Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Hi, So let me first say what my biggest question is: if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help for a poisoned cat please let me know. It seems to be a neurotoxin. It was probably ingested several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. I have a very sick 10 month old kitty named Simba and it is not known what is wrong. The frightening thing is that we lost a 4 year old cat, Alex, to a mysterious illness a year and a half ago. We took Alex to a lot of different vets and nobody knew what was wrong. Tests all came back normal. It started as what appeared to be a back injury--he was walking funny in his hind end. Then a few days later we found him paralyzed and having seizures. He died a few days later. Simba's symptoms are a little different but similar enough to make me think that the odds are good that there is a connection between the two. He started out vomiting here and there a few days ago. Then last night he seemed lethargic and was whining to us. Today we took him to the vet and he does not have a fever and his bowels are not impacted. Basically the vet couldn't find anything to tell us what might be wrong. He was given fluids, a broad spectrum antibiotic, and they took labs which we will hear the results of tomorrow. Tonight after going to the vet he is even worse. He's so lethargic we can't tell if he is losing control of his hind quarters or if he's just too tired to sit up or stand. If we pick him up and set him down he takes a couple hunched-over steps and lays down. He does have a history of the herpes infection that cats get in their eyes. He was on a lot of antibiotics during his first 6 months, but finally his eyes seem ok. With Alex, they tried many different antibiotics along with steroids. When nothing was working I started to work with herbs, but since I had no idea what was wrong I was shooting in the dark. Sometimes an hour after he took the herbs he would gain some movement back and start to be able to wobble, but an hour later he would be paralyzed again. Now that it might be happening again I am more convinced than ever that there must be a poison that they both got into. We did find some fertilizer in the shed that had fallen off the shelf and was open, and I know fertilizer is toxic to animals. So my biggest question is: I would like to know if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help in a situation where an animal has ingested a poison several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Also, the steroids did not help Alex and may have made him worse. But I know that sometimes they can do wonders. So if anyone has knowledge/experience to share whether we should try that path or not please let me know. After the Alex died one vet mentioned that maybe the steroids would have worked in a different dose, so it made me wonder if I should consider using them with Simba. Thanks for any help or ideas, Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 We just got some labs back. His kidney numbers are 12 and they should be something like 3. This is different from Alex. But it is a lethal level. Could be antifreeze or an infection. Ba Zheng Tang?? , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > Hi, > > So let me first say what my biggest question is: if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help for a poisoned cat please let me know. It seems to be a neurotoxin. It was probably ingested several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or > if someone has ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > I have a very sick 10 month old kitty named Simba and it is not known what is wrong. The frightening thing is that we lost a 4 year old cat, Alex, to a mysterious illness a year and a half ago. We took Alex to a lot of different vets and nobody knew what was wrong. Tests all came back normal. It started as > what appeared to be a back injury--he was walking funny in his hind end. Then a few days later we found him paralyzed and having seizures. He died a few days later. > > Simba's symptoms are a little different but similar enough to make me think that the odds are good that there is a connection between the two. He started out vomiting here and there a few days ago. Then last night he seemed lethargic and was whining to us. Today we took him to the vet and he does not have a fever and his bowels are not impacted. Basically the vet couldn't find anything to tell us what might be wrong. He was given fluids, a broad spectrum antibiotic, > and they took labs which we will hear the results of tomorrow. Tonight after going to the vet he is even worse. He's so lethargic we can't tell if he is losing control of his hind quarters or if he's just too tired to sit up or stand. If we pick him up and set him down he takes a couple hunched-over steps and lays down. Tonight we are noticing him twitching, which Alex did. So the neurological issue that was effecting Alex is likely. > > He does have a history of the herpes infection that cats get in their eyes. He was on a lot of antibiotics during his first 6 months, but finally his eyes seem ok. > > With Alex, they tried many different antibiotics along with steroids. When nothing was working I started to work with herbs, but since I had no idea what was wrong I was shooting in the dark. Sometimes an hour after he took the herbs he would gain some movement back and start to be able to wobble, but an hour later he would be paralyzed again. > > Now that it might be happening again I am more convinced than ever that there must be a poison that they both got into. We did find some fertilizer in the shed that had fallen off the shelf and was open, and I know fertilizer is toxic to animals. > > So my biggest question is: I would like to know if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help in a situation where an animal has ingested a poison several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the > category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Also, the steroids did not help Alex and may have made him worse. But I know that sometimes they can do wonders. So if anyone has knowledge/experience to share whether we should try that path or not please let me know. After the Alex died one vet mentioned that maybe the steroids would have worked in a different > dose, so it made me wonder if I should consider using them with Simba. > > Thanks for any help or ideas, > > Laura > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 What I meant to say is that Alex had totally normal labs--they couldn't find anything to indicate what was wrong with him. So even though this is a potentially lethal number I'm relieved that at least with Simba they have something to go by. , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > Hi, > > So let me first say what my biggest question is: if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help for a poisoned cat please let me know. It seems to be a neurotoxin. It was probably ingested several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or > if someone has ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > I have a very sick 10 month old kitty named Simba and it is not known what is wrong. The frightening thing is that we lost a 4 year old cat, Alex, to a mysterious illness a year and a half ago. We took Alex to a lot of different vets and nobody knew what was wrong. Tests all came back normal. It started as > what appeared to be a back injury--he was walking funny in his hind end. Then a few days later we found him paralyzed and having seizures. He died a few days later. > > Simba's symptoms are a little different but similar enough to make me think that the odds are good that there is a connection between the two. He started out vomiting here and there a few days ago. Then last night he seemed lethargic and was whining to us. Today we took him to the vet and he does not have a fever and his bowels are not impacted. Basically the vet couldn't find anything to tell us what might be wrong. He was given fluids, a broad spectrum antibiotic, > and they took labs which we will hear the results of tomorrow. Tonight after going to the vet he is even worse. He's so lethargic we can't tell if he is losing control of his hind quarters or if he's just too tired to sit up or stand. If we pick him up and set him down he takes a couple hunched-over steps and lays down. Tonight we are noticing him twitching, which Alex did. So the neurological issue that was effecting Alex is likely. > > He does have a history of the herpes infection that cats get in their eyes. He was on a lot of antibiotics during his first 6 months, but finally his eyes seem ok. > > With Alex, they tried many different antibiotics along with steroids. When nothing was working I started to work with herbs, but since I had no idea what was wrong I was shooting in the dark. Sometimes an hour after he took the herbs he would gain some movement back and start to be able to wobble, but an hour later he would be paralyzed again. > > Now that it might be happening again I am more convinced than ever that there must be a poison that they both got into. We did find some fertilizer in the shed that had fallen off the shelf and was open, and I know fertilizer is toxic to animals. > > So my biggest question is: I would like to know if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help in a situation where an animal has ingested a poison several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the > category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Also, the steroids did not help Alex and may have made him worse. But I know that sometimes they can do wonders. So if anyone has knowledge/experience to share whether we should try that path or not please let me know. After the Alex died one vet mentioned that maybe the steroids would have worked in a different > dose, so it made me wonder if I should consider using them with Simba. > > Thanks for any help or ideas, > > Laura > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 I thought I'd go ahead and add that we are now seeing him twitch, so its looking more and more similar to the neurological issues that Alex had. Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > Hi, > > So let me first say what my biggest question is: if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help for a poisoned cat please let me know. It seems to be a neurotoxin. It was probably ingested several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > I have a very sick 10 month old kitty named Simba and it is not known what is wrong. The frightening thing is that we lost a 4 year old cat, Alex, to a mysterious illness a year and a half ago. We took Alex to a lot of different vets and nobody knew what was wrong. Tests all came back normal. It started as what appeared to be a back injury--he was walking funny in his hind end. Then a few days later we found him paralyzed and having seizures. He died a few days later. > > Simba's symptoms are a little different but similar enough to make me think that the odds are good that there is a connection between the two. He started out vomiting here and there a few days ago. Then last night he seemed lethargic and was whining to us. Today we took him to the vet and he does not have a fever and his bowels are not impacted. Basically the vet couldn't find anything to tell us what might be wrong. He was given fluids, a broad spectrum antibiotic, and they took labs which we will hear the results of tomorrow. Tonight after going to the vet he is even worse. He's so lethargic we can't tell if he is losing control of his hind quarters or if he's just too tired to sit up or stand. If we pick him up and set him down he takes a couple hunched-over steps and lays down. > > He does have a history of the herpes infection that cats get in their eyes. He was on a lot of antibiotics during his first 6 months, but finally his eyes seem ok. > > With Alex, they tried many different antibiotics along with steroids. When nothing was working I started to work with herbs, but since I had no idea what was wrong I was shooting in the dark. Sometimes an hour after he took the herbs he would gain some movement back and start to be able to wobble, but an hour later he would be paralyzed again. > > Now that it might be happening again I am more convinced than ever that there must be a poison that they both got into. We did find some fertilizer in the shed that had fallen off the shelf and was open, and I know fertilizer is toxic to animals. > > So my biggest question is: I would like to know if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help in a situation where an