Guest guest Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Hi all - I think I was a bit obscure in my earlier post, so I'll try to be clearer and ask again. The acupuncture tx seem to be doing the job, and the blood viscosity is returning to normal - which puts the patient and I in potential conflict with the Western docs, who have increased the dosage of coumadin. Does anyone have any thoughts about this? tx karen Karen R. Adams, Lic Ac, Dipl Ac 25 - 27 Bank Row Greenfield, MA 01301 413-768-8333 All shall be well and all shall be well and all manner of thing shall be well Julian of Norwich, 14th century British mystic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 Hi again Karen, When I was in school, one of my clinical supervisors made an important point that I have referred to again and again in my practice, and I think that it applies here, too: Any trauma scatters the blood and causes blood xu. Certainly that would be the case of a Vietnam vet with PTSD. I would suggest continuing what you are doing, and assuming that there aren't other contraindications, I would prescribe Si Wu Tang, and perhaps add to it Dan Shen. I think that that kind of formula will complement what you are doing, and by strengthening and gently moving the blood, I think that the viscosity of the blood will also gently thin, hopefully mitigating the need for using rat poison, I mean coumadin. ________________________________ turusachan <turusachan Chinese Medicine Wed, October 28, 2009 1:52:01 PM coumadin question reworded Hi all - I think I was a bit obscure in my earlier post, so I'll try to be clearer and ask again. The acupuncture tx seem to be doing the job, and the blood viscosity is returning to normal - which puts the patient and I in potential conflict with the Western docs, who have increased the dosage of coumadin. Does anyone have any thoughts about this? tx karen Karen R. Adams, Lic Ac, Dipl Ac 25 - 27 Bank Row Greenfield, MA 01301 413-768-8333 All shall be well and all shall be well and all manner of thing shall be well Julian of Norwich, 14th century British mystic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 Thanks, Yehuda, for passing on your teacher's words. I knew about fear scattering qi, hadn't thought about its effect on blood. Presumably continuing as is will also sort out the arrhythmia... The situation is offering him an interesting choice: should he choose to increase the coumadin per doctor's orders, or trust that the acupuncture is doing what it's supposed to do? In other words, when you have conflicting modalities, how do you choose and who? k Karen R. Adams, Lic Ac, Dipl Ac 25 - 27 Bank Row Greenfield, MA 01301 413-768-8333 All shall be well and all shall be well and all manner of thing shall be well Julian of Norwich, 14th century British mystic ________________________________ Chinese Medicine Sun, November 1, 2009 2:17:30 AM Re: coumadin question reworded Hi again Karen, When I was in school, one of my clinical supervisors made an important point that I have referred to again and again in my practice, and I think that it applies here, too: Any trauma scatters the blood and causes blood xu. Certainly that would be the case of a Vietnam vet with PTSD. I would suggest continuing what you are doing, and assuming that there aren't other contraindications, I would prescribe Si Wu Tang, and perhaps add to it Dan Shen. I think that that kind of formula will complement what you are doing, and by strengthening and gently moving the blood, I think that the viscosity of the blood will also gently thin, hopefully mitigating the need for using rat poison, I mean coumadin. www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com ____________ _________ _________ __ turusachan <turusachan > Wed, October 28, 2009 1:52:01 PM coumadin question reworded Hi all - I think I was a bit obscure in my earlier post, so I'll try to be clearer and ask again. The acupuncture tx seem to be doing the job, and the blood viscosity is returning to normal - which puts the patient and I in potential conflict with the Western docs, who have increased the dosage of coumadin. Does anyone have any thoughts about this? tx karen Karen R. Adams, Lic Ac, Dipl Ac 25 - 27 Bank Row Greenfield, MA 01301 413-768-8333 All shall be well and all shall be well and all manner of thing shall be well Julian of Norwich, 14th century British mystic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 Karen wrote: Hi all - I think I was a bit obscure in my earlier post, so I'll try to be clearer and ask again. The acupuncture tx seem to be doing the job, and the blood viscosity is returning to normal - which puts the patient and I in potential conflict with the Western docs, who have increased the dosage of coumadin. Does anyone have any thoughts about this? Hi Karen, I'm a bit confused here. Usually a patient on Coumadin will have their blood viscosity tested regularly with western tests and the dose of the Coumadin will be adjusted in relation to this. So, I am wondering 1. How is it that you are determining that his blood viscosity is improving? What is your " blood thickness test " ? 