What we didn't learn in AOM master's programs (but really need to know)

[Guest guest]

Kokko,

 

I think that It's a great idea within our group to explore what we should have

learned (but didn't, at least more than superficially) in order to function as

informed medical practitioners serving the general public.  This feedback

should be reported to CCAOM and ACAOM and state boards, for them to consider in

their curriculum recommendations and exams.  

 

Truth be told, I don't know about you, but during my undergrad program virtually

all the areas you mention were taught, but with little more than a once over. 

Yet, as you imply, they really are quite important, and I feel need to be taught

more thoroughly. 

 

Also, to your list, I would add orthopedics with a greater emphasis on muscle,

bone, nerve and vicera.

 

respectfully,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

<johnkokko

Chinese Medicine

Wed, November 25, 2009 12:58:50 PM

Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

What I've leaned in the last few years of being out of school have been

immeasureable.

MDs, DCs and DOs, herbalists and nutritionalists all can share something

that is useful for us...

 

and that is outside of Chinese medicine. We didn't even touch the classics

in school

and that's like being a preacher without ever reading the bible.

 

Experience is the best teacher.

The Masters program only gives us a driver's license... there's so much more

to learn.

 

Here are a few specific things that are not taught well in the MS programs

that might be important for clinical practice:

 

reading x-rays... understanding metabolic processes in the body... reading

lab tests...

explaining how acupuncture works from biomedical research... small business

startup...

current pharmacology and drug-herb interactions. .. how to listen to the

heart and lung...

physical examination. ....

 

K

 

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 8:57 AM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com>wrote:

 

>

> Z,

> There is a lot more out there then what we had in school. Greater depth

> and more cultural understanding are also important which is why many

> students spend some time (a month or more) in China treating patients.

> I have read responses by some DAOM students and graduates giving a very

> favorable opinion to their experience that has impacted their practices

> positively. Don't you think we should be considering their input before we

> pass judgement of worth?

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

> zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net

> Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:14:14 +0000

> Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

>

>

>

>

>

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>

hey, Mike!

>

>

>

> What did they fail to teach you in Chinese medical school that you think

> they would teach you if you ended-up with a Doctor title? Is it simply a

> matter of a respected title you desire?

>

>

>

> Do you truly believe having the title Doctor will translate into respect

> from MDs and DOs equivalent to that you perceive they have for each other?

> Good luck there!

>

>

>

> For the rest of the list, Do you think insurance reimbursement will be the

> answer to all your practices' financial woes? Talk to MDs/DOs (DCs, too)

> about how they are enjoying practice these days. I hear many complaining

> about how they feel they no longer control what they can do with patients

> because they must first get approval from the insurer (and this approval

> hinges on the decision of accountants more often than the decision of

> trained medical professionals) . Doctors find they are controlled by

> accountants rather than by what is in the best interest of their patient.

>

>

>

> If you do a great job diagnosing and treating both branch and ROOT such

> that you help patients correct their problems (rather than just temporarily

> relieving symptoms, in effect being a substitute pain pill), you will gain

> a strong reputation, people will seek-out your services, people will be

> willing to pay for your services with cash (or equivalent) and you will not

> need to seek insurance reimbursement. Your patients who have insurance can

> submit paperwork from you (properly documented receipts) to their insurers

> and receive reimbursement for their out of pocket expenses. Those who have

> medical flex spending accounts or medical savings accounts can pay for your

> services with pre-tax dollars (or get reimbursed with pretax dollars). You

> can choose to adopt an alternative payment scale for those without ability

> to pay full price, its up to you.

>

>

>

> Many are inadequately prepared clinically, not academically. This is an

> issue with the schools themselves being unable or unwilling to provide

> adequate student clinic settings to attract enough patients to provide the

> training opportunities. Medical schools are typically associated with

> hospitals. In China, the same is true for traditional CM education

> (associated with a hospital) such that extensive clinical experience is

> gained while still a student.

>

>

>

> Here (US) most schools insist student clinical experience is gained ONLY at

> that school's student clinic, and many of these suffer from a lack of

> patients. Students are not allowed (in most cases) to gain clinical

> experience (that counts towards their required clinic hours) at private

> clinics. TCM hospitals do not exisit here in the US, and most biomed

> hospitals are not open to TCM academics and students learning (let alone

> treating) there.

