Guest guest Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 Thank you Zinnia Cogent analysis. Richard In a message dated 11/26/2009 12:21:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cmszinnia writes: I agree with the people who are saying the doctorate is not focusing on and what makes it unique and valuable. I briefly considered getting the doctorate because I like to study but when I looked at the curriculum I decided I did not want to be a poorly trained western doctor. I wanted to be a thoroughly trained oriental medical doctor. Zinnia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 I agree with the people who are saying the doctorate is not focusing on Chinese Medicine and what makes it unique and valuable. I briefly considered getting the doctorate because I like to study but when I looked at the curriculum I decided I did not want to be a poorly trained western doctor. I wanted to be a thoroughly trained oriental medical doctor. Zinnia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 [As far as the societal cost goes as measured by the additional fees patients would end up paying, we can look at a prototypical AOM practitioner that has a 30 year career and sees 30 patients/week for 50 weeks per year and calculate the additional cost per treatment...Given that the average cost of treatment these days is about $70...] Benjamin ~ where did you come-up with your " prototypical AOM practitioner " numbers of 30 patients/week for $70 per treatment? On a Wisconsin listserve this week, it was revealed that a recent survey indicates that acupuncturists in the midwest are averaging $20,000 (see below). Your number would put average income at $105,000. How do you explain this discrepancy? WI_OM Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:04:39 -0500 RE: [WI_OM] First Professional Doctorate (FPD) [...I say this because the survey on income level of OM practitioners in the midwest was averaged around $20k...] _______________ Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL\ :ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 That may be what happens when one is singly an acupuncturist and uses no other modalities of Oriental Medicine, combined with the differential between CA and Michigan, for instance. David On Nov 26, 2009, at 12:47:58 PM, " Jessica Feltz Wolfson " <shantileigh wrote: [As far as the societal cost goes as measured by the additional fees patients would end up paying, we can look at a prototypical AOM practitioner that has a 30 year career and sees 30 patients/week for 50 weeks per year and calculate the additional cost per treatment...Given that the average cost of treatment these days is about $70...] Benjamin ~ where did you come-up with your " prototypical AOM practitioner " numbers of 30 patients/week for $70 per treatment? On a Wisconsin listserve this week, it was revealed that a recent survey indicates that acupuncturists in the midwest are averaging $20,000 (see below). Your number would put average income at $105,000. How do you explain this discrepancy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 I don't necessarily agree, Zinnia. It really depends upon the program. Furthermore, as I think I have mentioned previously, I think that it is crucial that we differentiate between Western Biomedicine and anatomy/orthopedics, which are within the domain of both Western nor Eastern Medicine.  I came out of my master's program with a very superficial understanding of biomechanics,  anatomy and physiology. I think that being a superb practitioner is predicated on a number of factors, and included in that list must be a strong understanding of human anatomy including the vicera, the bones, the muscles and the nerves. I am getting that from my DAOM, but I am getting much more as well,  including  continuing to learn and Acupuncture on a deeper level, specifically, in the Samra program, learning from both a Western and Chinese perspective the pathodynamics of pain, and learning together with fellow practitioners whose focus is to become more knowledgeable and better clinicians, rather than just pass a board exam.    ________________________________ C. Zinnia <cmszinnia Chinese Medicine Thu, November 26, 2009 9:20:37 AM the doctorate  I agree with the people who are saying the doctorate is not focusing on Chinese Medicine and what makes it unique and valuable. I briefly considered getting the doctorate because I like to study but when I looked at the curriculum I decided I did not want to be a poorly trained western doctor. I wanted to be a thoroughly trained oriental medical doctor. Zinnia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 I agree with you, Zinnia. I hope you plan on writing a letter to ACAOM to tell them exactly what you think. The deadline for any written/fax submissions to ACAOM is January 15th. Comments must be submitted via fax at 301-313-0912 or regular mail (ACAOM, 7501 Greenway Center Drive, Maryland Trade Center 3, Suite 760, Greenbelt, MD 20770). Larry Chinese Medicine , yehuda frischman < wrote: > > I don't necessarily agree, Zinnia. It really depends upon the program. Furthermore, as I think I have mentioned previously, I think that it is crucial that we differentiate between Western Biomedicine and anatomy/orthopedics, which are within the domain of both Western nor Eastern Medicine.  