2. If this is through western tests, why would the western docs increase the Coumadin if the viscosity is decreasing? 3. Is it that your own " blood thickness test " is in conflict with the western viscosity tests? Could you clarify? Thanks Sharon Sharon Weizenbaum 86 Henry Street Amherst, MA 01002 www.whitepinehealingarts.com Topics in Blog sweiz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 Hi Karen, Sharon and all: Sharon I am pretty sure that the blood viscosity is increasing instead of remaining thin as the blood docs want it to be. The tests that Karen refers to are the blood doc's tests. Karen, sometimes a patient simply has to choose a side as collaboration is impossible at times. In this case, I would consider the theory on the conventional side to be largely incorrect. To triage this case, get the following information: - what *exactly* is the coumadin being prescribed FOR? - what *exactly* is it supposed to DO for the patient and what *exactly* is it supposed to PREVENT? Then: - is the patient presenting with the " FOR " ? - does the patient currently need the " DO " ? - is the patient ACTUALLY at risk for the " PREVENT " ? Then do your background research: - find out what coumadin overdosage looks like, how long it can take to show up etc Then: - have a very frank and honest discussion with your patient, presenting him with all this information at one go (he may have to help you by getting certain answers directly from HIS docs) - tell him that all medicine must be prescribed based on presentation, not on theory, that theory only ever SUPPORTS presentation, and that if his coumadin is ever being given to him based on theory alone, that it will then endanger him. *ATTENTION*: THIS IS ALL OUT OF YOUR SCOPE OF PRACTICE. If, for some reason, this is within your scope, disregard the following. If it is not, then understand that you can still find this information and parse it clearly for yourself, and then present it creatively to your patient so that it doesn't sound like medical advice or recommendation, or even use the word " coumadin " . I am sure you patient is intelligent enough to understand the principles, especially when you tell him that you are going to present clinical information from CM that impacts his interface with WM. I would recommend a lot of caution. Note: I strongly recommend that you correctly assess whether this patient is reliable or not. If they are on your side discuss all the possibilities of heart attacks and stroke / embolisms (which is what his docs are going to scare him with). Be sure you are crystal clear on everything. He will probably need time to process all this. Let's say then that all the above goes well and you are understood with the patient. Let's hope that the patient has a sympathetic ear with at least one of his docs (because he will need to wean off the coumadin under supervision). If there is a sympathetic doc, try to open a general line of communication with them. Describe to them, simply in terms of patient's experienced signs and symptoms what has changed, and then say that the patient is concerned regarding coumadin, then say thank you for your time, I just thought you might want to know what has been happening. You may need to repeat this once or twice, each time describing further changes strictly in the style of clinical observations of signs and symptoms. Take it from there. Hope this helps, be careful, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ sharon weizenbaum <sweiz Chinese Medicine Sun, 1 November, 2009 7:56:15 Re: coumadin question reworded Karen wrote: Hi all - I think I was a bit obscure in my earlier post, so I'll try to be clearer and ask again. The acupuncture tx seem to be doing the job, and the blood viscosity is returning to normal - which puts the patient and I in potential conflict with the Western docs, who have increased the dosage of coumadin. Does anyone have any thoughts about this? Hi Karen, I'm a bit confused here. Usually a patient on Coumadin will have their blood viscosity tested regularly with western tests and the dose of the Coumadin will be adjusted in relation to this. So, I am wondering 1. How is it that you are determining that his blood viscosity is improving? What is your " blood thickness test " ? 2. If this is through western tests, why would the western docs increase the Coumadin if the viscosity is decreasing? 