Prevention Protocol of swine flu-H1N1-Mrs Walkers's Chicken Soup

November 18, 2009

Hugo,

I understand your interest but must point out that you are in fact bringing up

this important issue that I think must first be discussed. What is a first

stage EPF in your words or what is your source? As I have mentioned one can

read this many ways and that includes that any channel may be initially

attacked, so which one are you referencing?

From a purely theoretical construct one could easily say no but few people are

uncomplicated in my experience.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

subincor

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:42:48 +0000

Re: Prevention Protocol of swine flu-H1N1-Mrs Walkers's Chicken

Soup

Hi Mike, please refer my post re formulas and their construction.

This discussion is not about the order that EPFs attack (nor did I make any

exclusive statements about that), but strictly regards the following question:

" Do we apply sinking, internalizing medicinals in cases of uncomplicated, acute

wind-cold attack? " (and I further dfined this, referring to Cong Chi Tang and

its indications as a representative treatment for mild, first stage EPF)

I am not prepared to discuss any questions other than the one above under the

banner of this thread.

Thanks,

Hugo

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

________________________________

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Wed, 18 November, 2009 14:29:02

RE: Prevention Protocol of swine flu-H1N1-Mrs Walkers's Chicken

Soup

Hugo,

As I recall a EPF can attack any layer of the body directly, so what is your

source that it goes after the tai yang first?

I agree that it might be more common but we often have patients that lack these

sign/symptoms.

Muddying the waters,

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

subincor

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:03:34 +0000

Re: Prevention Protocol of swine flu-H1N1-Mrs Walkers's Chicken

Soup

Hi John, I have defined my terms exhaustively and provided examples from

unimpeachable sources. GZT is not for acute wind-cold attack with it being

understood, as I have already explained, that acute wind-cold is equal to first

stage wind-cold, i.e., the first thing that happens when an EPF attempts to

penetrate our jade screen. See my previous post.

To be honest, I have found myself a little confounded at how much resistance

there has been to a simple theretical statement. I understand that to some

extent we are speaking at odds and talking about different things, but I have

tried, time and again, to bring the conversation back to my original point,

which is the first stage of EPF attack. This is a theretical consideration

*first*, with a potential discussion surrounding the practicalites of it that

can come *second*. In my eyes, this conversation has been " cart before the

horse " .

Just tryin' to be clear,

Hugo

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

________________________________

<johnkokko

Chinese Medicine

Tue, 17 November, 2009 21:59:19

Re: Prevention Protocol of swine flu-H1N1-Mrs Walkers's Chicken

Soup

Hugo,

Yes... a profound tautology is " finding meaning is the meaning of life. "

I agree that Gui zhi tang is for underlying deficiency,

but are you saying that Gui zhi tang is not for " acute wind-cold attack " ?

K

On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor > wrote:

>

> Hi John!

>

> If we drag out Bensky's materia and look up GZT in the section " formulas

> that release exterior cold " we find the following:

>

> Indications:

> Fever and chills unrelived by sweating

> *headache*

> aversion to wind

> *stiff neck*

> nasal congestion

> a thin, white and moist tongue coating

> a floating pulse that is either moderate or *frail*.

> *may also be used for a similar presentation in patients recovering from

> serious illness or after childbirth*

>

> So, a lot of pointers toward deficiency and penetration of the pathogen

> beneath the wei level in the indications.

>

> If we look at the " Action " as listed in the same book:

>

> Actions: Releases pathogenic influences from the muscle layer and regulates

> the nutritive and protective qi.

>

> Again, this is not an uncomplicated and acute wind-cold attack. This is an

> influence that has penetrated to the muscle layer, definitely needs to be

> regulated out, and with a potential deficiency status in the patient.

>

> If we compare this formula to Cong Chi Tang, which is a basic formula for

> the very first stage of wind attack, be it hot or cold, we can see many

> differences in function and how that function is carried out. Actions of

> CCT: " Unblocks the yang qi in the exterior and induces sweating " . From the

> indications: " This is the first stage of an externally-contract ed wind-cold

> or wind-heat disorder. [...] Since this is the earliest stage of the

> disorder, all of the signs and symptoms are mild " .

> All the listed symptomology is mild and resides on the exterior level.