animal has ingested a poison several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Also, the steroids did not help Alex and may have made him worse. But I know that sometimes they can do wonders. So if anyone has knowledge/experience to share whether we should try that path or not please let me know. After the Alex died one vet mentioned that maybe the steroids would have worked in a different dose, so it made me wonder if I should consider using them with Simba. > > Thanks for any help or ideas, > > Laura > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Another update: Along with high creatine levels (12) his potassium levels are very high and he has zero urine output despite receiving fluids last night. Apparently these are all very bad signs for his prognosis. , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > What I meant to say is that Alex had totally normal labs--they couldn't find anything to indicate what was wrong with him. So even though this is a potentially lethal number I'm relieved that at least with Simba they have something to go by. > > , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > So let me first say what my biggest question is: if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help for a poisoned cat please let me know. It seems to be a neurotoxin. It was probably ingested several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or > > if someone has ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > > > I have a very sick 10 month old kitty named Simba and it is not known what is wrong. The frightening thing is that we lost a 4 year old cat, Alex, to a mysterious illness a year and a half ago. We took Alex to a lot of different vets and nobody knew what was wrong. Tests all came back normal. It started as > > what appeared to be a back injury--he was walking funny in his hind end. Then a few days later we found him paralyzed and having seizures. He died a few days later. > > > > Simba's symptoms are a little different but similar enough to make me think that the odds are good that there is a connection between the two. He started out vomiting here and there a few days ago. Then last night he seemed lethargic and was whining to us. Today we took him to the vet and he does not have a fever and his bowels are not impacted. Basically the vet couldn't find anything to tell us what might be wrong. He was given fluids, a broad spectrum antibiotic, > > and they took labs which we will hear the results of tomorrow. Tonight after going to the vet he is even worse. He's so lethargic we can't tell if he is losing control of his hind quarters or if he's just too tired to sit up or stand. If we pick him up and set him down he takes a couple hunched-over steps and lays down. Tonight we are noticing him twitching, which Alex did. So the neurological issue that was effecting Alex is likely. > > > > He does have a history of the herpes infection that cats get in their eyes. He was on a lot of antibiotics during his first 6 months, but finally his eyes seem ok. > > > > With Alex, they tried many different antibiotics along with steroids. When nothing was working I started to work with herbs, but since I had no idea what was wrong I was shooting in the dark. Sometimes an hour after he took the herbs he would gain some movement back and start to be able to wobble, but an hour later he would be paralyzed again. > > > > Now that it might be happening again I am more convinced than ever that there must be a poison that they both got into. We did find some fertilizer in the shed that had fallen off the shelf and was open, and I know fertilizer is toxic to animals. > > > > So my biggest question is: I would like to know if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help in a situation where an animal has ingested a poison several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the > > category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Also, the steroids did not help Alex and may have made him worse. But I know that sometimes they can do wonders. So if anyone has knowledge/experience to share whether we should try that path or not please let me know. After the Alex died one vet mentioned that maybe the steroids would have worked in a different > > dose, so it made me wonder if I should consider using them with Simba. > > > > Thanks for any help or ideas, > > > > Laura > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 The lack of urine output indicates that his kidneys are completely shutting down. I wonder about going ahead and using acupuncture/moxa on kidney points like UB 23. But if this is an excess condition--eg: if he has eaten something poisonous, wouldn't that run the risk of making him worse? Thoughts anyone? , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > Hi, > > So let me first say what my biggest question is: if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help for a poisoned cat please let me know. It seems to be a neurotoxin. It was probably ingested several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or > if someone has ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > I have a very sick 10 month old kitty named Simba and it is not known what is wrong. The frightening thing is that we lost a 4 year old cat, Alex, to a mysterious illness a year and a half ago. We took Alex to a lot of different vets and nobody knew what was wrong. Tests all came back normal. It started as > what appeared to be a back injury--he was walking funny in his hind end. Then a few days later we found him paralyzed and having seizures. He died a few days later. > > Simba's symptoms are a little different but similar enough to make me think that the odds are good that there is a connection between the two. He started out vomiting here and there a few days ago. Then last night he seemed lethargic and was whining to us. Today we took him to the vet and he does not have a fever and his bowels are not impacted. Basically the vet couldn't find anything to tell us what might be wrong. He was given fluids, a broad spectrum antibiotic, > and they took labs which we will hear the results of tomorrow. Tonight after going to the vet he is even worse. He's so lethargic we can't tell if he is losing control of his hind quarters or if he's just too tired to sit up or stand. If we pick him up and set him down he takes a couple hunched-over steps and lays down. Tonight we are noticing him twitching, which Alex did. So the neurological issue that was effecting Alex is likely. > > He does have a history of the herpes infection that cats get in their eyes. He was on a lot of antibiotics during his first 6 months, but finally his eyes seem ok. > > With Alex, they tried many different antibiotics along with steroids. When nothing was working I started to work with herbs, but since I had no idea what was wrong I was shooting in the dark. Sometimes an hour after he took the herbs he would gain some movement back and start to be able to wobble, but an hour later he would be paralyzed again. > > Now that it might be happening again I am more convinced than ever that there must be a poison that they both got into. We did find some fertilizer in the shed that had fallen off the shelf and was open, and I know fertilizer is toxic to animals. > > So my biggest question is: I would like to know if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help in a situation where an animal has ingested a poison several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the > category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Also, the steroids did not help Alex and may have made him worse. But I know that sometimes they can do wonders. So if anyone has knowledge/experience to share whether we should try that path or not please let me know. After the Alex died one vet mentioned that maybe the steroids would have worked in a different > dose, so it made me wonder if I should consider using them with Simba. > > Thanks for any help or ideas, > > Laura > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Laura, I met this fellow about 14 years ago here in Tucson. I know that he studied Chinese herbs to at least the degree that NCCAOM diplomates do. I don't know where you are but I'm thinking he might be able to provide a reference to a vet near you and/or give you some leads on diagnosis. Randy D. Aronson, VMD PAWS - Partners in Animal Wellness 300 East River Road | Tucson, AZ 85704 520-395-3309 Joe (Werecat) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Wonderful! Anything would help because at this point we have nothing. Our vet has basically said nothing is going to work from their end. I'm about to give him Wu Ling San plus Gan Cao for its use in relieving toxicity. Plus digestives since he has been vomiting. , jlb wrote: > > Laura, > > I met this fellow about 14 years ago here in Tucson. I know that he studied Chinese herbs to at least the degree that NCCAOM diplomates do. > I don't know where you are but I'm thinking he might be able to provide a reference to a vet near you and/or give you some leads on diagnosis. > > Randy D. Aronson, VMD > PAWS - Partners in Animal Wellness > 300 East River Road | Tucson, AZ 85704 > 520-395-3309 > > > Joe (Werecat) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 We just got some labs back on Simba. His kidney numbers are 12 and they should be something like 3. This is different from Alex--all of his labs were totally normal. Which is relieving, but it is a lethal level. Could be antifreeze or an infection. Ba Zheng Tang?? Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > I thought I'd go ahead and add that we are now seeing him twitch, so its looking more and more similar to the neurological issues that Alex had. > > Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > So let me first say what my biggest question is: if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help for a poisoned cat please let me know. It seems to be a neurotoxin. It was probably ingested several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > > > I have a very sick 10 month old kitty named Simba and it is not known what is wrong. The frightening thing is that we lost a 4 year old cat, Alex, to a mysterious illness a year and a half ago. We took Alex to a lot of different vets and nobody knew what was wrong. Tests all came back normal. It started as what appeared to be a back injury--he was walking funny in his hind end. Then a few days later we found him paralyzed and having seizures. He died a few days later. > > > > Simba's symptoms are a little different but similar enough to make me think that the odds are good that there is a connection between the two. He started out vomiting here and there a few days ago. Then last night he seemed lethargic and was whining to us. Today we took him to the vet and he does not have a fever and his bowels are not impacted. Basically the vet couldn't find anything to tell us what might be wrong. He was given fluids, a broad spectrum antibiotic, and they took labs which we will hear the results of tomorrow. Tonight after going to the vet he is even worse. He's so lethargic we can't tell if he is losing control of his hind quarters or if he's just too tired to sit up or stand. If we pick him up and set him down he takes a couple hunched-over steps and lays down. > > > > He does have a history of the herpes infection that cats get in their eyes. He was on a lot of antibiotics during his first 6 months, but finally his eyes seem ok. > > > > With Alex, they tried many different antibiotics along with steroids. When nothing was working I started to work with herbs, but since I had no idea what was wrong I was shooting in the dark. Sometimes an hour after he took the herbs he would gain some movement back and start to be able to wobble, but an hour later he would be paralyzed again. > > > > Now that it might be happening again I am more convinced than ever that there must be a poison that they both got into. We did find some fertilizer in the shed that had fallen off the shelf and was open, and I know fertilizer is toxic to animals. > > > > So my biggest question is: I would like to know if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help in a situation where an animal has ingested a poison several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Also, the steroids did not help Alex and may have made him worse. But I know that sometimes they can do wonders. So if anyone has knowledge/experience to share whether we should try that path or not please let me know. After the Alex died one vet mentioned that maybe the steroids would have worked in a different dose, so it made me wonder if I should consider using them with Simba. > > > > Thanks for any help or ideas, > > > > Laura > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Along with high creatine levels (12) his potassium levels are very high and he has zero urine output despite receiving fluids last night. Apparently these are all very bad signs for his prognosis. Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > I thought I'd go ahead and add that we are now seeing him twitch, so its looking more and more similar to the neurological issues that Alex had. > > Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > So let me first say what my biggest question is: if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help for a poisoned cat please let me know. It seems to be a neurotoxin. It was probably ingested several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > > > I have a very sick 10 month old kitty named Simba and it is not known what is wrong. The frightening thing is that we lost a 4 year old cat, Alex, to a mysterious illness a year and a half ago. We took Alex to a lot of different vets and nobody knew what was wrong. Tests all came back normal. It started as what appeared to be a back injury--he was walking funny in his hind end. Then a few days later we found him paralyzed and having seizures. He died a few days later. > > > > Simba's symptoms are a little different but similar enough to make me think that the odds are good that there is a connection between the two. He started out vomiting here and there a few days ago. Then last night he seemed lethargic and was whining to us. Today we took him to the vet and he does not have a fever and his bowels are not impacted. Basically the vet couldn't find anything to tell us what might be wrong. He was given fluids, a broad spectrum antibiotic, and they took labs which we will hear the results of tomorrow. Tonight after going to the vet he is even worse. He's so lethargic we can't tell if he is losing control of his hind quarters or if he's just too tired to sit up or stand. If we pick him up and set him down he takes a couple hunched-over steps and lays down. > > > > He does have a history of the herpes infection that cats get in their eyes. He was on a lot of antibiotics during his first 6 months, but finally his eyes seem ok. > > > > With Alex, they tried many different antibiotics along with steroids. When nothing was working I started to work with herbs, but since I had no idea what was wrong I was shooting in the dark. Sometimes an hour after he took the herbs he would gain some movement back and start to be able to wobble, but an hour later he would be paralyzed again. > > > > Now that it might be happening again I am more convinced than ever that there must be a poison that they both got into. We did find some fertilizer in the shed that had fallen off the shelf and was open, and I know fertilizer is toxic to animals. > > > > So my biggest question is: I would like to know if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help in a situation where an animal has ingested a poison several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Also, the steroids did not help Alex and may have made him worse. But I know that sometimes they can do wonders. So if anyone has knowledge/experience to share whether we should try that path or not please let me know. After the Alex died one vet mentioned that maybe the steroids would have worked in a different dose, so it made me wonder if I should consider using them with Simba. > > > > Thanks for any help or ideas, > > > > Laura > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 The lack of urine output indicates that his kidneys are shutting down. I wonder if I should go ahead and do moxa on his UB 23 area. But if the root of the problem is some sort of poison or toxin I wonder if that might make it worse since a poison would be an excess condition? Thoughts anyone? Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > Along with high creatine levels (12) his potassium levels are very high and he has zero urine output despite receiving fluids last night. Apparently these are all very bad signs for his prognosis. > > > > Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > I thought I'd go ahead and add that we are now seeing him twitch, so its looking more and more similar to the neurological issues that Alex had. > > > > Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > So let me first say what my biggest question is: if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help for a poisoned cat please let me know. It seems to be a neurotoxin. It was probably ingested several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > > I have a very sick 10 month old kitty named Simba and it is not known what is wrong. The frightening thing is that we lost a 4 year old cat, Alex, to a mysterious illness a year and a half ago. We took Alex to a lot of different vets and nobody knew what was wrong. Tests all came back normal. It started as what appeared to be a back injury--he was walking funny in his hind end. Then a few days later we found him paralyzed and having seizures. He died a few days later. > > > > > > Simba's symptoms are a little different but similar enough to make me think that the odds are good that there is a connection between the two. He started out vomiting here and there a few days ago. Then last night he seemed lethargic and was whining to us. Today we took him to the vet and he does not have a fever and his bowels are not impacted. Basically the vet couldn't find anything to tell us what might be wrong. He was given fluids, a broad spectrum antibiotic, and they took labs which we will hear the results of tomorrow. Tonight after going to the vet he is even worse. He's so lethargic we can't tell if he is losing control of his hind quarters or if he's just too tired to sit up or stand. If we pick him up and set him down he takes a couple hunched-over steps and lays down. > > > > > > He does have a history of the herpes infection that cats get in their eyes. He was on a lot of antibiotics during his first 6 months, but finally his eyes seem ok. > > > > > > With Alex, they tried many different antibiotics along with steroids. When nothing was working I started to work with herbs, but since I had no idea what was wrong I was shooting in the dark. Sometimes an hour after he took the herbs he would gain some movement back and start to be able to wobble, but an hour later he would be paralyzed again. > > > > > > Now that it might be happening again I am more convinced than ever that there must be a poison that they both got into. We did find some fertilizer in the shed that had fallen off the shelf and was open, and I know fertilizer is toxic to animals. > > > > > > So my biggest question is: I would like to know if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help in a situation where an animal has ingested a poison several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Also, the steroids did not help Alex and may have made him worse. But I know that sometimes they can do wonders. So if anyone has knowledge/experience to share whether we should try that path or not please let me know. After the Alex died one vet mentioned that maybe the steroids would have worked in a different dose, so it made me wonder if I should consider using them with Simba. > > > > > > Thanks for any help or ideas, > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Although I'm a certified veterinary acupuncturist, I don't feel qualified to recommend any particular acupuncture points, herbs etc. But having been a feline only vet for 25 years, I am experienced enough to say that I have rarely and I mean rarely seen any cat have kidneys shut down and not produce urine unless they have had chronic kidney disease for a long time. And as far as toxins are concerned, cats are such fastidious eaters that they rarely eat toxic things unless they catch rodents who have ingested poison. In 25 years, I have yet to see a case of antifreeze toxicity though of course it does happen. And a potassium that high suggests to me that in a cat this young, the problem may not be that he has been unable to produce urine but that he cannot pass it. So at the risk of offending your vet, I would like to ask if anyone has checked his bladder to see if it is greatly enlarged, that urine can be expressed or tried to pass a urethral catheter. Regards, Jennifer On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 1:09 PM, heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: > > > The lack of urine output indicates that his kidneys are shutting down. I > wonder if I should go ahead and do moxa on his UB 23 area. But if the root > of the problem is some sort of poison or toxin I wonder if that might make > it worse since a poison would be an excess condition? Thoughts anyone? > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > > > Along with high creatine levels (12) his potassium levels are very high > and he has zero urine output despite receiving fluids last night. Apparently > these are all very bad signs for his prognosis. > > > > > > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > " heylaurag " <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > > > I thought I'd go ahead and add that we are now seeing him twitch, so > its looking more and more similar to the neurological issues that Alex had. > > > > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > " heylaurag " <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > So let me first say what my biggest question is: if there is a > protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help for a poisoned cat please > let me know. It seems to be a neurotoxin. It was probably ingested several > days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to > animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience > with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the category of > herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? > Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the > orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > > > > I have a very sick 10 month old kitty named Simba and it is not known > what is wrong. The frightening thing is that we lost a 4 year old cat, Alex, > to a mysterious illness a year and a half ago. We took Alex to a lot of > different vets and nobody knew what was wrong. Tests all came back normal. > It started as what appeared to be a back injury--he was walking funny in his > hind end. Then a few days later we found him paralyzed and having seizures. > He died a few days later. > > > > > > > > Simba's symptoms are a little different but similar enough to make me > think that the odds are good that there is a connection between the two. He > started out vomiting here and there a few days ago. Then last night he > seemed lethargic and was whining to us. Today we took him to the vet and he > does not have a fever and his bowels are not impacted. Basically the vet > couldn't find anything to tell us what might be wrong. He was given fluids, > a broad spectrum antibiotic, and they took labs which we will hear the > results of tomorrow. Tonight after going to the vet he is even worse. He's > so lethargic we can't tell if he is losing control of his hind quarters or > if he's just too tired to sit up or stand. If we pick him up and set him > down he takes a couple hunched-over steps and lays down. > > > > > > > > He does have a history of the herpes infection that cats get in their > eyes. He was on a lot of antibiotics during his first 6 months, but finally > his eyes seem ok. > > > > > > > > With Alex, they tried many different antibiotics along with steroids. > When nothing was working I started to work with herbs, but since I had no > idea what was wrong I was shooting in the dark. Sometimes an hour after he > took the herbs he would gain some movement back and start to be able to > wobble, but an hour later he would be paralyzed again. > > > > > > > > Now that it might be happening again I am more convinced than ever > that there must be a poison that they both got into. We did find some > fertilizer in the shed that had fallen off the shelf and was open, and I > know fertilizer is toxic to animals. > > > > > > > > So my biggest question is: I would like to know if there is a > protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help in a situation where an > animal has ingested a poison several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are > safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, > but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has > ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know > too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be > useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be > greatly appreciated. Also, the steroids did not help Alex and may have made > him worse. But I know that sometimes they can do wonders. So if anyone has > knowledge/experience to share whether we should try that path or not please > let me know. After the Alex died one vet mentioned that maybe the steroids > would have worked in a different dose, so it made me wonder if I should > consider using them with Simba. > > > > > > > > Thanks for any help or ideas, > > > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Thank you so much for responding. He is so young--only 10 months old! Its hard to believe that the problem could be kidney disease unless he was born with it. What specifically are you thinking of regarding his bladder? Kidney stones maybe? Given your thoughts on this, I might take him to another veterinary hospital nearby. Our vet was suggesting that we take him to one that is very far away, which is hard to want to do since it would be so hard to visit him and check in on him. Chinese Medicine , Jennifer Malin <jenmed wrote: > > Although I'm a certified veterinary acupuncturist, I don't feel qualified to > recommend any particular acupuncture points, herbs etc. But having been a > feline only vet for 25 years, I am experienced enough to say that I have > rarely and I mean rarely seen any cat have kidneys shut down and not produce > urine unless they have had chronic kidney disease for a long time. And as > far as toxins are concerned, cats are such fastidious eaters that they > rarely eat toxic things unless they catch rodents who have ingested poison. > In 25 years, I have yet to see a case of antifreeze toxicity though of > course it does happen. And a potassium that high suggests to me that in a > cat this young, the problem may not be that he has been unable to produce > urine but that he cannot pass it. So at the risk of offending your vet, I > would like to ask if anyone has checked his bladder to see if it is greatly > enlarged, that urine can be expressed or tried to pass a urethral catheter. > > Regards, > > Jennifer > > > On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 1:09 PM, heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: > > > > > > > The lack of urine output indicates that his kidneys are shutting down. I > > wonder if I should go ahead and do moxa on his UB 23 area. But if the root > > of the problem is some sort of poison or toxin I wonder if that might make > > it worse since a poison would be an excess condition? Thoughts anyone? > > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > > " heylaurag " <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > > > Along with high creatine levels (12) his potassium levels are very high > > and he has zero urine output despite receiving fluids last night. Apparently > > these are all very bad signs for his prognosis. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > > " heylaurag " <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I thought I'd go ahead and add that we are now seeing him twitch, so > > its looking more and more similar to the neurological issues that Alex had. > > > > > > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > > " heylaurag " <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > So let me first say what my biggest question is: if there is a > > protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help for a poisoned cat please > > let me know. It seems to be a neurotoxin. It was probably ingested several > > days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to > > animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience > > with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the category of > > herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? > > Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the > > orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > I have a very sick 10 month old kitty named Simba and it is not known > > what is wrong. The frightening thing is that we lost a 4 year old cat, Alex, > > to a mysterious illness a year and a half ago. We took Alex to a lot of > > different vets and nobody knew what was wrong. Tests all came back normal. > > It started as what appeared to be a back injury--he was walking funny in his > > hind end. Then a few days later we found him paralyzed and having seizures. > > He died a few days later. > > > > > > > > > > Simba's symptoms are a little different but similar enough to make me > > think that the odds are good that there is a connection between the two. He > > started out vomiting here and there a few days ago. Then last night he > > seemed lethargic and was whining to us. Today we took him to the vet and he > > does not have a fever and his bowels are not impacted. Basically the vet > > couldn't find anything to tell us what might be wrong. He was given fluids, > > a broad spectrum antibiotic, and they took labs which we will hear the > > results of tomorrow. Tonight after going to the vet he is even worse. He's > > so lethargic we can't tell if he is losing control of his hind quarters or > > if he's just too tired to sit up or stand. If we pick him up and set him > > down he takes a couple hunched-over steps and lays down. > > > > > > > > > > He does have a history of the herpes infection that cats get in their > > eyes. He was on a lot of antibiotics during his first 6 months, but finally > > his eyes seem ok. > > > > > > > > > > With Alex, they tried many different antibiotics along with steroids. > > When nothing was working I started to work with herbs, but since I had no > > idea what was wrong I was shooting in the dark. Sometimes an hour after he > > took the herbs he would gain some movement back and start to be able to > > wobble, but an hour later he would be paralyzed again. > > > > > > > > > > Now that it might be happening again I am more convinced than ever > > that there must be a poison that they both got into. We did find some > > fertilizer in the shed that had fallen off the shelf and was open, and I > > know fertilizer is toxic to animals. > > > > > > > > > > So my biggest question is: I would like to know if there is a > > protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help in a situation where an > > animal has ingested a poison several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are > > safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, > > but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has > > ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know > > too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be > > useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be > > greatly appreciated. Also, the steroids did not help Alex and may have made > > him worse. But I know that sometimes they can do wonders. So if anyone has > > knowledge/experience to share whether we should try that path or not please > > let me know. After the Alex died one vet mentioned that maybe the steroids > > would have worked in a different dose, so it made me wonder if I should > > consider using them with Simba. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for any help or ideas, > > > > > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Yes, a blocked cat is a rule out for kidney failure but whomever got the kidney values for you must have checked that. The most common cause of kidney failure I have seen at my cat practice is from the hallmark sign of kidney disease from vaccine administration. My patients, no but any whom are vaccinated with injectable vaccines , the hallmark of serum sickness is kidney disease and then failure....if this kitty was not showing signs of chronic weight loss and oral problems then the possibility of a small stone in a ureter..... more patients have been rescued from the brinks of death with classical homoepathy and a well chosen remedy than any TCVM that I have learned.However, you need a well traieind classical homeopath to take the case in order to accomplish this. Some remedies that have saved cats in kidney failure, Phosphorus, Serum Anguilarie, from death you really need someone trained to take the case ....... Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology > Chinese Medicine > jenmed > Tue, 1 Dec 2009 13:58:26 -0600 > Re: Re: very sick kitty...maybe poisoned > > Although I'm a certified veterinary acupuncturist, I don't feel qualified to > recommend any particular acupuncture points, herbs etc. But having been a > feline only vet for 25 years, I am experienced enough to say that I have > rarely and I mean rarely seen any cat have kidneys shut down and not produce > urine unless they have had chronic kidney disease for a long time. And as > far as toxins are concerned, cats are such fastidious eaters that they > rarely eat toxic things unless they catch rodents who have ingested poison. > In 25 years, I have yet to see a case of antifreeze toxicity though of > course it does happen. And a potassium that high suggests to me that in a > cat this young, the problem may not be that he has been unable to produce > urine but that he cannot pass it. So at the risk of offending your vet, I > would like to ask if anyone has checked his bladder to see if it is greatly > enlarged, that urine can be expressed or tried to pass a urethral catheter. > > Regards, > > Jennifer > > > On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 1:09 PM, heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: > > > > > > > The lack of urine output indicates that his kidneys are shutting down. I > > wonder if I should go ahead and do moxa on his UB 23 area. But if the root > > of the problem is some sort of poison or toxin I wonder if that might make > > it worse since a poison would be an excess condition? Thoughts anyone? > > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > > " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > > > > > Along with high creatine levels (12) his potassium levels are very high > > and he has zero urine output despite receiving fluids last night. Apparently > > these are all very bad signs for his prognosis. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > > " heylaurag " <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I thought I'd go ahead and add that we are now seeing him twitch, so > > its looking more and more similar to the neurological issues that Alex had. > > > > > > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > > " heylaurag " <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > So let me first say what my biggest question is: if there is a > > protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help for a poisoned cat please > > let me know. It seems to be a neurotoxin. It was probably ingested several > > days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to > > animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience > > with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the category of > > herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? > > Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the > > orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > I have a very sick 10 month old kitty named Simba and it is not known > > what is wrong. The frightening thing is that we lost a 4 year old cat, Alex, > > to a mysterious illness a year and a half ago. We took Alex to a lot of > > different vets and nobody knew what was wrong. Tests all came back normal. > > It started as what appeared to be a back injury--he was walking funny in his > > hind end. Then a few days later we found him paralyzed and having seizures. > > He died a few days later. > > > > > > > > > > Simba's symptoms are a little different but similar enough to make me > > think that the odds are good that there is a connection between the two. He > > started out vomiting here and there a few days ago. Then last night he > > seemed lethargic and was whining to us. Today we took him to the vet and he > > does not have a fever and his bowels are not impacted. Basically the vet > > couldn't find anything to tell us what might be wrong. He was given fluids, > > a broad spectrum antibiotic, and they took labs which we will hear the > > results of tomorrow. Tonight after going to the vet he is even worse. He's > > so lethargic we can't tell if he is losing control of his hind quarters or > > if he's just too tired to sit up or stand. If we pick him up and set him > > down he takes a couple hunched-over steps and lays down. > > > > > > > > > > He does have a history of the herpes infection that cats get in their > > eyes. He was on a lot of antibiotics during his first 6 months, but finally > > his eyes seem ok. > > > > > > > > > > With Alex, they tried many different antibiotics along with steroids. > > When nothing was working I started to work with herbs, but since I had no > > idea what was wrong I was shooting in the dark. Sometimes an hour after he > > took the herbs he would gain some movement back and start to be able to > > wobble, but an hour later he would be paralyzed again. > > > > > > > > > > Now that it might be happening again I am more convinced than ever > > that there must be a poison that they both got into. We did find some > > fertilizer in the shed that had fallen off the shelf and was open, and I > > know fertilizer is toxic to animals. > > > > > > > > > > So my biggest question is: I would like to know if there is a > > protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help in a situation where an > > animal has ingested a poison several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are > > safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, > > but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has > > ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know > > too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be > > useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be > > greatly appreciated. Also, the steroids did not help Alex and may have made > > him worse. But I know that sometimes they can do wonders. So if anyone has > > knowledge/experience to share whether we should try that path or not please > > let me know. After the Alex died one vet mentioned that maybe the steroids > > would have worked in a different dose, so it made me wonder if I should > > consider using them with Simba. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for any help or ideas, > > > > > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 You could moxa around the kidney belt in any regards, for my patients with kindey disease this was something the owners could even do at home. Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology Chinese Medicine heylaurag Tue, 1 Dec 2009 20:09:03 +0000 Re: very sick kitty...maybe poisoned Thank you so much for responding. He is so young--only 10 months old! Its hard to believe that the problem could be kidney disease unless he was born with it. What specifically are you thinking of regarding his bladder? Kidney stones maybe? Given your thoughts on this, I might take him to another veterinary hospital nearby. Our vet was suggesting that we take him to one that is very far away, which is hard to want to do since it would be so hard to visit him and check in on him. Chinese Medicine , Jennifer Malin <jenmed wrote: > > Although I'm a certified veterinary acupuncturist, I don't feel qualified to > recommend any particular acupuncture points, herbs etc. But having been a > feline only vet for 25 years, I am experienced enough to say that I have > rarely and I mean rarely seen any cat have kidneys shut down and not produce > urine unless they have had chronic kidney disease for a long time. And as > far as toxins are concerned, cats are such fastidious eaters that they > rarely eat toxic things unless they catch rodents who have ingested poison. > In 25 years, I have yet to see a case of antifreeze toxicity though of > course it does happen. And a potassium that high suggests to me that in a > cat this young, the problem may not be that he has been unable to produce > urine but that he cannot pass it. So at the risk of offending your vet, I > would like to ask if anyone has checked his bladder to see if it is greatly > enlarged, that urine can be expressed or tried to pass a urethral catheter. > > Regards, > > Jennifer > > > On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 1:09 PM, heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: > > > > > > > The lack of urine output indicates that his kidneys are shutting down. I > > wonder if I should go ahead and do moxa on his UB 23 area. But if the root > > of the problem is some sort of poison or toxin I wonder if that might make > > it worse since a poison would be an excess condition? Thoughts anyone? > > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > > " heylaurag " <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > > > Along with high creatine levels (12) his potassium levels are very high > > and he has zero urine output despite receiving fluids last night. Apparently > > these are all very bad signs for his prognosis. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > > " heylaurag " <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I thought I'd go ahead and add that we are now seeing him twitch, so > > its looking more and more similar to the neurological issues that Alex had. > > > > > > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > > " heylaurag " <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > So let me first say what my biggest question is: if there is a > > protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help for a poisoned cat please > > let me know. It seems to be a neurotoxin. It was probably ingested several > > days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to > > animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience > > with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the category of > > herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? > > Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the > > orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > I have a very sick 10 month old kitty named Simba and it is not known > > what is wrong. The frightening thing is that we lost a 4 year old cat, Alex, > > to a mysterious illness a year and a half ago. We took Alex to a lot of > > different vets and nobody knew what was wrong. Tests all came back normal. > > It started as what appeared to be a back injury--he was walking funny in his > > hind end. Then a few days later we found him paralyzed and having seizures. > > He died a few days later. > > > > > > > > > > Simba's symptoms are a little different but similar enough to make me > > think that the odds are good that there is a connection between the two. He > > started out vomiting here and there a few days ago. Then last night he > > seemed lethargic and was whining to us. Today we took him to the vet and he > > does not have a fever and his bowels are not impacted. Basically the vet > > couldn't find anything to tell us what might be wrong. He was given fluids, > > a broad spectrum antibiotic, and they took labs which we will hear the > > results of tomorrow. Tonight after going to the vet he is even worse. He's > > so lethargic we can't tell if he is losing control of his hind quarters or > > if he's just too tired to sit up or stand. If we pick him up and set him > > down he takes a couple hunched-over steps and lays down. > > > > > > > > > > He does have a history of the herpes infection that cats get in their > > eyes. He was on a lot of antibiotics during his first 6 months, but finally > > his eyes seem ok. > > > > > > > > > > With Alex, they tried many different antibiotics along with steroids. > > When nothing was working I started to work with herbs, but since I had no > > idea what was wrong I was shooting in the dark. Sometimes an hour after he > > took the herbs he would gain some movement back and start to be able to > > wobble, but an hour later he would be paralyzed again. > > > > > > > > > > Now that it might be happening again I am more convinced than ever > > that there must be a poison that they both got into. We did find some > > fertilizer in the shed that had fallen off the shelf and was open, and I > > know fertilizer is toxic to animals. > > > > > > > > > > So my biggest question is: I would like to know if there is a > > protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help in a situation where an > > animal has ingested a poison several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are > > safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, > > but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has > > ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know > > too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be > > useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be > > greatly appreciated. Also, the steroids did not help Alex and may have made > > him worse. But I know that sometimes they can do wonders. So if anyone has > > knowledge/experience to share whether we should try that path or not please > > let me know. After the Alex died one vet mentioned that maybe the steroids > > would have worked in a different dose, so it made me wonder if I should > > consider using them with Simba. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for any help or ideas, > > > > > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Hi Laura, Eight months ago my cat had a condition and the vet gave him Metacam for pain - my cat immediately went into kidney failure- Thousands of dollars later and 10 days at the Vet on IV fluids and he came through it - I started to do research and it seems that this drug (related to Viox) is very dangerous for cats. I called the pharmaceutical company and they said that if the Vet would call them that they would reimburse me for my costs - however the Vet wouldn't call. I have no idea if your cat took this medicine - but cats are very very sensitive - I've heard of cats dying from essential oils used against fleas - Take a look and see if there is anything new your cat might have taken - also there is a recall on a cat food- sorry that I don't know which one - I just heard the tail end of the message on the TV. Good luck - I know how upsetting this is... Mary Mary Chamberlain, LAc, MS. 518-798-8899 heylaurag <heylaurag Chinese Medicine Tue, Dec 1, 2009 11:49 am Re: very sick kitty...maybe poisoned We just got some labs back on Simba. His kidney numbers are 12 and they should be something like 3. This is different from Alex--all of his labs were totally normal. Which is relieving, but it is a lethal level. Could be antifreeze or an infection. Ba Zheng Tang?? Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > I thought I'd go ahead and add that we are now seeing him twitch, so its looking more and more similar to the neurological issues that Alex had. > > Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > So let me first say what my biggest question is: if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help for a poisoned cat please let me know. It seems to be a neurotoxin. It was probably ingested several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > > > I have a very sick 10 month old kitty named Simba and it is not known what is wrong. The frightening thing is that we lost a 4 year old cat, Alex, to a mysterious illness a year and a half ago. We took Alex to a lot of different vets and nobody knew what was wrong. Tests all came back normal. It started as what appeared to be a back injury--he was walking funny in his hind end. Then a few days later we found him paralyzed and having seizures. He died a few days later. > > > > Simba's symptoms are a little different but similar enough to make me think that the odds are good that there is a connection between the two. He started out vomiting here and there a few days ago. Then last night he seemed lethargic and was whining to us. Today we took him to the vet and he does not have a fever and his bowels are not impacted. Basically the vet couldn't find anything to tell us what might be wrong. He was given fluids, a broad spectrum antibiotic, and they took labs which we will hear the results of tomorrow. Tonight after going to the vet he is even worse. He's so lethargic we can't tell if he is losing control of his hind quarters or if he's just too tired to sit up or stand. If we pick him up and set him down he takes a couple hunched-over steps and lays down. > > > > He does have a history of the herpes infection that cats get in their eyes. He was on a lot of antibiotics during his first 6 months, but finally his eyes seem ok. > > > > With Alex, they tried many different antibiotics along with steroids. When nothing was working I started to work with herbs, but since I had no idea what was wrong I was shooting in the dark. Sometimes an hour after he took the herbs he would gain some movement back and start to be able to wobble, but an hour later he would be paralyzed again. > > > > Now that it might be happening again I am more convinced than ever that there must be a poison that they both got into. We did find some fertilizer in the shed that had fallen off the shelf and was open, and I know fertilizer is toxic to animals. > > > > So my biggest question is: I would like to know if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help