Guest guest Posted December 24, 2009 Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 1) Was the pneumothorax on the same side as K-27 or did you insert needles bilaterally? 2) What documentation of PROOF was submitted with the complaint identifying that the acupuncture needle was the cause of the pneumothroax? 3) the " four corners " of the complaint MUST be backed up with attached PROOF otherwise its a frivolous one. A good and decent lawyer would immediately MOVE for dismissal based upon issues such as these rather than answering the complaint directly. Usually that;s the way the defendant LOSES the case right from the start. The above is not legal advice.....just an experienced opinion. Richard In a message dated 12/24/2009 1:48:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, writes: I've lost the part in this discussion that says that the husband may be more eager to sue than the patient. I would just point out that this is nearly always the case with law suits of this type. It's usually a relative and MD's have sued also, so called on behalf of the patient. Familiarity with the patient is no guarantee. I assume their is no way to tell where the pneumothorax occurred at? Nightmare situation for any acupuncturist. Sorry to hear about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2009 Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 boys: please take this offline and duke it out btwn yourselves. this pointless argument does nothing to contribute to the discussion of the issue at hand, which is how to survive a malpractice suit. please discontinue dragging the level of the group discussion down with your petty squabbles. thank you, kath On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 9:04 PM, <acudoc11 wrote: > > > I definitely do not agree with your opinion on this subject but I don't > say that your opinion is suspect. > You have said your peace and I said mine from a heck of lot more first hand > > legal experience. > > Related to this subject of legalities......you appear to like using the AP > after your name but either don't know or forget who got you there. > > Richard In a message dated 12/23/2009 8:57:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > boblindeherbalist <boblindeherbalist%40> writes: > > Its interesting, this seems to be something you have said on a number of > issues. It is of course suspect when you claim to be one of the only or few > > who see something. I have generally seen and experienced good judgements in > > the courts....of course we read about the one in a thousand poor outcomes. > I find there are many hard choices a judge has to make. For instance I > was involve with the ACLU for a bit. I love the folks there but I have a > hard > time choosing to support the rights of the KKK to protest. They of course > have that right if they pull permits, constitition and all that. I respect > the ability of the ACLU to defend everyone, unbiased in the courts...just > found it hard to be the disconnected. I think most folks have a hard time > distancing themselves from the facts. Of course judges are people to > despite > how hard they try to judge based on the law. But hey thats just my opinion > as well. Luckly we are both welcome to them and are judge equally > on the correctness of our statements. > > Be well, > Bob > Robert Linde, AP, RH > Professional Herbalists Training Program > Acupuncture & Herbal Therapies > 901 Central Ave > St. Petersburg, FL 33705 > www.acuherbals.www > > 727-551-0857 > > --- On Wed, 12/23/09, _acudoc11 <_acudoc11%40aol.acu>_ ( > acudoc11 <acudoc11%40aol.com>) > <_acudoc11 <_acudoc11%40aol.acu>_ (acudoc11<acudoc11%40aol.com>) > > wrote: > > _acudoc11 <_acudoc11%40aol.acu>_ (acudoc11<acudoc11%40aol.com>) > <_acudoc11 <_acudoc11%40aol.acu>_ > (acudoc11 <acudoc11%40aol.com>) > > Re: lawsuit > _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ > (Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\ e%40>) > > Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 8:47 PM > > Bob......You are entitled of course to your opinion. > What I write is from a lot of direct experience and not from just being on > one side or the other of 1-2 cases. > The legal system is rigged, controlled and crooked and YES it's that > simple. > Of course there are many cases which are (as you say) nuisance cases which > don't rise to the level of crookedness which IMO is probably what you > might > be referring to. > The game is played in most of these nuance malpractice cases so as to grab > off a quickie settlement. > Many practitioners need the wakening CALL but fail to open their eyes. > But hey.....that' s everyone's choice to see or not to see. > That's why there are jokes about attorneys being bottom feeders....feeding > off people's potential misery. > > Richard > > In a message dated 12/23/2009 8:29:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > boblindeherbalist@ writes: > > Wow, I have been on both sides of the coin in lawsuits (never related to > medicine) and I'm quite sure the other party would have a different story > to > tell than you. It is never that cut and dry. Law is a complex system > because there are always a few folks who look for every exception and > nuiance. It > is usually that which screws up the system...of course there are always a > few rare lawyers to help those folks out and the courts are designed to > allow everyone, even you to bring suits and countersuits at little