Prevention Protocol of swine flu-H1N1-Mrs Walkers's Chicken Soup

[Guest guest]

Dear group:

 

I was inspired by Fiamma's post about H1N1 prevention protocol and finally ask

something in my mind for long time. In last season tv series, Brothers and

Sisters, Mrs Walkers brought home some chicken soup for her three sons and

daughters who suffered from common cold/flu.

 

I find it amazing as it congtradicts Chinese culture. Common cold patients

should abstrain from taking something protein-rich stuff before recovery.

Besides, Jason (3 adults) etc looked energetic to me and showed no signs of

deficiency. Why on earth do they need supplementation such as chicken soup?

 

In Chinese (Cantonese) dietaries, chicken soup is prepared with the whole

chicken and some black mushroom (also a slice of chen pi) and cook with low

flame for a couple of hours. It is tonifying in nature and is actually

contradiction for common cold/flu patients.

 

By the same token, I wonder why someone need prevention protocol for H1N1. The

teaching of Nei Jing (Internal Canon) states evil qi cannot interfere (affect)

you if you equipped with right qi. Taking anything else is not in line of the

teachings of Chinese medicine, such as vaccination.

 

Sung, Yuk-ming

Phd (chengdu U TCM), BA (Houston), L Ac (Hong Kong)

[Guest guest]

Hi Yuk-ming-

 

Not sure about the chicken soup, but it seems like the taking of a qi

tonic such as huang qi as a " flu preventative " makes sense in terms of

chinese medicine...that is, building one's qi so as to strengthen

one's defenses. I wouldn't say it is similar to taking a vaccination

(other than that they are both stimulating your immunity).

 

Actually, I would think chicken soup would be OK since it is mostly

broth and cooked veggies...there are bits of chicken but it's not like

having a chicken dinner, per se. Maybe a heartier chicken soup would

not be appropriate? Anyway, just thinking aloud.

 

Fiamma

[Guest guest]

Yuk Ming,

 

I have always heard that the chicken fat helps breakup phlegm, and the garlic is

antibacterial.  Not TCM at all here, and no thought about supplementation as we

understand it in our medicine, but some other folk wisdom at work.  Plus, it

goes down easy when the throat is irritated from coughing, and the warm liquid

also makes expelling phlegm easier.

 

Andrea Beth

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

635 S. 10th St.

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

--- On Sun, 11/8/09, Yuk Ming <sxm2649 wrote:

 

Yuk Ming <sxm2649

Prevention Protocol of swine flu-H1N1-Mrs Walkers's Chicken Soup

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, November 8, 2009, 6:08 PM

 

Dear group:

 

I was inspired by Fiamma's post about H1N1 prevention protocol and finally ask

something in my mind for long time. In last season tv series, Brothers and

Sisters, Mrs Walkers brought home some chicken soup for her three sons and

daughters who suffered from common cold/flu.

 

I find it amazing as it congtradicts Chinese culture. Common cold patients

should abstrain from taking something protein-rich stuff before recovery.

Besides, Jason (3 adults) etc looked energetic to me and showed no signs of

deficiency. Why on earth do they need supplementation such as chicken soup?

 

In Chinese (Cantonese) dietaries, chicken soup is prepared with the whole

chicken and some black mushroom (also a slice of chen pi) and cook with low

flame for a couple of hours. It is tonifying in nature and is actually

contradiction for common cold/flu patients.

 

By the same token, I wonder why someone need prevention protocol for H1N1. The

teaching of Nei Jing (Internal Canon) states evil qi cannot interfere (affect)

you if you equipped with right qi. Taking anything else is not in line of the

teachings of Chinese medicine, such as vaccination.

 

Sung, Yuk-ming

Phd (chengdu U TCM), BA (Houston), L Ac (Hong Kong)

 

 

 

---

 

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Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and

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accordingly.

 

 

 

Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

[Guest guest]

Hi Fiamma - I think what Dr. Sung was referring to is two-fold - first of all,

there's no need to supplement someone (with meat or ginseng, as examples) who

shows good qi (as the character in the tv show apparently did), whether they

have wind-cold or not. Secondly, the nature of heavy, rich, meat-protein type

foods is of a sinking and internalizing nature, and therefore contraindicated

according to the principles of treatment for wind-cold (expel cold / release the

exterior and then consolidate the qi).

 

Giving chicken soup to someone with no qi or blood deficiency who is suffering

from an exterior pathogenic invasion is like giving them huang lian, or long gu,

or mu li. Or treating them with Sp6 with deep insertion, rather than TW5

superficially.

 

 

Hope that helps,

Hugo

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Andrea Beth,

 

Your response is exactly what I am looking for, some folk remedies for a medical

condition. We all know garlic is antibacterial (and can treat cholesterol,so to

speak and was recorded in Jin Gui Yao Lue along with half a dozen formulas). I

was amazed at hearing chicken soup can breakup phlegm, you are kidding, aren't

you?

 

One thing is for such, lard (pig's fat) is more moistening(lubricating) that

anything else for constipation.

 

Sung, Yuk-ming

[Guest guest]

in jewish culture, chicken soup has long been a traditional remedy for colds

and flus.

 

kath

 

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 8:08 PM, Yuk Ming <sxm2649 wrote:

 

>

>

> Dear group:

>

> I was inspired by Fiamma's post about H1N1 prevention protocol and finally

> ask something in my mind for long time. In last season tv series, Brothers

> and Sisters, Mrs Walkers brought home some chicken soup for her three sons

> and daughters who suffered from common cold/flu.

>

> I find it amazing as it congtradicts Chinese culture. Common cold patients

> should abstrain from taking something protein-rich stuff before recovery.

> Besides, Jason (3 adults) etc looked energetic to me and showed no signs of

> deficiency. Why on earth do they need supplementation such as chicken soup?

>

> In Chinese (Cantonese) dietaries, chicken soup is prepared with the whole

> chicken and some black mushroom (also a slice of chen pi) and cook with low

> flame for a couple of hours. It is tonifying in nature and is actually

> contradiction for common cold/flu patients.

>

> By the same token, I wonder why someone need prevention protocol for H1N1.

> The teaching of Nei Jing (Internal Canon) states evil qi cannot interfere

> (affect) you if you equipped with right qi. Taking anything else is not in

> line of the teachings of Chinese medicine, such as vaccination.

>

> Sung, Yuk-ming

> Phd (chengdu U TCM), BA (Houston), L Ac (Hong Kong)

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

Oriental Medicine

Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

 

Abstain from all that is evil.

Perform all that is good.

Purify your thoughts.

This is the teaching of the Buddhas.

 

 

Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality:

http://acukath.blogspot.com/

 

Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

Available at Asheville Center for :

www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com

 

Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC

 

Amazon.com

http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Dragon-Liniment-Eco-Friendly-Wild-Crafted/dp/B001OC\

1AZ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1

 

 

and from the following supply companies:

Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown

https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

 

Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC

http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \

product=5554 & pg=

 

 

Asheville Center For

70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

kbartlett

www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Fiamma,

 

You are right about the saying of boosting immunity. In Chinese medicine

terminologies, we just never say immunity.

