herniated disks/was cluster headaches

December 8, 2000

Re:Nhung Ta

Is there a CHA member somewhere in Florida that could possibly work with

Nhung on a couple herniated disc patients and write a case study for us all

to learn from seeing he is eager to share the knowledge. It may because of

some synergistic effect of combining the herbs with qi gong etc .

Re: Todd

I have tried variations of Du Huo Ji Shen Tang (after reading about it in

one of Flaws research repot)s on herniated discs but with limited

results.Though I didn't use the higher doses as you advised. Especially

using 20 grams as you pointed out that some clinics do.

Often when ever I try to go for higher doses it gets tricky because of the

patients underlying yin/yang xu or damp etc and the tonics aggravate the

heat or cause bloating etc ....so I go back to smaller doses over a longer

period of time. I have often wondered if large doses of xu duan or gu sui bu

ie maybe up to 30 grams of raw herb could really help the disc problem. Some

doctors in China use large amounts to treat bone cancer etc.Has anyone ever

tried these larger amounts?

Re:Alon

Why do you use long dan cao for disc problems?

Heiko Lade

Registered Acupuncturist / Chinese Herbalist

2 Jenkins St.

Green Island, Dunedin

New Zealand

Tel: (03) 488 4086, Fax: (03) 488 4012

http://www.lade.com/heiko

Email: heiko

December 9, 2000

Nhung

Sorry for mistaking your gender.

I am certainly not angry ,just eager to learn more about treating disc

problems. I look forward to Acuschiff's experiences.

Heiko Lade

Registered Acupuncturist / Chinese Herbalist

2 Jenkins St.

Green Island, Dunedin

New Zealand

Tel: (03) 488 4086, Fax: (03) 488 4012

http://www.lade.com/heiko

Email: heiko

December 31, 2000

, " heiko " <heiko@l...> wrote:

> Have you or anyone had experience with herniated discs. And success with

preventing an operation.

>

Ah. that depends on the extent of the herniation. I have never seen a

severe herniation effectively reduced without surgery. But mild ones

sometimes heal with strict bed rest after the rupture, so I think that

range gives TCM a window of usefulness somewhere near the bedrest side

of the spectrum. Herniation usually occurs due to degeneration of the

vertebra, so proper nutrition and attention to spleen/stomach function

is vital. I usually recommend a low dose multivitamin and mineral in

addition to good diet. I admittedly give the vitamins without regard

to their " energetics " , but at fairly low doses also. I think megadoses

of vitamins have medicinal like action and should be considered more

carefully; I also think it is reasonable within the strictures of TCM

that a medicinal may have food value for at a low dosage, yet be able

to address specific sx at high dosages and even have the potential for

side effects. Some that come to mind are gou qizi and wu mei.

Since the bones have weakened and become brittle, some kidney

supplementation is often warranted. However the acute manifestation

also has characteristics of an injury, which suggests a component of

blood stasis. In my experience, some degree of blood stasis is always

present in these cases. The rest needs to be parsed out by

differentiation of actual signs and sx. While it may not be fancy or

exciting, I often find variations based upon du huo ji sheng tang to be

effective. The formula supplements spleen qi and kidney yin/yang and

liver blood. It is focused on the lower back with du huo and it

quickens blood. If these pathomechanisms are present, this basic

structure is a good place to start.

I will use about 4 grams TID of concentrated powder for a person of

about 150 lbs, adjusted up or down accordingly by weight. I usually

expect some results within a few days with increasing and obvious

improvement for several weeks afterwards. Then the patient plateaus

and further improvement is incremental and highly dependent upon

patient compliance with lifestyle and diet. After plateau has been

reached, patients can be maintained on lower maintenance doses. Taper

off to the lowest dose that seems to be effective (sometimes as much as

75% decrease).

I definitely find the dosage to be key. Using the powders at the label

indications of 6-9 g TID does not seem to be effective in the short

term with the any of the four brands I have tried. And the higher dose

of 12 g more closely approximates the strength of bulk herb formula

used both in university hospitals and modern research in china. The

an hao clinic in Portland, OR regularly uses formulas of these powders

at dosages of up to 20 g/ day to effectively treat serious disorders

like MS and Prostate cancer. When the pathogen is very strong and the

correct is very weak, evil must be strongly attacked and vacuity

abundantly supplemented.

