Guest guest Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 I am sharing Don's experience that going back to school and earning a doctorate was worth it. In my first year out of school I doubled my clients and tripled my income, although my degree was not in Chinese medicine, it's in psychology. I would attribute that to 3 aspects 1. ) preselection ( the practitioners who return to school for their doctorate and those who decide not too are not the same people, 2.) Common factors of education. You start to think about yourself and your work differently, you skill set acquires depth and flexibility 3.) Sellability. In our culture everyone believes that people with more education, know more. I am the only practitioner with a doctorate in my town, and it's easy to convince people that that I know more. Voila - it almost certainly adds up to better income. And, yes, I also agree with Don that returning to school as a mid-career professional was extremely rewarding, and the student loans now look like a very small price to pay. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - " Donald Snow " <don83407 <Chinese Traditional Medicine > Sunday, December 13, 2009 8:23 PM RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > I really did not know what I was doing until about 3 years ago. I had > been perfecting my MET/integrated medicine methodology and had treated > about 1000 hours or so without any remuneration. I could not see charging > a patient when I couldn't guarantee the results. After that initial > experimentation period I could consistantly (95%+) get resolution of any > pain, neuropathy, or pathology and decided I would begin charging > patients. At first I took only cash patients and charged $250 per > treatment; and I got paid, too. But I noticed I was only getting a > particular class of patient and felt that what I did should be available > to all who desired it. (at this time I was practicing in San Diego and > teaching at PCOM) > > > > In 2007 I got an opportunity to move back home to Louisiana and I took a > job offered by an MD. These folks burned me very badly and they stole > money and they tried to steal my methodology. However, what I learned > from this is that I could actually bill insurance for my treatments (that > lesson cost me about $200,000 or more). Thereafter, I teamed up with > another MD and billed insurance under his/her license; and got paid. I > also got a contract to service 29 hospitals but it has taken be around 8 > months to figure out how to bill. I now have that figured out and have > hired my first AOM practitioner and she has just completed her training > with me and I will put her in our first hospital. But I have digressed a > little. > > > > I was able to bill right at $500,000 my first year working by myself, but > had to have two assistants helping me. I collected 80% of my billing > (which is real good, by the way). You must also understand this. The > reason hospitals do not want acupuncture is that there is no money in it > at $50 to $80 per treatment. Hospitals are a business and they need to > make money. When I treat a patient I get a minimum of $150 up to more > than $400 for some patients. The downside is that it takes me 1 to 2.5 > hours to treat one patient (now you know why I need assistants trained in > my copyrighted methodology). I am very stingy in who I show my > methodology and have a full time lawyer on my staff to take care of > contracts. I don't give it away. My patients get well in a dramatic and > profound way; even those with " irreversible " nerve damage. The results > are immediate and if a patient does not get the promised results, they do > not pay. Needless to say, I get paid. In the last year I have returned > money 4 times out of over 3000 patient visits. > > > > I now have another AOM practitioner working with me and we will see what I > can bill and collect now; however, it is yet to be seen. > > > > So folks, that's it in a nut shell. I answered this same question last > year on this same site and I doubt that I will answer it again. Hope this > satisfies you. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac > > > > P.S. As for the question " Do you use herbs? " The answer is yes. But not > nearly as often and I know longer use a compounding pharmacy. I use > teapill/patents. The methodology I use precludes my having to rely on > herbs as much, but I use them when I must. The patient must get better or > I don't get paid so I do whatever must be done to get the desired results. > djs > > > > Chinese Medicine > heylaurag > Mon, 14 Dec 2009 00:32:30 +0000 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > Hi Don, With that much education, I suspect you are in a similar position > as me--LOTS of student loans. I paid for my undergrad plus a masters in > social work from an expensive ivy league school plus the dual masters in > acupuncture and herbs with student loans. Then I was dumb enough not to > start paying on it right after I graduated (actually I couldn't afford > to). So I also accumulated massive interest. But...I really want to get a > doctorate! > > But I do work in a very deep way with the herbs, so I am not completely > convinced that a doctorate would educate me more than my own schooling by > practicing the medicine. Any thoughts on this? Also, how do you see enough > patients to make that much money if you also practice herbs (which take > time)? Do you have employees? Do you bill insurance? How much time do you > spend with each patient? I'd like to learn from you, so I appreciate > anything that you can share. > > Working on taxes this year I am dismayed to discover just how little I > actually make when I take my student loan payments into consideration. But > I turn down new patients all the time because I don't feel I have the time > to see them. So I must be doing something wrong. > > Thanks! > > Laura > > Chinese Medicine , Donald Snow > <don83407 wrote: >> >> >> Yes, definitions. Who defines what is being discussed? I practice >> integral medicine no matter what one may believe. That's what I call it >> and that is what my patients believe and that's what I do. I don't follow >> any " man " such a Lonny, Master Tong, etc. I follow my own path in finding >> the answers to our wonderful medicine and I make it what I will. This is >> what I do. If I followed a particular man or style, then that's what I >> would be doing. But I practice Dr. Snow's Acupuncture and Integrated >> Medical Systems. >> >> I make a mid-six figure income doing what I do so I'm doing something >> right. I went the extra mile and earned the DAOM, MPH, MS, etc. so I am >> relatively educated. And no matter what anyone says about that degree >> (esp. those that haven't actually done it), we delved into the classics >> at a much deeper level that the master's program. I'm a better >> practitioner for it. And most of all, I have a very high success in >> treatment rate which is why I have a booming practice. One is a >> technician until he makes the medicine his own. That applies to martial >> arts as well. I've seen many so-called masters that were not because they >> did not make the art a part of themselves. >> >> >> >> Well, these are only my opinions and I guess we all have one. >> >> >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> >> Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. >> >> >> >> Chinese Medicine >> johnkokko >> Sun, 13 Dec 2009 06:24:06 -0800 >> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. >> >> >> >> >> >> Yes... we all practice medicine, >> but " integral " and " integrative " medicine are 2 different birds. >> >> Very few people practice " integral " medicine, as Lonny can elaborate on. >> We all practice some form of " integrative " medicine, because that's what >> we >> learned in schools... a combination of many styles derived from 2 >> millennia >> of changes. >> That's why I opted for " integrative Chinese medicine " being the most >> honest >> and comprehensive name for what we do. >> >> K >> >> On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 6:18 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: >> >> > >> > Actually, what we practice is medicine. What you appear to want defined >> > is >> > the style, type, or founding root of what we do. I practice integral >> > medicine. I apply TCM/OM theory to MET and SCENAR then combine it with >> > our >> > TCM using specific methodology. But as f >> >> r as my patients are concerned, I practice medicine because they get >> better >> > very quickly. Oh semantics... >> > >> > >> > >> > Don >> > >> > >> > >> > Chinese Medicine >> > johnkokko >> > Sun, 13 Dec 2009 06:12:13 -0800 >> > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Global medicine sounds too " global " , >> > Chinese medicine might sound too " local " . >> > " Global " ? GCM? >> > >> > I actually like calling what we do Chinese medicine, >> > because it gives credit to the myriad of tribes/clans/villages of >> > people >> > who >> > developed the classics which are the foundation of >> > Korean/Japanese/Vietnamese/European/American acupuncture and formula >> > systems. We can break down the word " Chinese " , which is probably not >> > sufficient to describe these originators, since even today, China >> > geographically holds over 50 distinct ethnic groups, but it's the best >> > that >> > we've got. >> > >> > K >> > >> > On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 5:51 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: >> > >> > > >> > > How about naming our medicine modern " Global Medicine? " >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Chinese Medicine >> > > Revolution >> > > Sun, 13 Dec 2009 01:18:12 +0000 >> > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > John, >> > > >> > > I'm happy calling it Chinese medicine. But I think the real challenge >> > > is >> > to >> > > find a name that references it's present and future rather than its >> > > past. >> > > Many of the most significant advances in the medicine have been made >> > > in >> > the >> > > West in the last 60 years. It's a global medicine now being practiced >> > > according to many different value systems across cultures at >> > > different >> > > levels of development. It's interesting to consider who we are and >> > > what >> > we >> > > are really doing. Most of us aren't, in fact, practicing " Chinese " >> > medicine. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 Angela, you wrote: " I am the only practitioner with a doctorate in my town, and it's easy to convince people that that I know more. Voila - it almost certainly adds up to better income. " What will happen when every other acupuncturist has a doctorate degree, just like you? Will the playing field be leveled, so that your income diminishes and theirs raises and everybody has an equal piece of the pie? Or will you actually be making less money than your peers, since you will have a doctorate in psychology, while all the other acupuncturists will have a doctorate in acupuncture and oriental medicine? You will no longer be the expert; those with the acupuncture doctorates will be touted as the experts in the field. Chinese Medicine angelapfa Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:45:09 -0800 Re: Doctorates and Income I am sharing Don's experience that going back to school and earning a doctorate was worth it. In my first year out of school I doubled my clients and tripled my income, although my degree was not in Chinese medicine, it's in psychology. I would attribute that to 3 aspects 1. ) preselection ( the practitioners who return to school for their doctorate and those who decide not too are not the same people, 2.) Common factors of education. You start to think about yourself and your work differently, you skill set acquires depth and flexibility 3.) Sellability. In our culture everyone believes that people with more education, know more. I am the only practitioner with a doctorate in my town, and it's easy to convince people that that I know more. Voila - it almost certainly adds up to better income. And, yes, I also agree with Don that returning to school as a mid-career professional was extremely rewarding, and the student loans now look like a very small price to pay. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com _______________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 Angela, can you call yourself a doctor, even though your phD is in psychology, while you're treating Chinese medicine related patients? K On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 1:08 PM, Jessica Feltz Wolfson < shantileigh wrote: > > > > Angela, you wrote: " I am the only practitioner with a doctorate in my town, > and it's easy to convince people that that I know more. Voila - it almost > certainly adds up to better income. " > > What will happen when every other acupuncturist has a doctorate degree, > just like you? Will the playing field be leveled, so that your income > diminishes and theirs raises and everybody has an equal piece of the pie? Or > will you actually be making less money than your peers, since you will have > a doctorate in psychology, while all the other acupuncturists will have a > doctorate in acupuncture and oriental medicine? You will no longer be the > expert; those with the acupuncture doctorates will be touted as the experts > in the field. > > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > angelapfa <angelapfa%40comcast.net> > Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:45:09 -0800 > Re: Doctorates and Income > > > I am sharing Don's experience that going back to school and earning a > doctorate was worth it. In my first year out of school I doubled my clients > > and tripled my income, although my degree was not in Chinese medicine, it's > > in psychology. I would attribute that to 3 aspects 1. ) preselection ( the > practitioners who return to school for their doctorate and those who decide > > not too are not the same people, 2.) Common factors of education. You start > > to think about yourself and your work differently, you skill set acquires > depth and flexibility 3.) Sellability. In our culture everyone believes > that > people with more education, know more. I am the only practitioner with a > doctorate in my town, and it's easy to convince people that that I know > more. Voila - it almost certainly adds up to better income. And, yes, I > also > agree with Don that returning to school as a mid-career professional was > extremely rewarding, and the student loans now look like a very small price > > to pay. > > Regards, > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > angelapfa <angelapfa%40comcast.net> > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > > ________ > Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/ > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 Angela, I am sure you are a great practitioner from all your sharings on this listserve. I think that is why people come to you. My general response to this topic: In my own experience, I trippled my income in the last 2 years, and it was not because I got another degree. It was because my confidence in talking to patients grew and the way I managed my practice changed. I make a 6 figure income and work 3.5 days a week, and I am not an insurance provider. I always continue my studies as I did before this shift in my practice. So you could say it is additional education, but in truth it is about confidence in what I am doing and how I am conveying that to patients. I am not in favor of the doctorate being a standard in our profession. I think the schooling that is now required puts a lot of people in debt before they even begin practicing. As I saw on another listserve, " Let's start making the Master's degree a stronger degree. "  Let's make a bachelors degree a requirement to get into acupuncture school, with a hard look at grades. Of course the school curriculums could use a lot of revision. I don't think throwing on another year or two will change these things. I always thought the Doctorate or Ph.D was about research. Those that want to go on to research and carry that title, can certainly do so. I don't think it is a measure of a better practitioner. Respectfully, Anne Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com - " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > Monday, December 14, 2009 2:45:09 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Re: Doctorates and Income  I am sharing Don's experience that going back to school and earning a doctorate was worth it. In my first year out of school I doubled my clients and tripled my income, although my degree was not in Chinese medicine, it's in psychology. I would attribute that to 3 aspects 1. ) preselection ( the practitioners who return to school for their doctorate and those who decide not too are not the same people, 2.) Common factors of education. You start to think about yourself and your work differently, you skill set acquires depth and flexibility 3.) Sellability. In our culture everyone believes that people with more education, know more. I am the only practitioner with a doctorate in my town, and it's easy to convince people that that I know more. Voila - it almost certainly adds up to better income. And, yes, I also agree with Don that returning to school as a mid-career professional was extremely rewarding, and the student loans now look like a very small price to pay. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - " Donald Snow " < don83407 > < Chinese Traditional Medicine > Sunday, December 13, 2009 8:23 PM RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > I really did not know what I was doing until about 3 years ago. I had > been perfecting my MET/integrated medicine methodology and had treated > about 1000 hours or so without any remuneration. I could not see charging > a patient when I couldn't guarantee the results. After that initial > experimentation period I could consistantly (95%+) get resolution of any > pain, neuropathy, or pathology and decided I would begin charging > patients. At first I took only cash patients and charged $250 per > treatment; and I got paid, too. But I noticed I was only getting a > particular class of patient and felt that what I did should be available > to all who desired it. (at this time I was practicing in San Diego and > teaching at PCOM) > > > > In 2007 I got an opportunity to move back home to Louisiana and I took a > job offered by an MD. These folks burned me very badly and they stole > money and they tried to steal my methodology. However, what I learned > from this is that I could actually bill insurance for my treatments (that > lesson cost me about $200,000 or more). Thereafter, I teamed up with > another MD and billed insurance under his/her license; and got paid. I > also got a contract to service 29 hospitals but it has taken be around 8 > months to figure out how to bill. I now have that figured out and have > hired my first AOM practitioner and she has just completed her training > with me and I will put her in our first hospital. But I have digressed a > little. > > > > I was able to bill right at $500,000 my first year working by myself, but > had to have two assistants helping me. I collected 80% of my billing > (which is real good, by the way). You must also understand this. The > reason hospitals do not want acupuncture is that there is no money in it > at $50 to $80 per treatment. Hospitals are a business and they need to > make money. When I treat a patient I get a minimum of $150 up to more > than $400 for some patients. The downside is that it takes me 1 to 2.5 > hours to treat one patient (now you know why I need assistants trained in > my copyrighted methodology). I am very stingy in who I show my > methodology and have a full time lawyer on my staff to take care of > contracts. I don't give it away. My patients get well in a dramatic and > profound way; even those with " irreversible " nerve damage. The results > are immediate and if a patient does not get the promised results, they do > not pay. Needless to say, I get paid. In the last year I have returned > money 4 times out of over 3000 patient visits. > > > > I now have another AOM practitioner working with me and we will see what I > can bill and collect now; however, it is yet to be seen. > > > > So folks, that's it in a nut shell. I answered this same question last > year on this same site and I doubt that I will answer it again. Hope this > satisfies you. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac > > > > P.S. As for the question " Do you use herbs? " The answer is yes. But not > nearly as often and I know longer use a compounding pharmacy. I use > teapill/patents. The methodology I use precludes my having to rely on > herbs as much, but I use them when I must. The patient must get better or > I don't get paid so I do whatever must be done to get the desired results. > djs > > > > Chinese Medicine > heylaurag > Mon, 14 Dec 2009 00:32:30 +0000 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > Hi Don, With that much education, I suspect you are in a similar position > as me--LOTS of student loans. I paid for my undergrad plus a masters in > social work from an expensive ivy league school plus the dual masters in > acupuncture and herbs with student loans. Then I was dumb enough not to > start paying on it right after I graduated (actually I couldn't afford > to). So I also accumulated massive interest. But...I really want to get a > doctorate! > > But I do work in a very deep way with the herbs, so I am not completely > convinced that a doctorate would educate me more than my own schooling by > practicing the medicine. Any thoughts on this? Also, how do you see enough > patients to make that much money if you also practice herbs (which take > time)? Do you have employees? Do you bill insurance? How much time do you > spend with each patient? I'd like to learn from you, so I appreciate > anything that you can share. > > Working on taxes this year I am dismayed to discover just how little I > actually make when I take my student loan payments into consideration. But > I turn down new patients all the time because I don't feel I have the time > to see them. So I must be doing something wrong. > > Thanks! > > Laura > > Chinese Medicine , Donald Snow > <don83407 wrote: >> >> >> Yes, definitions. Who defines what is being discussed? I practice >> integral medicine no matter what one may believe. That's what I call it >> and that is what my patients believe and that's what I do. I don't follow >> any " man " such a Lonny, Master Tong, etc. I follow my own path in finding >> the answers to our wonderful medicine and I make it what I will. This is >> what I do. If I followed a particular man or style, then that's what I >> would be doing. But I practice Dr. Snow's Acupuncture and Integrated >> Medical Systems. >> >> I make a mid-six figure income doing what I do so I'm doing something >> right. I went the extra mile and earned the DAOM, MPH, MS, etc. so I am >> relatively educated. And no matter what anyone says about that degree >> (esp. those that haven't actually done it), we delved into the classics >> at a much deeper level that the master's program. I'm a better >> practitioner for it. And most of all, I have a very high success in >> treatment rate which is why I have a booming practice. One is a >> technician until he makes the medicine his own. That applies to martial >> arts as well. I've seen many so-called masters that were not because they >> did not make the art a part of themselves. >> >> >> >> Well, these are only my opinions and I guess we all have one. >> >> >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> >> Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. >> >> >> >> Chinese Medicine >> johnkokko >> Sun, 13 Dec 2009 06:24:06 -0800 >> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. >> >> >> >> >> >> Yes... we all practice medicine, >> but " integral " and " integrative " medicine are 2 different birds. >> >> Very few people practice " integral " medicine, as Lonny can elaborate on. >> We all practice some form of " integrative " medicine, because that's what >> we >> learned in schools... a combination of many styles derived from 2 >> millennia >> of changes. >> That's why I opted for " integrative Chinese medicine " being the most >> honest >> and comprehensive name for what we do. >> >> K >> >> On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 6:18 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: >> >> > >> > Actually, what we practice is medicine. What you appear to want defined >> > is >> > the style, type, or founding root of what we do. I practice integral >> > medicine. I apply TCM/OM theory to MET and SCENAR then combine it with >> > our >> > TCM using specific methodology. But as f >> >> r as my patients are concerned, I practice medicine because they get >> better >> > very quickly. Oh semantics... >> > >> > >> > >> > Don >> > >> > >> > >> > Chinese Medicine >> > johnkokko >> > Sun, 13 Dec 2009 06:12:13 -0800 >> > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Global medicine sounds too " global " , >> > Chinese medicine might sound too " local " . >> > " Global " ? GCM? >> > >> > I actually like calling what we do Chinese medicine, >> > because it gives credit to the myriad of tribes/clans/villages of >> > people >> > who >> > developed the classics which are the foundation of >> > Korean/Japanese/Vietnamese/European/American acupuncture and formula >> > systems. We can break down the word " Chinese " , which is probably not >> > sufficient to describe these originators, since even today, China >> > geographically holds over 50 distinct ethnic groups, but it's the best >> > that >> > we've got. >> > >> > K >> > >> > On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 5:51 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: >> > >> > > >> > > How about naming our medicine modern " Global Medicine? " >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Chinese Medicine >> > > Revolution >> > > Sun, 13 Dec 2009 01:18:12 +0000 >> > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > John, >> > > >> > > I'm happy calling it Chinese medicine. But I think the real challenge >> > > is >> > to >> > > find a name that references it's present and future rather than its >> > > past. >> > > Many of the most significant advances in the medicine have been made >> > > in >> > the >> > > West in the last 60 years. It's a global medicine now being practiced >> > > according to many different value systems across cultures at >> > > different >> > > levels of development. It's interesting to consider who we are and >> > > what >> > we >> > > are really doing. Most of us aren't, in fact, practicing " Chinese " >> > medicine. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 It's a bit of a gray area. You can use any degree you have earn from an accredited educational institution AND you have to make a good faith effort to represent your credentials accurately. I am VERY explicit in all advertising, including my website that my degree is in psychology. In terms of using the degree in the clinic, I personally feel, and that might be related to the fact that I am European, that adults either have a first name of a second name relationship, and I would consider it rude to encourage people to call me Dr Pfaffenberger and then address them as " John. " I don't tolerate this kind behavior from my dentist or optometrist either, I got them trained into addressing me as Dr Pfaffenberger if they want such curtsey from me. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - " " <johnkokko <Chinese Medicine > Monday, December 14, 2009 2:50 PM Re: Doctorates and Income > Angela, > can you call yourself a doctor, even though your phD is in psychology, > while you're treating Chinese medicine related patients? > > > K > > > > On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 1:08 PM, Jessica Feltz Wolfson < > shantileigh wrote: > >> >> >> >> Angela, you wrote: " I am the only practitioner with a doctorate in my >> town, >> and it's easy to convince people that that I know more. Voila - it almost >> certainly adds up to better income. " >> >> What will happen when every other acupuncturist has a doctorate degree, >> just like you? Will the playing field be leveled, so that your income >> diminishes and theirs raises and everybody has an equal piece of the pie? >> Or >> will you actually be making less money than your peers, since you will >> have >> a doctorate in psychology, while all the other acupuncturists will have a >> doctorate in acupuncture and oriental medicine? You will no longer be the >> expert; those with the acupuncture doctorates will be touted as the >> experts >> in the field. >> >> >> To: >> Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> >> angelapfa <angelapfa%40comcast.net> >> Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:45:09 -0800 >> Re: Doctorates and Income >> >> >> I am sharing Don's experience that going back to school and earning a >> doctorate was worth it. In my first year out of school I doubled my >> clients >> >> and tripled my income, although my degree was not in Chinese medicine, >> it's >> >> in psychology. I would attribute that to 3 aspects 1. ) preselection ( >> the >> practitioners who return to school for their doctorate and those who >> decide >> >> not too are not the same people, 2.) Common factors of education. You >> start >> >> to think about yourself and your work differently, you skill set acquires >> depth and flexibility 3.) Sellability. In our culture everyone believes >> that >> people with more education, know more. I am the only practitioner with a >> doctorate in my town, and it's easy to convince people that that I know >> more. Voila - it almost certainly adds up to better income. And, yes, I >> also >> agree with Don that returning to school as a mid-career professional was >> extremely rewarding, and the student loans now look like a very small >> price >> >> to pay. >> >> Regards, >> Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. >> >> angelapfa <angelapfa%40comcast.net> >> >> www.InnerhealthSalem.com >> >> >> ________ >> Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. >> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/ >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 I am NOT saying that a doctorate is the only way to increase your income or knowledge; I was just saying I personally really valued that educational experience. The discussion about FTD is getting a bit stale for me. I can see that many different people have a valid perspective and many aspects need to be taken into consideration. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - Anne Crowley Traditional Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:22 AM Re: Doctorates and Income Angela, I am sure you are a great practitioner from all your sharings on this listserve. I think that is why people come to you. My general response to this topic: In my own experience, I trippled my income in the last 2 years, and it was not because I got another degree. It was because my confidence in talking to patients grew and the way I managed my practice changed. I make a 6 figure income and work 3.5 days a week, and I am not an insurance provider. I always continue my studies as I did before this shift in my practice. So you could say it is additional education, but in truth it is about confidence in what I am doing and how I am conveying that to patients. I am not in favor of the doctorate being a standard in our profession. I think the schooling that is now required puts a lot of people in debt before they even begin practicing. As I saw on another listserve, " Let's start making the Master's degree a stronger degree. " Let's make a bachelors degree a requirement to get into acupuncture school, with a hard look at grades. Of course the school curriculums could use a lot of revision. I don't think throwing on another year or two will change these things. I always thought the Doctorate or Ph.D was about research. Those that want to go on to research and carry that title, can certainly do so. I don't think it is a measure of a better practitioner. Respectfully, Anne Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com - " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > Monday, December 14, 2009 2:45:09 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Re: Doctorates and Income I am sharing Don's experience that going back to school and earning a doctorate was worth it. In my first year out of school I doubled my clients and tripled my income, although my degree was not in Chinese medicine, it's in psychology. I would attribute that to 3 aspects 1. ) preselection ( the practitioners who return to school for their doctorate and those who decide not too are not the same people, 2.) Common factors of education. You start to think about yourself and your work differently, you skill set acquires depth and flexibility 3.) Sellability. In our culture everyone believes that people with more education, know more. I am the only practitioner with a doctorate in my town, and it's easy to convince people that that I know more. Voila - it almost certainly adds up to better income. And, yes, I also agree with Don that returning to school as a mid-career professional was extremely rewarding, and the student loans now look like a very small price to pay. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - " Donald Snow " < don83407 > < Chinese Traditional Medicine > Sunday, December 13, 2009 8:23 PM RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > I really did not know what I was doing until about 3 years ago. I had > been perfecting my MET/integrated medicine methodology and had treated > about 1000 hours or so without any remuneration. I could not see charging > a patient when I couldn't guarantee the results. After that initial > experimentation period I could consistantly (95%+) get resolution of any > pain, neuropathy, or pathology and decided I would begin charging > patients. At first I took only cash patients and charged $250 per > treatment; and I got paid, too. But I noticed I was only getting a > particular class of patient and felt that what I did should be available > to all who desired it. (at this time I was practicing in San Diego and > teaching at PCOM) > > > > In 2007 I got an opportunity to move back home to Louisiana and I took a > job offered by an MD. These folks burned me very badly and they stole > money and they tried to steal my methodology. However, what I learned > from this is that I could actually bill insurance for my treatments (that > lesson cost me about $200,000 or more). Thereafter, I teamed up with > another MD and billed insurance under his/her license; and got paid. I > also got a contract to service 29 hospitals but it has taken be around 8 > months to figure out how to bill. I now have that figured out and have > hired my first AOM practitioner and she has just completed her training > with me and I will put her in our first hospital. But I have digressed a > little. > > > > I was able to bill right at $500,000 my first year working by myself, but > had to have two assistants helping me. I collected 80% of my billing > (which is real good, by the way). You must also understand this. The > reason hospitals do not want acupuncture is that there is no money in it > at $50 to $80 per treatment. Hospitals are a business and they need to > make money. When I treat a patient I get a minimum of $150 up to more > than $400 for some patients. The downside is that it takes me 1 to 2.5 > hours to treat one patient (now you know why I need assistants trained in > my copyrighted methodology). I am very stingy in who I show my > methodology and have a full time lawyer on my staff to take care of > contracts. I don't give it away. My patients get well in a dramatic and > profound way; even those with " irreversible " nerve damage. The results > are immediate and if a patient does not get the promised results, they do > not pay. Needless to say, I get paid. In the last year I have returned > money 4 times out of over 3000 patient visits. > > > > I now have another AOM practitioner working with me and we will see what I > can bill and collect now; however, it is yet to be seen. > > > > So folks, that's it in a nut shell. I answered this same question last > year on this same site and I doubt that I will answer it again. Hope this > satisfies you. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac > > > > P.S. As for the question " Do you use herbs? " The answer is yes. But not > nearly as often and I know longer use a compounding pharmacy. I use > teapill/patents. The methodology I use precludes my having to rely on > herbs as much, but I use them when I must. The patient must get better or > I don't get paid so I do whatever must be done to get the desired results. > djs > > > > Chinese Medicine > heylaurag > Mon, 14 Dec 2009 00:32:30 +0000 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > Hi Don, With that much education, I suspect you are in a similar position > as me--LOTS of student loans. I paid for my undergrad plus a masters in > social work from an expensive ivy league school plus the dual masters in > acupuncture and herbs with student loans. Then I was dumb enough not to > start paying on it right after I graduated (actually I couldn't afford > to). So I also accumulated massive interest. But...I really want to get a > doctorate! > > But I do work in a very deep way with the herbs, so I am not completely > convinced that a doctorate would educate me more than my own schooling by > practicing the medicine. Any thoughts on this? Also, how do you see enough > patients to make that much money if you also practice herbs (which take > time)? Do you have employees? Do you bill insurance? How much time do you > spend with each patient? I'd like to learn from you, so I appreciate > anything that you can share. > > Working on taxes this year I am dismayed to discover just how little I > actually make when I take my student loan payments into consideration. But > I turn down new patients all the time because I don't feel I have the time > to see them. So I must be doing something wrong. > > Thanks! > > Laura > > Chinese Medicine , Donald Snow > <don83407 wrote: >> >> >> Yes, definitions. Who defines what is being discussed? I practice >> integral medicine no matter what one may believe. That's what I call it >> and that is what my patients believe and that's what I do. I don't follow >> any " man " such a Lonny, Master Tong, etc. I follow my own path in finding >> the