 

As always, application one single herb/ingredient without the guidance of

Chinese medicine theories is not/should not be considered be in line of Chinese

medicine. If there are no deficiencies and application of huang qi (astragulus)

is not necessary.

 

H1N1 or any pandemic are contagious and the best way to stop spreading is to

block all human contacts. I want to emphasize again formulas of School of Warm

Disease can totally control the symptoms of such pandemic (with proper

modifications). Sterilization of the enviroment is the best protocol.

 

Sung, Yuk-ming

[Guest guest]

Hugo,

 

This is your best posts I 've ever seen. Points are well expressed, logical and

with flying colors. My points of view may not be correct but yours are very

clear. Well done.

 

Sung, Yuk-ming

[Guest guest]

Miso soup is just as good. . .

 

 

 

On Nov 10, 2009, at 7:30 AM, wrote:

 

> in jewish culture, chicken soup has long been a traditional remedy for colds

> and flus.

>

> kath

>

> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 8:08 PM, Yuk Ming <sxm2649 wrote:

>

>>

>>

>> Dear group:

>>

>> I was inspired by Fiamma's post about H1N1 prevention protocol and finally

>> ask something in my mind for long time. In last season tv series, Brothers

>> and Sisters, Mrs Walkers brought home some chicken soup for her three sons

>> and daughters who suffered from common cold/flu.

>>

>> I find it amazing as it congtradicts Chinese culture. Common cold patients

>> should abstrain from taking something protein-rich stuff before recovery.

>> Besides, Jason (3 adults) etc looked energetic to me and showed no signs of

>> deficiency. Why on earth do they need supplementation such as chicken soup?

>>

>> In Chinese (Cantonese) dietaries, chicken soup is prepared with the whole

>> chicken and some black mushroom (also a slice of chen pi) and cook with low

>> flame for a couple of hours. It is tonifying in nature and is actually

>> contradiction for common cold/flu patients.

>>

>> By the same token, I wonder why someone need prevention protocol for H1N1.

>> The teaching of Nei Jing (Internal Canon) states evil qi cannot interfere

>> (affect) you if you equipped with right qi. Taking anything else is not in

>> line of the teachings of Chinese medicine, such as vaccination.

>>

>> Sung, Yuk-ming

>> Phd (chengdu U TCM), BA (Houston), L Ac (Hong Kong)

>>

>>

>>

>

>

>

> --

> Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

> Oriental Medicine

> Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

>

>

> Abstain from all that is evil.

> Perform all that is good.

> Purify your thoughts.

> This is the teaching of the Buddhas.

>

>

> Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality:

> http://acukath.blogspot.com/

>

> Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

> Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

> Available at Asheville Center for :

> www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com

>

> Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC

>

> Amazon.com

>

http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Dragon-Liniment-Eco-Friendly-Wild-Crafted/dp/B001OC\

1AZ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1

>

>

> and from the following supply companies:

> Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown

> https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

>

> Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC

>

http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \

product=5554 & pg=

>

>

> Asheville Center For

> 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

> Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

> kbartlett

> www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yuk-Ming,

 

No, I am not kidding.  I grew up having gallons of chicken soup whenever I had a

cold.  I can't say whether it is simply the hot liquid that helped break up the

phlegm or the chicken fat - but I have heard both said.  In Eastern Europe,

where my ancestors are from, chicken fat used to be the main source of animal

fat used - I can imagine that there were many legendary healing properties

attributed to it, and that this might be where the idea that " chicken fat breaks

up phlegm " comes from.

 

One of my TCM teachers firmly believed that the best diet to follow, was

whichever one your ancestors ate - because we would co-evolve in a region with

the plants, herbs and animals that lived there.  He also firmly believed that

the " comfort foods " we grew up with, were truly healing and even, possibly,

powerfully medicinal - even if it's chicken soup with matzoh balls and noodles,

or mashed potatoes, or macaroni and cheese.  Hard to justify in TCM terms,

though.

 

Andrea Beth

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

635 S. 10th St.

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

--- On Tue, 11/10/09, Yuk Ming <sxm2649 wrote:

 

Yuk Ming <sxm2649

Re: Prevention Protocol of swine flu-H1N1-Mrs Walkers's Chicken

Soup

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 8:17 AM

 

Andrea Beth,

 

Your response is exactly what I am looking for, some folk remedies for a medical

condition. We all know garlic is antibacterial (and can treat cholesterol,so to

speak and was recorded in Jin Gui Yao Lue along with half a dozen formulas). I

was amazed at hearing chicken soup can breakup phlegm, you are kidding, aren't

you?

 

One thing is for such, lard (pig's fat) is more moistening(lubricating) that

anything else for constipation.

 

Sung, Yuk-ming

 

 

 

 

 

---

 

Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and

acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

 

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

 

Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

[Guest guest]

My professor for TCM Dietary Therapy told me that chicken soup " has alot of

qi in it. " As does wonton soup, which is basically the same thing or very

similar.

In China, women are given black chicken soup after childbirth.

 

 

 

-

" " <

<Chinese Medicine >

Tuesday, November 10, 2009 10:38 AM

Re: Prevention Protocol of swine flu-H1N1-Mrs Walkers's

Chicken Soup

 

 

Yuk-Ming,

 

No, I am not kidding. I grew up having gallons of chicken soup whenever I

had a cold. I can't say whether it is simply the hot liquid that helped

break up the phlegm or the chicken fat - but I have heard both said. In

Eastern Europe, where my ancestors are from, chicken fat used to be the main

source of animal fat used - I can imagine that there were many legendary

healing properties attributed to it, and that this might be where the idea

that " chicken fat breaks up phlegm " comes from.

 

One of my TCM teachers firmly believed that the best diet to follow, was

whichever one your ancestors ate - because we would co-evolve in a region

with the plants, herbs and animals that lived there. He also firmly believed

that the " comfort foods " we grew up with, were truly healing and even,

possibly, powerfully medicinal - even if it's chicken soup with matzoh balls

and noodles, or mashed potatoes, or macaroni and cheese. Hard to justify in

TCM terms, though.

 

Andrea Beth

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

635 S. 10th St.

Cottonwood, AZ 86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

--- On Tue, 11/10/09, Yuk Ming <sxm2649 wrote:

 

Yuk Ming <sxm2649

Re: Prevention Protocol of swine flu-H1N1-Mrs Walkers's

Chicken Soup

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 8:17 AM

 

Andrea Beth,

 

Your response is exactly what I am looking for, some folk remedies for a

medical condition. We all know garlic is antibacterial (and can treat

cholesterol,so to speak and was recorded in Jin Gui Yao Lue along with half

a dozen formulas). I was amazed at hearing chicken soup can breakup phlegm,

you are kidding, aren't you?

