Guest guest Posted December 26, 2009 Report Share Posted December 26, 2009 K Hope this helps. Ted responded to my questions as follows: 'only proper education will allow acupuncturists to compete in the health care system. The military is now training medics, nurses and doctors without the interference of acupuncturists. The administration (Obama) has stated inclusion in the national healthcare system must be science and evidence based. The new California Medical Treatment Utilization Schedule MTUS is in effect as of 8/17/09. This Law which I am proud to have participated in its development and implementation, 1. allows greater access for patients, however requires specific education for Acupuncturists to have access to those patients. 2. Labor Code Sections 3201.5 and 3201.7 allow for Professional Guilds (NGAOM.org) to negotiate with employers regarding any aspect of benefit delivery if employees are eligible for group health benefits and nonoccupational disability benefits through the employer. ACAOM/CCAOM does not provide standards or curriculum for this medical-legal specialty, and instead promotes false blood-energy-meridians, and inadequate training that has failed to fully address public needs and safety.We have checked the evidence, 70% unemployment, 5 patients a week average, $120 thousand dollar student loans, this is called failure. Visit the NGAOM.org website and download our position papers for more detailed information. Visit my website _www.tedpriebe.com_ (http://www.tedpriebe.com/) for evidence based education for " Needling Therapy " Ted Priebe, OMD Doctor of Oriental Medicine Lic. No AC-2184 Appointed Member, Medical Evidence Evaluation Advisory Committee (MEEAC) California Department of Workers’ Compensation, Medical Unit _www.tedpriebe.com_ () 310-801-1462 California Work Comp Division Education Provider No. 1210 and California Acupuncture Board NO.702) (ACHB 795 NCCAOM) In a message dated 12/26/2009 9:26:05 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, johnkokko writes: Thanks for sending this, but can you summarize the information? It's difficult to decipher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 I agree that we need to explain the mechanisms of acupuncture better, but what is the special training that Ted's colleagues require? Really, medicine is all about specialization, not generalization... so why are nurses, medics and doctors with sub-par acupuncture training doing the jobs that licensed acupuncturists can do much better and safer? If acupuncturists aren't getting work in the private sector, why withhold them jobs in the public sector ? It really isn't that hard to talk about how acupuncture works from a bio-medical perspective. Does it take a nursing degree or MD license to do that? K On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 8:09 PM, <acudoc11 wrote: > > > K > > Hope this helps. > Ted responded to my questions as follows: > > 'only proper education will allow acupuncturists to compete in the health > care system. The military is now training medics, nurses and doctors > without the interference of acupuncturists. The administration (Obama) has > stated > inclusion in the national healthcare system must be science and evidence > based. > > > The new California Medical Treatment Utilization Schedule MTUS is in > effect as of 8/17/09. This Law which I am proud to have participated in its > > development and implementation, > > > 1. allows greater access for patients, however requires specific education > for Acupuncturists to have access to those patients. > > 2. Labor Code Sections 3201.5 and 3201.7 allow for Professional Guilds > (NGAOM.org) to negotiate with employers regarding any aspect of benefit > delivery if employees are eligible for group health benefits and > nonoccupational > disability benefits through the employer. > > ACAOM/CCAOM does not provide standards or curriculum for this > medical-legal specialty, and instead promotes false blood-energy-meridians, > and > inadequate training that has failed to fully address public needs and > safety.We > have checked the evidence, 70% unemployment, 5 patients a week average, > $120 > thousand dollar student loans, this is called failure. > > Visit the NGAOM.org website and download our position papers for more > detailed information. Visit my website _www.tedpriebe.com_ > (http://www.tedpriebe.com/) for evidence based education for > " Needling Therapy " > > Ted Priebe, OMD > Doctor of Oriental Medicine > Lic. No AC-2184 > Appointed Member, Medical Evidence Evaluation Advisory Committee (MEEAC) > California Department of Workers’ Compensation, Medical Unit > _www.tedpriebe.com_ () 310-801-1462 > California Work Comp Division Education Provider No. 1210 and California > Acupuncture Board NO.702) > (ACHB 795 NCCAOM) > > In a message dated 12/26/2009 9:26:05 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com> writes: > > Thanks for sending this, > but can you summarize the information? > It's difficult to decipher. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 You might ask why the AOM controlling agencies and their working connection to and with " the system " who apparently failed miserably in addressing such questions OR in the alternative....it has been purposefully designed to be the way it is. If you ask me.....it was purposefully designed as you see it!!! You can NOT be allowed to have your own cash register and be let in on the survival billing machine.. You either work as an underling for the medical system for say $10/hr or you starve on your own. Richard In a message dated 12/27/2009 2:08:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, johnkokko writes: I agree that we need to explain the mechanisms of acupuncture better, but what is the special training that Ted's colleagues require? Really, medicine is all about specialization, not generalization... so why are nurses, medics and doctors with sub-par acupuncture training doing the jobs that licensed acupuncturists can do much better and safer? If acupuncturists aren't getting work in the private sector, why withhold them jobs in the public sector ? It really isn't that hard to talk about how acupuncture works from a bio-medical perspective. Does it take a nursing degree or MD license to do that? K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 John That's the key word/issue... " dominant " . Not much is fair or ethical. Dominance is where it's at. That's just the way it is. Richard In a message dated 12/27/2009 11:55:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, subincor writes: Hi John and all: --John- I agree that we need to explain the mechanisms of acupuncture better, --- I disagree strongly. The double standards that we are held to are driven by deep, unscientific biases. A great many drugs are used without the barest idea of how they do what they do, and yet acupuncture, with an excellent and proven safety profile, is held to an impossible standard. I, like any other intelligent individual, am interested in the development of acupuncture. I understand that there is no need to prove it, however. --John- so why are nurses, medics and doctors with sub-par acupuncture training doing the jobs that licensed acupuncturists can do much better and safer? --- Because they are part of the dominant system. Not because they are the most qualified, not because they have the right, only because they have the guns. There are many important developments being made in the world of international law that we might take a few cues from: biopiracy is now a real legal entity, and one that seems to be gaining quite a bit of force. The reasoning behind the concept of biopiracy relies on cultural dominance - in other words, it is *not accepted* that the reason pharm corp X gets to take plants from a rainforest after finding out that the locals use them for Y condition is because pharm X is the possessor of true science and true knowledge. It is accepted that the only reason pharm X gets to do stuff is because it happens to be in possession of power. The statements in international law go something like this: Indigenous peoples have the right to the recognition and full ownership, control and protection of their cultural, artistic, spiritual, technological and scientific heritage [...]. (OAS, 1997) Thanks, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro _http://middlemedicihttp://middlehtt_ (http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com/) _http://www.middlemehttp://www_ (http://www.middlemedicine.org/) ________________________________ <_johnkokko_ (johnkokko) > _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) Sun, 27 December, 2009 2:08:13 Re: " Acupuncture needling " ...Re: TCM - " Acupuncture needl but what is the special training that Ted's colleagues require? Really, medicine is all about specialization, not generalization.Re so why are nurses, medics and doctors with sub-par acupuncture training doing the jobs that licensed acupuncturists can do much better and safer? If acupuncturists aren't getting work in the private sector, why withhold them jobs in the public sector ? It really isn't that hard to talk about how acupuncture works from a bio-medical perspective. Does it take a nursing degree or MD license to do that? K On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 8:09 PM, <_acudoc11_ (acudoc11) > wrote: > > > K > > Hope this helps. > Ted responded to my questions as follows: > > 'only proper education will allow acupuncturists to compete in the health > care system. The military is now training medics, nurses and doctors > without the interference of acupuncturists. The administration (Obama) has > stated > inclusion in