Guest guest Posted December 8, 2000 Report Share Posted December 8, 2000 Cara Michael Max ,a US practitioner has writen a good article for an Australian journal on the use of dang gui in cough syndromes. Its useful for cough due to cool dryness (DG is moist and warm) and chronic coughs can lead to qi and blood stagnation for which dang gui is also usefull. He has provided his email address michaelmax perhaps he can post his article on the CHA list. I had heard about doctors in Hangzhou using large amounts of Dang gui (30 g) for chronic coughs. Heiko Lade Registered Acupuncturist / Chinese Herbalist 2 Jenkins St. Green Island, Dunedin New Zealand Tel: (03) 488 4086, Fax: (03) 488 4012 http://www.lade.com/heiko Email: heiko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2000 Report Share Posted December 8, 2000 Cara Australian and Education Research Council Journal. Started by Steven Clavey ........comes out bi monthly ....cheap esp the way the US $ is !! Their email is shentcm Heiko Lade Registered Acupuncturist / Chinese Herbalist 2 Jenkins St. Green Island, Dunedin New Zealand Tel: (03) 488 4086, Fax: (03) 488 4012 http://www.lade.com/heiko Email: heiko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2000 Report Share Posted December 30, 2000 Hi Peter, At the risk of again being heretical... I don't feel that " channels entered " is relevent to herbalism in general. I think it's a wierd acupuncture glitch on a long history of Chinese herbalism. I agree with Todd in that it is only meaningful information if we can apply it clinically. So, if a plant enters so-and-so meridian, it must reflect it in the actions and indications. If the " meridian entered " doesn't show up as an action, how are we to use that information? I don't teach my students the " channels entered " just for that reason. > Bai Zhu is classified as bitter and sweet. What about that tangy taste? > Huang Qi and Dang Shen are both classified as only sweet. But both, to me, > have a hint of bitterness. As far as tastes go, my observation is that some tonics are classified as sweet simply because they are tonics, not because they actually taste sweet. This is somewhat like some of my Chinese teachers who would only feel a floating pulse if they actually heard a patient say that they had a cold.... so the data was modified to fit the theory... How useful taste is as to determining therapeutic function is open to question. My perception is that bitter and sour are quite useful, acrid somewhat so, and sweet not very useful at all. And I believe that no matter what the books say, we can trust our taste buds. > If we followed our senses and theories to rediscover the Chinese > pharmacopeia, I propose that we would totally rewrite the book (or, more > likely, many opposing books). I hope so. > No such history (of channels entered, > etc.) exists for most Western herbs, and who's to say our guesses would be > correct? (Does it matter?) I don't think so. > We might taste red clover and say it's sweet > and slightly bitter. But it's a deobstruent, and in Chinese medicine all > flowers except xuan fu hua disperse (according to my teacher Guohui Liu, who > graduated from Chengdu, a university heavily steeped in the classics), I wouldn't generalize about any plant part, at least not in that way. > If we, as clinicians and scholars of this medicine, couldn't necessarily > come up with the same definitions of our materia medica that the ancients > did, why should we trust Holmes to do so with the Western pharmacopeia? > This isn't an attack, just a question. We shouldn't trust him at all. We should learn the underlying language and logic of our own pharmecopeia, consider what he has said, then check it out for ourselves. > In fact, I'd love to hear some > convincing arguments, because his is one of the only texts of its kind & I > just don't know whether to spend my money on it or not. (Same with Jade > Remedies - though it's less pioneering, I know he makes up a lot of new > terminology, and I 'd welcome more people's opinions.) Well you know how I feel about his first book. I don't think Jade Remedies has much to offer us as practitioners, unless we want to return to symptomatic herbalism. Aloha, David -- ************************* David Leonard, L.Ac. Medicine at your Feet 808.573.3600 http://www.medicineatyourfeet.com Herbal Apprenticeship Program and Distance Learning Healing Vacations / Hawaiian Adventure Programs Advanced Herbal Training for Acupuncturists Acupuncture, Bodywork, & Qigong (Chinese Yoga) Subscribe to our newsletter: http://www.medicineatyourfeet.com/.html Join our discussion group: herbalmedicine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2000 Report Share Posted December 30, 2000 This is somewhat like some of my Chinese teachers who would only feel a floating pulse if they actually heard a patient say thatthey had a cold.... so the data was modified to fit the theory... >>>this always bothered me a lot. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2000 Report Share Posted December 30, 2000 David Leonard wrote: > I don't feel that " channels entered " is relevent to herbalism in general. I think it's a wierd acupuncture glitch on a long history of Chinese herbalism. I agree with Todd in that it is only meaningful information if we can apply it > clinically. Well, look at the difference between Sheng Di, (Liver, Kidney and heart) and Mai Men Dong (heart, lung and stomach). Certainly the taste in this case indicates its usage. Arbitrary? I think not. I don't stress the qualities of the herbs because its more important they get the actions first and too much time can be wasted studying the details without having a clue what the herb does. Yes, some herbs are classified as sweet because they are tonifiers. that is the point. " taste " may not be the best word to use. I would like to see more qualities emphasized in terms of directionality of the herbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2000 Report Share Posted December 30, 2000 we've all had inventive teachers... who had to maintain FACE. How often do our own ego's get in the way of our ability to risk looking stupid and asking about something we really don't understand. alonmarcus [alonmarcus]Saturday, December 30, 2000 9:39 AM Subject: Re: Natures and channels This is somewhat like some of my Chinese teachers who would only feel a floating pulse if they actually heard a patient say thatthey had a cold.... so the data was modified to fit the theory... >>>this always bothered me a lot. AlonChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2000 Report Share Posted December 30, 2000 risk looking stupid and asking about something we really don't understand. >>>I do this often infront of students as well as patients Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2000 Report Share Posted December 30, 2000 David, If you will permit me to speculate on one remark you made, I think it will serve as an illustrative example of what those who urge the study and comprehension of the Chinese characters and terms consider when making such advice. At the risk of again being heretical... I don't feel that " channels entered " is relevent to herbalism in general. I think it's a wierd acupuncture glitch on a long history of Chinese herbalism. I agree with Todd in that it is only meaningful information if we can apply it clinically. So, if a plant enters so-and-so meridian, it must reflect it in the actions and indications. If the " meridian entered " doesn't show up as an action, how are we to use that information? I don't teach my students the " channels entered " just for that reason. My speculation is that the problem you've had with understanding and applying the " channels entered " concept pivots on the meaning of the word " entered. " I find this a common stumbling block in the path of students who study these ideas in English more or less to the exclusion of Chinese. What, indeed could it possibly mean for an herb to " enter " a channel? When we invest a few minutes of time with a dictionary or two we find that the meaning of " enter " which sets up the conflict (for those who understand only this one meaning of " enter " ) is not the only meaning of the Chinese word which has been translated here as " enter. " The other meanings include notions with a curious span of conceptual territory, such as: the marriage of a woman; to return to; to revert; to go back; to belong to; to restore; to send back. (quoting from the Revised American edition of Matthews, 1974) The struggle with understanding can follow different paths. If one takes the five or ten minutes that are required to look up the word, suddenly a wealth of new information is made available with which one can fashion an understanding of the medical concept. Now I am not an herbalist and I don't routinely face clinical problems begging to be unraveled with this aspect of theory. But it seems to me that one of the categories of questions that any clinician would be interested in contains questions relating herbs to channels and organs. This concept does precisely that. You can see from the wide range of ideas contained in the definitions of this word gui1, that choosing any single English word to try and embody the range of meanings of the Chinese term is doomed to failure. Here I differ, if I understand him correctly, with Dan Bensky. For it is at this precise juncture that I believe we come upon the desperate need for dictionaries and term standards. This is why it is simply not adequate to deal with the problems of translation by delving no deeper than selection of equivalent terms and leaving it at that. This approach simply leaves the bulk of the meanings hidden from view. It is this unseen bulk of meaning that results in the wholesale dismissal of altogether workable methodology. Your statement at the top of this message is evidence of just such a dismissal. But I'd say in this particular struggle, you have lost. Precisely, you have lost the use of a theoretical tool that could conceivably help your patients by making available to them an even more precise formulation of medicinals to match their