 

One thing is for such, lard (pig's fat) is more moistening(lubricating) that

anything else for constipation.

 

Sung, Yuk-ming

 

 

 

 

 

---

 

Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and

acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

 

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

 

Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

[Guest guest]

Yuk,

we always think about the wei qi protecting the outside of the body,

but zheng qi includes ying qi and jing as well.

 

Chicken bones, marrow, fat and all

also nourishes the ying qi, blood and jing.

When you cook a whole chicken down for a few hours,

you're getting a lot of zheng qi in a pot.

 

I always feel better after eating chicken soup with garlic for a wind-cold.

 

For wind-heat, I feel better when I just drink fluids...

 

the old quote... " starve a fever, feed a cold " .

 

K

 

 

 

On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 6:15 PM, Mercurius Trismegistus <

magisterium_magnum wrote:

 

>

>

> My professor for TCM Dietary Therapy told me that chicken soup " has alot of

>

> qi in it. " As does wonton soup, which is basically the same thing or very

> similar.

> In China, women are given black chicken soup after childbirth.

>

>

> -

> " " < <%40>>

> To:

<Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\

oogroups.com>

> >

> Tuesday, November 10, 2009 10:38 AM

> Re: Prevention Protocol of swine flu-H1N1-Mrs Walkers's

> Chicken Soup

>

> Yuk-Ming,

>

> No, I am not kidding. I grew up having gallons of chicken soup whenever I

> had a cold. I can't say whether it is simply the hot liquid that helped

> break up the phlegm or the chicken fat - but I have heard both said. In

> Eastern Europe, where my ancestors are from, chicken fat used to be the

> main

> source of animal fat used - I can imagine that there were many legendary

> healing properties attributed to it, and that this might be where the idea

> that " chicken fat breaks up phlegm " comes from.

>

> One of my TCM teachers firmly believed that the best diet to follow, was

> whichever one your ancestors ate - because we would co-evolve in a region

> with the plants, herbs and animals that lived there. He also firmly

> believed

> that the " comfort foods " we grew up with, were truly healing and even,

> possibly, powerfully medicinal - even if it's chicken soup with matzoh

> balls

> and noodles, or mashed potatoes, or macaroni and cheese. Hard to justify in

>

> TCM terms, though.

>

> Andrea Beth

>

> Traditional Oriental Medicine

> Happy Hours in the CALM Center

> 635 S. 10th St.

> Cottonwood, AZ 86326

> (928) 274-1373

>

> --- On Tue, 11/10/09, Yuk Ming <sxm2649 <sxm2649%40163.com>>

> wrote:

>

> Yuk Ming <sxm2649 <sxm2649%40163.com>>

> Re: Prevention Protocol of swine flu-H1N1-Mrs Walkers's

> Chicken Soup

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 8:17 AM

>

> Andrea Beth,

>

> Your response is exactly what I am looking for, some folk remedies for a

> medical condition. We all know garlic is antibacterial (and can treat

> cholesterol,so to speak and was recorded in Jin Gui Yao Lue along with half

>

> a dozen formulas). I was amazed at hearing chicken soup can breakup phlegm,

>

> you are kidding, aren't you?

>

> One thing is for such, lard (pig's fat) is more moistening(lubricating)

> that

> anything else for constipation.

>

> Sung, Yuk-ming

>

> ---

>

> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times

> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and

>

> acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

>

>

> and adjust

>

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

> requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

> necessary.

[Guest guest]

Hi John!

 

I have to disagree here. It's not an issue about simply supplementing (which is

erroneous *if there is no deficiency*). It is also an issue of trophism. Our

categories in Chinese herbal medicine are created around the movement and

trophism of herbs. Herbs that sink or move towards the centre (astringent / sour

action) cannot expel EPF but in fact will draw them inwards to deeper layers - a

clear error in treatment according to the experiential observation in our

medicine.

Do we have even *one* single formula which uses sinking medicinals for acute

external wind-cold invasion in a patient with no other pathology? My herbal

formula memory is not great, but I will bet a whole evening for two getaway that

there is not even one.

 

I am taking the trouble to argue this point because I feel this is an important

issue since it impacts our patients negatively and also because this is one of

the areas where we are being eroded as a profession. At my last staff meeting I

did a presentation on astragalus and its proper use and contraindications

because the MDs, naturopaths and others are using this herb completely

incorrectly. There are parts of our theories which are easier to substantiate

and others which seem " less real " to us like this 4 levels theory, or meridian

circulation, or the five elements ( " only some parts of the cycle are useful " ) or

the triple burner ORGAN. It is my opinion that parts of our theory are not taken

seriously because we compromise their proper use and training via excessive

education in western (often unproven and speculative and always partial)

theories.

 

The theories about the movement of qi (sinking, rising, etc) are either correct

descriptions of a real phenomena, OR they are flights of fancy. If they are

flights of fancy then WE MUST DISCARD THEM. If they are NOT flights of fancy but

are representative of real phenomena, then we must abide by them. One or the

other - THIS is how we will maintain the integrity of our medicine. Now this

doesn't mean we behave perfectly and always in accordance with these principles

- it simply means we know what we are doing.

 

This section is titled " natural history " .

When you state, John, that you feel better after eating chicken soup with

garlic when you have a cold, that is unfortunately *not enough*. Not only do we

have actual and explicit standards of practice for the treatment of external

pathogenic factors (which we must ethically conform to), but " getting better "

CANNOT BE the only measure of efficacy. We get better for many reasons - the

" natural course or history " of an illness, placebo effect (healing reaction to a

non-specific stimulus or in accord with a subconscious directive), proper

treatment OR internal strength. We must raise our standards so that people get

better *surprisingly* rapidly - way beyond any accusation of " natural history " ,

placebo or internal strength. More toward " oh my gawd it was a MIRACLE! " haha.

 

This section is titled " internal strength " .

An important point in my view: If we have good internal strength, then our body

will be able to pick up the pieces with just a little bit of partially correct

help (or no help at all). Recovering from an illness, in this case, cannot be

credited to the partially-correct treatment, but rather must be credited to the

body's internal reserves and abilities. When we are young(ish) we can get over

the common cold *even if* we apply an internalising force against the natural

intent of the body to externalise the pathogenic factor. But I imagine that this

mixed process will generate a problem: latent pathogens in the cracks and

crevices of our internal landscape, suppressed for the moment, but certainly not

expelled and actually ready to rise in rebellion at the first opportunity.

 

With behaviour like this, might we not be adding to the warp and woof of a

tapestry called chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia (qi, blood, yin and yang

deficiency and cold damp in the muscle layer)? Certainly we are agreed that we

create this tapestry if we use Huang Qi in this way...so what excuses other

herbs and foodstuffs from this rule?

