Guest guest Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 good morning everyone. I have a practice question. A malpractice lawsuit has been filed against me. I believe the suit is baseless and winnable in a court of law. The lawyer for my liability insurance company is set on settling out of court. He has made it sound like this is 'no big deal'. However, I know that any settlement over $3,000 will be reported to every national and state database/licensing agency. I am concerned that this lawyer does not have my best interest in mind and that settling would be the wrong thing to do. I have contacted a local attorney to discuss what is best for me legally. However, I would be interested in anyone's personal experience with malpractice lawsuits. What they did, how the outcome has affected - or nor affected their ability to practice. I know, not the most uplifting subject matter, but one that will become more common as our profession matures, and it needs to be discussed! Thanks for your input, John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 John, thank you for bringing this up. Would you be willing to say what the suit is for? When I studied psychology, we received a lot of info in graduate school about what are the most likely causes for law suits, what to do when it happens, etc. Acupuncturists usually do not have this information and we need it. I understand from the field of psychology the following: The malpractice insurance knows what is the cheapest way to get this done, and this is what they will advise you to do. If you take another lawyer, you usually have to pay for it. Yes, this will follow you for a long time, regardless of the outcome. A separate issue is what your licensing board does. Do they ignore it (that's best for you), do they send you a warning and fine (acceptable, but it follow you for ever), do they give you a temporary suspension??? The most likely result is that it will become difficult for you to move to another state, because when you first apply for licensure there is intense scrutiny. It may also become difficult for you to become an insurance in-network provider. On the positive side, there is a ND in my town who killed a person with a wrong injectable and tried to hush it up. He was disciplined by the board, fined, and it was all in the local paper, but he still has his practice and it's thriving. Stuff like that blows over. Good luck, we all have oversights, get social support for yourself, and be ready for a hard time. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - John Brennan Chinese Medicine Friday, December 18, 2009 8:09 AM lawsuit good morning everyone. I have a practice question. A malpractice lawsuit has been filed against me. I believe the suit is baseless and winnable in a court of law. The lawyer for my liability insurance company is set on settling out of court. He has made it sound like this is 'no big deal'. However, I know that any settlement over $3,000 will be reported to every national and state database/licensing agency. I am concerned that this lawyer does not have my best interest in mind and that settling would be the wrong thing to do. I have contacted a local attorney to discuss what is best for me legally. However, I would be interested in anyone's personal experience with malpractice lawsuits. What they did, how the outcome has affected - or nor affected their ability to practice. I know, not the most uplifting subject matter, but one that will become more common as our profession matures, and it needs to be discussed! Thanks for your input, John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 Hi Angela Thank you for your thoughtful response. What happened is this: A fairly long term patient left my office and became short of breath. Went to the ER that evening and it was found that the pt had a pneumothorax. When I spoke with her, she felt very confident that I did nothing out of the ordinary and that I was not at fault. I did do KI 27 on her as I had done many times before, -Transverse insertion, very shallow, I used a red seirin and did not tap it in past the tube-- so 3mm max. I am always very conservative in this. Though I am very sorry that she got a pneumothorax, I feel sure that she must have moved during treatment or that something else caused the pnuemaothorax. I did not deviate from standard treatment of care. Any more input from the group would be helpful. -John ________________________________ " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa Chinese Medicine Fri, December 18, 2009 12:50:19 PM Re: lawsuit John, thank you for bringing this up. Would you be willing to say what the suit is for? When I studied psychology, we received a lot of info in graduate school about what are the most likely causes for law suits, what to do when it happens, etc. Acupuncturists usually do not have this information and we need it. I understand from the field of psychology the following: The malpractice insurance knows what is the cheapest way to get this done, and this is what they will advise you to do. If you take another lawyer, you usually have to pay for it. Yes, this will follow you for a long time, regardless of the outcome. A separate issue is what your licensing board does. Do they ignore it (that's best for you), do they send you a warning and fine (acceptable, but it follow you for ever), do they give you a temporary suspension?? ? The most likely result is that it will become difficult for you to move to another state, because when you first apply for licensure there is intense scrutiny. It may also become difficult for you to become an insurance in-network provider. On the positive side, there is a ND in my town who killed a person with a wrong injectable and tried to hush it up. He was disciplined by the board, fined, and it was all in the local paper, but he still has his practice and it's thriving. Stuff like that blows over. Good luck, we all have oversights, get social support for yourself, and be ready for a hard time. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net www.InnerhealthSale m.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - John Brennan Friday, December 18, 2009 8:09 AM lawsuit good morning everyone. I have a practice question. A malpractice lawsuit has been filed against me. I believe the suit is baseless and winnable in a court of law. The lawyer for my liability insurance company is set on settling out of court. He has made it sound like this is 'no big deal'. However, I know that any settlement over $3,000 will be reported to every national and state database/licensing agency. I am concerned that this lawyer does not have my best interest in mind and that settling would be the wrong thing to do. I have contacted a local attorney to discuss what is best for me legally. However, I would be interested in anyone's personal experience with malpractice lawsuits. What they did, how the outcome has affected - or nor affected their ability to practice. I know, not the most uplifting subject matter, but one that will become more common as our profession matures, and it needs to be discussed! Thanks for your input, John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 Hi John - what is the patient's attitude now? Your clinical records and procedures are very important at this point. The written word counts for a lot in law. It is also important to be explicit in terms of your range - i.e. " do you ever go deeper than three millimetres [on relevant points]? " If you give leeway on issues like this, you will be nailed for it. The issue of SPONTANEOUS pneumothorax is important as well. Primary spont pneumo occurs mainly in tall thin men, and less so in tall thin women. It can still occur, in a smaler proportion, in people of other body types. No trauma or other injury is required for spont pneumo to occur. Secondary spont pneumo occurs in people who have underlying lung illness, such as lung infections, asthma and COPD. Does your patient fit any of these types? Thanks for sharing your story, John. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 My honest option is that you would have a 50-50 chance in court. If I were you I would avoid the agony and stress, and take the lawyer's advice and settle out of court. Stay completely focused on getting legal wording into the settlement statement that says that no wrongdoing is acknowledged or proven. If you get that wording, the licensing board can't really act against you, and in all future inquiries, you can say, " " I did nothing wrong. " Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - John Brennan Chinese Medicine Tuesday, December 22, 2009 4:24 AM Re: lawsuit Hi Angela Thank you for your thoughtful response. What happened is this: A fairly long term patient left my office and became short of breath. Went to the ER that evening and it was found that the pt had a pneumothorax. When I spoke with her, she felt very confident that I did nothing out of the ordinary and that I was not at fault. I did do KI 27 on her as I had done many times before, -Transverse insertion, very shallow, I used a red seirin and did not tap it in past the tube-- so 3mm max. I am always very conservative in this. Though I am very sorry that she got a pneumothorax, I feel sure that she must have moved during treatment or that something else caused the pnuemaothorax. I did not deviate from standard treatment of care. Any more input from the group would be helpful. -John ________________________________ " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa Chinese Medicine Fri, December 18, 2009 12:50:19 PM Re: lawsuit John, thank you for bringing this up. Would you be willing to say what the suit is for? When I studied psychology, we received a lot of info in graduate school about what are the most likely causes for law suits, what to do when it happens, etc. Acupuncturists usually do not have this information and we need it. I understand from the field of psychology the following: The malpractice insurance knows what is the cheapest way to get this done, and this is what they will advise you to do. If you take another lawyer, you usually have to pay for it. Yes, this will follow you for a long time, regardless of the outcome. A separate issue is what your licensing board does. Do they ignore it (that's best for you), do they send you a warning and fine (acceptable, but it follow you for ever), do they give you a temporary suspension?? ? The most likely result is that it will become difficult for you to move to another state, because when you first apply for licensure there is intense scrutiny. It may also become difficult for you to become an insurance in-network provider. On the positive side, there is a ND in my town who killed a person with a wrong injectable and tried to hush it up. He was disciplined by the board, fined, and it was all in the local paper, but he still has his practice and it's thriving. Stuff like that blows over. Good luck, we all have oversights, get social support for yourself, and be ready for a hard time. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net www.InnerhealthSale m.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - John Brennan Friday, December 18, 2009 8:09 AM lawsuit good morning everyone. I have a practice question. A malpractice lawsuit has been filed against me. I believe the suit is baseless and winnable in a court of law. The lawyer for my liability insurance company is set on settling out of court. He has made it sound like this is 'no big deal'. However, I know that any settlement over $3,000 will be reported to every national and state database/licensing agency. I am concerned that this lawyer does not have my best interest in mind and that settling would be the wrong thing to do. I have contacted a local attorney to discuss what is best for me legally. However, I would be interested in anyone's personal experience with malpractice lawsuits. What they did, how the outcome has affected - or nor affected their ability to practice. I know, not the most uplifting subject matter, but one that will become more common as our profession matures, and it needs to be discussed! Thanks for your input, John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 Hi Angela. I'm pretty sure that, in response to this statement: " My honest option is that you would have a 50-50 chance in court. " Spock would ask where exactly you got those statistics. Your advice sounds good otherwise, but I wonder about settlements. What is the likelihood that the patient is seeking financial redress only -what if they are seeking disciplinary action or revocation of licensure? This is why I asked John what the patient's attitude was. I don't know how likely that the " middle-ground " between the two parties is going to involve complete exoneration for John...? From my understanding, the riskiest part about court involves two main points, one being John's presentation of the topic and whether he can captain a tight ship(not giving the opposing lawyer openings to make him look bad, suspicious or incompetent), and, perhaps most importantly, if he gets a judge who is, a priori, biased against him (this is a huge issue in the legal system, apparently - known " convicters " ). ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa Chinese Medicine Tue, 22 December, 2009 16:24:36 Re: lawsuit If I were you I would avoid the agony and stress, and take the lawyer's advice and settle out of court. Stay completely focused on getting legal wording into the settlement statement that says that no wrongdoing is acknowledged or proven. If you get that wording, the licensing board can't really act against you, and in all future inquiries, you can say, " " I did nothing wrong. " Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net www.InnerhealthSale m.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - John Brennan Tuesday, December 22, 2009 4:24 AM Re: lawsuit Hi Angela Thank you for your thoughtful response. What happened is this: A fairly long term patient left my office and became short of breath. Went to the ER that evening and it was found that the pt had a pneumothorax. When I spoke with her, she felt very confident that I did nothing out of the ordinary and that I was not at fault. I did do KI 27 on her as I had done many times before, -Transverse insertion, very shallow, I used a red seirin and did not tap it in past the tube-- so 3mm max. I am always very conservative in this. Though I am very sorry that she got a pneumothorax, I feel sure that she must have moved during treatment or that something else caused the pnuemaothorax. I did not deviate from standard treatment of care. Any more input from the group would be helpful. -John ____________ _________ _________ __ " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net> Fri, December 18, 2009 12:50:19 PM Re: lawsuit John, thank you for bringing this up. Would you be willing to say what the suit is for? When I studied psychology, we received a lot of info in graduate school about what are the most likely causes for law suits, what to do when it happens, etc. Acupuncturists usually do not have this information and we need it. I understand from the field of psychology the following: The malpractice insurance knows what is the cheapest way to get this done, and this is what they will advise you to do. If you take another lawyer, you usually have to pay for it. Yes, this will follow you for a long time, regardless of the outcome. A separate issue is what your licensing board does. Do they ignore it (that's best for you), do they send you a warning and fine (acceptable, but it follow you for ever), do they give you a temporary suspension?? ? The most likely result is that it will become difficult for you to move to another state, because when you first apply for licensure there is intense scrutiny. It may also become difficult for you to become an insurance in-network provider. On the positive side, there is a ND in my town who killed a person with a wrong injectable and tried to hush it up. He was disciplined by the board, fined, and it was all in the local paper, but he still has his practice and it's thriving. Stuff like that blows over. Good luck, we all have oversights, get social support for yourself, and be ready for a hard time. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net www.InnerhealthSale m.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - John Brennan Friday, December 18, 2009 8:09 AM lawsuit good morning everyone. I have a practice question. A malpractice lawsuit has been filed against me. I believe the suit is baseless and winnable in a court of law. The lawyer for my liability insurance company is set on settling out of court. He has made it sound like this is 'no big deal'. However, I know that any settlement over $3,000 will be reported to every national and state database/licensing agency. I am concerned that this lawyer does not have my best interest in mind and that settling would be the wrong thing to do. I have contacted a local attorney to discuss what is best for me legally. However, I would be interested in anyone's personal experience with malpractice lawsuits. What they did, how the outcome has affected - or nor affected their ability to practice. I know, not the most uplifting subject matter, but one that will become more common as our profession matures, and it needs to be discussed! Thanks for your input, John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 My thinking is this: There has to be evidence of wrong doing or neglect. And this is a case where there is some evidence, such as spontaneous pneumothorax is rare, and needle insertion in that acu point can cause pneumothorax if not done carefully. If the client moved, it can boil down to the question if John instructed the client to lay still. I think it would be in John's interest that the malpractice lawyer offers a very speedy settlement in exchange for no other action against John. I agree with Hugo, it would be of paramount importance to know if the client would be ok with just a financial settlement. Generally you should not have any interaction with a client after a suit has been filed; his lawyer needs to find out what the client wants and where they are at. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - Hugo Ramiro Chinese Medicine Tuesday, December 22, 2009 2:13 PM Re: lawsuit Hi Angela. I'm pretty sure that, in response to this statement: " My honest option is that you would have a 50-50 chance in court. " Spock would ask where exactly you got those statistics. Your advice sounds good otherwise, but I wonder about settlements. What is the likelihood that the patient is seeking financial redress only -what if they are seeking disciplinary action or revocation of licensure? This is why I asked John what the patient's attitude was. I don't know how likely that the " middle-ground " between the two parties is going to involve complete exoneration for John...? From my understanding, the riskiest part about court involves two main points, one being John's presentation of the topic and whether he can captain a tight ship(not giving the opposing lawyer openings to make him look bad, suspicious or incompetent), and, perhaps most importantly, if he gets a judge who is, a priori, biased against him (this is a huge issue in the legal system, apparently - known " convicters " ). ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa Chinese Medicine Tue, 22 December, 2009 16:24:36 Re: lawsuit If I were you I would avoid the agony and stress, and take the lawyer's advice and settle out of court. Stay completely focused on getting legal wording into the settlement statement that says that no wrongdoing is acknowledged or proven. If you get that wording, the licensing board can't really act against you, and in all future inquiries, you can say, " " I did nothing wrong. " Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net www.InnerhealthSale m.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - John Brennan Tuesday, December 22, 2009 4:24 AM Re: lawsuit Hi Angela Thank you for your thoughtful response. What happened is this: A fairly long term patient left my office and became short of breath. Went to the ER that evening and it was found that the pt had a pneumothorax. When I spoke with her, she felt very confident that I did nothing out of the ordinary and that I was not at fault. I did do KI 27 on her as I had done many times before, -Transverse insertion, very shallow, I used a red seirin and did not tap it in past the tube-- so 3mm max. I am always very conservative in this. Though I am very sorry that she got a pneumothorax, I feel sure that she must have moved during treatment or that something else caused the pnuemaothorax. I did not deviate from standard treatment of care. Any more input from the group would be helpful. -John ____________ _________ _________ __ " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net> Fri, December 18, 2009 12:50:19 PM Re: lawsuit John, thank you for bringing this up. Would you be willing to say what the suit is for? When I studied psychology, we received a lot of info in graduate school about what are the most likely causes for law suits, what to do when it happens, etc. Acupuncturists usually do not have this information and we need it. I understand from the field of psychology the following: The malpractice insurance knows what is the cheapest way to get this done, and this is what they will advise you to do. If you take another lawyer, you usually have to pay for it. Yes, this will follow you for a long time, regardless of the outcome. A separate issue is what your licensing board does. Do they ignore it (that's best for you), do they send you a warning and fine (acceptable, but it follow you for ever), do they give you a temporary suspension?? ? The most likely result is that it will become difficult for you to move to another state, because when you first apply for licensure there is intense scrutiny. It may also become difficult for you to become an insurance in-network provider. On the positive side, there is a ND in my town who killed a person with a wrong injectable and tried to hush it up. He was disciplined by the board, fined, and it was all in the local paper, but he still has his practice and it's thriving. Stuff like that blows over. Good luck, we all have oversights, get social support for yourself, and be ready for a hard time. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net www.InnerhealthSale m.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - John Brennan Friday, December 18, 2009 8:09 AM lawsuit good morning everyone. I have a practice question. A malpractice lawsuit has been filed against me. I believe the suit is baseless and winnable in a court of law. The lawyer for my liability insurance company is set on settling out of court. He has made it sound like this is 'no big deal'. However, I know that any settlement over $3,000 will be reported to every national and state database/licensing agency. I am concerned that this lawyer does not have my best interest in mind and that settling would be the wrong thing to do. I have contacted a local attorney to discuss what is best for me legally. However, I would be interested in anyone's personal experience with malpractice lawsuits. What they did, how the outcome has affected - or nor affected their ability to practice. I know, not the most uplifting subject matter, but one that will become more common as our profession matures, and it needs to be discussed! Thanks for your input, John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 These are good points Angela, and you are right, it could easily boil down to whether the patient " received proper instruction " - more of the wordplay that occurs between lawyers and on the stand. Another point, though, is that while pneumothorax is somewhat rare, it is also difficult to ascribe to a needle - a lesion would be next to impossible to find, and if the patient can be shown to have blebs (essentially ready-to-burst bubbles) already, then it would be a good defense to point this out. As a colleague of mine (MD) mentioned, " considering the overall safety profile of acupuncture, complaining about the occassional p.tx. is silly, considering that pneumothorax are commonly caused by intubation. It is just something that goes along with medical procedures, and it is not even dangerous in the vast majority of people! " . Remember that many p.tx require observation only. Unfortunately, the points in the above paragraph are unlikely to come into play in a minor case such as this, but it is important to note that several on this list, Donald most recently, have mentioned how we don't have to money to lobby as a profession. To lobby for better malpractice insurance, for example, that would force evidence like this to be presented effectively at a trial. Thanks, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 Don't know about California but in Florida: 1) The cost to lobby before the legislature was $25 for registration and 2) the cost to lobby before the Executive branch $50 for registration and then 3) The most important piece of information is that an individual can lobby for themselves without it costing one cent. Richard A Freiberg OMD DAc AP LAc In a message dated 12/23/09 10:25:03 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: " we don't have to money to lobby as a profession " . I think we should be reminded that Miriam Lee paid for her own lobbyist long before we had an independent profession. CA LAc's have benefitted as a direct result of her efforts and have a much better healthcare profession as a result. Thank you Miriam. Now the cost effectiveness of lobbying is another issue. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine subincor Wed, 23 Dec 2009 03:49:18 +0000 Re: lawsuit These are good points Angela, and you are right, it could easily boil down to whether the patient " received proper instruction " - more of the wordplay that occurs between lawyers and on the stand. Another point, though, is that while pneumothorax is somewhat rare, it is also difficult to ascribe to a needle - a lesion would be next to impossible to find, and if the patient can be shown to have blebs (essentially ready-to-burst bubbles) already, then it would be a good defense to point this out. As a colleague of mine (MD) mentioned, " considering the overall safety profile of acupuncture, complaining about the occassional p.tx. is silly, considering that pneumothorax are commonly caused by intubation. It is just something that goes along with medical procedures, and it is not even dangerous in the vast majority of people! " . Remember that many p.tx require observation only. Unfortunately, the points in the above paragraph are unlikely to come into play in a minor case such as this, but it is important to note that several on this list, Donald most recently, have mentioned how we don't have to money to lobby as a profession. To lobby for better malpractice insurance, for example, that would force evidence like this to be presented effectively at a trial. Thanks, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _______________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --- Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 A great question kath. Does one really have malpractice insurance or something clothed to look like malpractice? Richard In a message dated 12/23/09 12:14:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, acukath writes: john and all: i have been following this discussion with interest. it's definately a learning curve. john, my thoughts are with you. i am so sorry that you are having to go through this. i can only imagine how stressful it must be for you. i have a question about the malpractice co. are you with AAC or another. wondering if those who have had suits brought against them, rightful or wrongfully, could discuss how you feel your malpractice insur co handling the matter on your behalf. are you satisfied with their work? do you think thinks were mishandled? if so, how? with which malpractice co did you have your experience? kath On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 7:35 AM, John Brennan <jsbacupuncturewrote: > > > Hi Hugo and Angela, > Thank you for your dialog. > > To answer your questions, Hugo, this patient is a tall, quite thin woman. > Dx with liver/Kidney Yin Deficiency. When she went to the ER because of her > shortness of breath they initially diagnosed her with emphysema