I came out of my master's program with a very superficial understanding of biomechanics,  anatomy and physiology. I think that being a superb practitioner is predicated on a number of factors, and included in that list must be a strong understanding of human anatomy including the vicera, the bones, the muscles and the nerves. I am getting that from my DAOM, but I am getting much more as well,  including  continuing to learn and Acupuncture on a deeper level, specifically, in the Samra program, learning from both a Western and Chinese perspective the pathodynamics of pain, and learning together with fellow > practitioners whose focus is to become more knowledgeable and better clinicians, rather than just pass a board exam. >  > > > >  >  > > > > > ________________________________ > C. Zinnia <cmszinnia > Chinese Medicine > Thu, November 26, 2009 9:20:37 AM > the doctorate > >  > I agree with the people who are saying the doctorate is not focusing on and what makes it unique and valuable. I briefly considered getting the doctorate because I like to study but when I looked at the curriculum I decided I did not want to be a poorly trained western doctor. I wanted to be a thoroughly trained oriental medical doctor. > > Zinnia > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Z, Which doctorate have you seen that is not doing this? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine cmszinnia Thu, 26 Nov 2009 17:20:37 +0000 the doctorate I agree with the people who are saying the doctorate is not focusing on and what makes it unique and valuable. I briefly considered getting the doctorate because I like to study but when I looked at the curriculum I decided I did not want to be a poorly trained western doctor. I wanted to be a thoroughly trained oriental medical doctor. Zinnia _______________ Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::\ T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but as to Benjamin's analysis of patients treated and fees collected, I can say that his analysis seems accurate and a good minimum requirement for a practitioner to stay in business, long-term. Personally, if I get too far below this, for any period of time, I simply won't be able to make enough to justify practicing my passion as a full time endeavor. I may be looking at this from a different perspective than others, since I made a career change from law/corporate environment to Oriental Medicine. Looking back, it took me about two years after school to be able hit these numbers. Things really did not begin to gel for me until I set up my own practice in my own location and started practicing in exactly the way I feel OM should be practiced. If I can't meet these financial numbers, it is because I am not doing a good job in at least one of three areas 1) either I have not selected a good location/population demographic, 2) I am not technically good enough to meet the needs of the community I am serving. 3) I am not communicating sufficiently, concisely or clearly about how I treat and what health means in terms of OM. We practice the most cost effective method of health care... period, and it represents the single best investment that most people can make in their health. The more clear I am about this the better I am able to serve my patients. David Toone, L.Ac. Health without Drugs or Surgery 105 Tivoli Gardens Peachtree City, GA 30269 770.780.9608 info www.davidtoone.com On Nov 26, 2009, at 12:47 PM, Jessica Feltz Wolfson wrote: > > [As far as the societal cost goes as measured by the additional fees > patients would end up paying, we can look at a prototypical AOM > practitioner that has a 30 year career and sees 30 patients/week for > 50 weeks per year and calculate the additional cost per > treatment...Given that the average cost of treatment these days is > about $70...] > > Benjamin ~ where did you come-up with your " prototypical AOM > practitioner " numbers of 30 patients/week for $70 per treatment? On > a Wisconsin listserve this week, it was revealed that a recent > survey indicates that acupuncturists in the midwest are averaging > $20,000 (see below). Your number would put average income at > $105,000. How do you explain this discrepancy? > > > WI_OM > Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:04:39 -0500 > RE: [WI_OM] First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > > [...I say this because the survey on income level of OM > practitioners in the midwest was averaged around $20k...] > > > ________ > Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL\ :ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 [if I can't meet these financial numbers, it is because I am not doing a good job in at least one of three areas 1) either I have not selected a good...population demographic] David Toone, are you saying that if you are not making a financial success with your business, it is because of the demographic that you serve? Are you implying that in order to take care of yourself, you must exclude certain populations from your caseload? If ours is " the most cost effective method of health care... period " , why does it matter which demographic you serve? ~ Jessica Feltz-Wolfson Chinese Medicine david Fri, 27 Nov 2009 12:39:33 -0500 