defining natures and channels entered

[Guest guest]

Thanks, David, for your words on Energetics of Western Herbs. I'm a little

more curious now, and I'd consider getting it just to explore his ideas

(whether MSU or not).

However...

 

I wrote:

> And though this sort of translation may

> be somewhat applicable when it comes to actions, it hardly begins to guide

> us with regard to determination of nature, flavor, and channels entered

(I'm

> convinced that, in the Chinese pharmacopeia, many of these factors were

> determined by truly visionary ancients).

 

David wrote:

I have to disagree with this. The energetics of our pharmecopia didn't fall

out of the sky, it was created by practitioners JUST LIKE US. It's our JOB

to do such things. It's just not all that mystifying to determine if an herb

is warm or cold. It's a combination of observation

and a solid conceptual framework that makes it all accesible.

 

I write:

I'm not saying we can't or shouldn't begin to try to determine these

qualities of the herbs or that we lack the capacity. It's just that there's

obviously much more than meets the eye (or the tongue... or the nose...

etc.).

For instance,

Ren Shen is the only Qi tonic which specifically tonifies source (yuan) Qi.

Also, it's red (the red kind, that is), it calms the shen and treats

symptoms of heart Qi and blood xu. Yet it only enters the spleen and lungs.

Would we as a group have NOT come to the conclusion that ren shen enters the

heart and kidneys as well?

Pu Gong Ying has pronounced diuretic action, yet it doesn't enter any organs

most closely associated with water passage (K, BL, Lu, SJ, SI, Sp...).

Would we have been able to determine that it enters only the stomach and

liver channels? (Incidentally, what do people think? Is this action

accomplished through the liver channel's dip into the genital region or the

proximity of the lower abdominal stomach points to the bladder?)

Ge Gen guides to the bladder channel (Sionneau), yet only enters the spleen

and stomach channels (Bensky/Gamble). Would we be able to make such a

distinction about a new herb, or at least come to a concensus as a group?

Bai Zhu is classified as bitter and sweet. What about that tangy taste?

Huang Qi and Dang Shen are both classified as only sweet. But both, to me,

have a hint of bitterness.

If we followed our senses and theories to rediscover the Chinese

pharmacopeia, I propose that we would totally rewrite the book (or, more

likely, many opposing books). What has allowed us to agree on flavors and

channels that we may not have tasted or witnessed firsthand is our trust in

centuries (or millennia) of history. No such history (of channels entered,

etc.) exists for most Western herbs, and who's to say our guesses would be

correct? (Does it matter?) We might taste red clover and say it's sweet

and slightly bitter. But it's a deobstruent, and in Chinese medicine all

flowers except xuan fu hua disperse (according to my teacher Guohui Liu, who

graduated from Chengdu, a university heavily steeped in the classics), so

would the Chinese have ascribed some acridness to it as well? (By the way,

xuan fu hua is acrid and can free stagnant liver Qi, it quickens blood and

frees connecting vessels - yet it doesn't " disperse " ?)

If we, as clinicians and scholars of this medicine, couldn't necessarily

come up with the same definitions of our materia medica that the ancients

did, why should we trust Holmes to do so with the Western pharmacopeia?

This isn't an attack, just a question. In fact, I'd love to hear some

convincing arguments, because his is one of the only texts of its kind & I

just don't know whether to spend my money on it or not. (Same with Jade

Remedies - though it's less pioneering, I know he makes up a lot of new

terminology, and I 'd welcome more people's opinions.)

 

==============================

Peter L. Borten, L.Ac.

4004 SW Kelly Avenue, Ste 201

Portland, Oregon 97201

503.522.2613

http://www.whiteflowerhealing.com/

==============================

[Guest guest]

.. No such history (of channels entered,etc.) exists for most Western herbs, and who's to say our guesses would becorrect?

>>>>I believe it did not in China for a long time as well.

Alon

 