due to some > deterioration of lung tissue. > > I do not know her attitude at this point as I have not had contact with her > in several months. My guess is, since she is suing me, that it is not very > positive. One thing that may or may not be relevant is that her lawyer > called me and left a message. In the message she referenced the patient's > husband's name 3 times and as an after thought referenced the patient's name > one time. I wonder if her husband is more invested in this than she she is. > If this is driven by him, he has no personal relationship with me which > could definitely not work in my favor. In the lawsuit there is no mention of > any other repercussions, just monetary demands. I do not know if this is > something that they can stipulate at a later date. They are asking for > $200,000 and of course my insurance company is not willing to settle for > that. It may be that I do not have a choice but to go to trial. I like your > point Angela, about settling but with the idea that there is no > wrong doing admitted or other repercussions. > > Of interest, on the same day that my patient was in the ER there was > another person there claiming to have experienced a pneumothorax from an > acupuncturist. > > My notes were thorough, though I did not discuss depth of insertion at any > point. I am very consistent with needling depths and always very mindful. I > tell new patients to remain still but on that day I did not tell her to lay > still as she had been coming to me on and off for various issues for almost > 2 years.. My mistake? > > Thank you, > -John > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro <subincor <subincor%40>> > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Tue, December 22, 2009 10:49:18 PM > Re: lawsuit > > These are good points Angela, and you are right, it could easily boil down > to whether the patient " received proper instruction " - more of the wordplay > that occurs between lawyers and on the stand. > Another point, though, is that while pneumothorax is somewhat rare, it is > also difficult to ascribe to a needle - a lesion would be next to impossible > to find, and if the patient can be shown to have blebs (essentially > ready-to-burst bubbles) already, then it would be a good defense to point > this out. As a colleague of mine (MD) mentioned, " considering the overall > safety profile of acupuncture, complaining about the occassional p.tx. is > silly, considering that pneumothorax are commonly caused by intubation. It > is just something that goes along with medical procedures, and it is not > even dangerous in the vast majority of people! " . Remember that many p.tx > require observation only. > Unfortunately, the points in the above paragraph are unlikely to come into > play in a minor case such as this, but it is important to note that several > on this list, Donald most recently, have mentioned how we don't have to > money to lobby as a profession. To lobby for better malpractice insurance, > for example, that would force evidence like this to be presented effectively > at a trial. > > Thanks, > Hugo > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > http://www.middleme dicine.org > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > -- Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA Board Certified in Oriental Medicine, NCCAOM Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Abstain from all that is evil. Perform all that is good. Purify your thoughts. This is the teaching of the Buddhas. Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: http://acukath.blogspot.com/ Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist Available at Asheville Center for : www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Dragon-Liniment-Eco-Friendly-Wild-Crafted/dp/B0 01OC1AZ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1 and from the following supply companies: Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vend or= & product=5554 & pg= Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --- Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. 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Guest guest Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 Hi Hugo and Angela, Thank you for your dialog. To answer your questions, Hugo, this patient is a tall, quite thin woman. Dx with liver/Kidney Yin Deficiency. When she went to the ER because of her shortness of breath they initially diagnosed her with emphysema due to some deterioration of lung tissue. I do not know her attitude at this point as I have not had contact with her in several months. My guess is, since she is suing me, that it is not very positive. One thing that may or may not be relevant is that her lawyer called me and left a message. In the message she referenced the patient's husband's name 3 times and as an after thought referenced the patient's name one time. I wonder if her husband is more invested in this than she she is. If this is driven by him, he has no personal relationship with me which could definitely not work in my favor. In the lawsuit there is no mention of any other repercussions, just monetary demands. I do not know if this is something that they can stipulate at a later date. They are asking for $200,000 and of course my insurance company is not willing to settle for that. It may be that I do not have a choice but to go to trial. I like your point Angela, about settling but with the idea that there is no wrong doing admitted or other repercussions. Of interest, on the same day that my patient was in the ER there was another person there claiming to have experienced a pneumothorax from an acupuncturist. My notes were thorough, though I did not discuss depth of insertion at any point. I am very consistent with needling depths and always very mindful. I tell new patients to remain still but on that day I did not tell her to lay still as she had been coming to me on and off for various issues for almost 2 years.. My mistake? Thank you, -John ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro <subincor Chinese Medicine Tue, December 22, 2009 10:49:18 PM Re: lawsuit These are good points Angela, and you are right, it could easily boil down to whether the patient " received proper instruction " - more of the wordplay that occurs between lawyers and on the stand. Another point, though, is that while pneumothorax is somewhat rare, it is also difficult to ascribe to a needle - a lesion would be next to impossible to find, and if the patient can be shown to have blebs (essentially ready-to-burst bubbles) already, then it would be a good defense to point this out. As a colleague of mine (MD) mentioned, " considering the overall safety profile of acupuncture, complaining about the occassional p.tx. is silly, considering that pneumothorax are commonly caused by intubation. It is just something that goes along with medical procedures, and it is not even dangerous in the vast majority of people! " . Remember that many p.tx require observation only. Unfortunately, the points in the above paragraph are unlikely to come into play in a minor case such as this, but it is important to note that several on this list, Donald most recently, have mentioned how we don't have to money to lobby as a profession. To lobby for better malpractice insurance, for example, that would force evidence like this to be presented effectively at a trial. Thanks, Hugo ____________ _________ _________ __ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com http://www.middleme dicine.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 Real malpractice-liability insurance versus Risk Retention (which is what most LAc's have) are quite different animals. I think David M can speak to these issues better. As to lawyers and lobbying.....yes Hugo lawyers know very well how to TAKE their client's money. As to their knowing anything special....I seriously doubt it. One person may not be able to get a bill passed and then signed into law but there is knowledge in how to kill a bill. Richard In a message dated 12/23/09 1:16:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, subincor writes: Hi all: --Richard- Does one really have malpractice insurance or something clothed to look like malpractice? --- In my experience it's mostly a wolf cloaked in sheep's clothing. Richard is right to point out that a portion of lobbying costs a small amount of money and some time, and can even be free, but the lobbying I am referring to is the lobbying that every powerful group does, which involves having a team of dedicated lawyers pushing specific buttons in the way only lawyers know how. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 " we don't have to money to lobby as a profession " . I think we should be reminded that Miriam Lee paid for her own lobbyist long before we had an independent profession. CA LAc's have benefitted as a direct result of her efforts and have a much better healthcare profession as a result. Thank you Miriam. Now the cost effectiveness of lobbying is another issue. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine subincor Wed, 23 Dec 2009 03:49:18 +0000 Re: lawsuit These are good points Angela, and you are right, it could easily boil down to whether the patient " received proper instruction " - more of the wordplay that occurs between lawyers and on the stand. Another point, though, is that while pneumothorax is somewhat rare, it is also difficult to ascribe to a needle - a lesion would be next to impossible to find, and if the patient can be shown to have blebs (essentially ready-to-burst bubbles) already, then it would be a good defense to point this out. As a colleague of mine (MD) mentioned, " considering the overall safety profile of acupuncture, complaining about the occassional p.tx. is silly, considering that pneumothorax are commonly caused by intubation. It is just something that goes along with medical procedures, and it is not even dangerous in the vast majority of people! " . Remember that many p.tx require observation only. Unfortunately, the points in the above paragraph are unlikely to come into play in a minor case such as this, but it is important to note that several on this list, Donald most recently, have mentioned how we don't have to money to lobby as a profession. To lobby for better malpractice insurance, for example, that would force evidence like this to be presented effectively at a trial. Thanks, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 Thanks Mike: (From an article by one of her students here:) In April 1974, Miriam Lee was arrested for practicing medicine without a license. The police came at 6:45, after she had already treated 10 patients, one of which had traveled 4 hours to get to her. At the trial her patients filled the courtroom, insisting that they had the right to receive the only medicine which had helped them. Within a matter of days there was a compromise with Governor Reagan, and acupuncture was made “an experimental procedureâ€, which allowed Miriam Lee to work under the auspices of San Francisco University, until the signing of the legislation legalizing acupuncture in 1976. It can be argued that Miriam Lee, her incarceration, her patients’ protest and her integrity, paved the way to recognition for all of us. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 In case that link didn't work: http://www.chinesemedicinenotes.com/2009/09/13/miriam-lees-10-points-guest-post/ ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 john and all: i have been following this discussion with interest. it's definately a learning curve. john, my thoughts are with you. i am so sorry that you are having to go through this. i can only imagine how stressful it must be for you. i have a question about the malpractice co. are you with AAC or another. wondering if those who have had suits brought against them, rightful or wrongfully, could discuss how you feel your malpractice insur co handling the matter on your behalf. are you satisfied with their work? do you think thinks were mishandled? if so, how? with which malpractice co did you have your experience? kath On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 7:35 AM, John Brennan <jsbacupuncturewrote: > > > Hi Hugo and Angela, > Thank you for your dialog. > > To answer your questions, Hugo, this patient is a tall, quite thin woman. > Dx with liver/Kidney Yin Deficiency. When she went to the ER because of her > shortness of breath they initially diagnosed her with emphysema due to some > deterioration of lung tissue. > > I do not know her attitude at this point as I have not had contact with her > in several months. My guess is, since she is suing me, that it is not very > positive. One thing that may or may not be relevant is that her lawyer > called me and left a message. In the message she referenced the patient's > husband's name 3 times and as an after thought referenced the patient's name > one time. I wonder if her husband is more invested in this than she she is. > If this is driven by him, he has no personal relationship with me which > could definitely not work in my favor. In the lawsuit there is no mention of > any other repercussions, just monetary demands. I do not know if this is > something that they can stipulate at a later date. They are asking for > $200,000 and of course my insurance company is not willing to settle for > that. It may be that I do not have a choice but to go to trial. I like your > point Angela, about settling but with the idea that there is no > wrong doing admitted or other repercussions. > > Of interest, on the same day that my patient was in the ER there was > another person there claiming to have experienced a pneumothorax from an > acupuncturist. > > My notes were thorough, though I did not discuss depth of insertion at any > point. I am very consistent with needling depths and always very mindful. I > tell new patients to remain still but on that day I did not tell her to lay > still as she had been coming to me on and off for various issues for almost > 2 years.. My mistake? > > Thank you, > -John > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro <subincor <subincor%40>> > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Tue, December 22, 2009 10:49:18 PM > Re: lawsuit > > These are good points Angela, and you are right, it could easily boil down > to whether the patient " received proper instruction " - more of the wordplay > that occurs between lawyers and on the stand. > Another point, though, is that while pneumothorax is somewhat rare, it is > also difficult to ascribe to a needle - a lesion would be next to impossible > to find, and if the patient can be shown to have blebs (essentially > ready-to-burst bubbles) already, then it would be a good defense to point > this out. As a colleague of mine (MD) mentioned, " considering the overall > safety profile of acupuncture, complaining about the occassional p.tx. is > silly, considering that pneumothorax are commonly caused by intubation. It > is just something that goes along with medical procedures, and it is not > even dangerous in the vast majority of people! " . Remember that many p.tx > require observation only. > Unfortunately, the points in the above paragraph are unlikely to come into > play in a minor case such as this, but it is important to note that several > on this list, Donald most recently, have mentioned how we don't have to > money to lobby as a profession. To lobby for better malpractice insurance, > for example, that would force evidence like this to be presented effectively > at a trial. > > Thanks, > Hugo > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > http://www.middleme dicine.org > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 Hi all: --Richard- Does one really have malpractice insurance or something clothed to look like malpractice? --- In my experience it's mostly a wolf cloaked in sheep's clothing. Richard is right to point out that a portion of lobbying costs a small amount of money and some time, and can even be free, but the lobbying I am referring to is the lobbying that every powerful group does, which involves having a team of dedicated lawyers pushing specific buttons in the way only lawyers know how. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Richard In a message dated 12/23/09 12:14:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) com writes: john and all: i have been following this discussion with interest. it's definately a learning curve. john, my thoughts are with you. i am so sorry that you are having to go through this. i can only imagine how stressful it must be for you. i have a question about the malpractice co. are you with AAC or another. wondering if those who have had suits brought against them, rightful or wrongfully, could discuss how you feel your malpractice insur co handling the matter on your behalf. are you satisfied with their work? do you think thinks were mishandled? if so, how? with which malpractice co did you have your experience? kath On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 7:35 AM, John Brennan <jsbacupuncture@ >wrote: > > > Hi Hugo and Angela, > Thank you for your dialog. > > To answer your questions, Hugo, this patient is a tall, quite thin woman. > Dx with liver/Kidney Yin Deficiency. When she went to the ER because of her > shortness of breath they initially diagnosed her with emphysema due to some > deterioration of lung tissue. > > I do not know her attitude at this point as I have not had contact with her > in several months. My guess is, since she is suing me, that it is not very > positive. One thing that may or may not be relevant is that her lawyer > called me and left a message. In the message she referenced the patient's > husband's name 3 times and as an after thought referenced the patient's name > one time. I wonder if her husband is more invested in this than she she is. > If this is driven by him, he has no personal relationship with me which > could definitely not work in my favor. In the lawsuit there is no mention of > any other repercussions, just monetary demands. I do not know if this is > something that they can stipulate at a later date. They are asking for > $200,000 and of course my insurance company is not willing to settle for > that. It may be that I do not have a choice but to go to trial. I like your > point Angela, about settling but with the idea that there is no > wrong doing admitted or other repercussions. > > Of interest, on the same day that my patient was in the ER there was > another person there claiming to have experienced a pneumothorax from an > acupuncturist. > > My notes were thorough, though I did not discuss depth of insertion at any > point. I am very consistent with needling depths and always very mindful. I > tell new patients to remain still but on that day I did not tell her to lay > still as she had been coming to me on and off for various issues for almost > 2 years.. My mistake? > > Thank you, > -John > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Hugo