Re: the doctorate I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but as to Benjamin's analysis of patients treated and fees collected, I can say that his analysis seems accurate and a good minimum requirement for a practitioner to stay in business, long-term. Personally, if I get too far below this, for any period of time, I simply won't be able to make enough to justify practicing my passion as a full time endeavor. I may be looking at this from a different perspective than others, since I made a career change from law/corporate environment to Oriental Medicine. Looking back, it took me about two years after school to be able hit these numbers. Things really did not begin to gel for me until I set up my own practice in my own location and started practicing in exactly the way I feel OM should be practiced. If I can't meet these financial numbers, it is because I am not doing a good job in at least one of three areas 1) either I have not selected a good location/population demographic, 2) I am not technically good enough to meet the needs of the community I am serving. 3) I am not communicating sufficiently, concisely or clearly about how I treat and what health means in terms of OM. We practice the most cost effective method of health care... period, and it represents the single best investment that most people can make in their health. The more clear I am about this the better I am able to serve my patients. David Toone, L.Ac. Health without Drugs or Surgery 105 Tivoli Gardens Peachtree City, GA 30269 770.780.9608 info www.davidtoone.com On Nov 26, 2009, at 12:47 PM, Jessica Feltz Wolfson wrote: > > [As far as the societal cost goes as measured by the additional fees > patients would end up paying, we can look at a prototypical AOM > practitioner that has a 30 year career and sees 30 patients/week for > 50 weeks per year and calculate the additional cost per > treatment...Given that the average cost of treatment these days is > about $70...] > > Benjamin ~ where did you come-up with your " prototypical AOM > practitioner " numbers of 30 patients/week for $70 per treatment? On > a Wisconsin listserve this week, it was revealed that a recent > survey indicates that acupuncturists in the midwest are averaging > $20,000 (see below). Your number would put average income at > $105,000. How do you explain this discrepancy? > > > WI_OM > Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:04:39 -0500 > RE: [WI_OM] First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > > [...I say this because the survey on income level of OM > practitioners in the midwest was averaged around $20k...] > > > ________ > Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL\ :ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Jessica, Try paying rent in Manhattan. Douglas Knapp ________________________________ Jessica Feltz Wolfson <shantileigh Chinese Traditional Medicine Mon, November 30, 2009 12:08:38 PM RE: the doctorate [if I can't meet these financial numbers, it is because I am not doing a good job in at least one of three areas 1) either I have not selected a good...population demographic] David Toone, are you saying that if you are not making a financial success with your business, it is because of the demographic that you serve? Are you implying that in order to take care of yourself, you must exclude certain populations from your caseload? If ours is " the most cost effective method of health care... period " , why does it matter which demographic you serve? ~ Jessica Feltz-Wolfson david (AT) toone (DOT) org Fri, 27 Nov 2009 12:39:33 -0500 Re: the doctorate I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but as to Benjamin's analysis of patients treated and fees collected, I can say that his analysis seems accurate and a good minimum requirement for a practitioner to stay in business, long-term. Personally, if I get too far below this, for any period of time, I simply won't be able to make enough to justify practicing my passion as a full time endeavor. I may be looking at this from a different perspective than others, since I made a career change from law/corporate environment to Oriental Medicine. Looking back, it took me about two years after school to be able hit these numbers. Things really did not begin to gel for me until I set up my own practice in my own location and started practicing in exactly the way I feel OM should be practiced. If I can't meet these financial numbers, it is because I am not doing a good job in at least one of three areas 1) either I have not selected a good location/population demographic, 2) I am not technically good enough to meet the needs of the community I am serving. 