January 1, 2001

Dear Tod,

I myself, usually, use Daihuang + luiwei after I gave to

my patients a treatment of TEN CHANNEL POINTS and SCRAPING combined with QI

GUNG . I never miss any patient who has herniated discs problem who

suppose to have surgery, but after my treatment they never have to go for

surgery,and the result usually 99%. I think, the cluster headaches with the

patient who have herniated problem, because the herniated related. If it

doesn't I use niuhuangchiehdu before I gave them face treatment points with

special tools. I would like to tell why, but my language is limited I do not

know how to describe the exact words. I only can tell what I did.

Nhung Ta

-

<

Sunday, December 31, 2000 6:29 PM

Re: herniated disks/was cluster headaches

> , " heiko " <heiko@l...> wrote:

>

> > Have you or anyone had experience with herniated discs. And success

with preventing an operation.

> >

>

> Ah. that depends on the extent of the herniation. I have never seen a

> severe herniation effectively reduced without surgery. But mild ones

> sometimes heal with strict bed rest after the rupture, so I think that

> range gives TCM a window of usefulness somewhere near the bedrest side

> of the spectrum. Herniation usually occurs due to degeneration of the

> vertebra, so proper nutrition and attention to spleen/stomach function

> is vital. I usually recommend a low dose multivitamin and mineral in

> addition to good diet. I admittedly give the vitamins without regard

> to their " energetics " , but at fairly low doses also. I think megadoses

> of vitamins have medicinal like action and should be considered more

> carefully; I also think it is reasonable within the strictures of TCM

> that a medicinal may have food value for at a low dosage, yet be able

> to address specific sx at high dosages and even have the potential for

> side effects. Some that come to mind are gou qizi and wu mei.

>

> Since the bones have weakened and become brittle, some kidney

> supplementation is often warranted. However the acute manifestation

> also has characteristics of an injury, which suggests a component of

> blood stasis. In my experience, some degree of blood stasis is always

> present in these cases. The rest needs to be parsed out by

> differentiation of actual signs and sx. While it may not be fancy or

> exciting, I often find variations based upon du huo ji sheng tang to be

> effective. The formula supplements spleen qi and kidney yin/yang and

> liver blood. It is focused on the lower back with du huo and it

> quickens blood. If these pathomechanisms are present, this basic

> structure is a good place to start.

>

> I will use about 4 grams TID of concentrated powder for a person of

> about 150 lbs, adjusted up or down accordingly by weight. I usually

> expect some results within a few days with increasing and obvious

> improvement for several weeks afterwards. Then the patient plateaus

> and further improvement is incremental and highly dependent upon

> patient compliance with lifestyle and diet. After plateau has been

> reached, patients can be maintained on lower maintenance doses. Taper

> off to the lowest dose that seems to be effective (sometimes as much as

> 75% decrease).

>

> I definitely find the dosage to be key. Using the powders at the label

> indications of 6-9 g TID does not seem to be effective in the short

> term with the any of the four brands I have tried. And the higher dose

> of 12 g more closely approximates the strength of bulk herb formula

> used both in university hospitals and modern research in china. The

> an hao clinic in Portland, OR regularly uses formulas of these powders

> at dosages of up to 20 g/ day to effectively treat serious disorders

> like MS and Prostate cancer. When the pathogen is very strong and the

> correct is very weak, evil must be strongly attacked and vacuity

> abundantly supplemented.

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

>

January 1, 2001

.. In my experience, some degree of blood stasis is always present in these cases.

>>>I find that adding huang bai, Zhi Nan Xing, Long Dan cao is helpful regardless of confirmation.

Alon

January 1, 2001

but after my treatment they never have to go forsurgery,and the result usually 99%.

>>>And what is the criteria for disc problem? This may be nondiplomatic but this 99% stuff is really gets me. Were do you practice perhaps I can bring some patients.

Alon

January 1, 2001

Dear Alon,

Yes, I will be very happy to , there are some

chiropractic come here for treatment and also learn from me some of my

unusual treatment. special I'm very interested of my discover epilepsy

treatment that I never miss with my TEN CHANNELS+ QIGONG+ SCRAPING+ HERBS.