Ramiro <subincor <subincor%40. com>> > > To: Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > Tue, December 22, 2009 10:49:18 PM > Re: lawsuit > > These are good points Angela, and you are right, it could easily boil down > to whether the patient " received proper instruction " - more of the wordplay > that occurs between lawyers and on the stand. > Another point, though, is that while pneumothorax is somewhat rare, it is > also difficult to ascribe to a needle - a lesion would be next to impossible > to find, and if the patient can be shown to have blebs (essentially > ready-to-burst bubbles) already, then it would be a good defense to point > this out. As a colleague of mine (MD) mentioned, " considering the overall > safety profile of acupuncture, complaining about the occassional p.tx. is > silly, considering that pneumothorax are commonly caused by intubation. It > is just something that goes along with medical procedures, and it is not > even dangerous in the vast majority of people! " . Remember that many p.tx > require observation only. > Unfortunately, the points in the above paragraph are unlikely to come into > play in a minor case such as this, but it is important to note that several > on this list, Donald most recently, have mentioned how we don't have to > money to lobby as a profession. To lobby for better malpractice insurance, > for example, that would force evidence like this to be presented effectively > at a trial. > > Thanks, > Hugo > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > http://www.middleme dicine.org > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > -- Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA Board Certified in Oriental Medicine, NCCAOM Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Abstain from all that is evil. Perform all that is good. Purify your thoughts. This is the teaching of the Buddhas. Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: http://acukath. blogspot. com/ Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist Available at Asheville Center for : www.FlyingDragonLin iment.com Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC Amazon.com http://www.amazon. com/Flying- Dragon-Liniment- Eco-Friendly- Wild-Crafted/ dp/B0 01OC1AZ2/ref= sr_1_1?ie= UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1 and from the following supply companies: Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat= 0 & page=1 Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC http://www.goldenne edleonline. com/index. php?page= categories & category= 14 & vend or= & product= 5554 & pg= Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------ --------- --------- ------ Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia To change your email delivery settings, click, http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 --Hugo- In my experience it's mostly a wolf cloaked in sheep's clothing. --- Woops, I meant a sheep in wolf's clothing. A sheep that eats *us*. A sheepwolf. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 Laws are never written to be clear and exacting. ALWAYS to enable an opinion on either side of the argument. So as to create the battle which in the old days was jousting on the other side of the bar. Today.....no lawyer ever loses. ONLY clients LOSE.......usually their money. More often the winner also loses as a good chunk of their settlement goes to paying their legal fees. That's one reason why the malpractice lawyers look for quick settlement. The BEST way is to defend yourself BUT then you have to have to KNOW how to do that. Then you have at least a chance in your favor. Of course that also pisses-off the judges since you failed to PAY one of their buddies (another attorney). Its a losing situation. Of course.......None of the above is legal advice. Just my opinion from experience. The system tried suing me ONCE but not for malpractice. Cost me $10,000 over a period of 7 years and the other side had to eat over $1 MILLION...all because I did ALL of my own legal work. And $7,500 of that cost was because I allowed an attorney early-on to rip me off. After I fired that attorney for cause,,,,,,it only cost me $2,500 over the next 5 years...mostly for court filing fees, postage and copy fees. I doubt they will ever try that again. Richard In a message dated 12/22/2009 10:49:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, subincor writes: Another point, though, is that while pneumothorax is somewhat rare, it is also difficult to ascribe to a needle - a lesion would be next to impossible to find, and if the patient can be shown to have blebs (essentially ready-to-burst bubbles) already, then it would be a good defense to point this out. As a colleague of mine (MD) mentioned, " considering the overall safety profile of acupuncture, <WBR>complaining about the occassional p.tx. is silly, considering that pneumothorax are commonly caused by intubation. It is just something that goes along with medical procedures, and it is not even dangerous in the vast majority of people! " . Remember that many p.tx require observation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 Bob......You are entitled of course to your opinion. What I write is from a lot of direct experience and not from just being on one side or the other of 1-2 cases. The legal system is rigged, controlled and crooked and YES it's that simple. Of course there are many cases which are (as you say) nuisance cases which don't rise to the level of crookedness which IMO is probably what you might be referring to. The game is played in most of these nuance malpractice cases so as to grab off a quickie settlement. Many practitioners need the wakening CALL but fail to open their eyes. But hey.....that's everyone's choice to see or not to see. That's why there are jokes about attorneys being bottom feeders....feeding off people's potential misery. Richard In a message dated 12/23/2009 8:29:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, boblindeherbalist writes: Wow, I have been on both sides of the coin in lawsuits (never related to medicine) and I'm quite sure the other party would have a different story to tell than you. It is never that cut and dry. Law is a complex system because there are always a few folks who look for every exception and nuiance. It is usually that which screws up the system...of course there are always a few rare lawyers to help those folks out and the courts are designed to allow everyone, even you to bring suits and countersuits at little cost. Most laws (there are exceptions) are designed for good purpose, then they get screwed up later on. There are few absolutes in law or in courts. And few people are 100 percent right all the time. Those darn shades of grey. Be well, Bob Robert Linde, AP, RH Professional Herbalists Training Program Acupuncture & Herbal Therapies 901 Central Ave St. Petersburg, FL 33705 www.acuherbals.www 727-551-0857 --- On Wed, 12/23/09, _acudoc11_ (acudoc11) <_acudoc11_ (acudoc11) > wrote: _acudoc11_ (acudoc11) <_acudoc11_ (acudoc11) > Re: lawsuit _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 8:07 PM Laws are never written to be clear and exacting. ALWAYS to enable an opinion on either side of the argument. So as to create the battle which in the old days was jousting on the other side of the bar. Today.....no lawyer ever loses. ONLY clients LOSE.......usually their money. More often the winner also loses as a good chunk of their settlement goes to paying their legal fees. That's one reason why the malpractice lawyers look for quick settlement. The BEST way is to defend yourself BUT then you have to have to KNOW how to do that. Then you have at least a chance in your favor. Of course that also pisses-off the judges since you failed to PAY one of their buddies (another attorney). Its a losing situation. Of course...... .None of the above is legal advice. Just my opinion from experience. The system tried suing me ONCE but not for malpractice. Cost me $10,000 over a period of 7 years and the other side had to eat over $1 MILLION...all because I did ALL of my own legal work. And $7,500 of that cost was because I allowed an attorney early-on to rip me off. After I fired that attorney for cause,,,,,,it only cost me $2,500 over the next 5 years...mostly for court filing fees, postage and copy fees. I doubt they will ever try that again. Richard In a message dated 12/22/2009 10:49:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, subincor writes: Another point, though, is that while pneumothorax is somewhat rare, it is also difficult to ascribe to a needle - a lesion would be next to impossible to find, and if the patient can be shown to have blebs (essentially ready-to-burst bubbles) already, then it would be a good defense to point this out. As a colleague of mine (MD) mentioned, " considering the overall safety profile of acupuncture, <WBR>complaining about the occassional p.tx. is silly, considering that pneumothorax are commonly caused by intubation. It is just something that goes along with medical procedures, and it is not even dangerous in the vast majority of people! " . Remember that many p.tx require observation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 Bob You are in Florida and should be aware of the legal battles the profession has been in and I have been smack in the middle of it all ever since we got attacked by the MDs (FMA) in 2000. Richard In a message dated 12/23/2009 8:29:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, boblindeherbalist