the national healthcare system must be science and evidence > based. > > > The new California Medical Treatment Utilization Schedule MTUS is in > effect as of 8/17/09. This Law which I am proud to have participated in its > > development and implementation, > > > 1. allows greater access for patients, however requires specific education > for Acupuncturists to have access to those patients. > > 2. Labor Code Sections 3201.5 and 3201.7 allow for Professional Guilds > (NGAOM.org) to negotiate with employers regarding any aspect of benefit > delivery if employees are eligible for group health benefits and > nonoccupational > disability benefits through the employer. > > ACAOM/CCAOM does not provide standards or curriculum for this > medical-legal specialty, and instead promotes false blood-energy- medical-l > and > inadequate training that has failed to fully address public needs and > safety.We > have checked the evidence, 70% unemployment, 5 patients a week average, > $120 > thousand dollar student loans, this is called failure. > > Visit the NGAOM.org website and download our position papers for more > detailed information. Visit my website _www.tedpriebe. det > (_http://www.tedpriebhttp:/_ (http://www.tedpriebe.com/) ) for evidence based education for > " Needling Therapy " > > Ted Priebe, OMD > Doctor of Oriental Medicine > Lic. No AC-2184 > Appointed Member, Medical Evidence Evaluation Advisory Committee (MEEAC) > California Department of Workers’ Compensation, Medical Unit > _www.tedpriebe. _www.tedpriebe.<WBR > California Work Comp Division Education Provider No. 1210 and California > Acupuncture Board NO.702) > (ACHB 795 NCCAOM) > > In a message dated 12/26/2009 9:26:05 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > _johnkokko_ (johnkokko) <johnkokko%40gmail.joh> writes: > > Thanks for sending this, > but can you summarize the information? > It's difficult to decipher. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > -- " when you smile, you defy gravity " www.turtleclinic.www www.tcmreview.www [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --- Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times _http://www.chinesemhttp://www.chhtt_ (http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/) Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, _http://www.chinesemhttp://www.chhttp://wwhttp://w_ (http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia) To change your email delivery settings, click, _http://groups.http://grohttp://groups.<Whttp://grohttp://grhttp_ () and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. 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Guest guest Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Everyone is entitled to their opinion.......Right? I am forced to often recall what Dr Robert C Sohn said.... " just because a warm human body is walking around does NOT mean that they are entitled to an opinion. " TO have an opinion...it must be earned and have value....;.... certainly by the application of logic and common sense. Certain accrediting organizations..... long time controlled by English influences... well lets just propose that what they pass off as their educated opinion(s) appears NOT to be in the best interests of the advancement of the profession. Richard In a message dated 12/27/2009 12:39:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, johnkokko writes: Z'ev, That got on my nerves too... " promotes false blood-energy meridians " ..Th if they don't want to use the channel theory/ practice of the classics, don't call it acupuncture. Call it " dry-needling " of " trigger-points " and then hire whoever you want to. Why is an acupuncturist, Ted Priebe, championing this anti-acupuncture cause? K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Hi John and all: --John- I agree that we need to explain the mechanisms of acupuncture better, --- I disagree strongly. The double standards that we are held to are driven by deep, unscientific biases. A great many drugs are used without the barest idea of how they do what they do, and yet acupuncture, with an excellent and proven safety profile, is held to an impossible standard. I, like any other intelligent individual, am interested in the development of acupuncture. I understand that there is no need to prove it, however. --John- so why are nurses, medics and doctors with sub-par acupuncture training doing the jobs that licensed acupuncturists can do much better and safer? --- Because they are part of the dominant system. Not because they are the most qualified, not because they have the right, only because they have the guns. There are many important developments being made in the world of international law that we might take a few cues from: biopiracy is now a real legal entity, and one that seems to be gaining quite a bit of force. The reasoning behind the concept of biopiracy relies on cultural dominance - in other words, it is *not accepted* that the reason pharm corp X gets to take plants from a rainforest after finding out that the locals use them for Y condition is because pharm X is the possessor of true science and true knowledge. It is accepted that the only reason pharm X gets to do stuff is because it happens to be in possession of power. The statements in international law go something like this: Indigenous peoples have the right to the recognition and full ownership, control and protection of their cultural, artistic, spiritual, technological and scientific heritage [...]