answers to our wonderful medicine and I make it what I will. This is >> what I do. If I followed a particular man or style, then that's what I >> would be doing. But I practice Dr. Snow's Acupuncture and Integrated >> Medical Systems. >> >> I make a mid-six figure income doing what I do so I'm doing something >> right. I went the extra mile and earned the DAOM, MPH, MS, etc. so I am >> relatively educated. And no matter what anyone says about that degree >> (esp. those that haven't actually done it), we delved into the classics >> at a much deeper level that the master's program. I'm a better >> practitioner for it. And most of all, I have a very high success in >> treatment rate which is why I have a booming practice. One is a >> technician until he makes the medicine his own. That applies to martial >> arts as well. I've seen many so-called masters that were not because they >> did not make the art a part of themselves. >> >> >> >> Well, these are only my opinions and I guess we all have one. >> >> >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> >> Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. >> >> >> >> Chinese Medicine >> johnkokko >> Sun, 13 Dec 2009 06:24:06 -0800 >> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. >> >> >> >> >> >> Yes... we all practice medicine, >> but " integral " and " integrative " medicine are 2 different birds. >> >> Very few people practice " integral " medicine, as Lonny can elaborate on. >> We all practice some form of " integrative " medicine, because that's what >> we >> learned in schools... a combination of many styles derived from 2 >> millennia >> of changes. >> That's why I opted for " integrative Chinese medicine " being the most >> honest >> and comprehensive name for what we do. >> >> K >> >> On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 6:18 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: >> >> > >> > Actually, what we practice is medicine. What you appear to want defined >> > is >> > the style, type, or founding root of what we do. I practice integral >> > medicine. I apply TCM/OM theory to MET and SCENAR then combine it with >> > our >> > TCM using specific methodology. But as f >> >> r as my patients are concerned, I practice medicine because they get >> better >> > very quickly. Oh semantics... >> > >> > >> > >> > Don >> > >> > >> > >> > Chinese Medicine >> > johnkokko >> > Sun, 13 Dec 2009 06:12:13 -0800 >> > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Global medicine sounds too " global " , >> > Chinese medicine might sound too " local " . >> > " Global " ? GCM? >> > >> > I actually like calling what we do Chinese medicine, >> > because it gives credit to the myriad of tribes/clans/villages of >> > people >> > who >> > developed the classics which are the foundation of >> > Korean/Japanese/Vietnamese/European/American acupuncture and formula >> > systems. We can break down the word " Chinese " , which is probably not >> > sufficient to describe these originators, since even today, China >> > geographically holds over 50 distinct ethnic groups, but it's the best >> > that >> > we've got. >> > >> > K >> > >> > On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 5:51 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: >> > >> > > >> > > How about naming our medicine modern " Global Medicine? " >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Chinese Medicine >> > > Revolution >> > > Sun, 13 Dec 2009 01:18:12 +0000 >> > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > John, >> > > >> > > I'm happy calling it Chinese medicine. But I think the real challenge >> > > is >> > to >> > > find a name that references it's present and future rather than its >> > > past. >> > > Many of the most significant advances in the medicine have been made >> > > in >> > the >> > > West in the last 60 years. It's a global medicine now being practiced >> > > according to many different value systems across cultures at >> > > different >> > > levels of development. It's interesting to consider who we are and >> > > what >> > we >> > > are really doing. Most of us aren't, in fact, practicing " Chinese " >> > medicine. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 I have mixed feelings about this topic. I consider myself a doctor. I treat as many health conditions as a doctor and I carry close to the same level of responsibility. And certainly my work is just as challenging. I think that especially if you practice herbs it feels exactly the same as being a doctor. And so even though I don't want to give in to this kind of prideful reaction, I really hate it when my patients treat me like I am on the level of a massage therapist whereas they treat their naturopath with the reverance of a doctor. I often want to say, " my medicine has thousands of years behind it whereas naturopathic medicine is relatively new " . Of course I resist this urge, but its there. From this perspective I like the idea of a doctorate becoming a standard in our profession. However, I also have an absurd level of student loans and I am not paid well enough to justify going back to school for a doctorate. I work full time and usually have a waiting list--so getting a doctorate is not going to increase my income. So realistically I think that the masters level needs to continue to be a valid level to practice from, but that the doctorate should also be an integral part of our profession in order to bring due respect to our work. Chinese Medicine , " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa wrote: > > I am NOT saying that a doctorate is the only way to increase your income or knowledge; I was just saying I personally really valued that educational experience. > The discussion about FTD is getting a bit stale for me. I can see that many different people have a valid perspective and many aspects need to be taken into consideration. > > Regards, > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > angelapfa > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > - > Anne Crowley > Traditional > Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:22 AM > Re: Doctorates and Income > > > > > > Angela, > > I am sure you are a great practitioner from all your sharings on this listserve. I think that is why people come to you. > > My general response to this topic: > > In my own experience, I trippled my income in the last 2 years, and it was not because I got another degree. It was because my confidence in talking to patients grew and the way I managed my practice changed. I make a 6 figure income and work 3.5 days a week, and I am not an insurance provider. I always continue my studies as I did before this shift in my practice. So you could say it is additional education, but in truth it is about confidence in what I am doing and how I am conveying that to patients. > > I am not in favor of the doctorate being a standard in our profession. I think the schooling that is now required puts a lot of people in debt before they even begin practicing. As I saw on another listserve, " Let's start making the Master's degree a stronger degree. " Let's make a bachelors degree a requirement to get into acupuncture school, with a hard look at grades. Of course the school curriculums could use a lot of revision. I don't think throwing on another year or two will change these things. I always thought the Doctorate or Ph.D was about research. Those that want to go on to research and carry that title, can certainly do so. I don't think it is a measure of a better practitioner. > > Respectfully, > > Anne > > Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. > www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com > > - > " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa > " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > > Monday, December 14, 2009 2:45:09 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > Re: Doctorates and Income > > > > I am sharing Don's experience that going back to school and earning a > doctorate was worth it. In my first year out of school I doubled my clients > and tripled my income, although my degree was not in Chinese medicine, it's > in psychology. I would attribute that to 3 aspects 1. ) preselection ( the > practitioners who return to school for their doctorate and those who decide > not too are not the same people, 2.) Common factors of education. You start > to think about yourself and your work differently, you skill set acquires > depth and flexibility 3.) Sellability. In our culture everyone believes that > people with more education, know more. I am the only practitioner with a > doctorate in my town, and it's easy to convince people that that I know > more. Voila - it almost certainly adds up to better income. And, yes, I also > agree with Don that returning to school as a mid-career professional was > extremely rewarding, and the student loans now look like a very small price > to pay. > > Regards, > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > angelapfa > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > - > " Donald Snow " < don83407 > > < Chinese Traditional Medicine > > Sunday, December 13, 2009 8:23 PM > RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > I really did not know what I was doing until about 3 years ago. I had > > been perfecting my MET/integrated medicine methodology and had treated > > about 1000 hours or so without any remuneration. I could not see charging > > a patient when I couldn't guarantee the results. After that initial > > experimentation period I could consistantly (95%+) get resolution of any > > pain, neuropathy, or pathology and decided I would begin charging > > patients. At first I took only cash patients and charged $250 per > > treatment; and I got paid, too. But I noticed I was only getting a > > particular class of patient and felt that what I did should be available > > to all who desired it. (at this time I was practicing in San Diego and > > teaching at PCOM) > > > > > > > > In 2007 I got an opportunity to move back home to Louisiana and I took a > > job offered by an MD. These folks burned me very badly and they stole > > money and they tried to steal my methodology. However, what I learned > > from this is that I could actually bill insurance for my treatments (that > > lesson cost me about $200,000 or more). Thereafter, I teamed up with > > another MD and billed insurance under his/her license; and got paid. I > > also got a contract to service 29 hospitals but it has taken be around 8 > > months to figure out how to bill. I now have that figured out and have > > hired my first AOM practitioner and she has just completed her training > > with me and I will put her in our first hospital. But I have digressed a > > little. > > > > > > > > I was able to bill right at $500,000 my first year working by myself, but > > had to have two assistants helping me. I collected 80% of my billing > > (which is real good, by the way). You must also understand this. The > > reason hospitals do not want acupuncture is that there is no money in it > > at $50 to $80 per treatment. Hospitals are a business and they need to > > make money. When I treat a patient I get a minimum of $150 up to more > > than $400 for some patients. The downside is that it takes me 1 to 2.5 > > hours to treat one patient (now you know why I need assistants trained in > > my copyrighted methodology). I am very stingy in who I show my > > methodology and have a full time lawyer on my staff to take care of > > contracts. I don't give it away. My patients get well in a dramatic and > > profound way; even those with " irreversible " nerve damage. The results > > are immediate and if a patient does not get the promised results, they do > > not pay. Needless to say, I get paid. In the last year I have returned > > money 4 times out of over 3000 patient visits. > > > > > > > > I now have another AOM practitioner working with me and we will see what I > > can bill and collect now; however, it is yet to be seen. > > > > > > > > So folks, that's it in a nut shell. I answered this same question last > > year on this same site and I doubt that I will answer it again. Hope this > > satisfies you. > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac > > > > > > > > P.S. As for the question " Do you use herbs? " The answer is yes. But not > > nearly as often and I know longer use a compounding pharmacy. I use > > teapill/patents. The methodology I use precludes my having to rely on > > herbs as much, but I use them when I must. The patient must get better or > > I don't get paid so I do whatever must be done to get the desired results. > > djs > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > heylaurag > > Mon, 14 Dec 2009 00:32:30 +0000 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Don, With that much education, I suspect you are in a similar position > > as me--LOTS of student loans. I paid for my undergrad plus a masters in > > social work from an expensive ivy league school plus the dual masters in > > acupuncture and herbs with student loans. Then I was dumb enough not to > > start paying on it right after I graduated (actually I couldn't afford > > to). So I also accumulated massive interest. But...I really want to get a > > doctorate! > > > > But I do work in a very deep way with the herbs, so I am not completely > > convinced that a doctorate would educate me more than my own schooling by > > practicing the medicine. Any thoughts on this? Also, how do you see enough > > patients to make that much money if you also practice herbs (which take > > time)? Do you have employees? Do you bill insurance? How much time do you > > spend with each patient? I'd like to learn from you, so I appreciate > > anything that you can share. > > > > Working on taxes this year I am dismayed to discover just how little I > > actually make when I take my student loan payments into consideration. But > > I turn down new patients all the time because I don't feel I have the time > > to see them. So I must be doing something wrong. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Laura > > > > Chinese Medicine , Donald Snow > > <don83407@> wrote: > >> > >> > >> Yes, definitions. Who defines what is being discussed? I practice > >> integral medicine no matter what one may believe. That's what I call it > >> and that is what my patients believe and that's what I do. I don't follow > >> any " man " such a Lonny, Master Tong, etc. I follow my own path in finding > >> the answers to our wonderful medicine and I make it what I will. This is > >> what I do. If I followed a particular man or style, then that's what I > >> would be doing. But I practice Dr. Snow's Acupuncture and Integrated > >> Medical Systems. > >> > >> I make a mid-six figure income doing what I do so I'm doing something > >> right. I went the extra mile and earned the DAOM, MPH, MS, etc. so I am > >> relatively educated. And no matter what anyone says about that degree > >> (esp. those that haven't actually done it), we delved into the classics > >> at a much deeper level that the master's program. I'm a better > >> practitioner for it. And most of all, I have a very high success in > >> treatment rate which is why I have a booming practice. One is a > >> technician until he makes the medicine his own. That applies to martial > >> arts as well. I've seen many so-called masters that were not because they > >> did not make the art a part of themselves. > >> > >> > >> > >> Well, these are only my opinions and I guess we all have one. > >> > >> > >> > >> Sincerely, > >> > >> > >> > >> Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > >> > >> > >> > >> Chinese Medicine > >> johnkokko@ > >> Sun, 13 Dec 2009 06:24:06 -0800 > >> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Yes... we all practice medicine, > >> but " integral " and " integrative " medicine are 2 different birds. > >> > >> Very few people practice " integral " medicine, as Lonny can elaborate on. > >> We all practice some form of " integrative " medicine, because that's what > >> we > >> learned in schools... a combination of many styles derived from 2 > >> millennia > >> of changes. > >> That's why I opted for " integrative Chinese medicine " being the most > >> honest > >> and comprehensive name for what we do. > >> > >> K > >> > >> On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 6:18 AM, Donald Snow <don83407@> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > Actually, what we practice is medicine. What you appear to want defined > >> > is > >> > the style, type, or founding root of what we do. I practice integral > >> > medicine. I apply TCM/OM theory to MET and SCENAR then combine it with > >> > our > >> > TCM using specific methodology. But as f > >> > >> r as my patients are concerned, I practice medicine because they get > >> better > >> > very quickly. Oh semantics... > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Don > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Chinese Medicine > >> > johnkokko@ > >> > Sun, 13 Dec 2009 06:12:13 -0800 > >> > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Global medicine sounds too " global " , > >> > Chinese medicine might sound too " local " . > >> > " Global " ? GCM? > >> > > >> > I actually like calling what we do Chinese medicine, > >> > because it gives credit to the myriad of tribes/clans/villages of > >> > people > >> > who > >> > developed the classics which are the foundation of > >> > Korean/Japanese/Vietnamese/European/American acupuncture and formula > >> > systems. We can break down the word " Chinese " , which is probably not > >> > sufficient to describe these originators, since even today, China > >> > geographically holds over 50 distinct ethnic groups, but it's the best > >> > that > >> > we've got. > >> > > >> > K > >> > > >> > On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 5:51 AM, Donald Snow <don83407@> wrote: > >> > > >> > > > >> > > How about naming our medicine modern " Global Medicine? " > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Chinese Medicine > >> > > Revolution@ > >> > > Sun, 13 Dec 2009 01:18:12 +0000 > >> > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > John, > >> > > > >> > > I'm happy calling it Chinese medicine. But I think the real challenge > >> > > is > >> > to > >> > > find a name that references it's present and future rather than its > >> > > past. > >> > > Many of the most significant advances in the medicine have been made > >> > > in > >> > the > >> > > West in the last 60 years. It's a global medicine now being practiced > >> > > according to many different value systems across cultures at > >> > > different > >> > > levels of development. It's interesting to consider who we are and > >> > > what > >> > we > >> > > are really doing. Most of us aren't, in fact, practicing " Chinese " > >> > medicine. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 Hi Anne, do you mind sharing how much you charge per visit and how many patients you see per week? Also, do you practice herbs? Last year I made close to 6 figures, but this year I am discouraged to see that I made less. I had plenty of patients coming my way, but I turned down many new patients because I was too busy working with herbs. I did a lot more herbs this year. I'd like to think that as I become more skilled with herbs I will become fast enough that it will no longer lead to a decreased income when I have more herbal patients. Anyway, everybody is probably tired of hearing me talk about this--I've brought it up about in about a dozen different messages at this point! But having just added up my 2009 income for taxes I am very frustrated. Chinese Medicine , Anne Crowley <anne.crowley wrote: > > > > Angela, > > > > I am sure you are a great practitioner from all your sharings on this listserve. I think that is why people come to you. > > > > My general response to this topic: > > > > In my own experience, I trippled my income in the last 2 years, and it was not because I got another degree. It was because my confidence in talking to patients grew and the way I managed my practice changed. I make a 6 figure income and work 3.5 days a week, and I am not an insurance provider. I always continue my studies as I did before this shift in my practice. So you could say it is additional education, but in truth it is about confidence in what I am doing and how I am conveying that to patients. > > > I am not in favor of the doctorate being a standard in our profession. I think the schooling that is now required puts a lot of people in debt before they even begin practicing. As I saw on another listserve, " Let's start making the Master's degree a stronger degree. "  Let's make a bachelors degree a requirement to get into acupuncture school, with a hard look at grades. Of course the school curriculums could use a lot of revision. I don't think throwing on another year or two will change these things. I always thought the Doctorate or Ph.D was about research. Those that want to go on to research and carry that title, can certainly do so. I don't think it is a measure of a better practitioner. > > > > Respectfully, > > > > Anne > > > Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. > www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com > > - > " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa > " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > > Monday, December 14, 2009 2:45:09 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > Re: Doctorates and Income > >  > > > > > I am sharing Don's experience that going back to school and earning a > doctorate was worth it. In my first year out of school I doubled my clients > and tripled my income, although my degree was not in Chinese medicine, it's > in psychology. I would attribute that to 3 aspects 1. ) preselection ( the > practitioners who return to school for their doctorate and those who decide > not too are not the same people, 2.) Common factors of education. You start > to think about yourself and your work differently, you skill set acquires > depth and flexibility 3.) Sellability. In our culture everyone believes that > people with more education, know more. I am the only practitioner with a > doctorate in my town, and it's easy to convince people that that I know > more. Voila - it almost certainly adds up to better income. And, yes, I also > agree with Don that returning to school as a mid-career professional was > extremely rewarding, and the student loans now look like a very small price > to pay. > > Regards, > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > angelapfa > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > - > " Donald Snow " < don83407 > > < Chinese Traditional Medicine > > Sunday, December 13, 2009 8:23 PM > RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > I really did not know what I was doing until about 3 years ago. I had > > been perfecting my MET/integrated medicine methodology and had treated > > about 1000 hours or so without any remuneration. I could not see charging > > a patient when I couldn't guarantee the results. After that initial > > experimentation period I could consistantly (95%+) get resolution of any > > pain, neuropathy, or pathology and decided I would begin charging > > patients. At first I took only cash patients and charged $250 per > > treatment; and I got paid, too. But I noticed I was only getting a > > particular class of patient and felt that what I did should be available > > to all who desired it. (at this time I was practicing in San Diego and > > teaching at PCOM) > > > > > > > > In 2007 I got an opportunity to move back home to Louisiana and I took a > > job offered by an MD. These folks burned me very badly and they stole > > money and they tried to steal my methodology. However, what I learned > > from this is that I could actually bill insurance for my treatments (that > > lesson cost me about $200,000 or more). Thereafter, I teamed up with > > another MD and billed insurance under his/her license; and got paid. I > > also got a contract to service 29 hospitals but it has taken be around 8 > > months to figure out how to bill. I now have that figured out and have > > hired my first AOM practitioner and she has just completed her training > > with me and I will put her in our first hospital. But I have digressed a > > little. > > > > > > > > I was able to bill right at $500,000 my first year working by myself, but > > had to have two assistants helping me. I collected 80% of my billing > > (which is real good, by the way). You must also understand this. The > > reason hospitals do not want acupuncture is that there is no money in it > > at $50 to $80 per treatment. Hospitals are a business and they need to > > make money. When I treat a patient I get a minimum of $150 up to more > > than $400 for some patients. The downside is that it takes me 1 to 2.5 > > hours to treat one patient (now you know why I need assistants trained in > > my copyrighted methodology). I am very stingy in who I show my > > methodology and have a full time lawyer on my staff to take care of > > contracts. I don't give it away. My patients get well in a dramatic and > > profound way; even those with " irreversible " nerve damage. The results > > are immediate and if a patient does not get the promised results, they do > > not pay. Needless to say, I get paid. In the last year I have returned > > money 4 times out of over 3000 patient visits. > > > > > > > > I now have another AOM practitioner working with me and we will see what I > > can bill and collect now; however, it is yet to be seen. > > > > > > > > So folks, that's it in a nut shell. I answered this same question last > > year on this same site and I doubt that I will answer it again. Hope this > > satisfies you. > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac > > > > > > > > P.S. As for the question " Do you use herbs? " The answer is yes. But not > > nearly as often and I know longer use a compounding pharmacy. I use > > teapill/patents. The methodology I use precludes my having to rely on > > herbs as much, but I use them when I must. The patient must get better or > > I don't get paid so I do whatever must be done to get the desired results. > > djs > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > heylaurag > > Mon, 14 Dec 2009 00:32:30 +0000 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Don, With that much education, I suspect you are in a similar position > > as me--LOTS of student loans. I paid for my undergrad plus a masters in > > social work from an expensive ivy league school plus the dual masters in > > acupuncture and herbs with student loans. Then I was dumb enough not to > > start paying on it right after I graduated (actually I couldn't afford > > to). So I also accumulated massive interest. But...I really want to get a > > doctorate! > > > > But I do work in a very deep way with the herbs, so I am not completely > > convinced that a doctorate would educate me more than my own schooling by > > practicing the medicine. Any thoughts on this? Also, how do you see enough > > patients to make that much money if you also practice herbs (which take > > time)? Do you have employees? Do you bill insurance? How much time do you > > spend with each patient? I'd like to learn from you, so I appreciate > > anything that you can share. > > > > Working on taxes this year I am dismayed to discover just how little I > > actually make when I take my student loan payments into consideration. But > > I turn down new patients all the time because I don't feel I have the time > > to see them. So I must be doing something wrong. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Laura > > > > Chinese Medicine , Donald Snow > > <don83407@> wrote: > >> > >> > >> Yes, definitions. Who defines what is being discussed? I practice > >> integral medicine no matter what one may believe. That's what I call it > >> and that is what my patients believe and that's what I do. I don't follow > >> any " man " such a Lonny, Master Tong, etc. I follow my own path in finding > >> the answers to our wonderful medicine and I make it what I will. This is > >> what I do. If I followed a particular man or style, then that's what I > >> would be doing. But I practice Dr. Snow's Acupuncture and Integrated > >> Medical Systems. > >> > >> I make a mid-six figure income doing what I do so I'm doing something > >> right. I went the extra mile and earned the DAOM, MPH, MS, etc. so I am > >> relatively educated. And no matter what anyone says about that degree > >> (esp. those that haven't actually done it), we delved into the classics > >> at a much deeper level that the master's program. I'm a better > >> practitioner for it. And most of all, I have a very high success in > >> treatment rate which is why I have a booming practice. One is a > >> technician until he makes the medicine his own. That applies to martial > >> arts as well. I've seen many so-called masters that were not because they > >> did not make the art a part of themselves. > >> > >> > >> > >> Well, these are only my opinions and I guess we all have one. > >> > >> > >> > >> Sincerely, > >> > >> > >> > >> Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > >> > >> > >> > >> Chinese Medicine > >> johnkokko@ > >> Sun, 13 Dec 2009 06:24:06 -0800 > >> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Yes... we all practice medicine, > >> but " integral " and " integrative " medicine are 2 different birds. > >> > >> Very few people practice " integral " medicine, as Lonny can elaborate on. > >> We all practice some form of " integrative " medicine, because that's what > >> we > >> learned in schools... a combination of many styles derived from 2 > >> millennia > >> of changes. > >> That's why I opted for " integrative Chinese medicine " being the most > >> honest > >> and comprehensive name for what we do. > >> > >> K > >> > >> On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 6:18 AM, Donald Snow <don83407@> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > Actually, what we practice is medicine. What you appear to want defined > >> > is > >> > the style, type, or founding root of what we do. I practice integral > >> > medicine. I apply TCM/OM theory to MET and SCENAR then combine it with > >> > our > >> > TCM using specific methodology. But as f > >> > >> r as my patients are concerned, I practice medicine because they get > >> better > >> > very quickly. Oh semantics... > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Don > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Chinese Medicine > >> > johnkokko@ > >> > Sun, 13 Dec 2009 06:12:13 -0800 > >> > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Global medicine sounds too " global " , > >> > Chinese medicine might sound too " local " . > >> > " Global " ? GCM? > >> > > >> > I actually like calling what we do Chinese medicine, > >> > because it gives credit to the myriad of tribes/clans/villages of > >> > people > >> > who > >> > developed the classics which are the foundation of > >> > Korean/Japanese/Vietnamese/European/American acupuncture and formula > >> > systems. We can break down the word " Chinese " , which is probably not > >> > sufficient to describe these originators, since even today, China > >> > geographically holds over 50 distinct ethnic groups, but it's the best > >> > that > >> > we've got. > >> > > >> > K > >> > > >> > On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 5:51 AM, Donald Snow <don83407@> wrote: > >> > > >> > > > >> > > How about naming our medicine modern " Global Medicine? " > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Chinese Medicine > >> > > Revolution@ > >> > > Sun, 13 Dec 2009 01:18:12 +0000 > >> > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > John, > >> > > > >> > > I'm happy calling it Chinese medicine. But I think the real challenge > >> > > is > >> > to > >> > > find a name that references it's present and future rather than its > >> > > past. > >> > > Many of the most significant advances in the medicine have been made > >> > > in > >> > the > >> > > West in the last 60 years. It's a global medicine now being practiced > >> > > according to many different value systems across cultures at > >> > > different > >> > > levels of development. It's interesting to consider who we are and > >> > > what > >> > we > >> > > are really doing. Most of us aren't, in fact, practicing " Chinese " > >> > medicine. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 I was a P.A. (Physician's Assistant) for over 22 years and did everything from surgery to writing prescriptions without the supervision of an M.D. (I was military medicine). Nowadays one may even get a doctorate degree in Medical Science (P.A.), but never be considered as a doctor. Why do you suppose that is? Sometimes it doesn't matter what we consider ourselves or even what degree we have, it is a polico-legal description. However, I firmly believe I gained much more depth and width of knowledge through the DAOM program than through the MSTOM. After the MS program, I felt like a doctor (as I did as a P.A.), but I wasn't one and had not earned the degree. The piece of paper does mean something in this society, that's just the way it is. Sincerely, Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, MS, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine heylaurag Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:31:28 +0000 Re: Doctorates and Income I have mixed feelings about this topic. I consider myself a doctor. I treat as many health conditions as a doctor and I carry close to the same level of responsibility. And certainly my work is just as challenging. I think that especially if you practice herbs it feels exactly the same as being a doctor. And so even though I don't want to give in to this kind of prideful reaction, I really hate it when my patients treat me like I am on the level of a massage therapist whereas they treat their naturopath with the reverance of a doctor. I often want to say, " my medicine has thousands of years behind it whereas naturopathic medicine is relatively new " . Of course I resist this urge, but its there. From this perspective I like the idea of a doctorate becoming a standard in our profession. However, I also have an absurd level of student loans and I am not paid well enough to justify going back to school for a doctorate. I work full time and usually have a waiting list--so getting a doctorate is not going to increase my income. So realistically I think that the masters level needs to continue to be a valid level to practice from, but that the doctorate should also be an integral part of our profession in order to bring due respect to our work. Chinese Medicine , " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa wrote: > > I am NOT saying that a doctorate is the only way to increase your income or knowledge; I was just saying I personally really valued that educational experience. > The discussion about FTD is getting a bit stale for me. I can see that many different people have a valid perspective and many aspects need to be taken into consideration. > > Regards, > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > angelapfa > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > - > Anne Crowley > Traditional > Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:22 AM > Re: Doctorates and Income > > > > > > Angela, > > I am sure you are a great practitioner from all your sharings on this listserve. I think that is why people come to you. > > My general response to this topic: > > In my own experience, I trippled my income in the last 2 years, and it was not because I got another degree. It was because my confidence in talking to patients grew and the way I managed my practice changed. I make a 6 figure income and work 3.5 days a week, and I am not an insurance provider. I always continue my studies as I did before this shift in my practice. So you could say it is additional education, but in truth it is about confidence in what I am doing and how I am conveying that to patients. > > I am not in favor of the doctorate being a standard in our profession. I think the schooling that is now required puts a lot of people in debt before they even begin practicing. As I saw on another listserve, " Let's start making the Master's degree a stronger degree. " Let's make a bachelors degree a requirement to get into acupuncture school, with a hard look at grades. Of course the school curriculums could use a lot of revision. I don't think throwing on another year or two will change these things. I always thought the Doctorate or Ph.D was about research. Those that want to go on to research and carry that title, can certainly do so. I don't think it is a measure of a better practitioner. > > Respectfully, > > Anne > > Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. > www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com > > - > " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa > " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > > Monday, December 14, 2009 2:45:09 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > Re: Doctorates and Income > > > > I am sharing Don's experience that going back to school and earning a > doctorate was worth it. In my first year out of school I doubled my clients > and tripled my income, although my degree was not in Chinese medicine, it's > in psychology. I would attribute that to 3 aspects 1. ) preselection ( the > practitioners who return to school for their doctorate and those who decide > not too are not the same people, 2.) Common factors of education. You start > to think about yourself and your work differently, you skill set acquires > depth and flexibility 3.) Sellability. In our culture everyone believes that > people with more education, know more. I am the only practitioner with a > doctorate in my town, and it's easy to convince people that that I know > more. Voila - it almost certainly adds up to better income. And, yes, I also > agree with Don that returning to school as a mid-career professional was > extremely rewarding, and the student loans now look like a very small price > to pay. > > Regards, > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > angelapfa > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > - > " Donald Snow " < don83407 > > < Chinese Traditional Medicine > > Sunday, December 13, 2009 8:23 PM > RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > I really did not know what I was doing until about 3 years ago. I had > > been perfecting my MET/integrated medicine methodology and had treated > > about 1000 hours or so without any remuneration. I could not see charging > > a patient when I couldn't guarantee