The creation of latent, internalised pathogens is a subtle problem with no

proof on any incoming horizon since noooobody! (people in Toronto will get that

joke) will ever take the time and money to do that kind of study.

 

So, again, John, would you seriously have chicken when you have a cold if you

didn't include the strong dose of garlic, which is strongly acrid, and has a

(partial) trophism for the lung and large intestine? Might the garlic be the

saving grace in that formula?

 

For what its worth.

 

And thanks if any of you made it this far,

 

Hugo

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

<johnkokko

Chinese Medicine

Tue, 10 November, 2009 22:18:44

Re: Prevention Protocol of swine flu-H1N1-Mrs Walkers's Chicken

Soup

 

 

Yuk,

we always think about the wei qi protecting the outside of the body,

but zheng qi includes ying qi and jing as well.

 

Chicken bones, marrow, fat and all

also nourishes the ying qi, blood and jing.

When you cook a whole chicken down for a few hours,

you're getting a lot of zheng qi in a pot.

 

I always feel better after eating chicken soup with garlic for a wind-cold.

 

For wind-heat, I feel better when I just drink fluids...

 

the old quote... " starve a fever, feed a cold " .

 

K

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hugo,

 

Here is my quote..

" I always feel better after eating chicken soup with garlic for a

wind-cold. "

 

I agree that the saving grace in the chicken soup formula is the garlic. As

Koreans love to point out, there was not a single case of SARS in Korea, due

to the pounds of kim-chi eaten every year. Garlic is a pungent and hot

herb, which is suitable for wind-cold, but not wind-heat. Even if you eat

chicken or congee soup, the garlic will " keep the door open " for pathogens

to leave. Koreans and Jews and other cultures traditionally use garlic to

ward off the " bad spirits " . In Korea, the founding myth includes the story

of the bear coming out of the cave with both artemesia and garlic in her

hands. Garlic might have staved off certain epidemics, hence the story of

keeping garlic to ward off vampires.

 

Without the pungent garlic or ginger or red peppers or onions in chicken

soup, yes... it would be deterious for the patient's health to eat a

marrow-rich, protein stew... but as far as I know, every recipe for chicken

soup I've ever seen has a pungent ingredient in it.

 

Gui zhi tang includes 2 pungent herbs, 1 sour astringent herb and 2 sweet

and sticky herbs. Without the cinnamon and ginger, would we have a leg to

stand on? Do the other 3 ying tonifying herbs damage the patient? Why did

Zhang Zhong Jing add the sticky herbs to this, the most famous wind-cold

formula? There must be a purpose.

 

If we're going to stick to Chinese medicine, the wind-cold is not about a

virus, but our bodies relation to the outside world... regulating the ying

and the wei. Is our purpose to fight the virus or to strengthen our body in

relation the the myriad viruses, molds, bacteria and parasites that are

everywhere at all times. We can't live in a sterile bubble, nor would we

want to fight mother nature, which we are in-extricably linked with. That's

why I think that the whole chicken mixed with pungent herbs can be extremely

useful for this type of condition.

 

By analyzing Gui zhi tang, can we figure out the best food remedy for

wind-colds?

Would it look like chicken soup with garlic? or jook with cong-bai?

 

Maybe it's just an issue of resonance and refinement, but I would have to

think again about traditional dietary practices that have worked for

centuries cross-culturally, especially if it tastes good.

 

K

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 10:12 PM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:

 

>

>

> Hi John!

>

> I have to disagree here. It's not an issue about simply supplementing

> (which is erroneous *if there is no deficiency*). It is also an issue of

> trophism. Our categories in Chinese herbal medicine are created around the

> movement and trophism of herbs. Herbs that sink or move towards the centre

> (astringent / sour action) cannot expel EPF but in fact will draw them

> inwards to deeper layers - a clear error in treatment according to the

> experiential observation in our medicine.

> Do we have even *one* single formula which uses sinking medicinals for

> acute external wind-cold invasion in a patient with no other pathology? My

> herbal formula memory is not great, but I will bet a whole evening for two

> getaway that there is not even one.

>

> I am taking the trouble to argue this point because I feel this is an

> important issue since it impacts our patients negatively and also because

> this is one of the areas where we are being eroded as a profession. At my

> last staff meeting I did a presentation on astragalus and its proper use and

> contraindications because the MDs, naturopaths and others are using this

> herb completely incorrectly. There are parts of our theories which are

> easier to substantiate and others which seem " less real " to us like this 4

> levels theory, or meridian circulation, or the five elements ( " only some

> parts of the cycle are useful " ) or the triple burner ORGAN. It is my opinion

> that parts of our theory are not taken seriously because we compromise their

> proper use and training via excessive education in western (often unproven

> and speculative and always partial) theories.

>

> The theories about the movement of qi (sinking, rising, etc) are either

> correct descriptions of a real phenomena, OR they are flights of fancy. If

> they are flights of fancy then WE MUST DISCARD THEM. If they are NOT flights

> of fancy but are representative of real phenomena, then we must abide by

> them. One or the other - THIS is how we will maintain the integrity of our

> medicine. Now this doesn't mean we behave perfectly and always in accordance

> with these principles - it simply means we know what we are doing.

>

> This section is titled " natural history " .

> When you state, John, that you feel better after eating chicken soup with

> garlic when you have a cold, that is unfortunately *not enough*. Not only do

> we have actual and explicit standards of practice for the treatment of

> external pathogenic factors (which we must ethically conform to), but

> " getting better " CANNOT BE the only measure of efficacy. We get better for

> many reasons - the " natural course or history " of an illness, placebo effect

> (healing reaction to a non-specific stimulus or in accord with a

> subconscious directive), proper treatment OR internal strength. We must

> raise our standards so that people get better *surprisingly* rapidly - way

> beyond any accusation of " natural history " , placebo or internal strength.

> More toward " oh my gawd it was a MIRACLE! " haha.

>

> This section is titled " internal strength " .

> An important point in my view: If we have good internal strength, then our

> body will be able to pick up the pieces with just a little bit of partially

> correct help (or no help at all). Recovering from an illness, in this case,

> cannot be credited to the partially-correct treatment, but rather must be

> credited to the body's internal reserves and abilities. When we are

> young(ish) we can get over the common cold *even if* we apply an

> internalising force against the natural intent of the body to externalise

> the pathogenic factor. But I imagine that this mixed process will generate a

> problem: latent pathogens in the cracks and crevices of our internal

> landscape, suppressed for the moment, but certainly not expelled and

> actually ready to rise in rebellion at the first opportunity.

>

> With behaviour like this, might we not be adding to the warp and woof of a

> tapestry called chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia (qi, blood, yin and yang

> deficiency and cold damp in the muscle layer)? Certainly we are agreed that

> we create this tapestry if we use Huang Qi in this way...so what excuses

> other herbs and foodstuffs from this rule?