writes: Wow, I have been on both sides of the coin in lawsuits (never related to medicine) and I'm quite sure the other party would have a different story to tell than you. It is never that cut and dry. Law is a complex system because there are always a few folks who look for every exception and nuiance. It is usually that which screws up the system...of course there are always a few rare lawyers to help those folks out and the courts are designed to allow everyone, even you to bring suits and countersuits at little cost. Most laws (there are exceptions) are designed for good purpose, then they get screwed up later on. There are few absolutes in law or in courts. And few people are 100 percent right all the time. Those darn shades of grey. Be well, Bob Robert Linde, AP, RH Professional Herbalists Training Program Acupuncture & Herbal Therapies 901 Central Ave St. Petersburg, FL 33705 www.acuherbals.www 727-551-0857 --- On Wed, 12/23/09, _acudoc11_ (acudoc11) <_acudoc11_ (acudoc11) > wrote: _acudoc11_ (acudoc11) <_acudoc11_ (acudoc11) > Re: lawsuit _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 8:07 PM Laws are never written to be clear and exacting. ALWAYS to enable an opinion on either side of the argument. So as to create the battle which in the old days was jousting on the other side of the bar. Today.....no lawyer ever loses. ONLY clients LOSE.......usually their money. More often the winner also loses as a good chunk of their settlement goes to paying their legal fees. That's one reason why the malpractice lawyers look for quick settlement. The BEST way is to defend yourself BUT then you have to have to KNOW how to do that. Then you have at least a chance in your favor. Of course that also pisses-off the judges since you failed to PAY one of their buddies (another attorney). Its a losing situation. Of course...... .None of the above is legal advice. Just my opinion from experience. The system tried suing me ONCE but not for malpractice. Cost me $10,000 over a period of 7 years and the other side had to eat over $1 MILLION...all because I did ALL of my own legal work. And $7,500 of that cost was because I allowed an attorney early-on to rip me off. After I fired that attorney for cause,,,,,,it only cost me $2,500 over the next 5 years...mostly for court filing fees, postage and copy fees. I doubt they will ever try that again. Richard In a message dated 12/22/2009 10:49:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, subincor writes: Another point, though, is that while pneumothorax is somewhat rare, it is also difficult to ascribe to a needle - a lesion would be next to impossible to find, and if the patient can be shown to have blebs (essentially ready-to-burst bubbles) already, then it would be a good defense to point this out. As a colleague of mine (MD) mentioned, " considering the overall safety profile of acupuncture, <WBR>complaining about the occassional p.tx. is silly, considering that pneumothorax are commonly caused by intubation. It is just something that goes along with medical procedures, and it is not even dangerous in the vast majority of people! " . Remember that many p.tx require observation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 I definitely do not agree with your opinion on this subject but I don't say that your opinion is suspect. You have said your peace and I said mine from a heck of lot more first hand legal experience. Related to this subject of legalities......you appear to like using the AP after your name but either don't know or forget who got you there. Richard In a message dated 12/23/2009 8:57:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, boblindeherbalist writes: Its interesting, this seems to be something you have said on a number of issues. It is of course suspect when you claim to be one of the only or few who see something. I have generally seen and experienced good judgements in the courts....of course we read about the one in a thousand poor outcomes. I find there are many hard choices a judge has to make. For instance I was involve with the ACLU for a bit. I love the folks there but I have a hard time choosing to support the rights of the KKK to protest. They of course have that right if they pull permits, constitition and all that. I respect the ability of the ACLU to defend everyone, unbiased in the courts...just found it hard to be the disconnected. I think most folks have a hard time distancing themselves from the facts. Of course judges are people to despite how hard they try to judge based on the law. But hey thats just my opinion as well. Luckly we are both welcome to them and are judge equally on the correctness of our statements. Be well, Bob Robert Linde, AP, RH Professional Herbalists Training Program Acupuncture & Herbal Therapies 901 Central Ave St. Petersburg, FL 33705 www.acuherbals.www 727-551-0857 --- On Wed, 12/23/09, _acudoc11_ (acudoc11) <_acudoc11_ (acudoc11) > wrote: _acudoc11_ (acudoc11) <_acudoc11_ (acudoc11) > Re: lawsuit _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 8:47 PM Bob......You are entitled of course to your opinion. What I write is from a lot of direct experience and not from just being on one side or the other of 1-2 cases. The legal system is rigged, controlled and crooked and YES it's that simple. Of course there are many cases which are (as you say) nuisance cases which don't rise to the level of crookedness which IMO is probably what you might be referring to. The game is played in most of these nuance malpractice cases so as to grab off a quickie settlement. Many practitioners need the wakening CALL but fail to open their eyes. But hey.....that' s everyone's choice to see or not to see. That's why there are jokes about attorneys being bottom feeders....feeding off people's potential misery. Richard In a message dated 12/23/2009 8:29:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, boblindeherbalist@ writes: Wow, I have been on both sides of the coin in lawsuits (never related to medicine) and I'm quite sure the other party would have a different story to tell than you. It is never that cut and dry. Law is a complex system because there are always a few folks who look for every exception and nuiance. It is usually that which screws up the system...of course there are always a few rare lawyers to help those folks out and the courts are designed to allow everyone, even you to bring suits and countersuits at little cost. Most laws (there are exceptions) are designed for good purpose, then they get screwed up later on. There are few absolutes in law or in courts. And few people are 100 percent right all the time. Those darn shades of grey. Be well, Bob Robert Linde, AP, RH Professional Herbalists Training Program Acupuncture & Herbal Therapies 901 Central Ave St. Petersburg, FL 33705 www.acuherbals. www 727-551-0857 --- On Wed, 12/23/09, _acudoc11 (AT) aol (DOT) acu_ (acudoc11@--- On Wed <_acudoc11 (AT) aol (DOT) acu_ (acudoc11@_acudoc11@> wrote: _acudoc11 (AT) aol (DOT) acu_ (acudoc11@_acu<_acudoc11 (AT) aol (DOT) acu_ (acudoc11@(ac> Re: lawsuit _Traditional_ Traditional_ <WBRTraditional_ Tra_ (Traditional(Traditional<WBR>_ Chinese_Medi Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 8:07 PM Laws are never written to be clear and exacting. ALWAYS to enable an opinion on either side of the argument. So as to create the battle which in the old days was jousting on the other side of the bar. Today.....no lawyer ever loses. ONLY clients LOSE.......usually their money. More often the winner also loses as a good chunk of their settlement goes to paying their legal fees. That's one reason why the malpractice lawyers look for quick settlement. The BEST way is to defend yourself BUT then you have to have to KNOW how to do that. Then you have at least a chance in your favor. Of course that also pisses-off the judges since you failed to PAY one of their buddies (another attorney). Its a losing situation. Of course...... .None of the above is legal advice. Just my opinion from experience. The system tried suing me ONCE but not for malpractice. Cost me $10,000 over a period of 7 years and the other side had to eat over $1 MILLION...all because I did ALL of my own legal work. And $7,500 of that cost was because I allowed an attorney early-on to rip me off. After I fired that attorney for cause,,,,,,it only cost me $2,500 over the next 5 years...mostly for court filing fees, postage and copy fees. I doubt they will ever try that again. Richard In a message dated 12/22/2009 10:49:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, subincor writes: Another point, though, is that while pneumothorax is somewhat rare, it is also difficult to ascribe to a needle - a lesion would be next to impossible to find, and if the patient can be shown to have blebs (essentially ready-to-burst bubbles) already, then it would be a good defense to point this out. As a colleague of mine (MD) mentioned, " considering the overall safety profile of acupuncture, <WBR>complaining about the occassional p.tx. is silly, considering that pneumothorax are commonly caused by intubation. It is just something that goes along with medical procedures, and it is not even dangerous in the vast majority of people! " . Remember that many p.tx require observation [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2009 Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 Wow, I have been on both sides of the coin in lawsuits (never related to medicine) and I'm