3. Is it that your own " blood thickness test " is in conflict with the western viscosity tests? Could you clarify? Thanks Sharon Sharon Weizenbaum 86 Henry Street Amherst, MA 01002 www.whitepinehealin garts.com Topics in Blog sweiz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 You are way out of your scope of practice, not only dangerous to this patient yourself but all acupuncturists everywhere. His doc put him on it for somekind of blood viscousity problem, atrial fib, TIA's DVTs stroke or something. Once on it, it takes skill to get him off. If he really wants off of coumadin, send him to a doc that can manage him with labs. It is possible to get him off the coumadin (rat poison) and onto nattokinase or something else but he needs someone that knows what he is doing or you could kill him. Studys show even taking a patient off aspirin can cause serious complications --- On Sun, 11/1/09, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: Hugo Ramiro <subincor Re: Re: coumadin question reworded Chinese Medicine Sunday, November 1, 2009, 10:23 AM Hi Karen, Sharon and all: Sharon I am pretty sure that the blood viscosity is increasing instead of remaining thin as the blood docs want it to be. The tests that Karen refers to are the blood doc's tests. Karen, sometimes a patient simply has to choose a side as collaboration is impossible at times. In this case, I would consider the theory on the conventional side to be largely incorrect. To triage this case, get the following information: - what *exactly* is the coumadin being prescribed FOR? - what *exactly* is it supposed to DO for the patient and what *exactly* is it supposed to PREVENT? Then: - is the patient presenting with the " FOR " ? - does the patient currently need the " DO " ? - is the patient ACTUALLY at risk for the " PREVENT " ? Then do your background research: - find out what coumadin overdosage looks like, how long it can take to show up etc Then: - have a very frank and honest discussion with your patient, presenting him with all this information at one go (he may have to help you by getting certain answers directly from HIS docs) - tell him that all medicine must be prescribed based on presentation, not on theory, that theory only ever SUPPORTS presentation, and that if his coumadin is ever being given to him based on theory alone, that it will then endanger him. *ATTENTION*: THIS IS ALL OUT OF YOUR SCOPE OF PRACTICE. If, for some reason, this is within your scope, disregard the following. If it is not, then understand that you can still find this information and parse it clearly for yourself, and then present it creatively to your patient so that it doesn't sound like medical advice or recommendation, or even use the word " coumadin " . I am sure you patient is intelligent enough to understand the principles, especially when you tell him that you are going to present clinical information from CM that impacts his interface with WM. I would recommend a lot of caution. Note: I strongly recommend that you correctly assess whether this patient is reliable or not. If they are on your side discuss all the possibilities of heart attacks and stroke / embolisms (which is what his docs are going to scare him with). Be sure you are crystal clear on everything. He will probably need time to process all this. Let's say then that all the above goes well and you are understood with the patient. Let's hope that the patient has a sympathetic ear with at least one of his docs (because he will need to wean off the coumadin under supervision) . If there is a sympathetic doc, try to open a general line of communication with them. Describe to them, simply in terms of patient's experienced signs and symptoms what has changed, and then say that the patient is concerned regarding coumadin, then say thank you for your time, I just thought you might want to know what has been happening. You may need to repeat this once or twice, each time describing further changes strictly in the style of clinical observations of signs and symptoms. Take it from there. Hope this helps, be careful, Hugo ____________ _________ _________ __ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com http://www.middleme dicine.org ____________ _________ _________ __ sharon weizenbaum <sweiz Sun, 1 November, 2009 7:56:15 Re: coumadin question reworded Karen wrote: Hi all - I think I was a bit obscure in my earlier post, so I'll try to be clearer and ask again. The acupuncture tx seem to be doing the job, and the blood viscosity is returning to normal - which puts the patient and I in potential conflict with the Western docs, who have increased the dosage of coumadin. Does anyone have any thoughts about this? Hi Karen, I'm a bit confused here. Usually a patient on Coumadin will have their blood viscosity tested regularly with western tests and the dose of the Coumadin will be adjusted in relation to this. So, I am wondering 1. How is it that you are determining that his blood viscosity is improving? What is your " blood thickness test " ? 2. If this is through western tests, why would the western docs increase the Coumadin if the viscosity is decreasing? 