the results. After that initial > > experimentation period I could consistantly (95%+) get resolution of any > > pain, neuropathy, or pathology and decided I would begin charging > > patients. At first I took only cash patients and charged $250 per > > treatment; and I got paid, too. But I noticed I was only getting a > > particular class of patient and felt that what I did should be available > > to all who desired it. (at this time I was practicing in San Diego and > > teaching at PCOM) > > > > > > > > In 2007 I got an opportunity to move back home to Louisiana and I took a > > job offered by an MD. These folks burned me very badly and they stole > > money and they tried to steal my methodology. However, what I learned > > from this is that I could actually bill insurance for my treatments (that > > lesson cost me about $200,000 or more). Thereafter, I teamed up with > > another MD and billed insurance under his/her license; and got paid. I > > also got a contract to service 29 hospitals but it has taken be around 8 > > months to figure out how to bill. I now have that figured out and have > > hired my first AOM practitioner and she has just completed her training > > with me and I will put her in our first hospital. But I have digressed a > > little. > > > > > > > > I was able to bill right at $500,000 my first year working by myself, but > > had to have two assistants helping me. I collected 80% of my billing > > (which is real good, by the way). You must also understand this. The > > reason hospitals do not want acupuncture is that there is no money in it > > at $50 to $80 per treatment. Hospitals are a business and they need to > > make money. When I treat a patient I get a minimum of $150 up to more > > than $400 for some patients. The downside is that it takes me 1 to 2.5 > > hours to treat one patient (now you know why I need assistants trained in > > my copyrighted methodology). I am very stingy in who I show my > > methodology and have a full time lawyer on my staff to take care of > > contracts. I don't give it away. My patients get well in a dramatic and > > profound way; even those with " irreversible " nerve damage. The results > > are immediate and if a patient does not get the promised results, they do > > not pay. Needless to say, I get paid. In the last year I have returned > > money 4 times out of over 3000 patient visits. > > > > > > > > I now have another AOM practitioner working with me and we will see what I > > can bill and collect now; however, it is yet to be seen. > > > > > > > > So folks, that's it in a nut shell. I answered this same question last > > year on this same site and I doubt that I will answer it again. Hope this > > satisfies you. > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac > > > > > > > > P.S. As for the question " Do you use herbs? " The answer is yes. But not > > nearly as often and I know longer use a compounding pharmacy. I use > > teapill/patents. The methodology I use precludes my having to rely on > > herbs as much, but I use them when I must. The patient must get better or > > I don't get paid so I do whatever must be done to get the desired results. > > djs > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > heylaurag > > Mon, 14 Dec 2009 00:32:30 +0000 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Don, With that much education, I suspect you are in a similar position > > as me--LOTS of student loans. I paid for my undergrad plus a masters in > > social work from an expensive ivy league school plus the dual masters in > > acupuncture and herbs with student loans. Then I was dumb enough not to > > start paying on it right after I graduated (actually I couldn't afford > > to). So I also accumulated massive interest. But...I really want to get a > > doctorate! > > > > But I do work in a very deep way with the herbs, so I am not completely > > convinced that a doctorate would educate me more than my own schooling by > > practicing the medicine. Any thoughts on this? Also, how do you see enough > > patients to make that much money if you also practice herbs (which take > > time)? Do you have employees? Do you bill insurance? How much time do you > > spend with each patient? I'd like to learn from you, so I appreciate > > anything that you can share. > > > > Working on taxes this year I am dismayed to discover just how little I > > actually make when I take my student loan payments into consideration. But > > I turn down new patients all the time because I don't feel I have the time > > to see them. So I must be doing something wrong. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Laura > > > > Chinese Medicine , Donald Snow > > <don83407@> wrote: > >> > >> > >> Yes, definitions. Who defines what is being discussed? I practice > >> integral medicine no matter what one may believe. That's what I call it > >> and that is what my patients believe and that's what I do. I don't follow > >> any " man " such a Lonny, Master Tong, etc. I follow my own path in finding > >> the answers to our wonderful medicine and I make it what I will. This is > >> what I do. If I followed a particular man or style, then that's what I > >> would be doing. But I practice Dr. Snow's Acupuncture and Integrated > >> Medical Systems. > >> > >> I make a mid-six figure income doing what I do so I'm doing something > >> right. I went the extra mile and earned the DAOM, MPH, MS, etc. so I am > >> relatively educated. And no matter what anyone says about that degree > >> (esp. those that haven't actually done it), we delved into the classics > >> at a much deeper level that the master's program. I'm a better > >> practitioner for it. And most of all, I have a very high success in > >> treatment rate which is why I have a booming practice. One is a > >> technician until he makes the medicine his own. That applies to martial > >> arts as well. I've seen many so-called masters that were not because they > >> did not make the art a part of themselves. > >> > >> > >> > >> Well, these are only my opinions and I guess we all have one. > >> > >> > >> > >> Sincerely, > >> > >> > >> > >> Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > >> > >> > >> > >> Chinese Medicine > >> johnkokko@ > >> Sun, 13 Dec 2009 06:24:06 -0800 > >> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Yes... we all practice medicine, > >> but " integral " and " integrative " medicine are 2 different birds. > >> > >> Very few people practice " integral " medicine, as Lonny can elaborate on. > >> We all practice some form of " integrative " medicine, because that's what > >> we > >> learned in schools... a combination of many styles derived from 2 > >> millennia > >> of changes. > >> That's why I opted for " integrative Chinese medicine " being the most > >> honest > >> and comprehensive name for what we do. > >> > >> K > >> > >> On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 6:18 AM, Donald Snow <don83407@> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > Actually, what we practice is medicine. What you appear to want defined > >> > is > >> > the style, type, or founding root of what we do. I practice integral > >> > medicine. I apply TCM/OM theory to MET and SCENAR then combine it with > >> > our > >> > TCM using specific methodology. But as f > >> > >> r as my patients are concerned, I practice medicine because they get > >> better > >> > very quickly. Oh semantics... > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Don > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Chinese Medicine > >> > johnkokko@ > >> > Sun, 13 Dec 2009 06:12:13 -0800 > >> > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Global medicine sounds too " global " , > >> > Chinese medicine might sound too " local " . > >> > " Global " ? GCM? > >> > > >> > I actually like calling what we do Chinese medicine, > >> > because it gives credit to the myriad of tribes/clans/villages of > >> > people > >> > who > >> > developed the classics which are the foundation of > >> > Korean/Japanese/Vietnamese/European/American acupuncture and formula > >> > systems. We can break down the word " Chinese " , which is probably not > >> > sufficient to describe these originators, since even today, China > >> > geographically holds over 50 distinct ethnic groups, but it's the best > >> > that > >> > we've got. > >> > > >> > K > >> > > >> > On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 5:51 AM, Donald Snow <don83407@> wrote: > >> > > >> > > > >> > > How about naming our medicine modern " Global Medicine? " > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Chinese Medicine > >> > > Revolution@ > >> > > Sun, 13 Dec 2009 01:18:12 +0000 > >> > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > John, > >> > > > >> > > I'm happy calling it Chinese medicine. But I think the real challenge > >> > > is > >> > to > >> > > find a name that references it's present and future rather than its > >> > > past. > >> > > Many of the most significant advances in the medicine have been made > >> > > in > >> > the > >> > > West in the last 60 years. It's a global medicine now being practiced > >> > > according to many different value systems across cultures at > >> > > different > >> > > levels of development. It's interesting to consider who we are and > >> > > what > >> > we > >> > > are really doing. Most of us aren't, in fact, practicing " Chinese " > >> > medicine. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 Hello Don: Can you share what was your medical background/degrees/licenses to be a P.A.? thanks, david Chinese Medicine , Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: > > > I was a P.A. (Physician's Assistant) for over 22 years and did everything from surgery to writing prescriptions without the supervision of an M.D. (I was military medicine). Nowadays one may even get a doctorate degree in Medical Science (P.A.), but never be considered as a doctor. Why do you suppose that is? > > > > Sometimes it doesn't matter what we consider ourselves or even what degree we have, it is a polico-legal description. However, I firmly believe I gained much more depth and width of knowledge through the DAOM program than through the MSTOM. After the MS program, I felt like a doctor (as I did as a P.A.), but I wasn't one and had not earned the degree. The piece of paper does mean something in this society, that's just the way it is. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, MS, L.Ac. > > > > Chinese Medicine > heylaurag > Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:31:28 +0000 > Re: Doctorates and Income > > > > > > I have mixed feelings about this topic. I consider myself a doctor. I treat as many health conditions as a doctor and I carry close to the same level of responsibility. And certainly my work is just as challenging. I think that especially if you practice herbs it feels exactly the same as being a doctor. And so even though I don't want to give in to this kind of prideful reaction, I really hate it when my patients treat me like I am on the level of a massage therapist whereas they treat their naturopath with the reverance of a doctor. I often want to say, " my medicine has thousands of years behind it whereas naturopathic medicine is relatively new " . Of course I resist this urge, but its there. From this perspective I like the idea of a doctorate becoming a standard in our profession. > > However, I also have an absurd level of student loans and I am not paid well enough to justify going back to school for a doctorate. I work full time and usually have a waiting list--so getting a doctorate is not going to increase my income. > > So realistically I think that the masters level needs to continue to be a valid level to practice from, but that the doctorate should also be an integral part of our profession in order to bring due respect to our work. > > Chinese Medicine , " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa@> wrote: > > > > I am NOT saying that a doctorate is the only way to increase your income or knowledge; I was just saying I personally really valued that educational experience. > > The discussion about FTD is getting a bit stale for me. I can see that many different people have a valid perspective and many aspects need to be taken into consideration. > > > > Regards, > > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > > > angelapfa@ > > > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > > - > > Anne Crowley > > Traditional > > Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:22 AM > > Re: Doctorates and Income > > > > > > > > > > > > Angela, > > > > I am sure you are a great practitioner from all your sharings on this listserve. I think that is why people come to you. > > > > My general response to this topic: > > > > In my own experience, I trippled my income in the last 2 years, and it was not because I got another degree. It was because my confidence in talking to patients grew