>

>

>

> Schools that remove barriers to treatment (most often $) usually have

> student clinics overflowing with willing patients, and thus opportunities

> for students to build valuable clinical experience.

>

>

>

> I think those most likely to benefit from FPD are the schools.

>

>

>

> Mark Zaranski, Ph.D. (analytical chemistry, 1986), (pending) L.Ac. (2010)

>

>

>

> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , mike Bowser

> <naturaldoc1@ ...> wrote:

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > One must be able to diagnose in order to treat as well as be able to

> understand what a patient has been diagnosed with. Entry level doctorate is

> what we should have done long ago and then we would not be discussing the

> technician vs doctor issue. Respect is a big issue and if we are to be the

> professionals of acupuncture and OM, then we need to be pushing for the FPD.

> Further efforts at continued weakening of this will only undermine the gains

> we have made.

>

> >

>

> > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > jensmeister@ ...

>

> > Tue, 24 Nov 2009 07:11:45 +0000

>

> > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

>

> >

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> > I do practice in California and am considered a primary care

> provider that can diagnose and treat illness. Don't quite understand what

> that has to do with my desire to support a unified education at a level

> that qualifies for a FPD.

>

> >

>

> > If our profession is to survive and thrive - at a physician level, not as

> a technician- in an integrative medical setting, a doctoral degree is a

> requirement.

>

> >

>

> > Simple, but powerful example: call a doctor's office to discuss a shared

> patient and tell them you are a L.Ac. Most of the time you'll be talking to

> the receptionist. Call the same office and tell them you are a Doctor and

> you'll get through to the MD.

>

> >

>

> > That of course is only one of many reasons why, if you want to sit at the

> table as an equal, a doctoral degree is the next step to take.

>

> >

>

> > I am sure as a profession we will still have many more battles to fight

> to establish and protect our scope of practice, but at least we'll be doing

> it from a more elevated podium.

>

> >

>

> > And as far as " forcing " anyone to spend money: since the FPD will coexist

> with a Master degree for the foreseeable future no one is forced to do

> anything.

>

> >

>

> > But why would you insist to stand in the way of those that would like to

> transport our profession to the next level?

>

> >

>

> > Respectfully

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Jens Maassen L.Ac.

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , acudoc11@ wrote:

>

> >

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> > >

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> >

>

> > > Jens

>

> >

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> > >

>

> >

>

> > > I must ask.....in what state do you practice for I would like to see

> the

>

> >

>

> > > LAW -Practice Scope?

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > If you were licensed in Florida you would not be coming from such a

>

> >

>

> > > wishing/hoping position.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > The last I cared to look.....acupunctur e is licensed in at least 40

> states

>

> >

>

> > > while just a few of those states carry the MAJORITY of practitioners as

>

> >

>

> > > primary care providers.

>

> >

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> > >

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> >

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> > > So from our position we would say......... ...just because YOU are NOT

> now

>

> >

>

> > > diagnosing and treating illness and injury as a PRIMARY CARE PROVIDER

> don't

>

> >

>

> > > force a MAJORITY of licensees to spend more exorbitant monies to do

> what we

>

> >

>

> > > already do......which is functioning as a physician.

>

> >

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> > >

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> >

>

> > > Richard

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> >

>

> > > In a message dated 11/23/09 11:18:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

>

> >

>

> > > jensmeister@ writes:

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> > > This is so sad.

>

> >

>

> > > At a time when Acupuncture in this country is finally reaching

> critical

>

> >

>

> > > mass, it's been on Oprah and more and more allopathic professionals

> are

>

> >

>

> > > starting to consider the efficacy of our medicine, silly infighting

> could

>

> >

>

> > > prevent us from elevating ourselves to the next level.

>

> >

>

> > > If we elevate our profession by adopting the FPD, we have a chance to

> take

>

> >

>

> > > our rightful place at the table of physicians, as equals!!

>

> >

>

> > > If we blow this chance the rising interest in OUR medicine will be

> usurped

>

> >

>

> > > by professions that have an FPD (chiros, MDs,NDs, and even PTs) and we

>

> >

>

> > > will be left wondering what happened.

>

> >

>

> > > If we don't seize the day someone else will seize it for us!!