3. Is it that your own " blood thickness test " is in conflict with the western viscosity tests? Could you clarify? Thanks Sharon Sharon Weizenbaum 86 Henry Street Amherst, MA 01002 www.whitepinehealin garts.com Topics in Blog sweiz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 I always encourage my patients to cover themselves both ways and not go on faith. Though his pulses may show improvement, it has to be manifested by his bloodwork and how he feels. As such, I would strongly suggest using the herbs I mentioned as an adjunct to the acupuncture. Suggest to him, perhaps, to have him use the formulas for a week or two, and see if there is any change to the viscosity of his blood. Ask him what the big hurry is? 'Nam was over 35 years ago, why not wait to see if you can make a difference without increasing the Coumadin. If he still wants to take it immediately, encourage him to do whatever he likes, but also encourage him to take the herbs simultaneously, monitoring his INR levels. Be supportive. If he views you as an ally he will more willingly listen. Good luck! ________________________________ Karen Adams <turusachan Chinese Medicine Sun, November 1, 2009 3:19:26 AM Re: coumadin question reworded Thanks, Yehuda, for passing on your teacher's words. I knew about fear scattering qi, hadn't thought about its effect on blood. Presumably continuing as is will also sort out the arrhythmia.. . The situation is offering him an interesting choice: should he choose to increase the coumadin per doctor's orders, or trust that the acupuncture is doing what it's supposed to do? In other words, when you have conflicting modalities, how do you choose and who? k Karen R. Adams, Lic Ac, Dipl Ac 25 - 27 Bank Row Greenfield, MA 01301 413-768-8333 All shall be well and all shall be well and all manner of thing shall be well Julian of Norwich, 14th century British mystic ____________ _________ _________ __ > Sun, November 1, 2009 2:17:30 AM Re: coumadin question reworded Hi again Karen, When I was in school, one of my clinical supervisors made an important point that I have referred to again and again in my practice, and I think that it applies here, too: Any trauma scatters the blood and causes blood xu. Certainly that would be the case of a Vietnam vet with PTSD. I would suggest continuing what you are doing, and assuming that there aren't other contraindications, I would prescribe Si Wu Tang, and perhaps add to it Dan Shen. I think that that kind of formula will complement what you are doing, and by strengthening and gently moving the blood, I think that the viscosity of the blood will also gently thin, hopefully mitigating the need for using rat poison, I mean coumadin. www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com ____________ _________ _________ __ turusachan <turusachan> Wed, October 28, 2009 1:52:01 PM coumadin question reworded Hi all - I think I was a bit obscure in my earlier post, so I'll try to be clearer and ask again. The acupuncture tx seem to be doing the job, and the blood viscosity is returning to normal - which puts the patient and I in potential conflict with the Western docs, who have increased the dosage of coumadin. Does anyone have any thoughts about this? tx karen Karen R. Adams, Lic Ac, Dipl Ac 25 - 27 Bank Row Greenfield, MA 01301 413-768-8333 All shall be well and all shall be well and all manner of thing shall be well Julian of Norwich, 14th century British mystic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 Hi Sharon - the test is the INR, and my understanding is as Hugh said: normal is 1, docs who prescribe coumadin as a stroke prevention want to see the level at 2 - 3. My patient's level of viscosity has gradually been moving back to 1 since we started treatment (no herbs, btw). Hence the increase in prescribed dosage. The viscosity is not as thin as they want it to be for someone who's heart may not be/isn't completely emptying the chambers because of the abnormal rhythm of the muscle. I understand the thinking to be if there is blood remaining in the heart, it may clot and could cause a stroke. Hugo, thanks for the very useful outline. 'Exactly' is being described through the patient, and I'm not sure he's entirely clear on all the medical stuff. He has not noticed any symptoms, nor has he ever; the afib was discovered 6 years ago when he was getting a workup for a hernia operation. The docs are VA docs; he hasn't told them he's having acupuncture. He seems knowledgeable about diet, avoiding/minimizing vegetables (I understand the theory on that, vit K, but - parenthetically - that seems screwy...). The only thing he says has changed is the acupuncture. He exercises 3 - 4 hours/day (weights, mostly), often takes late night walks when the nightmares are too bad. He hasn't had a complete night's sleep since he came home from Nam. Yehuda, sorry, I don't prescribe herbs, mostly need help on deciding how to proceed. I can't set up treatments that won't promote balance just because that balance then brings him in conflict with the docs if you see what I mean. I don't think he's in a hurry about this; he's very willing to work with ac, he has noticed some stress reduction. Hugo's ideas about the conversation we're going to need to have are helpful. We're both just puzzled about the (so far) one