One lady 29 years of Epilepsy, she borne by that way. I got rid of 100% and

many have suffering of symptom of epilepsy as anger, shouting, hated,

depression etc for no reason.and been many years of schychiatric with poison

pills, I also help them to get rid of those kind of symptom.

Nhung ta

-

<alonmarcus

Monday, January 01, 2001 1:21 PM

Re: Re: herniated disks/was cluster headaches

but after my treatment they never have to go for

surgery,and the result usually 99%.

>>>And what is the criteria for disc problem? This may be nondiplomatic but

this 99% stuff is really gets me. Were do you practice perhaps I can bring

some patients.

Alon

January 1, 2001

, <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> >>>And what is the criteria for disc problem? This may be nondiplomatic but

this 99% stuff is really gets me. Were do you practice perhaps I can bring some

patients.

> Alon

I'm with Alon. I do not think there is any way that a 99% success rate

can be achieved with disc herniations of greater than 5mm and unless I

see x-rays to prove it, I can't really accept this.

January 1, 2001

I do not think there is any way that a 99% success rate can be achieved with disc herniations of greater than 5mm and unless I see x-rays to prove it, I can't really accept this.>>>>Actually I do not care what the imaging say (xray does not show discs) but I want to see the dural tension signs as well as symptoms improve. The time frame is important as well as this condition improves on its own. For a free disc fragment its about 6 months

Alon

January 1, 2001

Dear

That why, If you have patients, and find some way

convenient for you or you can bring the patients or I can come to your

office if I live near by, I will do it for you to see it. In my country we

have some strange treatment, but it is very powerful. Those treatment base

from my ancestor and combine with some of my teachers treatment combine with

my develop treatment. I hope I can show every body my treatment if I can.

Nhung Ta

-

<

Monday, January 01, 2001 1:47 PM

Re: herniated disks/was cluster headaches

> , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

>

> > >>>And what is the criteria for disc problem? This may be nondiplomatic

but this 99% stuff is really gets me. Were do you practice perhaps I can

bring some patients.

> > Alon

>

> I'm with Alon. I do not think there is any way that a 99% success rate

> can be achieved with disc herniations of greater than 5mm and unless I

> see x-rays to prove it, I can't really accept this.

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

>

January 1, 2001

Dear Alon,

Well, I know that nobody will believe me if I say, I do

not need 6 month to prove my treatment. I can prove it after 2 month with

completed treatment for herniated. You will see the result of getting better

after one hour treatment

Nhung Ta

-

<alonmarcus

Monday, January 01, 2001 1:57 PM

Re: Re: herniated disks/was cluster headaches

I do not think there is any way that a 99% success rate

can be achieved with disc herniations of greater than 5mm and unless I

see x-rays to prove it, I can't really accept this.

>>>>Actually I do not care what the imaging say (xray does not show discs)

but I want to see the dural tension signs as well as symptoms improve. The

time frame is important as well as this condition improves on its own. For a

free disc fragment its about 6 months

Alon

January 1, 2001

Yes, I will be very happy to , there are somechiropractic come here for treatment and also learn from me some of myunusual treatment. special I'm very interested of my discover epilepsytreatment that I never miss with my TEN CHANNELS+ QIGONG+ SCRAPING+ HERBS.>>>>>Were do you practice

Alon

January 1, 2001

Well, I know that nobody will believe me if I say, I donot need 6 month to prove my treatment. I can prove it after 2 month withcompleted treatment for herniated. You will see the result of getting betterafter one hour treatment>>>I see improved s/s in one hours in some patients as well. I have to know more detail. Herniated disc is not enough information to tell me anything. Many patients have so called herniated discs on MRI but their symptoms have nothing to do with the disc.

Alon

January 1, 2001

Dear Alon,

I'm in 4424 Park Blvd, Pinellas Park, Florida 33781,

my web: htt://herbalchinesemedicine.netfirms.com

Nhung Ta

-

<alonmarcus

Monday, January 01, 2001 3:24 PM

Re: Re: herniated disks/was cluster headaches

Yes, I will be very happy to , there are some

chiropractic come here for treatment and also learn from me some of my

unusual treatment. special I'm very interested of my discover epilepsy

treatment that I never miss with my TEN CHANNELS+ QIGONG+ SCRAPING+ HERBS.