-

Peter Borten

Friday, December 29, 2000 2:12 PM

Re: defining natures and channels entered

Thanks, David, for your words on Energetics of Western Herbs. I'm a littlemore curious now, and I'd consider getting it just to explore his ideas(whether MSU or not).However...I wrote:> And though this sort of translation may> be somewhat applicable when it comes to actions, it hardly begins to guide> us with regard to determination of nature, flavor, and channels entered(I'm> convinced that, in the Chinese pharmacopeia, many of these factors were> determined by truly visionary ancients).David wrote:I have to disagree with this. The energetics of our pharmecopia didn't fallout of the sky, it was created by practitioners JUST LIKE US. It's our JOBto do such things. It's just not all that mystifying to determine if an herbis warm or cold. It's a combination of observationand a solid conceptual framework that makes it all accesible.I write:I'm not saying we can't or shouldn't begin to try to determine thesequalities of the herbs or that we lack the capacity. It's just that there'sobviously much more than meets the eye (or the tongue... or the nose...etc.).For instance,Ren Shen is the only Qi tonic which specifically tonifies source (yuan) Qi.Also, it's red (the red kind, that is), it calms the shen and treatssymptoms of heart Qi and blood xu. Yet it only enters the spleen and lungs.Would we as a group have NOT come to the conclusion that ren shen enters theheart and kidneys as well?Pu Gong Ying has pronounced diuretic action, yet it doesn't enter any organsmost closely associated with water passage (K, BL, Lu, SJ, SI, Sp...).Would we have been able to determine that it enters only the stomach andliver channels? (Incidentally, what do people think? Is this actionaccomplished through the liver channel's dip into the genital region or theproximity of the lower abdominal stomach points to the bladder?)Ge Gen guides to the bladder channel (Sionneau), yet only enters the spleenand stomach channels (Bensky/Gamble). Would we be able to make such adistinction about a new herb, or at least come to a concensus as a group?Bai Zhu is classified as bitter and sweet. What about that tangy taste?Huang Qi and Dang Shen are both classified as only sweet. But both, to me,have a hint of bitterness.If we followed our senses and theories to rediscover the Chinesepharmacopeia, I propose that we would totally rewrite the book (or, morelikely, many opposing books). What has allowed us to agree on flavors andchannels that we may not have tasted or witnessed firsthand is our trust incenturies (or millennia) of history. No such history (of channels entered,etc.) exists for most Western herbs, and who's to say our guesses would becorrect? (Does it matter?) We might taste red clover and say it's sweetand slightly bitter. But it's a deobstruent, and in Chinese medicine allflowers except xuan fu hua disperse (according to my teacher Guohui Liu, whograduated from Chengdu, a university heavily steeped in the classics), sowould the Chinese have ascribed some acridness to it as well? (By the way,xuan fu hua is acrid and can free stagnant liver Qi, it quickens blood andfrees connecting vessels - yet it doesn't "disperse" ?)If we, as clinicians and scholars of this medicine, couldn't necessarilycome up with the same definitions of our materia medica that the ancientsdid, why should we trust Holmes to do so with the Western pharmacopeia?This isn't an attack, just a question. In fact, I'd love to hear someconvincing arguments, because his is one of the only texts of its kind & Ijust don't know whether to spend my money on it or not. (Same with JadeRemedies - though it's less pioneering, I know he makes up a lot of newterminology, and I 'd welcome more people's opinions.)==============================Peter L. Borten, L.Ac.4004 SW Kelly Avenue, Ste 201Portland, Oregon 97201503.522.2613http://www.whiteflowerhealing.com/==============================Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

, " Peter Borten " <innergate@e...>

wrote: What has allowed us to agree on flavors and

> channels that we may not have tasted or witnessed firsthand is our trust in

> centuries (or millennia) of history. No such history (of channels entered,

> etc.) exists for most Western herbs, and who's to say our guesses would be

> correct?

 

Peter

 

Your points are all well taken. first,there is not general agreement

about flavors and entering channels in TCM. It is very arbitrary

information and in my opinion, not very useful clinically. Xu Da chun

said that all herbs enter all channels, though their sphere of

influence may appear to be concentrated in one or another. What an

herb is indicated for defines to me its actual spheres of influence.

So it matters not that bensky says renshen only enters ht and sp. I'd

bet other sources include kd and/or ht. what is important is that this

herb definitely addresses both heart and kidney patterns. I think it

is somewhat a waste of time to consider channel and flavor

attributions. Many herbs' properties have no clinical relation to

their flavors.

 

Channel attributions began in about he 12th century and always have

been hotly debated and outright dismissd by many. When there is

congruence between flavor and action, teachers like to point that out,

but when there is no congruence, all we hear is deafening silence.

some have suggested that knowing the entering channel can reveal new

herb functions, but that ignores the fact that channels were attributed

to herbs AFTER the indications were well known, not vice versa. I

think it would be careless to assume " new " functions based on the

entering channels in the absence of any empirical data. While I

actually believe the initial properties of herbs were determined in

part through shamanic methods, the folks who were writing about

entering channels in the 1100's were decidedly not shamans. In fact,

from reading Unschuld,it appears that they were the quintessential

mental masturbators.

 

(By the way,

> xuan fu hua is acrid and can free stagnant liver Qi, it quickens blood and

> frees connecting vessels - yet it doesn't " disperse " ?)

 

I disagree with guohui liu. xuan fu hua clearly has dispersing

functions. You might want to clarify that with him.

 

[Guest guest]

> first,there is not general agreement

> about flavors and entering channels in TCM. It is very arbitrary

> information and in my opinion, not very useful clinically. Xu Da chun

> said that all herbs enter all channels, though their sphere of

> influence may appear to be concentrated in one or another. What an

> herb is indicated for defines to me its actual spheres of influence.

> So it matters not that bensky says renshen only enters ht and sp. I'd

> bet other sources include kd and/or ht. what is important is that this

> herb definitely addresses both heart and kidney patterns. I think it

> is somewhat a waste of time to consider channel and flavor

> attributions. Many herbs' properties have no clinical relation to

> their flavors.

 

> This may just be circular thinking on my part but Taste, Temperature and

Channel gives one a shorthand account of what the herb does. In that way you

have a better idea of what " this herb addresses " and why.

 

Although, I certainly never learned T,T & C well in school, now after knowing

the herbs, I have a better idea of why the " details " are important. So the

" sphere of influence " is the Ht and Sp. Ok, I'll go with that.

 

I think the books are close enough not to be " arbitrary " .