>

> We can then drag out Ren Shen Bai Du Tang to discuss the treatment of

> wind-cold complicated by qi deficiency. Actions are listed as: Releases the

> exterior, dispels wind and dampness, and augments the qi. The indications

> section points out that,

> " The floating, soggy quality of the pulse reflects the deficiency of qi

> which is the salient aspect of this disorder. "

>

> Finally, to go back to the chicken, if we classify it as warm and sweet,

> tonifying the blood and qi, then it could be a part of treatment for

> external wind-cold with underlying blood and/or yin deficiency, a formula

> for which is Cong Bai Qi Wei Yin. The actions listed are: " Nourishes the

> blood and releases the exterior " . From the fomula analysis: " This formula is

> carefully balanced to avoid excessive releasing action (which would exhaust

> the blood or yin) and excessive tonification (which would cause retention of

> the pathogenic influences) " .

>

> By the way, I enjoyed reading about the Korean creation myth where the Bear

> comes out of the cave with artemisia and garlic in each hand. Meaning is an

> amazing thing.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Hugo

>

November 18, 2009

Hi Mike and all

Michael Bowser said

so what is your source that it goes after the tai yang first?

Nei Jing Su Wen - Re Lun

Huang Di - " All diseases with fever are Shang Han... "

Qi Bo - " On the first day, Taiyang is damaged... "

In the Shang Han Lun a similar statement is made

Nan Jing 58th issue

" how many kinds of shang han exist...? "

" There are 5 kinds...wind strike, cold damage, damp warmth, heat and

warm diseases... "

Stephen Woodley LAc

www.shanghanlunseminars.com

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - Does exactly what it says on the tin

November 18, 2009

Hi Mike,

I disagree that this issue must first be discussed. The question I ask is one

with a simple yes / no answer without any further information needed, provided

you're asking it of a Chinese medical physician.

EPFs attack in order, OR out of order. These are two basic constructs that we

use to assess. I am discussing the first one. You seem to be saying that the

first one does not exist. Correct me if I am wrong.

I learned that EPFs attack out of order when the affected person is weak, hit

by a pestilential force, eats bad food, has sex with an infected partner, or

other similar circumstances like the infection of an open wound. A person with

stronger wei qi, however, has a definite order, and this has been my experience.

In my clinic, I see a lot of uncomplicated, first stage EPFs as described in the

books. But then again, I emphasize to everyone that I see that the most

effective way to treat EPFs is to catch them as early as possible as much of the

time as possible. I train them to recognise the s & s, they do so, we catch it

early, the person develops skill over time, learns the basic recipes to treat

early stages of EPF penetration, and voila, the EPFs seem to attack in the

prescribed order. Of course, it's also possible that I am just doing the intake

wrong and fooling myself, and believe me I do consider this.

Finally, maybe the reason so many people are " out of order " " muddled " and

" complicated " is because too many of them eat meat even when they're hit by a

condition which requires exteriorising energy.

Hugo

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

________________________________

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Wed, 18 November, 2009 16:06:39

RE: Prevention Protocol of swine flu-H1N1-Mrs Walkers's Chicken

Soup

Hugo,

I understand your interest but must point out that you are in fact bringing up

this important issue that I think must first be discussed. What is a first

stage EPF in your words or what is your source? As I have mentioned one can

read this many ways and that includes that any channel may be initially

attacked, so which one are you referencing?

From a purely theoretical construct one could easily say no but few people are

uncomplicated in my experience.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

subincor

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:42:48 +0000

Re: Prevention Protocol of swine flu-H1N1-Mrs Walkers's Chicken

Soup

Hi Mike, please refer my post re formulas and their construction.

This discussion is not about the order that EPFs attack (nor did I make any

exclusive statements about that), but strictly regards the following question:

" Do we apply sinking, internalizing medicinals in cases of uncomplicated, acute

wind-cold attack? " (and I further dfined this, referring to Cong Chi Tang and

its indications as a representative treatment for mild, first stage EPF)

I am not prepared to discuss any questions other than the one above under the

banner of this thread.

Thanks,

Hugo

____________ _________ _________ __

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com

http://www.middleme dicine.org

____________ _________ _________ __

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com>

traditional_ chinese_medicine

Wed, 18 November, 2009 14:29:02

RE: Prevention Protocol of swine flu-H1N1-Mrs Walkers's Chicken

Soup

Hugo,

As I recall a EPF can attack any layer of the body directly, so what is your

source that it goes after the tai yang first?

I agree that it might be more common but we often have patients that lack these

sign/symptoms.