> The creation of latent, internalised pathogens is a subtle problem with no

> proof on any incoming horizon since noooobody! (people in Toronto will get

> that joke) will ever take the time and money to do that kind of study.

>

> So, again, John, would you seriously have chicken when you have a cold if

> you didn't include the strong dose of garlic, which is strongly acrid, and

> has a (partial) trophism for the lung and large intestine? Might the garlic

> be the saving grace in that formula?

>

> For what its worth.

>

> And thanks if any of you made it this far,

>

> Hugo

>

> ________________________________

> Hugo Ramiro

> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> http://www.middlemedicine.org

>

> ________________________________

> <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

>

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Tue, 10 November, 2009 22:18:44

>

> Re: Prevention Protocol of swine flu-H1N1-Mrs Walkers's

> Chicken Soup

>

> Yuk,

> we always think about the wei qi protecting the outside of the body,

> but zheng qi includes ying qi and jing as well.

>

> Chicken bones, marrow, fat and all

> also nourishes the ying qi, blood and jing.

> When you cook a whole chicken down for a few hours,

> you're getting a lot of zheng qi in a pot.

>

> I always feel better after eating chicken soup with garlic for a wind-cold.

>

> For wind-heat, I feel better when I just drink fluids...

>

> the old quote... " starve a fever, feed a cold " .

>

> K

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi John, thanks for a great post:

 

I'll write a little more later, but I just wanted to remind you that my point

is about the chicken, and a common modern cultural practice of eating chicken

soup for wind-cold and wind-heat. Does every chicken meal have a pungent aspect

to it? Not many I've seen - and a little mint doesn't cut it.

 

Gui Zhi Tang, by the way, releases cold from the muscle layer. So it is not a

wind-cold formula for an acute and uncomplicated wind-cold invasion.

 

Thanks again,

 

Hugo

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks Hugo,

 

You wrote that Gui zhi tang is not for " acute and uncomplicated wind-cold

invasion... "

Please elaborate on this..

 

K

 

 

 

On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 5:54 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:

 

>

>

> Hi John, thanks for a great post:

>

> I'll write a little more later, but I just wanted to remind you that my

> point is about the chicken, and a common modern cultural practice of eating

> chicken soup for wind-cold and wind-heat. Does every chicken meal have a

> pungent aspect to it? Not many I've seen - and a little mint doesn't cut it.

>

> Gui Zhi Tang, by the way, releases cold from the muscle layer. So it is not

> a wind-cold formula for an acute and uncomplicated wind-cold invasion.

>

> Thanks again,

>

>

> Hugo

>

> ________________________________

> Hugo Ramiro

> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> http://www.middlemedicine.org

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi John!

 

If we drag out Bensky's materia and look up GZT in the section " formulas that

release exterior cold " we find the following:

 

Indications:

Fever and chills unrelived by sweating

*headache*

aversion to wind

*stiff neck*

nasal congestion

a thin, white and moist tongue coating

a floating pulse that is either moderate or *frail*.

*may also be used for a similar presentation in patients recovering from serious

illness or after childbirth*

 

So, a lot of pointers toward deficiency and penetration of the pathogen beneath

the wei level in the indications.

 

If we look at the " Action " as listed in the same book:

 

Actions: Releases pathogenic influences from the muscle layer and regulates the

nutritive and protective qi.

 

Again, this is not an uncomplicated and acute wind-cold attack. This is an

influence that has penetrated to the muscle layer, definitely needs to be

regulated out, and with a potential deficiency status in the patient.

 

If we compare this formula to Cong Chi Tang, which is a basic formula for the

very first stage of wind attack, be it hot or cold, we can see many differences

in function and how that function is carried out. Actions of CCT: " Unblocks the

yang qi in the exterior and induces sweating " . From the indications: " This is

the first stage of an externally-contracted wind-cold or wind-heat disorder.

[...] Since this is the earliest stage of the disorder, all of the signs and

symptoms are mild " .

All the listed symptomology is mild and resides on the exterior level.

 

We can then drag out Ren Shen Bai Du Tang to discuss the treatment of wind-cold

complicated by qi deficiency. Actions are listed as: Releases the exterior,

dispels wind and dampness, and augments the qi. The indications section points

out that,

" The floating, soggy quality of the pulse reflects the deficiency of qi which

is the salient aspect of this disorder. "

 

Finally, to go back to the chicken, if we classify it as warm and sweet,

tonifying the blood and qi, then it could be a part of treatment for external

wind-cold with underlying blood and/or yin deficiency, a formula for which is

Cong Bai Qi Wei Yin. The actions listed are: " Nourishes the blood and releases

the exterior " . From the fomula analysis: " This formula is carefully balanced to

avoid excessive releasing action (which would exhaust the blood or yin) and

excessive tonification (which would cause retention of the pathogenic

influences) " .

 

By the way, I enjoyed reading about the Korean creation myth where the Bear

comes out of the cave with artemisia and garlic in each hand. Meaning is an

amazing thing.

 

Thanks,

Hugo

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

<johnkokko

Chinese Medicine

Sat, 14 November, 2009 11:34:23

Re: Prevention Protocol of swine flu-H1N1-Mrs Walkers's Chicken

Soup

 

Thanks Hugo,

 

You wrote that Gui zhi tang is not for " acute and uncomplicated wind-cold

invasion... "

Please elaborate on this..

 

K

 

 

 

On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 5:54 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:

 

>

>

> Hi John, thanks for a great post:

>

> I'll write a little more later, but I just wanted to remind you that my

> point is about the chicken, and a common modern cultural practice of eating

> chicken soup for wind-cold and wind-heat. Does every chicken meal have a

> pungent aspect to it? Not many I've seen - and a little mint doesn't cut it.

>

> Gui Zhi Tang, by the way, releases cold from the muscle layer. So it is not

> a wind-cold formula for an acute and uncomplicated wind-cold invasion.

>

> Thanks again,

>

>

> Hugo

>

> ________________________________

> Hugo Ramiro

> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> http://www.middlemedicine.org

>

>

[Guest guest]

Andrea Beth,

 

I think you are right about the traditional widom. I remember watching a tv

series about why the polish adore lard. It helps to store fat to survive snowy

winter. I have to say this: lard is much healthier than other sources of oil,

peanut, sunflower, corn, etc. Not only it will not increase cholesterol level,

it is environmentally-friendly.

 

Sung, Yuk-ming

[Guest guest]

John,

In most situations, I would agree with what you say below, but there is also

the phenomenon of 厲氣 li qi/epidemic qi and 瘟疫 wen yi/pestilence in warm

disease theory, where even healthy people may succumb to what Wu You-xing called

" a strange sort of evil qi that lives between heaven and earth " . It is more

common during famines, natural disasters, and extreme weather patterns. With

the state of the earth from environmental damage and hideous animal raising

practices, it is no surprise that we are seeing more epidemics spreading the

globe. .