in a situation where an animal has ingested a poison several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Also, the steroids did not help Alex and may have made him worse. But I know that sometimes they can do wonders. So if anyone has knowledge/experience to share whether we should try that path or not please let me know. After the Alex died one vet mentioned that maybe the steroids would have worked in a different dose, so it made me wonder if I should consider using them with Simba. > > > > Thanks for any help or ideas, > > > > Laura > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Our vet said that his bladder is not enlarged at all because there is no urine being made by the kidneys, and that is the problem. I am thinking Gan Cao (for toxicity), and either Amber Stone Transforming Formula (for stones) or Ba Zheng Tang (for infections). The vet is thinking he has an excess that is causing the kidney not to function--the excess would be from either a renal infection--pyelonephritis--or a poison. So from that point of view maybe I shouldn't do Fu Zi. But it seems like kicking the kidney yang into action with Fu Zi is something I've read about in an extreme situation like this. The vet said that his abdomen is very sore to the touch. Chinese Medicine , Patricia Jordan <coastalcatclinic wrote: > > > You could moxa around the kidney belt in any regards, for my patients with kindey disease this was something the owners could even do at home. > > Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > heylaurag > Tue, 1 Dec 2009 20:09:03 +0000 > Re: very sick kitty...maybe poisoned > > > > > > Thank you so much for responding. He is so young--only 10 months old! Its hard to believe that the problem could be kidney disease unless he was born with it. What specifically are you thinking of regarding his bladder? Kidney stones maybe? Given your thoughts on this, I might take him to another veterinary hospital nearby. Our vet was suggesting that we take him to one that is very far away, which is hard to want to do since it would be so hard to visit him and check in on him. > > Chinese Medicine , Jennifer Malin <jenmed@> wrote: > > > > Although I'm a certified veterinary acupuncturist, I don't feel qualified to > > recommend any particular acupuncture points, herbs etc. But having been a > > feline only vet for 25 years, I am experienced enough to say that I have > > rarely and I mean rarely seen any cat have kidneys shut down and not produce > > urine unless they have had chronic kidney disease for a long time. And as > > far as toxins are concerned, cats are such fastidious eaters that they > > rarely eat toxic things unless they catch rodents who have ingested poison. > > In 25 years, I have yet to see a case of antifreeze toxicity though of > > course it does happen. And a potassium that high suggests to me that in a > > cat this young, the problem may not be that he has been unable to produce > > urine but that he cannot pass it. So at the risk of offending your vet, I > > would like to ask if anyone has checked his bladder to see if it is greatly > > enlarged, that urine can be expressed or tried to pass a urethral catheter. > > > > Regards, > > > > Jennifer > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 1:09 PM, heylaurag <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > The lack of urine output indicates that his kidneys are shutting down. I > > > wonder if I should go ahead and do moxa on his UB 23 area. But if the root > > > of the problem is some sort of poison or toxin I wonder if that might make > > > it worse since a poison would be an excess condition? Thoughts anyone? > > > > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > > > " heylaurag " <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Along with high creatine levels (12) his potassium levels are very high > > > and he has zero urine output despite receiving fluids last night. Apparently > > > these are all very bad signs for his prognosis. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > > > " heylaurag " <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I thought I'd go ahead and add that we are now seeing him twitch, so > > > its looking more and more similar to the neurological issues that Alex had. > > > > > > > > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > > > " heylaurag " <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > So let me first say what my biggest question is: if there is a > > > protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help for a poisoned cat please > > > let me know. It seems to be a neurotoxin. It was probably ingested several > > > days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to > > > animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience > > > with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the category of > > > herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? > > > Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the > > > orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a very sick 10 month old kitty named Simba and it is not known > > > what is wrong. The frightening thing is that we lost a 4 year old cat, Alex, > > > to a mysterious illness a year and a half ago. We took Alex to a lot of > > > different vets and nobody knew what was wrong. Tests all came back normal. > > > It started as what appeared to be a back injury--he was walking funny in his > > > hind end. Then a few days later we found him paralyzed and having seizures. > > > He died a few days later. > > > > > > > > > > > > Simba's symptoms are a little different but similar enough to make me > > > think that the odds are good that there is a connection between the two. He > > > started out vomiting here and there a few days ago. Then last night he > > > seemed lethargic and was whining to us. Today we took him to the vet and he > > > does not have a fever and his bowels are not impacted. Basically the vet > > > couldn't find anything to tell us what might be wrong. He was given fluids, > > > a broad spectrum antibiotic, and they took labs which we will hear the > > > results of tomorrow. Tonight after going to the vet he is even worse. He's > > > so lethargic we can't tell if he is losing control of his hind quarters or > > > if he's just too tired to sit up or stand. If we pick him up and set him > > > down he takes a couple hunched-over steps and lays down. > > > > > > > > > > > > He does have a history of the herpes infection that cats get in their > > > eyes. He was on a lot of antibiotics during his first 6 months, but finally > > > his eyes seem ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > With Alex, they tried many different antibiotics along with steroids. > > > When nothing was working I started to work with herbs, but since I had no > > > idea what was wrong I was shooting in the dark. Sometimes an hour after he > > > took the herbs he would gain some movement back and start to be able to > > > wobble, but an hour later he would be paralyzed again. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now that it might be happening again I am more convinced than ever > > > that there must be a poison that they both got into. We did find some > > > fertilizer in the shed that had fallen off the shelf and was open, and I > > > know fertilizer is toxic to animals. > > > > > > > > > > > > So my biggest question is: I would like to know if there is a > > > protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help in a situation where an > > > animal has ingested a poison several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are > > > safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, > > > but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has > > > ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know > > > too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be > > > useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be > > > greatly appreciated. Also, the steroids did not help Alex and may have made > > > him worse. But I know that sometimes they can do wonders. So if anyone has > > > knowledge/experience to share whether we should try that path or not please > > > let me know. After the Alex died one vet mentioned that maybe the steroids > > > would have worked in a different dose, so it made me wonder if I should > > > consider using them with Simba. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for any help or ideas, > > > > > > > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Thanks for your thoughts. I am torn about what to do. Our vet has been kind of like, " there's nothing we can do that is going to make a difference, so its worth it to take a chance with the herbs " . But hearing your story gives me a little hope that maybe something can be done. So I am torn about whether to give herbs. We've taken him to the vet yesterday and today for IV fluids plus diuretic and antibiotics. He's worse, not better. I'm thinking of giving him Wu Ling San plus Gan Cao for its use in relieving toxicity. Plus digestives since he has been vomiting. The vet said that the bottom line is that his kidneys are not working. They are not making urine. So even though he is not urinating, his bladder is empty. Seems like Gui Zhi in Wu Ling San might kick-start the kidney yang to make urine. I'm even considering Fu Zi. Chinese Medicine , Mary Chamberlain <acumary wrote: > > > Hi Laura, > > Eight months ago my cat had a condition and the vet gave him Metacam for pain - my cat immediately went into kidney failure- Thousands of dollars later and 10 days at the Vet on IV fluids and he came through it - I started to do research and it seems that this drug (related to Viox) is very dangerous for cats. I called the pharmaceutical company and they said that if the Vet would call them that they would reimburse me for my costs - however the Vet wouldn't call. I have no idea if your cat took this medicine - but cats are very very sensitive - I've heard of cats dying from essential oils used against fleas - Take a look and see if there is anything new your cat might have taken - also there is a recall on a cat food- sorry that I don't know which one - I just heard the tail end of the message on the TV. > > Good luck - I know how upsetting this is... > Mary > > > > Mary Chamberlain, LAc, MS. > 518-798-8899 > heylaurag <heylaurag > Chinese Medicine > Tue, Dec 1, 2009 11:49 am > Re: very sick kitty...maybe poisoned > > > > > > We just got some labs back on Simba. His kidney numbers are 12 and they should be something like 3. This is different from Alex--all of his labs were totally normal. Which is relieving, but it is a lethal level. Could be antifreeze or an infection. Ba Zheng Tang?? > > Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > I thought I'd go ahead and add that we are now seeing him twitch, so its looking more and more similar to the neurological issues that Alex had. > > > > Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > So let me first say what my biggest question is: if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help for a poisoned cat please let me know. It seems to be a neurotoxin. It was probably ingested several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > > I have a very sick 10 month old kitty named Simba and it is not known what is wrong. The frightening thing is that we lost a 4 year old cat, Alex, to a mysterious illness a year and a half ago. We took Alex to a lot of different vets and nobody knew what was wrong. Tests all came back normal. It started as what appeared to be a back injury--he was walking funny in his hind end. Then a few days later we found him paralyzed and having seizures. He died a few days later. > > > > > > Simba's symptoms are a little different but similar enough to make me think that the odds are good that there is a connection between the two. He started out vomiting here and there a few days ago. Then last night he seemed lethargic and was whining to us. Today we took him to the vet and he does not have a fever and his bowels are not impacted. Basically the vet couldn't find anything to tell us what might be wrong. He was given fluids, a broad spectrum antibiotic, and they took labs which we will hear the results of tomorrow. Tonight after going to the vet he is even worse. He's so lethargic we can't tell if he is losing control of his hind quarters or if he's just too tired to sit up or stand. If we pick him up and set him down he takes a couple hunched-over steps and lays down. > > > > > > He does have a history of the herpes infection that cats get in their eyes. He was on a lot of antibiotics during his first 6 months, but finally his eyes seem ok. > > > > > > With Alex, they tried many different antibiotics along with steroids. When nothing was working I started to work with herbs, but since I had no idea what was wrong I was shooting in the dark. Sometimes an hour after he took the herbs he would gain some movement back and start to be able to wobble, but an hour later he would be paralyzed again. > > > > > > Now that it might be happening again I am more convinced than ever that there must be a poison that they both got into. We did find some fertilizer in the shed that had fallen off the shelf and was open, and I know fertilizer is toxic to animals. > > > > > > So my biggest question is: I would like to know if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help in a situation where an animal has ingested a poison several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Also, the steroids did not help Alex and may have made him worse. But I know that sometimes they can do wonders. So if anyone has knowledge/experience to share whether we should try that path or not please let me know. After the Alex died one vet mentioned that maybe the steroids would have worked in a different dose, so it made me wonder if I should consider using them with Simba. > > > > > > Thanks for any help or ideas, > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Laura: I am sending your kitty healing light. Can't really advise on herbs. Mary:  You raise a great point about cat's sensitivity. I have heard stories too. I have 4 cats and 2 dogs. I live in a wooded area where stray cats appear. My cat, Cheddar, is a fluffy long-haired, orange cat, who gets tons of ticks on him.  