Muddying the waters,

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

subincor

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:03:34 +0000

Re: Prevention Protocol of swine flu-H1N1-Mrs Walkers's Chicken

Soup

Hi John, I have defined my terms exhaustively and provided examples from

unimpeachable sources. GZT is not for acute wind-cold attack with it being

understood, as I have already explained, that acute wind-cold is equal to first

stage wind-cold, i.e., the first thing that happens when an EPF attempts to

penetrate our jade screen. See my previous post.

To be honest, I have found myself a little confounded at how much resistance

there has been to a simple theretical statement. I understand that to some

extent we are speaking at odds and talking about different things, but I have

tried, time and again, to bring the conversation back to my original point,

which is the first stage of EPF attack. This is a theretical consideration

*first*, with a potential discussion surrounding the practicalites of it that

can come *second*. In my eyes, this conversation has been " cart before the

horse " .

Just tryin' to be clear,

Hugo

____________ _________ _________ __

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com

http://www.middleme dicine.org

____________ _________ _________ __

Tue, 17 November, 2009 21:59:19

Re: Prevention Protocol of swine flu-H1N1-Mrs Walkers's Chicken

Soup

Hugo,

Yes... a profound tautology is " finding meaning is the meaning of life. "

I agree that Gui zhi tang is for underlying deficiency,

but are you saying that Gui zhi tang is not for " acute wind-cold attack " ?

K

On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor > wrote:

>

> Hi John!

>

> If we drag out Bensky's materia and look up GZT in the section " formulas

> that release exterior cold " we find the following:

>

> Indications:

> Fever and chills unrelived by sweating

> *headache*

> aversion to wind

> *stiff neck*

> nasal congestion

> a thin, white and moist tongue coating

> a floating pulse that is either moderate or *frail*.

> *may also be used for a similar presentation in patients recovering from

> serious illness or after childbirth*

>

> So, a lot of pointers toward deficiency and penetration of the pathogen

> beneath the wei level in the indications.

>

> If we look at the " Action " as listed in the same book:

>

> Actions: Releases pathogenic influences from the muscle layer and regulates

> the nutritive and protective qi.

>

> Again, this is not an uncomplicated and acute wind-cold attack. This is an

> influence that has penetrated to the muscle layer, definitely needs to be

> regulated out, and with a potential deficiency status in the patient.

>

> If we compare this formula to Cong Chi Tang, which is a basic formula for

> the very first stage of wind attack, be it hot or cold, we can see many

> differences in function and how that function is carried out. Actions of

> CCT: " Unblocks the yang qi in the exterior and induces sweating " . From the

> indications: " This is the first stage of an externally-contract ed wind-cold

> or wind-heat disorder. [...] Since this is the earliest stage of the

> disorder, all of the signs and symptoms are mild " .

> All the listed symptomology is mild and resides on the exterior level.

>

> We can then drag out Ren Shen Bai Du Tang to discuss the treatment of

> wind-cold complicated by qi deficiency. Actions are listed as: Releases the

> exterior, dispels wind and dampness, and augments the qi. The indications

> section points out that,

> " The floating, soggy quality of the pulse reflects the deficiency of qi

> which is the salient aspect of this disorder. "

>

> Finally, to go back to the chicken, if we classify it as warm and sweet,

> tonifying the blood and qi, then it could be a part of treatment for

> external wind-cold with underlying blood and/or yin deficiency, a formula

> for which is Cong Bai Qi Wei Yin. The actions listed are: " Nourishes the

> blood and releases the exterior " . From the fomula analysis: " This formula is

> carefully balanced to avoid excessive releasing action (which would exhaust

> the blood or yin) and excessive tonification (which would cause retention of

> the pathogenic influences) " .

>

> By the way, I enjoyed reading about the Korean creation myth where the Bear

> comes out of the cave with artemisia and garlic in each hand. Meaning is an

> amazing thing.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Hugo

>

November 19, 2009

Hugo,

Thanks for clarification. I would not choose this either unless it was a more

complicated case.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

subincor

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:33:10 +0000

Re: Prevention Protocol of swine flu-H1N1-Mrs Walkers's Chicken

Soup

Hi Mike,

I disagree that this issue must first be discussed. The question I ask is one

with a simple yes / no answer without any further information needed, provided

you're asking it of a Chinese medical physician.

EPFs attack in order, OR out of order. These are two basic constructs that we

use to assess. I am discussing the first one. You seem to be saying that the

first one does not exist. Correct me if I am wrong.

I learned that EPFs attack out of order when the affected person is weak, hit by

a pestilential force, eats bad food, has sex with an infected partner, or other

similar circumstances like the infection of an open wound. A person with