 

 

On Nov 14, 2009, at 4:04 AM, wrote:

 

> If we're going to stick to Chinese medicine, the wind-cold is not about a

> virus, but our bodies relation to the outside world... regulating the ying

> and the wei. Is our purpose to fight the virus or to strengthen our body in

> relation the the myriad viruses, molds, bacteria and parasites that are

> everywhere at all times. We can't live in a sterile bubble, nor would we

> want to fight mother nature, which we are in-extricably linked with. That's

> why I think that the whole chicken mixed with pungent herbs can be extremely

> useful for this type of condition.

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Z'ev,

I agree that there is a place for the " toxic medicinals " ,

but 90+% of the time, the Shen nong ben cao jing Lower-class medicinals,

such as Lian qiao are prescribed when an Upper-class medicinals,

such as Gui zhi should be....

 

Yin qiao san was made for mumps and measles, these epidemic diseases,

not for the common-cold.

 

Cold and toxic medicinals are depleting the people of their yang Qi.

 

Isn't this a similar context where Huang Di asked Qi Bo to teach him the

ways of acupuncture, in order to save the hundred families " who endure the

poison of medicines?

(Ling shu Issue 1 Verse 1)

 

K

 

 

 

 

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 12:49 PM, <zrosenbewrote:

 

>

>

> John,

> In most situations, I would agree with what you say below, but there is

> also the phenomenon of ¼F®ð li qi/epidemic qi and ½E¬Ì wen yi/pestilence in

warm

> disease theory, where even healthy people may succumb to what Wu You-xing

> called " a strange sort of evil qi that lives between heaven and earth " . It

> is more common during famines, natural disasters, and extreme weather

> patterns. With the state of the earth from environmental damage and hideous

> animal raising practices, it is no surprise that we are seeing more

> epidemics spreading the globe. .

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hugo,

Yes... a profound tautology is " finding meaning is the meaning of life. "

 

I agree that Gui zhi tang is for underlying deficiency,

but are you saying that Gui zhi tang is not for " acute wind-cold attack " ?

 

K

 

On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:

 

>

>

> Hi John!

>

> If we drag out Bensky's materia and look up GZT in the section " formulas

> that release exterior cold " we find the following:

>

> Indications:

> Fever and chills unrelived by sweating

> *headache*

> aversion to wind

> *stiff neck*

> nasal congestion

> a thin, white and moist tongue coating

> a floating pulse that is either moderate or *frail*.

> *may also be used for a similar presentation in patients recovering from

> serious illness or after childbirth*

>

> So, a lot of pointers toward deficiency and penetration of the pathogen

> beneath the wei level in the indications.

>

> If we look at the " Action " as listed in the same book:

>

> Actions: Releases pathogenic influences from the muscle layer and regulates

> the nutritive and protective qi.

>

> Again, this is not an uncomplicated and acute wind-cold attack. This is an

> influence that has penetrated to the muscle layer, definitely needs to be

> regulated out, and with a potential deficiency status in the patient.

>

> If we compare this formula to Cong Chi Tang, which is a basic formula for

> the very first stage of wind attack, be it hot or cold, we can see many

> differences in function and how that function is carried out. Actions of

> CCT: " Unblocks the yang qi in the exterior and induces sweating " . From the

> indications: " This is the first stage of an externally-contracted wind-cold

> or wind-heat disorder. [...] Since this is the earliest stage of the

> disorder, all of the signs and symptoms are mild " .

> All the listed symptomology is mild and resides on the exterior level.

>

> We can then drag out Ren Shen Bai Du Tang to discuss the treatment of

> wind-cold complicated by qi deficiency. Actions are listed as: Releases the

> exterior, dispels wind and dampness, and augments the qi. The indications

> section points out that,

> " The floating, soggy quality of the pulse reflects the deficiency of qi

> which is the salient aspect of this disorder. "

>

> Finally, to go back to the chicken, if we classify it as warm and sweet,

> tonifying the blood and qi, then it could be a part of treatment for

> external wind-cold with underlying blood and/or yin deficiency, a formula

> for which is Cong Bai Qi Wei Yin. The actions listed are: " Nourishes the

> blood and releases the exterior " . From the fomula analysis: " This formula is

> carefully balanced to avoid excessive releasing action (which would exhaust

> the blood or yin) and excessive tonification (which would cause retention of

> the pathogenic influences) " .

>

> By the way, I enjoyed reading about the Korean creation myth where the Bear

> comes out of the cave with artemisia and garlic in each hand. Meaning is an

> amazing thing.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Hugo

>

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

John,

Of course I am in agreement with you. Right now as we speak, I am teaching

the Wen Bing portion of the Shang Han Lun/Wen Bing course at Pacific College of

OM/San Diego. We are discussing the differences between wind strike/zhong feng,

shang han/cold damage, and wen bing/warm disease as mentioned in the first

chapters of Shang Han Lun.

 

I agree that indiscriminate use of cold and toxic medicinals deplete yang qi,

especially in our modern society, where many pharmaceuticals do just that. We

shouldn't imitate biomedicine by 'reducing fever and inflammation' with cold

bitter draining medicinals. Yin qiao san and the like are used too often, and I

myself prefer the use of such scripts as gui zhi tang. However, I do often find

that small doses of yin qiao san do seem to resolve epidemic evils such as H1N1

flu, or in people who have been exposed who develop floating rapid pulses and

reddening tongues. There are many factors to consider in every case, such as

constitution, season (we are now transitioning to winter, so cases of cold, flu,

bronchitis seem to be increasing), symptom pattern, etc. So we should never

just pick a formula mechanically.

 

 

On Nov 17, 2009, at 6:40 PM, wrote:

 

> Z'ev,

> I agree that there is a place for the " toxic medicinals " ,

> but 90+% of the time, the Shen nong ben cao jing Lower-class medicinals,

> such as Lian qiao are prescribed when an Upper-class medicinals,

> such as Gui zhi should be....

>

> Yin qiao san was made for mumps and measles, these epidemic diseases,

> not for the common-cold.

>

> Cold and toxic medicinals are depleting the people of their yang Qi.

>

> Isn't this a similar context where Huang Di asked Qi Bo to teach him the

> ways of acupuncture, in order to save the hundred families " who endure the

> poison of medicines?

> (Ling shu Issue 1 Verse 1)

>

> K

>

> On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 12:49 PM, <zrosenbewrote:

>

> >

> >

> > John,

> > In most situations, I would agree with what you say below, but there is

> > also the phenomenon of 厲氣 li qi/epidemic qi and 瘟疫 wen yi/pestilence

in warm

> > disease theory, where even healthy people may succumb to what Wu You-xing

> > called " a strange sort of evil qi that lives between heaven and earth " . It

> > is more common during famines, natural disasters, and extreme weather

> > patterns. With the state of the earth from environmental damage and hideous

> > animal raising practices, it is no surprise that we are seeing more

> > epidemics spreading the globe. .