quite sure the other party would have a different story to tell than you. It is never that cut and dry. Law is a complex system because there are always a few folks who look for every exception and nuiance. It is usually that which screws up the system...of course there are always a few rare lawyers to help those folks out and the courts are designed to allow everyone, even you to bring suits and countersuits at little cost. Most laws (there are exceptions) are designed for good purpose, then they get screwed up later on. There are few absolutes in law or in courts. And few people are 100 percent right all the time. Those darn shades of grey. Be well, Bob Robert Linde, AP, RH Professional Herbalists Training Program Acupuncture & Herbal Therapies 901 Central Ave St. Petersburg, FL 33705 www.acuherbals.com 727-551-0857 --- On Wed, 12/23/09, acudoc11 <acudoc11 wrote: acudoc11 <acudoc11 Re: lawsuit Chinese Medicine Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 8:07 PM Â Laws are never written to be clear and exacting. ALWAYS to enable an opinion on either side of the argument. So as to create the battle which in the old days was jousting on the other side of the bar. Today.....no lawyer ever loses. ONLY clients LOSE.......usually their money. More often the winner also loses as a good chunk of their settlement goes to paying their legal fees. That's one reason why the malpractice lawyers look for quick settlement. The BEST way is to defend yourself BUT then you have to have to KNOW how to do that. Then you have at least a chance in your favor. Of course that also pisses-off the judges since you failed to PAY one of their buddies (another attorney). Its a losing situation. Of course...... .None of the above is legal advice. Just my opinion from experience. The system tried suing me ONCE but not for malpractice. Cost me $10,000 over a period of 7 years and the other side had to eat over $1 MILLION...all because I did ALL of my own legal work. And $7,500 of that cost was because I allowed an attorney early-on to rip me off. After I fired that attorney for cause,,,,,,it only cost me $2,500 over the next 5 years...mostly for court filing fees, postage and copy fees. I doubt they will ever try that again. Richard In a message dated 12/22/2009 10:49:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, subincor writes: Another point, though, is that while pneumothorax is somewhat rare, it is also difficult to ascribe to a needle - a lesion would be next to impossible to find, and if the patient can be shown to have blebs (essentially ready-to-burst bubbles) already, then it would be a good defense to point this out. As a colleague of mine (MD) mentioned, " considering the overall safety profile of acupuncture, <WBR>complaining about the occassional p.tx. is silly, considering that pneumothorax are commonly caused by intubation. It is just something that goes along with medical procedures, and it is not even dangerous in the vast majority of people! " . Remember that many p.tx require observation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2009 Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 Its interesting, this seems to be something you have said on a number of issues. It is of course suspect when you claim to be one of the only or few who see something. I have generally seen and experienced good judgements in the courts....of course we read about the one in a thousand poor outcomes. I find there are many hard choices a judge has to make. For instance I was involve with the ACLU for a bit. I love the folks there but I have a hard time choosing to support the rights of the KKK to protest. They of course have that right if they pull permits, constitition and all that. I respect the ability of the ACLU to defend everyone, unbiased in the courts...just found it hard to be the disconnected. I think most folks have a hard time distancing themselves from the facts. Of course judges are people to despite how hard they try to judge based on the law. But hey thats just my opinion as well. Luckly we are both welcome to them and are judge equally on the correctness of our statements. Be well, Bob Robert Linde, AP, RH Professional Herbalists Training Program Acupuncture & Herbal Therapies 901 Central Ave St. Petersburg, FL 33705 www.acuherbals.com 727-551-0857 --- On Wed, 12/23/09, acudoc11 <acudoc11 wrote: acudoc11 <acudoc11 Re: lawsuit Chinese Medicine Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 8:47 PM  Bob......You are entitled of course to your opinion. What I write is from a lot of direct experience and not from just being on one side or the other of 1-2 cases. The legal system is rigged, controlled and crooked and YES it's that simple. Of course there are many cases which are (as you say) nuisance cases which don't rise to the level of crookedness which IMO is probably what you might be referring to. The game is played in most of these nuance malpractice cases so as to grab off a quickie settlement. Many practitioners need the wakening CALL but fail to open their eyes. But hey.....that' s everyone's choice to see or not to see. That's why there are jokes about attorneys being bottom feeders....feeding off people's potential misery. Richard In a message dated 12/23/2009 8:29:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, boblindeherbalist@ writes: Wow, I have been on both sides of the coin in lawsuits (never related to medicine) and I'm quite sure the other party would have a different story to tell than you. It is never that cut and dry. Law is a complex system because there are always a few folks who look for every exception and nuiance. It is usually that which screws up the system...of course there are always a few rare lawyers to help those folks out and the courts are designed to allow everyone, even you to bring suits and countersuits at little cost. Most laws (there are exceptions) are designed for good purpose, then they get screwed up later on. There are few absolutes in law or in courts. And few people are 100 percent right all the time. Those darn shades of grey. Be well, Bob Robert Linde, AP, RH Professional Herbalists Training Program Acupuncture & Herbal Therapies 901 Central Ave St. Petersburg, FL 33705 www.acuherbals. www 727-551-0857 --- On Wed, 12/23/09, _acudoc11 (AT) aol (DOT) acu_ (acudoc11 (AT) aol (DOT) com) <_acudoc11 (AT) aol (DOT) acu_ (acudoc11 (AT) aol (DOT) com) > wrote: _acudoc11 (AT) aol (DOT) acu_ (acudoc11 (AT) aol (DOT) com) <_acudoc11 (AT) aol (DOT) acu_ (acudoc11 (AT) aol (DOT) com) > Re: lawsuit _Traditional_ Traditional_ <WBRTraditional_ Tra_ (Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine ) Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 8:07 PM Laws are never written to be clear and exacting. ALWAYS to enable an opinion on either side of the argument. So as to create the battle which in the old days was jousting on the other side of the bar. Today.....no lawyer ever loses. ONLY clients LOSE.......usually their money. More often the winner also loses as a good chunk of their settlement goes to paying their legal fees. That's one reason why the malpractice lawyers look for quick settlement. The BEST way is to defend yourself BUT then you have to have to KNOW how to do that. Then you have at least a chance in your favor. Of course that also pisses-off the judges since you failed to PAY one of their buddies (another attorney). Its a losing situation. Of course...... .None of the above is legal advice. Just my opinion from experience. The system tried suing me ONCE but not for malpractice. Cost me $10,000 over a period of 7 years and the other side had to eat over $1 MILLION...all because I did ALL of my own legal work. And $7,500 of that cost was because I allowed an attorney early-on to rip me off. After I fired that attorney for cause,,,,,,it only cost me $2,500 over the next 5 years...mostly for court filing fees, postage and copy fees. I doubt they will ever try that again. Richard In a message dated 12/22/2009 10:49:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, subincor writes: Another point, though, is that while pneumothorax is somewhat rare, it is also difficult to ascribe to a needle - a lesion would be next to impossible to find, and if the patient can be shown to have blebs (essentially ready-to-burst bubbles) already, then it would be a good defense to point this out. As a colleague of mine (MD) mentioned, " considering the overall safety profile of acupuncture, <WBR>complaining about the occassional p.tx. is silly, considering that pneumothorax are commonly caused by intubation. It is just something that goes along with medical procedures, and it is not even dangerous in the vast majority of people! " . Remember that many p.tx require observation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2009 Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 What you think are petty squabbles is extremely important in understanding the issues. Your choice to remain in the dark. Richard In a message dated 12/24/09 10:30:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, acukath writes: boys: please take this offline and duke it out btwn yourselves. this pointless argument does nothing to contribute to the discussion of the issue at hand, which is how to survive a malpractice suit. please discontinue dragging the level of the group discussion down with your petty squabbles. thank you, kath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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