>

> >

>

> > > And to the people who are trying to undermine the standing of their

> own

>

> >

>

> > > profession I have this to say: " If you don't want an FDP, don't get

> one. But

>

> >

>

> > > let the rest of us strive to elevate ourselves. "

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Jens Maassen L.Ac.

>

> >

>

> > > _Traditional_ Traditional_ <WBRTraditional_ Tra_

>

> >

>

> > > (Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine ) , " Shantileigh "

> <shantileigh@ sha> wrote:

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> > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

>

> > Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star.

>

> >

> http://www.microsof t.com/Windows/ windows-7/ default.aspx? h=myidea?

ocid=PID24727: :T:WLMTAGL: ON:WL:en- US:WWL_WIN_ myidea:112009

>

> >

>

> >

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , yehuda frischman

< wrote:

>

> Kokko,

>

> I think that It's a great idea within our group to explore what we should

have learned (but didn't, at least more than superficially) in order to function

as informed medical practitioners serving the general public.

 

 

Lonny: In 23 years of teaching I've never met a new graduate who could perform a

solid, basic, pulse diagnosis. I've also met very few graduates 10 years out who

could do it. If any single essential technical/theoretical aspect of the

medicine is neglected in basic education it is this. And why isn't it taught?

Because most of the teachers, Asian and Western can't do it themselves. And with

pulse went much of the holistic/integral value system it is based upon along

with a deep core of humanity that is the foundation of the medicine. And all

this has been traded for biomedical requirements for the sake of " prestige " and

insurance reimbursement and " integrative medicine " . There is no " integrative

medicine " without the pulse as a foundation in clinical practice.

[Guest guest]

Lonny,

I can agree with that... with exception of those who have studied with John

Shen or his lineage through Leon Hammer, ...or Jimmy Chang or a few family

lineages, such as Dr. Tian's taught by Arnaud Versluys, pulse is taken a

back-seat to the 10 questions and the tongue picture. Very few

practitioners can read the pulse and tell you more than the six basic

parameters of fast/slow, strong/weak, superficial/deep. In TCM school,

wiry vs tight, slippery vs soggy and choppy vs intermittent all blur based

on the perspective of the clinical supervisors you are lucky enough to pick

in a lottery.

 

Also, in TCM, body palpation, except for pulse-taking is completely

neglected in most cases. With the exception of Wang Ju-Yi's students,

Japanese-style practitioners, such as Kiiko Matsumoto, Shudo Denmei, Ikeda

Masakazu and more orthopedic specialists, such as Mark Seem style trigger

point therapists or osteopathic-style acupuncturists, such as Alon Marcus,

we are not taught to touch the acupuncture points!

 

In the herbal realm, you're taught 300+ herbs, half of them you probably may

use once in your life... and forget them after Christmas break. You're

taught 200+ formulas, but only get the chance to use maybe 30 of them in

your year of clinic.

 

so, just to say... I'm very grateful (on this T-day) for what I DID learn

in TCM school....

and am looking forward to more pulse classes!

 

K

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 6:25 AM, Lonny <Revolution wrote:

 

>

>

>

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> wrote:

> >

> > Kokko,

> >

> > I think that It's a great idea within our group to explore what we

> should have learned (but didn't, at least more than superficially) in order

> to function as informed medical practitioners serving the general public.

>

> Lonny: In 23 years of teaching I've never met a new graduate who could

> perform a solid, basic, pulse diagnosis. I've also met very few graduates 10

> years out who could do it. If any single essential technical/theoretical

> aspect of the medicine is neglected in basic education it is this. And why

> isn't it taught? Because most of the teachers, Asian and Western can't do it

> themselves. And with pulse went much of the holistic/integral value system

> it is based upon along with a deep core of humanity that is the foundation

> of the medicine. And all this has been traded for biomedical requirements

> for the sake of " prestige " and insurance reimbursement and " integrative

> medicine " . There is no " integrative medicine " without the pulse as a

> foundation in clinical practice.