measurable change that's shown up so far. I'd like him to get an ECG because I'm not sure the knotted pulse is a reflection of actual heart rhythm, which btw is not fast. Comments on that angle anyone? tx you all, this is good stuff. k Karen R. Adams, Lic Ac, Dipl Ac 25 - 27 Bank Row Greenfield, MA 01301 413-768-8333 All shall be well and all shall be well and all manner of thing shall be well Julian of Norwich, 14th century British mystic ________________________________ sharon weizenbaum <sweiz Chinese Medicine Sun, November 1, 2009 7:56:15 AM Re: coumadin question reworded Karen wrote: Hi all - I think I was a bit obscure in my earlier post, so I'll try to be clearer and ask again. The acupuncture tx seem to be doing the job, and the blood viscosity is returning to normal - which puts the patient and I in potential conflict with the Western docs, who have increased the dosage of coumadin. Does anyone have any thoughts about this? Hi Karen, I'm a bit confused here. Usually a patient on Coumadin will have their blood viscosity tested regularly with western tests and the dose of the Coumadin will be adjusted in relation to this. So, I am wondering 1. How is it that you are determining that his blood viscosity is improving? What is your " blood thickness test " ? 2. If this is through western tests, why would the western docs increase the Coumadin if the viscosity is decreasing? 3. Is it that your own " blood thickness test " is in conflict with the western viscosity tests? Could you clarify? Thanks Sharon Sharon Weizenbaum 86 Henry Street Amherst, MA 01002 www.whitepinehealin garts.com Topics in Blog sweiz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 Karen Your patient should pay attention to diet as there are various foods which either thicken or thin the blood. Need to also review supplements as they are also known to do either. Worked with a patient in the last year who had both mitral & tricuspid valve operated on using what is called the Davinci repair. Allopathic protocol with plastic valve replacement requires coumadin/blood thinners the rest of the patient's life but pig's valve and Davinci repair DO NOT. Yet the protocol appears to be to prescribe coumadin in ALL cases. My patient went nuts wanting OFF the rat poison and the MD finally acquiesced. The caustic nature of these meds were causing UC to return which had totally healed from previous herbal supplements years before. Patient also weaned herself without my intervention off 2 beta blockers and now takes only 1 Ayurvedic formula for BP and Heart rate called CARDITONE from Ayush Herbs. Richard In a message dated 11/1/2009 7:21:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, turusachan writes: Hi Sharon - the test is the INR, and my understanding is as Hugh said: normal is 1, docs who prescribe coumadin as a stroke prevention want to see the level at 2 - 3. My patient's level of viscosity has gradually been moving back to 1 since we started treatment (no herbs, btw). Hence the increase in prescribed dosage. The viscosity is not as thin as they want it to be for someone who's heart may not be/isn't completely emptying the chambers because of the abnormal rhythm of the muscle. I understand the thinking to be if there is blood remaining in the heart, it may clot and could cause a stroke. Hugo, thanks for the very useful outline. 'Exactly' is being described through the patient, and I'm not sure he's entirely clear on all the medical stuff. He has not noticed any symptoms, nor has he ever; the afib was discovered 6 years ago when he was getting a workup for a hernia operation. The docs are VA docs; he hasn't told them he's having acupuncture. He seems knowledgeable about diet, avoiding/minimizing vegetables (I understand the theory on that, vit K, but - parenthetically - that seems screwy...). The only thing he says has changed is the acupuncture. He exercises 3 - 4 hours/day (weights, mostly), often takes late night walks when the nightmares are too bad. He hasn't had a complete night's sleep since he came home from Nam. Yehuda, sorry, I don't prescribe herbs, mostly need help on deciding how to proceed. I can't set up treatments that won't promote balance just because that balance then brings him in conflict with the docs if you see what I mean. I don't think he's in a hurry about this; he's very willing to work with ac, he has noticed some stress reduction. Hugo's ideas about the conversation we're going to need to have are helpful. We're both just puzzled about the (so far) one measurable change that's shown up so far. I'd like him to get an ECG because I'm not sure the knotted pulse is a reflection of actual heart rhythm, which btw is not fast. Comments on that angle anyone? tx you all, this is good stuff. k Karen R. Adams, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 Chinese Medicine , Karen Adams <turusachan wrote: > I don't think he's in a hurry about this; he's very willing to work with ac, he has noticed some stress reduction. Hugo's