I can't always find them or pluck them, since he is a bit fiesty. Is there any natural remedy I can use for this, that is not dangerous to cats? Thanks, Anne Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com - " Mary Chamberlain " <acumary " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, December 1, 2009 3:20:04 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Re:  Re: very sick kitty...maybe poisoned  Hi Laura, Eight months ago my cat had a condition and the vet gave him Metacam for pain - my cat immediately went into kidney failure- Thousands of dollars later and 10 days at the Vet on IV fluids and he came through it - I started to do research and it seems that this drug (related to Viox) is very dangerous for cats. I called the pharmaceutical company and they said that if the Vet would call them that they would reimburse me for my costs - however the Vet wouldn't call. I have no idea if your cat took this medicine - but cats are very very sensitive - I've heard of cats dying from essential oils used against fleas - Take a look and see if there is anything new your cat might have taken - also there is a recall on a cat food- sorry that I don't know which one - I just heard the tail end of the message on the TV. Good luck - I know how upsetting this is... Mary Mary Chamberlain, LAc, MS. 518-798-8899 heylaurag < heylaurag > Chinese Medicine Tue, Dec 1, 2009 11:49 am Re: very sick kitty...maybe poisoned We just got some labs back on Simba. His kidney numbers are 12 and they should be something like 3. This is different from Alex--all of his labs were totally normal. Which is relieving, but it is a lethal level. Could be antifreeze or an infection. Ba Zheng Tang?? Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > I thought I'd go ahead and add that we are now seeing him twitch, so its looking more and more similar to the neurological issues that Alex had. > > Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > So let me first say what my biggest question is: if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help for a poisoned cat please let me know. It seems to be a neurotoxin. It was probably ingested several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > > > I have a very sick 10 month old kitty named Simba and it is not known what is wrong. The frightening thing is that we lost a 4 year old cat, Alex, to a mysterious illness a year and a half ago. We took Alex to a lot of different vets and nobody knew what was wrong. Tests all came back normal. It started as what appeared to be a back injury--he was walking funny in his hind end. Then a few days later we found him paralyzed and having seizures. He died a few days later. > > > > Simba's symptoms are a little different but similar enough to make me think that the odds are good that there is a connection between the two. He started out vomiting here and there a few days ago. Then last night he seemed lethargic and was whining to us. Today we took him to the vet and he does not have a fever and his bowels are not impacted. Basically the vet couldn't find anything to tell us what might be wrong. He was given fluids, a broad spectrum antibiotic, and they took labs which we will hear the results of tomorrow. Tonight after going to the vet he is even worse. He's so lethargic we can't tell if he is losing control of his hind quarters or if he's just too tired to sit up or stand. If we pick him up and set him down he takes a couple hunched-over steps and lays down. > > > > He does have a history of the herpes infection that cats get in their eyes. He was on a lot of antibiotics during his first 6 months, but finally his eyes seem ok. > > > > With Alex, they tried many different antibiotics along with steroids. When nothing was working I started to work with herbs, but since I had no idea what was wrong I was shooting in the dark. Sometimes an hour after he took the herbs he would gain some movement back and start to be able to wobble, but an hour later he would be paralyzed again. > > > > Now that it might be happening again I am more convinced than ever that there must be a poison that they both got into. We did find some fertilizer in the shed that had fallen off the shelf and was open, and I know fertilizer is toxic to animals. > > > > So my biggest question is: I would like to know if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help in a situation where an animal has ingested a poison several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Also, the steroids did not help Alex and may have made him worse. But I know that sometimes they can do wonders. So if anyone has knowledge/experience to share whether we should try that path or not please let me know. After the Alex died one vet mentioned that maybe the steroids would have worked in a different dose, so it made me wonder if I should consider using them with Simba. > > > > Thanks for any help or ideas, > > > > Laura > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Hi Anne, Unfortunately I really haven't found one - I make a formula of essential oils for my dogs but am afraid to put it on the cats as I know how sensitive they are. In the past we use to put garlic in their food but now experts warn against it as garlic has been found to be toxic to dogs and cats, It is a giant pain but I check them every day with a flea comb and every few days I put them in the tub - I don't use shampoo unless really necessary - but the water will kill the fleas - and when the cat is wet it's easier to see them - I also have 2 fluffy long-haired cats. When you wet the cat the fleas try to escape - but watch the ears as that is where they try to go - Also a drop of Olive oil on the fleas or ticks will suffocate them. I know that I'm very lucky that they let me bathe them - I use a big laundry basket that I put in the tub - I put towels on the bottom do that they feel secure and then I use long rubber gloves so that I don't get scratched. I just adopt a strong mental conviction that this must be done - my Persian I've had since he was a kitten and he's just used to it - my big orange cat was a stray I rescued and he has accepted it - there is no option - same with clipping nails - I will do it no matter how difficult or how long it takes - I do believe they sense this. The other thing is diet - I don't feed raw but I cook all natural food for them which does strengthen the immune system. I'd be interested to hear any safe suggestions for these problems. I will say that watching my Persian just collapse and go into kidney failure after his second Metacam dose has scared me forever - I will never give him anything without thorough research. Cats are so sensitive and I think that fact that they are very picky eaters is nature's way of protecting them. Good Luck, Mary Mary Chamberlain, LAc, MS. 518-798-8899 www.saratoga.com/healing-arts/ Anne Crowley <anne.crowley Traditional <Chinese Medicine > Wed, Dec 2, 2009 9:11 am Re: Re: very sick kitty...maybe poisoned Laura: I am sending your kitty healing light. Can't really advise on herbs. Mary: You raise a great point about cat's sensitivity. I have heard stories too. I have 4 cats and 2 dogs. I live in a wooded area where stray cats appear. My cat, Cheddar, is a fluffy long-haired, orange cat, who gets tons of ticks on him. I can't always find them or pluck them, since he is a bit fiesty. Is there any natural remedy I can use for this, that is not dangerous to cats? Thanks, Anne Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com - " Mary Chamberlain " <acumary " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, December 1, 2009 3:20:04 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Re: Re: very sick kitty...maybe poisoned Hi Laura, Eight months ago my cat had a condition and the vet gave him Metacam for pain - my cat immediately went into kidney failure- Thousands of dollars later and 10 days at the Vet on IV fluids and he came through it - I started to do research and it seems that this drug (related to Viox) is very dangerous for cats. I called the pharmaceutical company and they said that if the Vet would call them that they would reimburse me for my costs - however the Vet wouldn't call. I have no idea if your cat took this medicine - but cats are very very sensitive - I've heard of cats dying from essential oils used against fleas - Take a look and see if there is anything new your cat might have taken - also there is a recall on a cat food- sorry that I don't know which one - I just heard the tail end of the message on the TV. Good luck - I know how upsetting this is... Mary Mary Chamberlain, LAc, MS. 518-798-8899 heylaurag < heylaurag > Chinese Medicine Tue, Dec 1, 2009 11:49 am Re: very sick kitty...maybe poisoned We just got some labs back on Simba. His kidney numbers are 12 and they should be something like 3. This is different from Alex--all of his labs were totally normal. Which is relieving, but it is a lethal level. Could be antifreeze or an infection. Ba Zheng Tang?? Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > I thought I'd go ahead and add that we are now seeing him twitch, so its looking more and more similar to the neurological issues that Alex had. > > Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > So let me first say what my biggest question is: if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help for a poisoned cat please let me know. It seems to be a neurotoxin. It was probably ingested several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > > > I have a very sick 10 month old kitty named Simba and it is not known what is wrong. The frightening thing is that we lost a 4 year old cat, Alex, to a mysterious illness a year and a half ago. We took Alex to a lot of different vets and nobody knew what was wrong. Tests all came back normal. It started as what appeared to be a back injury--he was walking funny in his hind end. Then a few days later we found him paralyzed and having seizures. He died a few days later. > > > > Simba's symptoms are a little different but similar enough to make me think that the odds are good that there is a connection between the two. He started out vomiting here and there a few days ago. Then last night he seemed lethargic and was whining to us. Today we took him to the vet and he does not have a fever and his bowels are not impacted. Basically the vet couldn't find anything to tell us what might be wrong. He was given fluids, a broad spectrum antibiotic, and they took labs which we will hear the results of tomorrow. Tonight after going to the vet he is even worse. He's so lethargic we can't tell if he is losing control of his hind quarters or if he's just too tired to sit up or stand. If we pick him up and set him down he takes a couple hunched-over steps and lays down. > > > > He does have a history of the herpes infection that cats get in their eyes. He was on a lot of antibiotics during his first 6 months, but finally his eyes seem ok. > > > > With Alex, they tried many different antibiotics along with steroids. When nothing was working I started to work with herbs, but since I had no idea