>>>>>Were do you practice

Alon

January 1, 2001

I'm in 4424 Park Blvd, Pinellas Park, Florida

I am in california

Alon

January 1, 2001

Dear Alon,

You are very good at it. yes, it's true, I treat many

patients who have herniated with out disc problem as most of them on the

belly area or on their chest or near by the stomach area. Some time you

have to give the patients the different formula as example qui pi wan.+

muli+ lungu( dragon bone) depend on your diagnose on your patients. It's too

much to talk about it, because as you talk about : herniated happen to many

different cases so, we have to do a different formula, depend on

Nhung Ta

-

<alonmarcus

Monday, January 01, 2001 3:31 PM

Re: Re: herniated disks/was cluster headaches

Well, I know that nobody will believe me if I say, I do

not need 6 month to prove my treatment. I can prove it after 2 month with

completed treatment for herniated. You will see the result of getting better

after one hour treatment

>>>I see improved s/s in one hours in some patients as well. I have to know

more detail. Herniated disc is not enough information to tell me anything.

Many patients have so called herniated discs on MRI but their symptoms have

nothing to do with the disc.

Alon

January 1, 2001

Why do you use long dan cao for disc problems?>>>I first seen this done in china. I can come up with many theoretical justification but to me it is just empirical

Alon

January 2, 2001

i would be willing to work with Nhung Ta if he was reasonably close to west

palm beach, and certainly document the treatment he so confidently writes

about for herniated disc. it would be a pleasure.

January 2, 2001

I wander if one can see herniation on the X-ray,I only saw misalignments?

January 2, 2001

Dear Heiko,

I'm a lady, not man. Studied in Vietnam, public medicine

school and private teachers for special method. I used to use my development

of treatment to combine with the special method that I have learned from

private teachers, sometime I use the acupuncture which I've learned in

school, but most of the time I do not. First I do not want to insult any of

my lists, because they are my club members, and I would like to share my

idea, but sometime I dare not to, because I'm afraid that they get angry. I

do not want any body get angry at me, special I consider as they are my best

friend sharing the knowledge to each other, the reason why I have to make

them angry when I lost my time to share my idea and the result is make

people angry. I do not have any benefit for that anger. So please forgive to

me if in case I do make you angry just because of my unskillful words of my

limited language.Because I studied in Vietnam, so I do not know special

language in medical field, so sometime hard for me to describe my idea. I

hope that the 2001 of this year will bring all of us more close together

than last year.

I have apology if my words make you unpleasant. I promise I'll try

harder as best as I can

Happy new year to all

Nhung Ta

-

heiko <heiko

Saturday, December 09, 2000 12:55 AM

Re: herniated disks/was cluster headaches

> Re:Nhung Ta

> Is there a CHA member somewhere in Florida that could possibly work with

> Nhung on a couple herniated disc patients and write a case study for us

all

> to learn from seeing he is eager to share the knowledge. It may because of

> some synergistic effect of combining the herbs with qi gong etc .

> Re: Todd

> I have tried variations of Du Huo Ji Shen Tang (after reading about it in

> one of Flaws research repot)s on herniated discs but with limited

> results.Though I didn't use the higher doses as you advised. Especially

> using 20 grams as you pointed out that some clinics do.

> Often when ever I try to go for higher doses it gets tricky because of

the

> patients underlying yin/yang xu or damp etc and the tonics aggravate the

> heat or cause bloating etc ....so I go back to smaller doses over a

longer

> period of time. I have often wondered if large doses of xu duan or gu sui

bu

> ie maybe up to 30 grams of raw herb could really help the disc problem.

Some

> doctors in China use large amounts to treat bone cancer etc.Has anyone

ever

> tried these larger amounts?

> Re:Alon

> Why do you use long dan cao for disc problems?

>

> Heiko Lade

> Registered Acupuncturist / Chinese Herbalist

> 2 Jenkins St.

> Green Island, Dunedin

> New Zealand

> Tel: (03) 488 4086, Fax: (03) 488 4012

> http://www.lade.com/heiko

> Email: heiko

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

>

January 2, 2001

No need to apologize for how you speak the language...

According to the BRITISH none of us can speak the language properly anyway!

:-)

HAPPY NEW YEAR.

Eagle

Nhung Ta [nhung.ta]

Tuesday, January 02, 2001 9:27 AM

Re: Re: herniated disks/was cluster

headaches