conditions. As I understand this idea it implies that just as the channels gui1 (enter, return to, belong to, are married to, send back to, and so on) the zang and fu organs, so do herbs gui1 the channels and thereby the zang fu. All of this is understood to be effected and mediated by and in terms of the respective qi4 of the organs, channels, and herbs. Gui1 jing4 is a description of the interconnected corridors through which these interactions of qi4 take place. The notion of " channel entry " or gui1 jing1 is an eloquent and, I'd always thought, utilitarian expression of the theory of qi4 and yin1 and yang2 applied to the correspondence between herbs and the body in terms of jing1 luo4 and zang4 fu3. It is an application of a broad principle of Chinese medicine, contained in the phrase tian1 ren2 he2 yi1. This phrase lies at the roots of what we refer to as the holism of Chinese medical thinking. It means heaven and mankind merge into one. The theory of gui1 jing4 provides a method to express the interpenetration of specific herbs with respect to specific organ and channel systems in the body, i.e. it particularizes the knowledge of heaven (here the natural substance of the various herbs) and mankind (here differentiated into constituent organ/channel systems) uniting. I am sad to see it fall into disuse. If my speculation is correct, such a loss is needless and can be prevented by the dissemination of information. If my speculation is incorrect, then perhaps you can explain more clearly how you rationalize the foreshortening of clinical theory by dispensing as a " weird glitch " an element thereof that is included in most of the texts that have been compiled on the subject for many centuries Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2000 Report Share Posted December 30, 2000 If my speculation is correct, such a lossis needless and can be prevented by thedissemination of information. If myspeculation is incorrect, then perhaps youcan explain more clearly how you rationalizethe foreshortening of clinical theory bydispensing as a "weird glitch" an element thereof that is included in most of the texts that have been compiled on the subject for many centuries >>>>May be simply by the fact that these were late additions to the literature and thus by people like you and David Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2000 Report Share Posted December 30, 2000 on 12/30/00 10:39 AM, Eagle at eagle wrote: (Eagle) we've all had inventive teachers... who had to maintain FACE. How often do our own ego's get in the way of our ability to risk looking stupid and asking about something we really don't understand. alonmarcus [alonmarcus] Saturday, December 30, 2000 9:39 AM Re: Natures and channels This is somewhat like some of my Chinese teachers who would only feel a floating pulse if they actually heard a patient say that they had a cold.... so the data was modified to fit the theory... >>>this always bothered me a lot. Alon This makes me a bit sad. I agree with Eagle, that sometimes the best thing to say is " I don't know " . There is a great deal of wisdom in that. However, I have seen many practitioners who can diagnose, easily at that, a wind/cold or wind/heat attack from a floating pulse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2000 Report Share Posted December 30, 2000 , yulong@m... wrote: > If my > speculation is incorrect, then perhaps you > can explain more clearly how you rationalize > the foreshortening of clinical theory by > dispensing as a " weird glitch " an element > thereof that is included in most of the > texts that have been compiled on the subject > for many centuries I think OM has an element of dogmatism in it. Things get written and copied in pulse books and materia medica, some of which seem to play little role in internal medicine texts and prescription manuals. Unschuld considers materia medica and prescription manuals to be two separate genres of medical literature that do not neatly overlap. The materia medica can delve very far into esoterica and abstraction, while prescription manuals have largely been pragmatic, utilizing theory when it is clinically useful and otherwise dispensing with it. Judith Farquhar presents a concurring argument throughout her volume " knowing practice " . the fact that generations of materia medica specialists have dogmatically copied the entering channel attributions of their favorite predecessors is not as relevant to me as the generations of prescription specialists who seem to have ignored much of this abstraction. This is the age-old tension between scholar/researcher and clinician. While I admittedly do not have access to the material Ken does, what I have been exposed to leads me to think that rather than falling into disuse, it is questionable whether these channel attributions ever really fell into common clinical use at all. Again, I refer to Xu Da chun, a neo classicist author presented by Unschuld in his " Forgotten Traditions... " . Xu, like many of his era, was very suspicious of these attributions and he considered them