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

 

 

 

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Absolutely, Lon. Much of our discussion on the doctorate is a bit distressing,

because it seems like padding an already overwhelming cirriculum with mainly

biomedical courses for working in hospitals and M.D. offices. Yet many of the

best physicians in Chinese medicine emphasize over and over again the importance

of studying the Shang Han Lun, Su Wen, Ling Shu, Mai Jing/Pulse Classic,Nan

Jing, and the other seminal texts of our profession. Pulse skills are the basis

for our core diagnostic acumen, but they remain relatively undeveloped. I was

once at a Miki Shima seminar a few years ago with over one hundred people in

attendance, and when he asked who had read the Mai Jing, only two people raised

their hand.

 

Folks, we are not going to automatically be accepted in the MD club just because

we have a 'me-too' cirriculum.

 

 

---- Lonny <Revolution wrote:

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , yehuda frischman

< wrote:

> >

> > Kokko,

> >

> > I think that It's a great idea within our group to explore what we should

have learned (but didn't, at least more than superficially) in order to function

as informed medical practitioners serving the general public.

>

>

> Lonny: In 23 years of teaching I've never met a new graduate who could perform

a solid, basic, pulse diagnosis. I've also met very few graduates 10 years out

who could do it. If any single essential technical/theoretical aspect of the

medicine is neglected in basic education it is this. And why isn't it taught?

Because most of the teachers, Asian and Western can't do it themselves. And with

pulse went much of the holistic/integral value system it is based upon along

with a deep core of humanity that is the foundation of the medicine. And all

this has been traded for biomedical requirements for the sake of " prestige " and

insurance reimbursement and " integrative medicine " . There is no " integrative

medicine " without the pulse as a foundation in clinical practice.

>

[Guest guest]

Yehuda,

I agree... if you go to the bathroom for 10 minutes in a class,

you might miss something that could be very useful clinically later...

 

The way I see it, the body is universal... the universal language is

physiology....

Although it's labeled " biomedical " , why wouldn't we want to know as much as

possible about physiology, physical exam and orthopedics?

 

People like Alon Marcus, Mark Seem and Dan Bensky (Doctor of Osteopathy) are

jewels in our profession. Isn't listening to the pulse of the CSF or the

breath movement of the internal organs an extension of what we do?

 

K

 

 

 

On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 1:34 AM, wrote:

 

>

>

> Kokko,

>

> I think that It's a great idea within our group to explore what we should

> have learned (but didn't, at least more than superficially) in order to

> function as informed medical practitioners serving the general public. This

> feedback should be reported to CCAOM and ACAOM and state boards, for them to

> consider in their curriculum recommendations and exams.

>

> Truth be told, I don't know about you, but during my undergrad program

> virtually all the areas you mention were taught, but with little more than a

> once over. Yet, as you imply, they really are quite important, and I feel

> need to be taught more thoroughly.

>

> Also, to your list, I would add orthopedics with a greater emphasis on

> muscle, bone, nerve and vicera.

>

> respectfully,

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Absolutely right on.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

johnkokko

Thu, 26 Nov 2009 07:42:45 -0800

Re: What we didn't learn in AOM master's programs (but really

need to know)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yehuda,

 

I agree... if you go to the bathroom for 10 minutes in a class,

 

you might miss something that could be very useful clinically later...

 

 

 

The way I see it, the body is universal... the universal language is

 

physiology....

 

Although it's labeled " biomedical " , why wouldn't we want to know as much as

 

possible about physiology, physical exam and orthopedics?

 

 

 

People like Alon Marcus, Mark Seem and Dan Bensky (Doctor of Osteopathy) are

 

jewels in our profession. Isn't listening to the pulse of the CSF or the

 

breath movement of the internal organs an extension of what we do?

 

 

 

K

 

 

 

On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 1:34 AM, wrote:

 

 

 

>

 

>

 

> Kokko,

 

>

 

> I think that It's a great idea within our group to explore what we should

 

> have learned (but didn't, at least more than superficially) in order to

 

> function as informed medical practitioners serving the general public. This

 

> feedback should be reported to CCAOM and ACAOM and state boards, for them to

 

> consider in their curriculum recommendations and exams.

 

>

 

> Truth be told, I don't know about you, but during my undergrad program

 

> virtually all the areas you mention were taught, but with little more than a

 

> once over. Yet, as you imply, they really are quite important, and I feel

 

> need to be taught more thoroughly.

 

>

 

> Also, to your list, I would add orthopedics with a greater emphasis on

 

> muscle, bone, nerve and vicera.

 

>

 

> respectfully,

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>