3) I am not communicating sufficiently, concisely or clearly about how I treat and what health means in terms of OM. We practice the most cost effective method of health care... period, and it represents the single best investment that most people can make in their health. The more clear I am about this the better I am able to serve my patients. David Toone, L.Ac. Health without Drugs or Surgery 105 Tivoli Gardens Peachtree City, GA 30269 770.780.9608 info (AT) davidtoone (DOT) com www.davidtoone. com On Nov 26, 2009, at 12:47 PM, Jessica Feltz Wolfson wrote: > > [As far as the societal cost goes as measured by the additional fees > patients would end up paying, we can look at a prototypical AOM > practitioner that has a 30 year career and sees 30 patients/week for > 50 weeks per year and calculate the additional cost per > treatment... Given that the average cost of treatment these days is > about $70...] > > Benjamin ~ where did you come-up with your " prototypical AOM > practitioner " numbers of 30 patients/week for $70 per treatment? On > a Wisconsin listserve this week, it was revealed that a recent > survey indicates that acupuncturists in the midwest are averaging > $20,000 (see below). Your number would put average income at > $105,000. How do you explain this discrepancy? > > > WI_OM > Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:04:39 -0500 > RE: [WI_OM] First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > > [...I say this because the survey on income level of OM > practitioners in the midwest was averaged around $20k...] > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. > http://www.microsof t.com/Windows/ windows-7/ default.aspx? ocid=PID24727: :T:WLMTAGL: ON:WL:en- US:WWL_WIN_ evergreen: 112009v2 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Douglas, Treatments at this Manhattan clinic range from $25 - $50. http://www.cityacuny.com/ Jessica Jessica, Try paying rent in Manhattan. Douglas Knapp _______________ Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL\ :ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 From a financial perspective annual revenue of $105k or 30 patients per week multiplied by 50 weeks and $70 per patient has nothing to do with the income/salary of the OM practitioner. You must consider overhead, including rent, phone, computers etc. Also recognize that $20k income in the midwest is pretty good money. No it is not a western MD salary, but thankfully we also do not have their stress levels. Another major hole in current masters education - insufficient business training and stress management coaching. On the FPM - Anyone thinking that they have graduated with a Masters and are now done learning or studying is in for a rude awakening. The Masters program as it exists is like your ABC's. If you had stopped there you would never have progressed to reading this email. Kayte Halstead MSTOM, BA(HONS)Business Happily practicing in the MIDWEST!!! Chinese Medicine , Jessica Feltz Wolfson <shantileigh wrote: > > > [As far as the societal cost goes as measured by the additional fees patients would end up paying, we can look at a prototypical AOM practitioner that has a 30 year career and sees 30 patients/week for 50 weeks per year and calculate the additional cost per treatment...Given that the average cost of treatment these days is about $70...] > > Benjamin ~ where did you come-up with your " prototypical AOM practitioner " numbers of 30 patients/week for $70 per treatment? On a Wisconsin listserve this week, it was revealed that a recent survey indicates that acupuncturists in the midwest are averaging $20,000 (see below). Your number would put average income at $105,000. How do you explain this discrepancy? > > > WI_OM > Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:04:39 -0500 > RE: [WI_OM] First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > > [...I say this because the survey on income level of OM practitioners in the midwest was averaged around $20k...] > > > > _______________ > Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL\ :ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Jessica, The demographic that a clinic serves is VERY important, but it's not just about money. Choosing a demographic is about finding a population of people who value , which is why I moved my clinic about 30 miles when I opened this location. Interestingly, the I moved from a very affluent demographic to a comparatively less affluent demographic. Regarding financial " success, " if that were what it was all about, I would have never have made this a career choice, but I do have certain obligations. That said, we need to set up the profession so that practitioners can afford to be in business and make living at it. I went about setting my fees based on treating the way I felt would get the best results for patients and will honor those who have taught me and allow me to support my family. My method is quite labor intensive, since I practice the Dr. Bear method -- a form of contact needling, with is non-invasive -- which limits the number of patients I can see at a time. I also have a 300 herb raw pharmacy, and I deliver the majority of the herbs to people in concentrated herbal extracts, customized for the individual patient. This is a very labor/time intensive way to treat. I run my acupuncture business the same as I would run any other business, setting my fees based on the actual costs of doing business. I could adopt a different model, but that would not include providing customized herbal remedies, traditionally dosed. Nor would I be able to select the best quality raw herbs -- organically and pesticide free herbs are quite a bit more costly. I could also treat using an insertion method so I could treat lots more people at once. Regarding social responsibility (which I think was the thrust of your question), we have a relationship with the local free clinic