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi John, I have defined my terms exhaustively and provided examples from

unimpeachable sources. GZT is not for acute wind-cold attack with it being

understood, as I have already explained, that acute wind-cold is equal to first

stage wind-cold, i.e., the first thing that happens when an EPF attempts to

penetrate our jade screen. See my previous post.

 

To be honest, I have found myself a little confounded at how much resistance

there has been to a simple theretical statement. I understand that to some

extent we are speaking at odds and talking about different things, but I have

tried, time and again, to bring the conversation back to my original point,

which is the first stage of EPF attack. This is a theretical consideration

*first*, with a potential discussion surrounding the practicalites of it that

can come *second*. In my eyes, this conversation has been " cart before the

horse " .

 

Just tryin' to be clear,

Hugo

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

<johnkokko

Chinese Medicine

Tue, 17 November, 2009 21:59:19

Re: Prevention Protocol of swine flu-H1N1-Mrs Walkers's Chicken

Soup

 

 

Hugo,

Yes... a profound tautology is " finding meaning is the meaning of life. "

 

I agree that Gui zhi tang is for underlying deficiency,

but are you saying that Gui zhi tang is not for " acute wind-cold attack " ?

 

K

 

On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor > wrote:

 

>

>

> Hi John!

>

> If we drag out Bensky's materia and look up GZT in the section " formulas

> that release exterior cold " we find the following:

>

> Indications:

> Fever and chills unrelived by sweating

> *headache*

> aversion to wind

> *stiff neck*

> nasal congestion

> a thin, white and moist tongue coating

> a floating pulse that is either moderate or *frail*.

> *may also be used for a similar presentation in patients recovering from

> serious illness or after childbirth*

>

> So, a lot of pointers toward deficiency and penetration of the pathogen

> beneath the wei level in the indications.

>

> If we look at the " Action " as listed in the same book:

>

> Actions: Releases pathogenic influences from the muscle layer and regulates

> the nutritive and protective qi.

>

> Again, this is not an uncomplicated and acute wind-cold attack. This is an

> influence that has penetrated to the muscle layer, definitely needs to be

> regulated out, and with a potential deficiency status in the patient.

>

> If we compare this formula to Cong Chi Tang, which is a basic formula for

> the very first stage of wind attack, be it hot or cold, we can see many

> differences in function and how that function is carried out. Actions of

> CCT: " Unblocks the yang qi in the exterior and induces sweating " . From the

> indications: " This is the first stage of an externally-contract ed wind-cold

> or wind-heat disorder. [...] Since this is the earliest stage of the

> disorder, all of the signs and symptoms are mild " .

> All the listed symptomology is mild and resides on the exterior level.

>

> We can then drag out Ren Shen Bai Du Tang to discuss the treatment of

> wind-cold complicated by qi deficiency. Actions are listed as: Releases the

> exterior, dispels wind and dampness, and augments the qi. The indications

> section points out that,

> " The floating, soggy quality of the pulse reflects the deficiency of qi

> which is the salient aspect of this disorder. "

>

> Finally, to go back to the chicken, if we classify it as warm and sweet,

> tonifying the blood and qi, then it could be a part of treatment for

> external wind-cold with underlying blood and/or yin deficiency, a formula

> for which is Cong Bai Qi Wei Yin. The actions listed are: " Nourishes the

> blood and releases the exterior " . From the fomula analysis: " This formula is

> carefully balanced to avoid excessive releasing action (which would exhaust

> the blood or yin) and excessive tonification (which would cause retention of

> the pathogenic influences) " .

>

> By the way, I enjoyed reading about the Korean creation myth where the Bear

> comes out of the cave with artemisia and garlic in each hand. Meaning is an

> amazing thing.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Hugo

>

>

>

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hugo,

As I recall a EPF can attack any layer of the body directly, so what is your

source that it goes after the tai yang first?

I agree that it might be more common but we often have patients that lack these

sign/symptoms.

Muddying the waters,

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

Chinese Medicine

subincor

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:03:34 +0000

Re: Prevention Protocol of swine flu-H1N1-Mrs Walkers's Chicken

Soup

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi John, I have defined my terms exhaustively and provided examples from

unimpeachable sources. GZT is not for acute wind-cold attack with it being

understood, as I have already explained, that acute wind-cold is equal to first

stage wind-cold, i.e., the first thing that happens when an EPF attempts to

penetrate our jade screen. See my previous post.

 

 

 

To be honest, I have found myself a little confounded at how much resistance

there has been to a simple theretical statement. I understand that to some

extent we are speaking at odds and talking about different things, but I have

tried, time and again, to bring the conversation back to my original point,

which is the first stage of EPF attack. This is a theretical consideration

*first*, with a potential discussion surrounding the practicalites of it that

can come *second*. In my eyes, this conversation has been " cart before the

horse " .

 

 

 

Just tryin' to be clear,

 

Hugo

 

 

 

________________________________

 

Hugo Ramiro

 

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

 

http://www.middlemedicine.org

 

 

 

________________________________

 

<johnkokko

 

Chinese Medicine

 

Tue, 17 November, 2009 21:59:19

 

Re: Prevention Protocol of swine flu-H1N1-Mrs Walkers's Chicken

Soup

 

 

 

Hugo,

 

Yes... a profound tautology is " finding meaning is the meaning of life. "

 

 

 

I agree that Gui zhi tang is for underlying deficiency,

 

but are you saying that Gui zhi tang is not for " acute wind-cold attack " ?

 

 

 

K

 

 

 

On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor > wrote:

 

 

 

>

 

>

 

> Hi John!

 

>

 

> If we drag out Bensky's materia and look up GZT in the section " formulas

 

> that release exterior cold " we find the following:

 

>

 

> Indications:

 

> Fever and chills unrelived by sweating

 

> *headache*

 

> aversion to wind

 

> *stiff neck*

 

> nasal congestion

 

> a thin, white and moist tongue coating

 

> a floating pulse that is either moderate or *frail*.

 

> *may also be used for a similar presentation in patients recovering from

 

> serious illness or after childbirth*

 

>

 

> So, a lot of pointers toward deficiency and penetration of the pathogen

 

> beneath the wei level in the indications.

 

>

 

> If we look at the " Action " as listed in the same book:

 

>

 

> Actions: Releases pathogenic influences from the muscle layer and regulates

 

> the nutritive and protective qi.

 

>

 

> Again, this is not an uncomplicated and acute wind-cold attack. This is an

 

> influence that has penetrated to the muscle layer, definitely needs to be

 

> regulated out, and with a potential deficiency status in the patient.