. (OAS, 1997) Thanks, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ <johnkokko Chinese Medicine Sun, 27 December, 2009 2:08:13 Re: " Acupuncture needling " ....officially known as " dry needling " as pr but what is the special training that Ted's colleagues require? Really, medicine is all about specialization, not generalization... so why are nurses, medics and doctors with sub-par acupuncture training doing the jobs that licensed acupuncturists can do much better and safer? If acupuncturists aren't getting work in the private sector, why withhold them jobs in the public sector ? It really isn't that hard to talk about how acupuncture works from a bio-medical perspective. Does it take a nursing degree or MD license to do that? K On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 8:09 PM, <acudoc11 wrote: > > > K > > Hope this helps. > Ted responded to my questions as follows: > > 'only proper education will allow acupuncturists to compete in the health > care system. The military is now training medics, nurses and doctors > without the interference of acupuncturists. The administration (Obama) has > stated > inclusion in the national healthcare system must be science and evidence > based. > > > The new California Medical Treatment Utilization Schedule MTUS is in > effect as of 8/17/09. This Law which I am proud to have participated in its > > development and implementation, > > > 1. allows greater access for patients, however requires specific education > for Acupuncturists to have access to those patients. > > 2. Labor Code Sections 3201.5 and 3201.7 allow for Professional Guilds > (NGAOM.org) to negotiate with employers regarding any aspect of benefit > delivery if employees are eligible for group health benefits and > nonoccupational > disability benefits through the employer. > > ACAOM/CCAOM does not provide standards or curriculum for this > medical-legal specialty, and instead promotes false blood-energy-meridians, > and > inadequate training that has failed to fully address public needs and > safety.We > have checked the evidence, 70% unemployment, 5 patients a week average, > $120 > thousand dollar student loans, this is called failure. > > Visit the NGAOM.org website and download our position papers for more > detailed information. Visit my website _www.tedpriebe.com_ > (http://www.tedpriebe.com/) for evidence based education for > " Needling Therapy " > > Ted Priebe, OMD > Doctor of Oriental Medicine > Lic. No AC-2184 > Appointed Member, Medical Evidence Evaluation Advisory Committee (MEEAC) > California Department of Workers’ Compensation, Medical Unit > _www.tedpriebe.com_ () 310-801-1462 > California Work Comp Division Education Provider No. 1210 and California > Acupuncture Board NO.702) > (ACHB 795 NCCAOM) > > In a message dated 12/26/2009 9:26:05 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com> writes: > > Thanks for sending this, > but can you summarize the information? > It's difficult to decipher. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 What gets me is this quote: " promotes false blood-energy meridians " . I hope we're not going to battle in our profession over the nature of channels and network vessels, or " qi is or is not energy " . Very sad indeed. On Dec 26, 2009, at 11:08 PM, wrote: > I agree that we need to explain the mechanisms of acupuncture better, > but what is the special training that Ted's colleagues require? > > Really, medicine is all about specialization, not generalization... > so why are nurses, medics and doctors with sub-par acupuncture training > doing the jobs that licensed acupuncturists can do much better and safer? > > If acupuncturists aren't getting work in the private sector, > why withhold them jobs in the public sector ? > > It really isn't that hard to talk about how acupuncture works from a > bio-medical perspective. > Does it take a nursing degree or MD license to do that? > > K > > > > > On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 8:09 PM, <acudoc11 wrote: > >> >> >> K >> >> Hope this helps. >> Ted responded to my questions as follows: >> >> 'only proper education will allow acupuncturists to compete in the health >> care system. The military