what was wrong I was shooting in the dark. Sometimes an hour after he took the herbs he would gain some movement back and start to be able to wobble, but an hour later he would be paralyzed again. > > > > Now that it might be happening again I am more convinced than ever that there must be a poison that they both got into. We did find some fertilizer in the shed that had fallen off the shelf and was open, and I know fertilizer is toxic to animals. > > > > So my biggest question is: I would like to know if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help in a situation where an animal has ingested a poison several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Also, the steroids did not help Alex and may have made him worse. But I know that sometimes they can do wonders. So if anyone has knowledge/experience to share whether we should try that path or not please let me know. After the Alex died one vet mentioned that maybe the steroids would have worked in a different dose, so it made me wonder if I should consider using them with Simba. > > > > Thanks for any help or ideas, > > > > Laura > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Recall is on Diamond food and is due to thiamine defeciency........this time. Metacam is great at causing renal failure in cats and most vets using it don't bother to know this, allopathic vets have essentially nothing in their bag of tricks to really address pain in the cat, they also do not have homeopathy or TCVM, energetic therapy of any energetic modalities to help restart the kidneys. If the kidneys have shut down, there is no way to detox the patient, even abdominal dialysis would only be temporary and your cat will not live without his kidneys.Any herbs you administer would have to first me taken in via the GI tract and then time for absorption and distribution.....do you have that kind of time? herbal enemas are another way to get hepatic uptake of herbs, but in China, injecting herbs is a noted advantage to anything we have going on over here. Is your vet sure the bladder did not rupture? If originally blocked and then ruptured, he would be painful for sure due to urine in the abdomen.....animals do not live in this condition for 72 hours. The vet attempted using a diuretic to make the kidneys work? IF they did not respond, a different diuretic could be tried but if the cat doesnt' go onto some type of dialysis, he will be poisoned by the metabolic byproducts (ammonia etc, toxins won't be excreted). Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology Chinese Medicine acumary Tue, 1 Dec 2009 15:20:04 -0500 Re: Re: very sick kitty...maybe poisoned Hi Laura, Eight months ago my cat had a condition and the vet gave him Metacam for pain - my cat immediately went into kidney failure- Thousands of dollars later and 10 days at the Vet on IV fluids and he came through it - I started to do research and it seems that this drug (related to Viox) is very dangerous for cats. I called the pharmaceutical company and they said that if the Vet would call them that they would reimburse me for my costs - however the Vet wouldn't call. I have no idea if your cat took this medicine - but cats are very very sensitive - I've heard of cats dying from essential oils used against fleas - Take a look and see if there is anything new your cat might have taken - also there is a recall on a cat food- sorry that I don't know which one - I just heard the tail end of the message on the TV. Good luck - I know how upsetting this is... Mary Mary Chamberlain, LAc, MS. 518-798-8899 heylaurag <heylaurag Chinese Medicine Tue, Dec 1, 2009 11:49 am Re: very sick kitty...maybe poisoned We just got some labs back on Simba. His kidney numbers are 12 and they should be something like 3. This is different from Alex--all of his labs were totally normal. Which is relieving, but it is a lethal level. Could be antifreeze or an infection. Ba Zheng Tang?? Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > I thought I'd go ahead and add that we are now seeing him twitch, so its looking more and more similar to the neurological issues that Alex had. > > Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > So let me first say what my biggest question is: if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help for a poisoned cat please let me know. It seems to be a neurotoxin. It was probably ingested several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > > > I have a very sick 10 month old kitty named Simba and it is not known what is wrong. The frightening thing is that we lost a 4 year old cat, Alex, to a mysterious illness a year and a half ago. We took Alex to a lot of different vets and nobody knew what was wrong. Tests all came back normal. It started as what appeared to be a back injury--he was walking funny in his hind end. Then a few days later we found him paralyzed and having seizures. He died a few days later. > > > > Simba's symptoms are a little different but similar enough to make me think that the odds are good that there is a connection between the two. He started out vomiting here and there a few days ago. Then last night he seemed lethargic and was whining to us. Today we took him to the vet and he does not have a fever and his bowels are not impacted. Basically the vet couldn't find anything to tell us what might be wrong. He was given fluids, a broad spectrum antibiotic, and they took labs which we will hear the results of tomorrow. Tonight after going to the vet he is even worse. He's so lethargic we can't tell if he is losing control of his hind quarters or if he's just too tired to sit up or stand. If we pick him up and set him down he takes a couple hunched-over steps and lays down. > > > > He does have a history of the herpes infection that cats get in their eyes. He was on a lot of antibiotics during his first 6 months, but finally his eyes seem ok. > > > > With Alex, they tried many different antibiotics along with steroids. When nothing was working I started to work with herbs, but since I had no idea what was wrong I was shooting in the dark. Sometimes an hour after he took the herbs he would gain some movement back and start to be able to wobble, but an hour later he would be paralyzed again. > > > > Now that it might be happening again I am more convinced than ever that there must be a poison that they both got into. We did find some fertilizer in the shed that had fallen off the shelf and was open, and I know fertilizer is toxic to animals. > > > > So my biggest question is: I would like to know if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help in a situation where an animal has ingested a poison several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Also, the steroids did not help Alex and may have made him worse. But I know that sometimes they can do wonders. So if anyone has knowledge/experience to share whether we should try that path or not please let me know. After the Alex died one vet mentioned that maybe the steroids would have worked in a different dose, so it made me wonder if I should consider using them with Simba. > > > > Thanks for any help or ideas, > > > > Laura > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 Hi Laura, | Animal Poison Hotline 888-232-8870 Open 24/7 or http://www.buyactivatedcharcoal.com/animal_poisoning I'm not sure if this info will be helpful if oral exposure was not recent.  Activated charcoal is a powerful antidote and detoxicant for a broad range of poisoning in animals. The ASPCA National Animal Poison Control Center recommends activated charcoal as the treatment of choice for many poisons. Here are the recommendations on how to manage a poison emergency posted by the Animal Poison Control Center: 888-4ANI-HELP (888-426-4435) The recommended dose of activated charcoal for all species of animals is 1-3 gm of charcoal per 1 kg body weight. Repeated doses of activated charcoal every four to eight hours at half the original dose may be indicated when there is a possibility of reabsorption of poisons filtered out by the liver. Activated charcoal can be given orally with a large syringe or with a stomach tube. Activated charcoal should not be given to animals that have ingested caustic materials.  Also, Check for Organophosphate pestiside exposure I think atropine is the antidote? http://jose.kersten.free.fr/aap/pages/uk/firstaid_uk.html intramuscular injection of: - dogs/cats: ATROPINE (0.04mg per kg or 1ml per 10kg) I hope your kitty is well! Steve --- On Tue, 12/1/09, heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: heylaurag <heylaurag Re: very sick kitty...maybe poisoned Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 11:11 AM  The lack of urine output indicates that his kidneys are completely shutting down. I wonder about going ahead and using acupuncture/ moxa on kidney points like UB 23. But if this is an excess condition--eg: if he has eaten something poisonous, wouldn't that run the risk of making him worse? Thoughts anyone? , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@. ..> wrote: > > Hi, > > So let me first say what my biggest question is: if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help for a poisoned cat please let me know. It seems to be a neurotoxin. It was probably ingested several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or > if someone has ideas about the category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > I have a very sick 10 month old kitty named Simba and it is not known what is wrong. The frightening thing is that we lost a 4 year old cat, Alex, to a mysterious illness a year and a half ago. We took Alex to a lot of different vets and nobody knew what was wrong. Tests all came back normal. It started as > what appeared to be a back injury--he was walking funny in his hind end. Then a few days later we found him paralyzed and having seizures. He died a few days later. > > Simba's symptoms are a little different but similar enough to make me think that the odds are good that there is a connection between the two. He started out vomiting here and there a few days ago. Then last night he seemed lethargic and was whining to us. Today we took him to the vet and he does not have a fever and his bowels are not impacted. Basically the vet couldn't find anything to tell us what might be wrong. He was given fluids, a broad spectrum antibiotic, > and they took labs which we will hear the results of tomorrow. Tonight after going to the vet he is even worse. He's so lethargic we can't tell if he is losing control of his hind quarters or if he's just too tired to sit up or stand. If we pick him up and set him down he takes a couple hunched-over steps and lays down. Tonight we are noticing him twitching, which Alex did. So the neurological issue that was effecting Alex is likely. > > He does have a history of the herpes infection that cats get in their eyes. He was on a lot of antibiotics during his first 6 months, but finally his eyes seem ok. > > With Alex, they tried many different antibiotics along with steroids. When nothing was working I started to work with herbs, but since I had no idea what was wrong I was shooting in the dark. Sometimes an hour after he took the herbs he would gain some movement back and start to be able to wobble, but an hour later he would be paralyzed again. > > Now that it might be happening again I am more convinced than ever that there must be a poison that they both got into. We did find some fertilizer in the shed that had fallen off the shelf and was open, and I know fertilizer is toxic to animals. > > So my biggest question is: I would like to know if there is a protocol with herbs or acupuncture that might help in a situation where an animal has ingested a poison several days ago. Since a lot of herbs that are safe for humans can be toxic to animals I want to be careful in that regard, but if someone has experience with a formula please share. Or if someone has ideas about the > category of herbs I should use, that would be good to know too. Toxic heat herbs? Purgatives (but its probably been too long to be useful)? Herbs to open the orifices like Shi Chang Pu? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Also, the steroids did not help Alex and may have made him worse. But I know that sometimes they can do wonders. So if anyone has knowledge/experienc e to share whether we should try that path or not please let me know. After the Alex died one vet mentioned that maybe the steroids would have worked in a different > dose, so it made me wonder if I should consider using them with Simba. > > Thanks for any help or ideas, > > Laura > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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