 

>

 

> If we compare this formula to Cong Chi Tang, which is a basic formula for

 

> the very first stage of wind attack, be it hot or cold, we can see many

 

> differences in function and how that function is carried out. Actions of

 

> CCT: " Unblocks the yang qi in the exterior and induces sweating " . From the

 

> indications: " This is the first stage of an externally-contract ed wind-cold

 

> or wind-heat disorder. [...] Since this is the earliest stage of the

 

> disorder, all of the signs and symptoms are mild " .

 

> All the listed symptomology is mild and resides on the exterior level.

 

>

 

> We can then drag out Ren Shen Bai Du Tang to discuss the treatment of

 

> wind-cold complicated by qi deficiency. Actions are listed as: Releases the

 

> exterior, dispels wind and dampness, and augments the qi. The indications

 

> section points out that,

 

> " The floating, soggy quality of the pulse reflects the deficiency of qi

 

> which is the salient aspect of this disorder. "

 

>

 

> Finally, to go back to the chicken, if we classify it as warm and sweet,

 

> tonifying the blood and qi, then it could be a part of treatment for

 

> external wind-cold with underlying blood and/or yin deficiency, a formula

 

> for which is Cong Bai Qi Wei Yin. The actions listed are: " Nourishes the

 

> blood and releases the exterior " . From the fomula analysis: " This formula is

 

> carefully balanced to avoid excessive releasing action (which would exhaust

 

> the blood or yin) and excessive tonification (which would cause retention of

 

> the pathogenic influences) " .

 

>

 

> By the way, I enjoyed reading about the Korean creation myth where the Bear

 

> comes out of the cave with artemisia and garlic in each hand. Meaning is an

 

> amazing thing.

 

>

 

> Thanks,

 

>

 

> Hugo

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Mike, please refer my post re formulas and their construction.

This discussion is not about the order that EPFs attack (nor did I make any

exclusive statements about that), but strictly regards the following question:

 

" Do we apply sinking, internalizing medicinals in cases of uncomplicated, acute

wind-cold attack? " (and I further dfined this, referring to Cong Chi Tang and

its indications as a representative treatment for mild, first stage EPF)

 

I am not prepared to discuss any questions other than the one above under the

banner of this thread.

 

 

Thanks,

Hugo

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Wed, 18 November, 2009 14:29:02

RE: Prevention Protocol of swine flu-H1N1-Mrs Walkers's Chicken

Soup

 

 

Hugo,

As I recall a EPF can attack any layer of the body directly, so what is your

source that it goes after the tai yang first?

I agree that it might be more common but we often have patients that lack these

sign/symptoms.

Muddying the waters,

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

Chinese Medicine

subincor

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:03:34 +0000

Re: Prevention Protocol of swine flu-H1N1-Mrs Walkers's Chicken

Soup

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi John, I have defined my terms exhaustively and provided examples from

unimpeachable sources. GZT is not for acute wind-cold attack with it being

understood, as I have already explained, that acute wind-cold is equal to first

stage wind-cold, i.e., the first thing that happens when an EPF attempts to

penetrate our jade screen. See my previous post.

 

 

 

To be honest, I have found myself a little confounded at how much resistance

there has been to a simple theretical statement. I understand that to some

extent we are speaking at odds and talking about different things, but I have

tried, time and again, to bring the conversation back to my original point,

which is the first stage of EPF attack. This is a theretical consideration

*first*, with a potential discussion surrounding the practicalites of it that

can come *second*. In my eyes, this conversation has been " cart before the

horse " .

 

 

 

Just tryin' to be clear,

 

Hugo

 

 

 

________________________________

 

Hugo Ramiro

 

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

 

http://www.middlemedicine.org

 

 

 

________________________________

 

<johnkokko

 

Chinese Medicine

 

Tue, 17 November, 2009 21:59:19

 

Re: Prevention Protocol of swine flu-H1N1-Mrs Walkers's Chicken

Soup

 

 

 

Hugo,

 

Yes... a profound tautology is " finding meaning is the meaning of life. "

 

 

 

I agree that Gui zhi tang is for underlying deficiency,

 

but are you saying that Gui zhi tang is not for " acute wind-cold attack " ?

 

 

 

K

 

 

 

On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor > wrote:

 

 

 

>

 

>

 

> Hi John!

 

>

 

> If we drag out Bensky's materia and look up GZT in the section " formulas

 

> that release exterior cold " we find the following:

 

>

 

> Indications:

 

> Fever and chills unrelived by sweating

 

> *headache*

 

> aversion to wind

 

> *stiff neck*

 

> nasal congestion

 

> a thin, white and moist tongue coating

 

> a floating pulse that is either moderate or *frail*.

 

> *may also be used for a similar presentation in patients recovering from

 

> serious illness or after childbirth*

 

>

 

> So, a lot of pointers toward deficiency and penetration of the pathogen

 

> beneath the wei level in the indications.

 

>

 

> If we look at the " Action " as listed in the same book:

 

>

 

> Actions: Releases pathogenic influences from the muscle layer and regulates

 

> the nutritive and protective qi.

 

>

 

> Again, this is not an uncomplicated and acute wind-cold attack. This is an

 

> influence that has penetrated to the muscle layer, definitely needs to be

 

> regulated out, and with a potential deficiency status in the patient.

 

>

 

> If we compare this formula to Cong Chi Tang, which is a basic formula for

 

> the very first stage of wind attack, be it hot or cold, we can see many

 

> differences in function and how that function is carried out. Actions of

 

> CCT: " Unblocks the yang qi in the exterior and induces sweating " . From the

 

> indications: " This is the first stage of an externally-contract ed wind-cold

 

> or wind-heat disorder. [...] Since this is the earliest stage of the

 

> disorder, all of the signs and symptoms are mild " .

 

> All the listed symptomology is mild and resides on the exterior level.

 

>

 

> We can then drag out Ren Shen Bai Du Tang to discuss the treatment of

 

> wind-cold complicated by qi deficiency. Actions are listed as: Releases the

 

> exterior, dispels wind and dampness, and augments the qi. The indications

 

> section points out that,

 

> " The floating, soggy quality of the pulse reflects the deficiency of qi

 

> which is the salient aspect of this disorder. "

 

>

 

> Finally, to go back to the chicken, if we classify it as warm and sweet,

 

> tonifying the blood and qi, then it could be a part of treatment for

 

> external wind-cold with underlying blood and/or yin deficiency, a formula

 

> for which is Cong Bai Qi Wei Yin. The actions listed are: " Nourishes the

 

> blood and releases the exterior " . From the fomula analysis: " This formula is

 

> carefully balanced to avoid excessive releasing action (which would exhaust

 

> the blood or yin) and excessive tonification (which would cause retention of

 

> the pathogenic influences) " .

 

>

 

> By the way, I enjoyed reading about the Korean creation myth where the Bear

 

> comes out of the cave with artemisia and garlic in each hand. Meaning is an

 

> amazing thing.

 

>

 

> Thanks,

 

>

 

> Hugo

 

>

 

>

 

>