and they sent over patients from time-to-time which we see pro-bono. I also have a certain number of people that I will see at a reduced rate and I try to have a couple of trades going at any given time. For instance, one patient owns a restaurant and was hard hit by the economy, so we traded her for the fresh ginger that we use for the ginger moxa and for the raw herb formulas and extracts for awhile. Regarding your question, about which demographic I serve, I serve the one that values the services I provide, period. David Toone, L.Ac. Health without Drugs or Surgery 105 Tivoli Gardens Peachtree City, GA 30269 770.780.9608 info www.davidtoone.com Nov 30, 2009, at 12:08 PM, Jessica Feltz Wolfson wrote: > > [if I can't meet these financial numbers, it is because I am not > doing a good job in at least one of three areas 1) either I have not > selected a good...population demographic] > > David Toone, are you saying that if you are not making a financial > success with your business, it is because of the demographic that > you serve? Are you implying that in order to take care of yourself, > you must exclude certain populations from your caseload? If ours is > " the most cost effective method of health care... period " , why does > it matter which demographic you serve? > > ~ Jessica Feltz-Wolfson > > Chinese Medicine > david > Fri, 27 Nov 2009 12:39:33 -0500 > Re: the doctorate > > I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but as to Benjamin's > analysis of patients treated and fees collected, I can say that his > analysis seems accurate and a good minimum requirement for a > practitioner to stay in business, long-term. Personally, if I get too > far below this, for any period of time, I simply won't be able to make > enough to justify practicing my passion as a full time endeavor. I may > be looking at this from a different perspective than others, since I > made a career change from law/corporate environment to Oriental > Medicine. > > Looking back, it took me about two years after school to be able hit > these numbers. Things really did not begin to gel for me until I set > up my own practice in my own location and started practicing in > exactly the way I feel OM should be practiced. > > If I can't meet these financial numbers, it is because I am not doing > a good job in at least one of three areas 1) either I have not > selected a good location/population demographic, 2) I am not > technically good enough to meet the needs of the community I am > serving. 3) I am not communicating sufficiently, concisely or clearly > about how I treat and what health means in terms of OM. We practice > the most cost effective method of health care... period, and it > represents the single best investment that most people can make in > their health. The more clear I am about this the better I am able to > serve my patients. > > David Toone, L.Ac. > Health without Drugs or Surgery > 105 Tivoli Gardens > Peachtree City, GA 30269 > 770.780.9608 > info > www.davidtoone.com > > On Nov 26, 2009, at 12:47 PM, Jessica Feltz Wolfson wrote: > > > > > [As far as the societal cost goes as measured by the additional fees > > patients would end up paying, we can look at a prototypical AOM > > practitioner that has a 30 year career and sees 30 patients/week for > > 50 weeks per year and calculate the additional cost per > > treatment...Given that the average cost of treatment these days is > > about $70...] > > > > Benjamin ~ where did you come-up with your " prototypical AOM > > practitioner " numbers of 30 patients/week for $70 per treatment? On > > a Wisconsin listserve this week, it was revealed that a recent > > survey indicates that acupuncturists in the midwest are averaging > > $20,000 (see below). Your number would put average income at > > $105,000. How do you explain this discrepancy? > > > > > > WI_OM > > Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:04:39 -0500 > > RE: [WI_OM] First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > > > > [...I say this because the survey on income level of OM > > practitioners in the midwest was averaged around $20k...] > > > > > > ________ > > Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. > > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL\ :ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Well put David. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine david Tue, 1 Dec 2009 14:02:17 -0500 Re: the doctorate Jessica, The demographic that a clinic serves is VERY important, but it's not just about money. Choosing a demographic is about finding a population of people who value , which is why I moved my clinic about 30 miles when I opened this location. Interestingly, the I moved from a very affluent demographic to a comparatively less affluent demographic. Regarding financial " success, " if that were what it was all about, I would have never have made this a career choice, but I do have certain obligations. That said, we need to set up the profession so that practitioners can afford to be in business and make living at it. I went about setting my fees based on treating the way I felt would get the best results for patients and will honor those who have taught me and allow me to support my family. My method is quite labor intensive, since I practice the