudden fright may damage the lv/gb directly (according to sionneau). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2001 Report Share Posted January 4, 2001 on 1/4/01 9:48 AM, at wrote: > > thanks. I checked the source. It is not a well defined discete > pattern. there are no tongue and pulse signs given and unlike many > entries in the PD, there are no therapeutic recommendations. The > pattern seems to be covered by liver blood xu, general qi xu and GB qi > xu. The formula suggestion of nuan gan jian does not seem to address > the sx complex. Nuan gan jian treats primarily liver yang and blood vacuity. . . .from what I can see, liver qi vacuity overlaps with liver blood and yang vacuity, as qi vacuity indicates a lack of functional ability, to regulate and move qi through the liver viscera and channel, and to transform blood. This leads to a cold, stagnant liver, and a loss of functional qualities. In another source, Qin Bo-wei says the following: " the liver may be in a state of qi vacuity and lack strength... .with symptoms of a vacuity detriment of liver qi (and yang) such as sluggishness, depression, gallbladder fright, headache, numbness and lack of warmth in the four extremities. " > > However, sionneau lists the lv/gb vacuity as a pattern for > susceptibility to fright. He lists ht/gb vacuity as a pattern for > susceptibility to fear. In both cases, we see pale tongue with thin > fur and fine or weak pulse. Lv/gb qi vacuity is treated with modified > si junzi tang plus yuan zhi,bai shao and suan zao ren, thus it matches > the patterns of qi xu plus lv/ht blood xu. Again, we don't see pure liver qi vacuity, but mixed patterns. This script looks like bu gan tang, and makes perfect sense. I would also consider huang qi, which recent Chinese studies indicates benefits to the liver in high dosages. To quote the article ( " The Use of Rx. Astragali in Liver Depression/Huang Jian-ge " ): " An etiology of liver depression may be a qi vacuity which lacks the strength to course and drain; it is not always repletion pattern. Liver qi vacuity deteriment was recognized early on. For instance, the chapter " Treatise on true heaven of the ancients in the Simple Questions/shang gu tian zhen lun states 'seven or eight times out of ten the liver qi is depleted and the sinew cannot move'. > > the formula for ht/gb qi xu is also similar. Shi wei wen dan tang is a > wen dan tang variation but also can be understood as a modified liu > junzi tang, again with suan zao ren, yuan zhi,but also sheng di and wu > wei zi. thus qi xu plus ht blood xu is addressed by this rx,as well. > However,it also clears phlegm from the heart and regulates qi. I'd be > interested in the page cites from li dong yuan and zhudanxi, so I can > pursue this further. > I am waiting for Will Morris to respond on this. > However,at first glance, there doesn't seem to be anything about the qi > xu symptoms in this syndrome that lead me to distinguish this pattern > from general qi xu with liver blood xu. The pattern also seems to be > somewhat covered by bugantang, which addresses those patterns. Since > the liver does not produce qi, it would seem that liver qi vacuity > would often be subsumed to other patterns that reflect the root source > of the lack of qi, such as kd or sp or lu qi xu. However, sionneau > quotes without citation that braveness arises from the sufficiency of > lv/gb qi, while the lack thereof results in fear. but the lack thereof > seems to be rooted in other qi producing organs, not the liver itself. > this seems relected in the indicated formulas. the exception is that > sudden fright may damage the lv/gb directly (according to sionneau). Your points are well taken. I hope my quotations help clarify the scenario a bit more as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2001 Report Share Posted January 4, 2001 , " " < zrosenberg@e...> wrote: > I hope my quotations help clarify the scenario > a bit more as well. > Yes they do indeed. thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2001 Report Share Posted January 4, 2001 At 5:48 PM +0000 1/4/01, wrote: >However,at first glance, there doesn't seem to be anything about the qi >xu symptoms in this syndrome that lead me to distinguish this pattern >from general qi xu with liver blood xu. The pattern also seems to be >somewhat covered by bugantang, which addresses those patterns. Since >the liver does not produce qi, it would seem that liver qi vacuity >would often be subsumed to other patterns that reflect the root source >of the lack of qi, such as kd or sp or lu qi xu. -- I agree. Although Qin Bowei discusses liver qi and deficiency of liver qi, he does not discuss this as a treatable syndrome. In his discussion of liver, he gives an extensive breakdown of liver syndromes, and he has no listing for liver qi xu. It seems from the Anthology that he does not define a qi xu syndrome for the liver until it manifests as a specific dysfunction, in which case it has a more specific name such as liver depression or reversal. From this I think it is fair enough to speak of liver qi vacuity as a background for syndromes, but not as a syndrome itself. Perhaps Chip Chace can chime in on this, as he may have access to other materials that he has yet to translate for us (hint). Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2001 Report Share Posted January 4, 2001 , Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote: > >xu symptoms in this syndrome that lead me to distinguish this It seems from the > Anthology that he does not define a qi xu syndrome for the liver > until it manifests as a specific dysfunction, in which case it has a > more specific name such as liver depression or reversal. From this I > think it is fair enough to speak of liver qi vacuity as a background > for syndromes, but not as a syndrome itself. > > Rory Good Point. I don't have the anthology handy where I am. I should have read your post first. Tomorrow I'm going to take a look at Li dong yuan and zhu dan xi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2001 Report Share Posted January 5, 2001 on 1/4/01 10:51 PM, at wrote: >> Anthology that he does not define a qi xu syndrome for the liver >> until it manifests as a specific dysfunction, in which case it has a >> more specific name such as liver depression or reversal. From this I >> think it is fair enough to speak of liver qi vacuity as a background >> for syndromes, but not as a syndrome itself. >> >> Rory > Clinically, where I have observed liver qi xu is in later stages of liver cirrhosis, hepatitis C, multiple sclerosis, post-alcoholism or drug use or other long-term diseases of wasting or liver damage, again, as you note, combined with other patterns such as liver blood vacuity, liver depression or other visceral patterns (sp qi xu, kd qi xu). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2001 Report Share Posted January 5, 2001 At 6:51 AM +0000 1/5/01, wrote: >Tomorrow I'm going to take a look at Li >dong yuan and zhu dan xi. --- These books are poorly indexed. I reviewed each book and was unable to find anything relevant to this discussion, but I could easily have missed it. Perhaps Will can put his finger on the reference. Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2001 Report Share Posted January 5, 2001 At 7:59 AM -0800 1/5/01, wrote: >Clinically, where I have observed liver qi xu is in later stages of liver >cirrhosis, hepatitis C, multiple sclerosis, post-alcoholism or drug use or >other long-term diseases of wasting or liver damage, again, as you note, >combined with other patterns such as liver blood vacuity, liver depression >or other visceral patterns (sp qi xu, kd qi xu). -- But how do you separate out liver qi xu? Undoubtedly you are right that the liver qi is deficient, because it is implicit in some other syndromes. Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2001 Report Share Posted January 6, 2001 Rory: <<Are you saying that Li is recommending BXYQT for liver vacuity, or any other liver pattern for that matter? When you say it works, what do you mean?>> No I am stating that BZYQT works for Liver Qi Xu patterns (primarily because of the Chai Hu content, it is at the Spleen end of the Liver-Spleen continuum, yet maintains an action on the Liver). If we are to express the possibility of the superior physician, prevention is required, I would suggest that waiting for a frank symptological picture is practicing a game of catchup. Large doses of Huang Qi are my primary strategy, however, Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang works for the various patterns listed below when appropriately modified, and this is a distinctly different use than for conventional Spleen patterns or recovery from infections. This Liver Qi Xu will necessarily affect the coursing and draining, storage and releasing of Blood, the state of the sinews, and the sociopolitical position as General (self esteem, planning, council to the Emperor). Zev, I just can't go with Vacuity - it makes no sense - Xu is more eloquent for me. Will Attachment: vcard [not shown] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2001 Report Share Posted January 6, 2001 At 11:27 AM -0800 1/6/01, Will wrote: >No I am stating that BZYQT works for Liver Qi Xu patterns (primarily >because of the >Chai Hu content, it is at the Spleen end of the Liver-Spleen >continuum, yet maintains an >action on the Liver). -- OK, I understand what you're saying, but I'm not clear what the criteria are for the liver pattern, and for the effectiveness of the treatment. For instance, are you saying that the criteria for liver qi xu is an empty left guan position alone, or are there other confirming symptoms you need? > If we are to express the possibility of the superior physician, >prevention is required, I would suggest that waiting for a frank >symptological picture is >practicing a game of catchup. -- I couldn't agree more. Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2001 Report Share Posted January 7, 2001 on 1/6/01 11:27 AM, Will at will wrote: > > Zev, I just can't go with Vacuity - it makes no sense - Xu is more eloquent > for me. > > Will Will, I cannot understand why no one in our profession has any trouble with counterintuitive biomedical language. Even lay people seem to have little problem with it. . .my patients, for example, are very versed in it. It is quite arbitrary, based on obscure latin roots, but does the job. It is also quite standardized. For example, thrombocytopenia. Why not just say, 'having fewer than the number of platelets per unit of volume of blood'? If you look in the Practical Dictionary, you will see why vacuity makes sense, and why it is a better term choice than deficiency (although I have no problem with deficiency, per se). This has been discussed enough in the literature that I don't need to add more here. As far as xu goes, Pinyin in and of itself is a bridge between Chinese and English, but doesn't express inate meaning without access to the original character. It gets quite clumsy if you have sentences that are replete with technical terms. For further extrapolation on the Pinyin issue, go to paradigm-pubs.com, go to the reference section, pull down the Nigel Wiseman menu, and download " A Reply to Buck and Maciocia " . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.