cost. > Most > laws (there are exceptions) are designed for good purpose, then they get > screwed up later on. There are few absolutes in law or in courts. And few > people are 100 percent right all the time. Those darn shades of grey. > > Be well, > Bob > Robert Linde, AP, RH > Professional Herbalists Training Program > Acupuncture & Herbal Therapies > 901 Central Ave > St. Petersburg, FL 33705 > www.acuherbals. www > 727-551-0857 > > --- On Wed, 12/23/09, _acudoc11 (AT) aol (DOT) acu_ (acudoc11@--- On Wed > <_acudoc11 (AT) aol (DOT) acu_ (acudoc11@_acudoc11@> wrote: > > _acudoc11 (AT) aol (DOT) acu_ (acudoc11@_acu<_acudoc11 (AT) aol (DOT) acu_ > (acudoc11@(ac> > > Re: lawsuit > _Traditional_ Traditional_ <WBRTraditional_ Tra_ > (Traditional(Traditional<WBR>_ Chinese_Medi > > Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 8:07 PM > > Laws are never written to be clear and exacting. > ALWAYS to enable an opinion on either side of the argument. > So as to create the battle which in the old days was jousting on the other > side of the bar. > Today.....no lawyer ever loses. > > ONLY clients LOSE.......usually their money. > More often the winner also loses as a good chunk of their settlement goes > to paying their legal fees. > That's one reason why the malpractice lawyers look for quick settlement. > The BEST way is to defend yourself BUT then you have to have to KNOW how > to > do that. > Then you have at least a chance in your favor. > Of course that also pisses-off the judges since you failed to PAY one of > their buddies (another attorney). > Its a losing situation. > > Of course...... .None of the above is legal advice. > Just my opinion from experience. > > The system tried suing me ONCE but not for malpractice. > Cost me $10,000 over a period of 7 years and the other side had to eat > over > $1 MILLION...all because I did ALL of my own legal work. And $7,500 of > that cost was because I allowed an attorney early-on to rip me off. After > I > fired that attorney for cause,,,,,,it only cost me $2,500 over the next 5 > years...mostly for court filing fees, postage and copy fees. > I doubt they will ever try that again. > > Richard > > In a message dated 12/22/2009 10:49:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > subincor writes: > > Another point, though, is that while pneumothorax is somewhat rare, it is > also difficult to ascribe to a needle - a lesion would be next to > impossible to find, and if the patient can be shown to have blebs > (essentially > ready-to-burst bubbles) already, then it would be a good defense to point > this > out. As a colleague of mine (MD) mentioned, " considering the overall > safety > profile of acupuncture, <WBR>complaining about the occassional p.tx. is > silly, considering that pneumothorax are commonly caused by intubation. It > is > just something that goes along with medical procedures, and it is not even > dangerous in the vast majority of people! " . Remember that many p.tx > require > observation > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2009 Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 I've lost the part in this discussion that says that the husband may be more eager to sue than the patient. I would just point out that this is nearly always the case with law suits of this type. It's usually a relative and MD's have sued also, so called on behalf of the patient. Familiarity with the patient is no guarantee. I assume their is no way to tell where the pneumothorax occurred at? Nightmare situation for any acupuncturist. Sorry to hear about it. Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hi John - what is the patient's attitude now? > Your clinical records and procedures are very important at this point. The written word counts for a lot in law. It is also important to be explicit in terms of your range - i.e. " do you ever go deeper than three millimetres [on relevant points]? " If you give leeway on issues like this, you will be nailed for it. > > The issue of SPONTANEOUS pneumothorax is important as well. > > Primary spont pneumo occurs mainly in tall thin men, and less so in tall thin women. It can still occur, in a smaler proportion, in people of other body types. No trauma or other injury is required for spont pneumo to occur. > > Secondary spont pneumo occurs in people who have underlying lung illness, such as lung infections, asthma and COPD. > > Does your patient fit any of these types? > > Thanks for sharing your story, John. > > Hugo > > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2009 Report Share Posted December 26, 2009 I'm sorry to hear about this, and just wanted to offer my support. It sounds to me like you didn't do anything wrong. There is absolutely no way to know whether acupuncture contributed to this or not, but either way you followed professional guidelines, so you are not to blame. All medicine comes with risk, ours less than western, but still there is the risk that a very small portion of the population might respond in a very unique way. I would agonize over something like this if I was in your shoes, so I really feel for you. The series " In Treatment " on HBO has a therapist who is being sued. You might find comfort in watching it just for that " someone in your boat " feeling. I think that this will probably come out ok for you, but it sure does suck in the meantime, huh? Chinese Medicine , acudoc11 wrote: > > 1) Was the pneumothorax on the same side as K-27 or did you