aberrations despite the fact they had appeared in materia medica for centuries already even in his time. an herb does what it does and no channel attribution changes that one iota and perhaps leads folks down strange paths as they make up new functions based on these highly speculative ideas. I can't ever recall seeing a formula chosen based on sophisticated channel theory that was somehow miraculous or even slightly more effective than one chosen more pragmatically (i.e. based on actions and indications). > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2000 Report Share Posted December 30, 2000 > I can't ever recall seeing a formula chosen based on > sophisticated channel theory that was somehow miraculous or even > slightly more effective than one chosen more pragmatically (i.e. based > on actions and indications). > Call me superstitious or something but I write formulas based on what the herb's channels go to. And every explanation of formulas has the channel, taste attributes as paramount. Do you ever hear, " Despite the fact that this herb Doesn't go to this channel and although it is Cold and this is a cold condition we will use it anyway. " ? As one gets to know the herbs better I've seen that these designations are hardly arbitrary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2000 Report Share Posted December 30, 2000 > Well, look at the difference between Sheng Di, (Liver, Kidney and heart) and Mai Men Dong (heart, lung and stomach). Certainly the taste in this case indicates its usage. Arbitrary? I think not. I don't stress the qualities of the herbs because its more important they get the > actions first and too much time can be wasted studying the details without having a clue what the herb does. Yes, some herbs are classified as sweet because they are tonifiers. that is the point. " taste " may not be the best word to use. I would like to see more qualities emphasized > in terms of directionality of the herbs. Doug, I wasn't implying that the taste is arbitrary or that it has no effect on the actions of the plant. The taste does affect the action of the plant. Some of the plants listed as sweet just don't taste sweet to me, that's all. I was saying that some of the " channels entered " information seems arbitrary. David -- ************************* David Leonard, L.Ac. Medicine at your Feet 808.573.3600 http://www.medicineatyourfeet.com Herbal Apprenticeship Program and Distance Learning Healing Vacations / Hawaiian Adventure Programs Advanced Herbal Training for Acupuncturists Acupuncture, Bodywork, & Qigong (Chinese Yoga) Subscribe to our newsletter: http://www.medicineatyourfeet.com/.html Join our discussion group: herbalmedicine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2000 Report Share Posted December 31, 2000 In case you're interested, an article that I wrote on the 5 flavors is posted on China Herb's web site. It was published in Traditional Chinese Medical World, which is a lay publication a few months ago, so the tone is simple. I feel the flavors are of paramount importance o understanding an herbs action. The taste, in fact dictates it's actions. this does not discredit channels entered, actions that we know of, etc. the problem I have found w/ channel ascription's is that it makes it harder to " think outside the box " . for instance, to pick up on a conversation that I had w/ Chip a couple of years ago: Once upon a time dang gui was purportedly used in respiratory Rx's. why no longer? Why in the first place? this bugged me for years. Finally I realized that it is because dang gui is antispasmodic. Uterine spasms, respiratory spasms, vascular spasms ( think Dang gui si ni tang) Maybe this fact was self evident to you all , but no one- none my teachers- could enlighten me about the dang gui conundrum. Later I was able to confirm my idea( can't remember the name of the materia medica- it's in my car right now- I'll get back about it). Now I include dang gui in resp rx's. I see it as a useful adjunct. a moistening antitussive. But you'll never see Dang Gui entering the Lung channel. Happy new year everyone. Good Health to us all. Cara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2000 Report Share Posted December 31, 2000 This makes me a bit sad. I agree with Eagle, that sometimes the best thing to say is "I don't know". >>>>I think that is what I said. There absolutely nothing wrong in saying I dont know or I have to look it up. I open books infront of patient daily. Alon - Saturday, December 30, 2000 6:26 PM Re: Natures and channels on 12/30/00 10:39 AM, Eagle at eagle wrote: (Eagle) we've all had inventive teachers... who had to maintain FACE.How often do our own ego's get in the way of our ability to risk looking stupid and asking about something we really don't understand. alonmarcus [alonmarcus]Saturday, December 30, 2000 9:39 AM Subject: Re: Natures and channelsThis is somewhat like some of my Chinese teachers who would only feel a floating pulse if they actually heard a patient say thatthey had a cold.... so the data was modified to fit the theory...