and the way I managed my practice changed. I make a 6 figure income and work 3.5 days a week, and I am not an insurance provider. I always continue my studies as I did before this shift in my practice. So you could say it is additional education, but in truth it is about confidence in what I am doing and how I am conveying that to patients. > > > > I am not in favor of the doctorate being a standard in our profession. I think the schooling that is now required puts a lot of people in debt before they even begin practicing. As I saw on another listserve, " Let's start making the Master's degree a stronger degree. " Let's make a bachelors degree a requirement to get into acupuncture school, with a hard look at grades. Of course the school curriculums could use a lot of revision. I don't think throwing on another year or two will change these things. I always thought the Doctorate or Ph.D was about research. Those that want to go on to research and carry that title, can certainly do so. I don't think it is a measure of a better practitioner. > > > > Respectfully, > > > > Anne > > > > Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. > > www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com > > > > - > > " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa@> > > " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > > > Monday, December 14, 2009 2:45:09 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > > Re: Doctorates and Income > > > > > > > > I am sharing Don's experience that going back to school and earning a > > doctorate was worth it. In my first year out of school I doubled my clients > > and tripled my income, although my degree was not in Chinese medicine, it's > > in psychology. I would attribute that to 3 aspects 1. ) preselection ( the > > practitioners who return to school for their doctorate and those who decide > > not too are not the same people, 2.) Common factors of education. You start > > to think about yourself and your work differently, you skill set acquires > > depth and flexibility 3.) Sellability. In our culture everyone believes that > > people with more education, know more. I am the only practitioner with a > > doctorate in my town, and it's easy to convince people that that I know > > more. Voila - it almost certainly adds up to better income. And, yes, I also > > agree with Don that returning to school as a mid-career professional was > > extremely rewarding, and the student loans now look like a very small price > > to pay. > > > > Regards, > > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > > > angelapfa@ > > > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > > - > > " Donald Snow " < don83407@ > > > < Chinese Traditional Medicine > > > Sunday, December 13, 2009 8:23 PM > > RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > I really did not know what I was doing until about 3 years ago. I had > > > been perfecting my MET/integrated medicine methodology and had treated > > > about 1000 hours or so without any remuneration. I could not see charging > > > a patient when I couldn't guarantee the results. After that initial > > > experimentation period I could consistantly (95%+) get resolution of any > > > pain, neuropathy, or pathology and decided I would begin charging > > > patients. At first I took only cash patients and charged $250 per > > > treatment; and I got paid, too. But I noticed I was only getting a > > > particular class of patient and felt that what I did should be available > > > to all who desired it. (at this time I was practicing in San Diego and > > > teaching at PCOM) > > > > > > > > > > > > In 2007 I got an opportunity to move back home to Louisiana and I took a > > > job offered by an MD. These folks burned me very badly and they stole > > > money and they tried to steal my methodology. However, what I learned > > > from this is that I could actually bill insurance for my treatments (that > > > lesson cost me about $200,000 or more). Thereafter, I teamed up with > > > another MD and billed insurance under his/her license; and got paid. I > > > also got a contract to service 29 hospitals but it has taken be around 8 > > > months to figure out how to bill. I now have that figured out and have > > > hired my first AOM practitioner and she has just completed her training > > > with me and I will put her in our first hospital. But I have digressed a > > > little. > > > > > > > > > > > > I was able to bill right at $500,000 my first year working by myself, but > > > had to have two assistants helping me. I collected 80% of my billing > > > (which is real good, by the way). You must also understand this. The > > > reason hospitals do not want acupuncture is that there is no money in it > > > at $50 to $80 per treatment. Hospitals are a business and they need to > > > make money. When I treat a patient I get a minimum of $150 up to more > > > than $400 for some patients. The downside is that it takes me 1 to 2.5 > > > hours to treat one patient (now you know why I need assistants trained in > > > my copyrighted methodology). I am very stingy in who I show my > > > methodology and have a full time lawyer on my staff to take care of > > > contracts. I don't give it away. My patients get well in a dramatic and > > > profound way; even those with " irreversible " nerve damage. The results > > > are immediate and if a patient does not get the promised results, they do > > > not pay. Needless to say, I get paid. In the last year I have returned > > > money 4 times out of over 3000 patient visits. > > > > > > > > > > > > I now have another AOM practitioner working with me and we will see what I > > > can bill and collect now; however, it is yet to be seen. > > > > > > > > > > > > So folks, that's it in a nut shell. I answered this same question last > > > year on this same site and I doubt that I will answer it again. Hope this > > > satisfies you. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S. As for the question " Do you use herbs? " The answer is yes. But not > > > nearly as often and I know longer use a compounding pharmacy. I use > > > teapill/patents. The methodology I use precludes my having to rely on > > > herbs as much, but I use them when I must. The patient must get better or > > > I don't get paid so I do whatever must be done to get the desired results. > > > djs > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > heylaurag@ > > > Mon, 14 Dec 2009 00:32:30 +0000 > > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Don, With that much education, I suspect you are in a similar position > > > as me--LOTS of student loans. I paid for my undergrad plus a masters in > > > social work from an expensive ivy league school plus the dual masters in > > > acupuncture and herbs with student loans. Then I was dumb enough not to > > > start paying on it right after I graduated (actually I couldn't afford > > > to). So I also accumulated massive interest. But...I really want to get a > > > doctorate! > > > > > > But I do work in a very deep way with the herbs, so I am not completely > > > convinced that a doctorate would educate me more than my own schooling by > > > practicing the medicine. Any thoughts on this? Also, how do you see enough > > > patients to make that much money if you also practice herbs (which take > > > time)? Do you have employees? Do you bill insurance? How much time do you > > > spend with each patient? I'd like to learn from you, so I appreciate > > > anything that you can share. > > > > > > Working on taxes this year I am dismayed to discover just how little I > > > actually make when I take my student loan payments into consideration. But > > > I turn down new patients all the time because I don't feel I have the time > > > to see them. So I must be doing something wrong. > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , Donald Snow > > > <don83407@> wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> Yes, definitions. Who defines what is being discussed? I practice > > >> integral medicine no matter what one may believe. That's what I call it > > >> and that is what my patients believe and that's what I do. I don't follow > > >> any " man " such a Lonny, Master Tong, etc. I follow my own path in finding > > >> the answers to our wonderful medicine and I make it what I will. This is > > >> what I do. If I followed a particular man or style, then that's what I > > >> would be doing. But I practice Dr. Snow's Acupuncture and Integrated > > >> Medical Systems. > > >> > > >> I make a mid-six figure income doing what I do so I'm doing something > > >> right. I went the extra mile and earned the DAOM, MPH, MS, etc. so I am > > >> relatively educated. And no matter what anyone says about that degree > > >> (esp. those that haven't actually done it), we delved into the classics > > >> at a much deeper level that the master's program. I'm a better > > >> practitioner for it. And most of all, I have a very high success in > > >> treatment rate which is why I have a booming practice. One is a > > >> technician until he makes the medicine his own. That applies to martial > > >> arts as well. I've seen many so-called masters that were not because they > > >> did not make the art a part of themselves. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Well, these are only my opinions and I guess we all have one. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Sincerely, > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Chinese Medicine > > >> johnkokko@ > > >> Sun, 13 Dec 2009 06:24:06 -0800 > > >> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Yes... we all practice medicine, > > >> but " integral " and " integrative " medicine are 2 different birds. > > >> > > >> Very few people practice " integral " medicine, as Lonny can elaborate on. > > >> We all practice some form of " integrative " medicine, because that's what > > >> we > > >> learned in schools... a combination of many styles derived from 2 > > >> millennia > > >> of changes. > > >> That's why I opted for " integrative Chinese medicine " being the most > > >> honest > > >> and comprehensive name for what we do. > > >> > > >> K > > >> > > >> On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 6:18 AM, Donald Snow <don83407@> wrote: > > >> > > >> > > > >> > Actually, what we practice is medicine. What you appear to want defined > > >> > is > > >> > the style, type, or founding root of what we do. I practice integral > > >> > medicine. I apply TCM/OM theory to MET and SCENAR then combine it with > > >> > our > > >> > TCM using specific methodology. But as f > > >> > > >> r as my patients are concerned, I practice medicine because they get > > >> better > > >> > very quickly. Oh semantics... > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Don > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Chinese Medicine > > >> > johnkokko@ > > >> > Sun, 13 Dec 2009 06:12:13 -0800 > > >> > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Global medicine sounds too " global " , > > >> > Chinese medicine might sound too " local " . > > >> > " Global " ? GCM? > > >> > > > >> > I actually like calling what we do Chinese medicine, > > >> > because it gives credit to the myriad of tribes/clans/villages of > > >> > people > > >> > who > > >> > developed the classics which are the foundation of > > >> > Korean/Japanese/Vietnamese/European/American acupuncture and formula > > >> > systems. We can break down the word " Chinese " , which is probably not > > >> > sufficient to describe these originators, since even today, China > > >> > geographically holds over 50 distinct ethnic groups, but it's the best > > >> > that > > >> > we've got. > > >> > > > >> > K > > >> > > > >> > On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 5:51 AM, Donald Snow <don83407@> wrote: > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > How about naming our medicine modern " Global Medicine? " > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > Chinese Medicine > > >> > > Revolution@ > > >> > > Sun, 13 Dec 2009 01:18:12 +0000 > > >> > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > John, > > >> > > > > >> > > I'm happy calling it Chinese medicine. But I think the real challenge > > >> > > is > > >> > to > > >> > > find a name that references it's present and future rather than its > > >> > > past. > > >> > > Many of the most significant advances in the medicine have been made > > >> > > in > > >> > the > > >> > > West in the last 60 years. It's a global medicine now being practiced > > >> > > according to many different value systems across cultures at > > >> > > different > > >> > > levels of development. It's interesting to consider who we are and > > >> > > what > > >> > we > > >> > > are really doing. Most of us aren't, in fact, practicing " Chinese " > > >> > medicine. > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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