Dr. Bear method -- a form of contact needling, with is non-invasive -- which limits the number of patients I can see at a time. I also have a 300 herb raw pharmacy, and I deliver the majority of the herbs to people in concentrated herbal extracts, customized for the individual patient. This is a very labor/time intensive way to treat. I run my acupuncture business the same as I would run any other business, setting my fees based on the actual costs of doing business. I could adopt a different model, but that would not include providing customized herbal remedies, traditionally dosed. Nor would I be able to select the best quality raw herbs -- organically and pesticide free herbs are quite a bit more costly. I could also treat using an insertion method so I could treat lots more people at once. Regarding social responsibility (which I think was the thrust of your question), we have a relationship with the local free clinic and they sent over patients from time-to-time which we see pro-bono. I also have a certain number of people that I will see at a reduced rate and I try to have a couple of trades going at any given time. For instance, one patient owns a restaurant and was hard hit by the economy, so we traded her for the fresh ginger that we use for the ginger moxa and for the raw herb formulas and extracts for awhile. Regarding your question, about which demographic I serve, I serve the one that values the services I provide, period. David Toone, L.Ac. Health without Drugs or Surgery 105 Tivoli Gardens Peachtree City, GA 30269 770.780.9608 info www.davidtoone.com Nov 30, 2009, at 12:08 PM, Jessica Feltz Wolfson wrote: > > [if I can't meet these financial numbers, it is because I am not > doing a good job in at least one of three areas 1) either I have not > selected a good...population demographic] > > David Toone, are you saying that if you are not making a financial > success with your business, it is because of the demographic that > you serve? Are you implying that in order to take care of yourself, > you must exclude certain populations from your caseload? If ours is > " the most cost effective method of health care... period " , why does > it matter which demographic you serve? > > ~ Jessica Feltz-Wolfson > > Chinese Medicine > david > Fri, 27 Nov 2009 12:39:33 -0500 > Re: the doctorate > > I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but as to Benjamin's > analysis of patients treated and fees collected, I can say that his > analysis seems accurate and a good minimum requirement for a > practitioner to stay in business, long-term. Personally, if I get too > far below this, for any period of time, I simply won't be able to make > enough to justify practicing my passion as a full time endeavor. I may > be looking at this from a different perspective than others, since I > made a career change from law/corporate environment to Oriental > Medicine. > > Looking back, it took me about two years after school to be able hit > these numbers. Things really did not begin to gel for me until I set > up my own practice in my own location and started practicing in > exactly the way I feel OM should be practiced. > > If I can't meet these financial numbers, it is because I am not doing > a good job in at least one of three areas 1) either I have not > selected a good location/population demographic, 2) I am not > technically good enough to meet the needs of the community I am > serving. 3) I am not communicating sufficiently, concisely or clearly > about how I treat and what health means in terms of OM. We practice > the most cost effective method of health care... period, and it > represents the single best investment that most people can make in > their health. The more clear I am about this the better I am able to > serve my patients. > > David Toone, L.Ac. > Health without Drugs or Surgery > 105 Tivoli Gardens > Peachtree City, GA 30269 > 770.780.9608 > info > www.davidtoone.com > > On Nov 26, 2009, at 12:47 PM, Jessica Feltz Wolfson wrote: > > > > > [As far as the societal cost goes as measured by the additional fees > > patients would end up paying, we can look at a prototypical AOM > > practitioner that has a 30 year career and sees 30 patients/week for > > 50 weeks per year and calculate the additional cost per > > treatment...Given that the average cost of treatment these days is > > about $70...] > > > > Benjamin ~ where did you come-up with your " prototypical AOM > > practitioner " numbers of 30 patients/week for $70 per treatment? On > > a Wisconsin listserve this week, it was revealed that a recent > > survey indicates that acupuncturists in the midwest are averaging > > $20,000 (see below). Your number would put average income at > > $105,000. How do you explain this discrepancy? > > > > > > WI_OM > > Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:04:39 -0500 > > RE: [WI_OM] First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > > > > [...I say this because the survey on income level of OM > > practitioners in the midwest was averaged around $20k...] > > > > > > ________ > > Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. > > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL\ :ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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