is now training medics, nurses and doctors >> without the interference of acupuncturists. The administration (Obama) has >> stated >> inclusion in the national healthcare system must be science and evidence >> based. >> >> >> The new California Medical Treatment Utilization Schedule MTUS is in >> effect as of 8/17/09. This Law which I am proud to have participated in its >> >> development and implementation, >> >> >> 1. allows greater access for patients, however requires specific education >> for Acupuncturists to have access to those patients. >> >> 2. Labor Code Sections 3201.5 and 3201.7 allow for Professional Guilds >> (NGAOM.org) to negotiate with employers regarding any aspect of benefit >> delivery if employees are eligible for group health benefits and >> nonoccupational >> disability benefits through the employer. >> >> ACAOM/CCAOM does not provide standards or curriculum for this >> medical-legal specialty, and instead promotes false blood-energy-meridians, >> and >> inadequate training that has failed to fully address public needs and >> safety.We >> have checked the evidence, 70% unemployment, 5 patients a week average, >> $120 >> thousand dollar student loans, this is called failure. >> >> Visit the NGAOM.org website and download our position papers for more >> detailed information. Visit my website _www.tedpriebe.com_ >> (http://www.tedpriebe.com/) for evidence based education for >> " Needling Therapy " >> >> Ted Priebe, OMD >> Doctor of Oriental Medicine >> Lic. No AC-2184 >> Appointed Member, Medical Evidence Evaluation Advisory Committee (MEEAC) >> California Department of Workers‚ Compensation, Medical Unit >> _www.tedpriebe.com_ () 310-801-1462 >> California Work Comp Division Education Provider No. 1210 and California >> Acupuncture Board NO.702) >> (ACHB 795 NCCAOM) >> >> In a message dated 12/26/2009 9:26:05 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, >> johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com> writes: >> >> Thanks for sending this, >> but can you summarize the information? >> It's difficult to decipher. >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Z'ev, That got on my nerves too... " promotes false blood-energy meridians " .... if they don't want to use the channel theory/ practice of the classics, don't call it acupuncture. Call it " dry-needling " of " trigger-points " and then hire whoever you want to. Why is an acupuncturist, Ted Priebe, championing this anti-acupuncture cause? K On Sun, Dec 27, 2009 at 8:58 AM, <zrosenbe wrote: > What gets me is this quote: " promotes false blood-energy meridians " . I > hope we're not going to battle in our profession over the nature of channels > and network vessels, or " qi is or is not energy " . Very sad indeed. > > > > > -- "" www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I recall a lot of this claiming that we have misinformation or some mistranslation, never personally bought into it. Maybe some of that claim is accurate but there is no such claim from the Asian sources that back up the misinformation theory. I also found this a bit lacking of recent discovery, or not so recent, during the last 50 years coming from the Korea(s). Dr. Soh, following the works of Dr. Kim Bonghan, has seen several of his studies published in peer-reviewed journals, one being the Journal of the Anatomical Record (Part on New Anatomy), where we now have some interesting photos to go along with the theories. So, why not include this important info, if this is truly a scientific endeavor? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine CC: habeas_1 acudoc11 Sun, 27 Dec 2009 13:00:08 -0500 Re: " Acupuncture needling " ....officially known as " dry needling " as pr Everyone is entitled to their opinion.......Right? I am forced to often recall what Dr Robert C Sohn said.... " just because a warm human body is walking around does NOT mean that they are entitled to an opinion. " TO have an opinion...it must be earned and have value....;.... certainly by the application of logic and common sense. Certain accrediting organizations..... long time controlled by English influences... well lets just propose that what they pass off as their educated opinion(s) appears NOT to be in the best interests of the advancement of the profession. Richard In a message dated 12/27/2009 12:39:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, johnkokko writes: Z'ev, That got on my nerves too... " promotes false blood-energy meridians " ..Th if they don't want to use the channel theory/ practice of the classics, don't call it acupuncture. Call it " dry-needling " of " trigger-points " and then hire whoever you want to. Why is an acupuncturist, Ted Priebe, championing this anti-acupuncture cause? K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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