insert needles > bilaterally? > > 2) What documentation of PROOF was submitted with the complaint identifying > that the acupuncture needle was the cause of the pneumothroax? > > 3) the " four corners " of the complaint MUST be backed up with attached > PROOF otherwise its a frivolous one. > > A good and decent lawyer would immediately MOVE for dismissal based upon > issues such as these rather than answering the complaint directly. > > Usually that;s the way the defendant LOSES the case right from the start. > > The above is not legal advice.....just an experienced opinion. > > Richard > > > In a message dated 12/24/2009 1:48:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > writes: > > I've lost the part in this discussion that says that the husband may be > more eager to sue than the patient. I would just point out that this is > nearly always the case with law suits of this type. It's usually a relative and > MD's have sued also, so called on behalf of the patient. Familiarity with > the patient is no guarantee. > I assume their is no way to tell where the pneumothorax occurred at? > Nightmare situation for any acupuncturist. Sorry to hear about it. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 I am sorry to hear of your law suit. According to my teachings you treating correctly with transverse insertion vs oblique being more conservative. Could she have recently had a fall? Personally, after a fall, it was discovered I suffered a small pneumothorax in my upper lobe area from the impact that resolved while in the hospital on oxygen. A C-scan will reveal the initial location as per my specialist. Good luck and stay positive Dianne Chinese Medicine , John Brennan <jsbacupuncture wrote: > > Hi Angela > Thank you for your thoughtful response. > What happened is this: A fairly long term patient left my office and became short of breath. Went to the ER that evening and it was found that the pt had a pneumothorax. When I spoke with her, she felt very confident that I did nothing out of the ordinary and that I was not at fault. I did do KI 27 on her as I had done many times before, -Transverse insertion, very shallow, I used a red seirin and did not tap it in past the tube-- so 3mm max. I am always very conservative in this. Though I am very sorry that she got a pneumothorax, I feel sure that she must have moved during treatment or that something else caused the pnuemaothorax. I did not deviate from standard treatment of care. > Any more input from the group would be helpful. > -John > > > > ________________________________ > " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa > Chinese Medicine > Fri, December 18, 2009 12:50:19 PM > Re: lawsuit > > > John, thank you for bringing this up. Would you be willing to say what the suit is for? When I studied psychology, we received a lot of info in graduate school about what are the most likely causes for law suits, what to do when it happens, etc. Acupuncturists usually do not have this information and we need it. > I understand from the field of psychology the following: The malpractice insurance knows what is the cheapest way to get this done, and this is what they will advise you to do. If you take another lawyer, you usually have to pay for it. Yes, this will follow you for a long time, regardless of the outcome. > A separate issue is what your licensing board does. Do they ignore it (that's best for you), do they send you a warning and fine (acceptable, but it follow you for ever), do they give you a temporary suspension?? ? > The most likely result is that it will become difficult for you to move to another state, because when you first apply for licensure there is intense scrutiny. It may also become difficult for you to become an insurance in-network provider. > On the positive side, there is a ND in my town who killed a person with a wrong injectable and tried to hush it up. He was disciplined by the board, fined, and it was all in the local paper, but he still has his practice and it's thriving. Stuff like that blows over. Good luck, we all have oversights, get social support for yourself, and be ready for a hard time. > > Regards, > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net > > www.InnerhealthSale m.com > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > - > John Brennan > > Friday, December 18, 2009 8:09 AM > lawsuit > > good morning everyone. > > I have a practice question. > > A > malpractice lawsuit has been filed against me. I believe the suit is > baseless and winnable in a court of law. The lawyer for my liability insurance company is set on settling out of court. He has made it sound like this is 'no > big deal'. However, I know that any settlement over $3,000 will be > reported to every national and state database/licensing agency. I am > concerned that this lawyer does not have my best interest in mind and > that settling would be the wrong thing to do. > > I > have contacted a local attorney to discuss what is best for me > legally. However, I would be interested in anyone's personal experience with malpractice lawsuits. What they did, how the outcome has affected - or nor affected their ability to practice. > > I know, not the most uplifting subject matter, but one that will become > more common as our profession matures, and it needs to be discussed! > > Thanks for your input, > John > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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