>>>this always bothered me a lot.AlonThis makes me a bit sad. I agree with Eagle, that sometimes the best thing to say is "I don't know". There is a great deal of wisdom in that. However, I have seen many practitioners who can diagnose, easily at that, a wind/cold or wind/heat attack from a floating pulse. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2000 Report Share Posted December 31, 2000 , wrote: And every explanation of formulas has the channel, taste attributes as paramount. Doug, what sources are you using? I looked at about ten formula sources last night,including bensky and entering channels only figured into the analysis of the formula in about 10% of cases or less. treatment of Zang fu patterns is usually indicated, but that is different from entering channels to me. Zang fu patterns are specific s/s complexes, while entering channels are just abstractions unless there are corollary indications to peg them to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2000 Report Share Posted December 31, 2000 Tastes... hmmm, maybe this is where the wine industry has it over us in relation to describing tastes.... Often people, causal drinkers, will taste a wine and remark how sweet it is, when in reality the wine is not sweet at all. Given some wines are sweet... i.e. they still have sugars in the wine. But say a Zinfandel or Merlot... No Sugars. Normally considered DRY wine... because all the sugars have been converted. Yet the impression on the palette is sweet. Why? Because the tongue picks up the fruity tastes and the smell receptors note fruity smell and the " body memory " of this taste and smell is " Sweet " , but the experience in the body is " Dry " . Thus wine " tasters " have specific indicators that help describe a " Taste " . So sweet isn't always sweet, and the experience of a sweet taste isn't always indicative of sweetness. Life is in the experience... Happy New Millennium, David Eagle David Leonard [drkitsch] Saturday, December 30, 2000 11:00 PM Re: Natures and channels > Well, look at the difference between Sheng Di, (Liver, Kidney and heart) and Mai Men Dong (heart, lung and stomach). Certainly the taste in this case indicates its usage. Arbitrary? I think not. I don't stress the qualities of the herbs because its more important they get the > actions first and too much time can be wasted studying the details without having a clue what the herb does. Yes, some herbs are classified as sweet because they are tonifiers. that is the point. " taste " may not be the best word to use. I would like to see more qualities emphasized > in terms of directionality of the herbs. Doug, I wasn't implying that the taste is arbitrary or that it has no effect on the actions of the plant. The taste does affect the action of the plant. Some of the plants listed as sweet just don't taste sweet to me, that's all. I was saying that some of the " channels entered " information seems arbitrary. David -- ************************* David Leonard, L.Ac. Medicine at your Feet 808.573.3600 http://www.medicineatyourfeet.com Herbal Apprenticeship Program and Distance Learning Healing Vacations / Hawaiian Adventure Programs Advanced Herbal Training for Acupuncturists Acupuncture, Bodywork, & Qigong (Chinese Yoga) Subscribe to our newsletter: http://www.medicineatyourfeet.com/.html Join our discussion group: herbalmedicine Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2000 Report Share Posted December 31, 2000 on 12/8/00 8:45 AM, heiko at heiko wrote: > Cara > Michael Max ,a US practitioner has writen a good article for an Australian > journal on the use of dang gui in cough syndromes. Its useful for cough due > to cool dryness (DG is moist and warm) and chronic coughs can lead to qi and > blood stagnation for which dang gui is also usefull. He has provided his > email address michaelmax perhaps he can post his article on > the CHA list. > I had heard about doctors in Hangzhou using large amounts of Dang gui (30 g) > for chronic coughs. According to Zhang Xi-chun, dang gui moistens lung metal. In the Shen Nong Ben Cao, it says that dang gui " is sweet and warm, treating mainly cough and counterflow qi ascent. " Many Chinese journal articles have case studies on using dang gui for coughing. I use it to augment such formulas as qing fei tang, wen dan tang and qing qi hua tan tang. . . .it works very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2000 Report Share Posted December 31, 2000 thanks for the tip- I'll follow up on this. Cara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2000 Report Share Posted December 31, 2000 which journals? Cara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2001 Report Share Posted January 1, 2001 and chronic coughs can lead to qi andblood stagnation for which dang gui is also usefull >>>There are entire schools that use vitalize blood for coughs as well as other disorders Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2001 Report Share Posted January 2, 2001 thank you heiko, I like Stephen clavey's work. Cara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.