ideas about the conversation we're going to need to have are helpful. We're both just puzzled about the (so far) one measurable change that's shown up so far. I'd like him to get an ECG because I'm not sure the knotted pulse is a reflection of actual heart rhythm, which btw is not fast. Comments on that angle anyone? Hi Karen my original response - some days ago - seems lost in the ethers. Yes, he defintiely needs an ECG - this will absolutely clarify if he is still in Atrial Fibrillation & /or Atrial Flutter [a related rhythm disturbance]. Biomedically speaking, AFib will not necessarily result in a fast pulse because the ventricles are pumping at their inherently slower rate, and picking up some but not all of the impulses from the sinus and/or sino-atrial nodes. The pulse refelcts ventricular activity, not atrial, when understood only in a biomedical context. Regular ECGs will enable both you and your patient to track how his heart's electrical-regulatory system responds in relation to your treatment over a period of time. Both his - and your - subjective and objective assessments and feedbacks will enable you to adjust and plan Rx accordingly, with ECGs providing further 'evidence' of efficacy of Rx. I spent 4 yrs of my RN career in a cardio-thoracic unit. It's very unusual for coumadin /warfarin to be prescribed in cases like this, unless there is cardiac ultasound or other evidence of actual clot in the atria. Without evidence of clot in atria, they're usually more likely to use aspirin, or similar 'less hardcore' anticoagulants. It's also unusual that the docs are not treating the AFib with one of the standard drugs for that disturbance. If they are, those drugs will mask and/or distort the pulses - from our perspective. Is your patient taking any other pharmaceutical meds? Any [potential] clotting in the atria is secondary to the dysfunction of the heart - it's inability to pump coherently. At a guess - without seeing him - I might view this as possibly a miscommunication between the Kidney and Heart - Fire/Water - due to the prolonged and repeated shocks , fear, and anxiety from his time in Vietnam. As you've observed, your treatments appear to be moving him towards harmony. I feel it is possible and appropriate for acupuncturists to provide Rx which is beneficial whilst folk are receiving western pharmaceuticals. In this case - if there is actual clotting in the atria - the coumadin is being used to clear an excess condition - Blood Stagnation - which is secondary to an underlying disharmony. I think I recall you've noticed a change in the tongue colouring away from purplish/stagnation? Acupuncture will work to address the underlying root. There's no reason acupuncture combined with appropriate lifestyle and mental activities can't help him achieve this. If the doctors haven't re-examined with ultasound or related imaging and functional tests - to see if clotting actually exist in the atria - then this man is not being medically well-managed. No clots in heart atria = no need for coumadin; it's as simple as that. If a patient is uncertain as to why and how doctors are managing their conditions, I always suggest they request a second opinion from an appropriate medical specialist. If this man's heart rhythm can be returned to sinus [normal] rhythm, the risk of clotting and life threatening embolism from a large clot in the heart - in particular a stroke / CVA - no longer exists. And therefore he should not require indefinite Rx with coumadin. One would hope the docs would ulimately move to aspirin, or similar anticoagulants if necessay. In which case appropriate herbal medicines should be a viable treatment. Hope this helps. Margi Macdonald Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 It's my understanding weather can thicken or thin the blood as well. For instance we here in Minnesota have thicker blood than people in Florida. Dunno if that would effect things, though. - <acudoc11 <Chinese Medicine > Monday, November 02, 2009 7:01 AM Re: Re: coumadin question reworded > Karen > > Your patient should pay attention to diet as there are various foods > which > either thicken or thin the blood. > Need to also review supplements as they are also known to do either. > > Worked with a patient in the last year who had both mitral & tricuspid > valve operated on using what is called the Davinci repair. > > Allopathic protocol with plastic valve replacement requires coumadin/blood > thinners the rest of the patient's life but pig's valve and Davinci repair > DO NOT. Yet the protocol appears to be to prescribe coumadin in ALL cases. > > My patient went nuts wanting OFF the rat poison and the MD finally > acquiesced. The caustic nature of these meds were causing UC to return > which had > totally healed from previous herbal supplements years before. > > Patient also weaned herself without my intervention off 2 beta blockers > and now takes only 1 Ayurvedic formula for BP and Heart rate called > CARDITONE > from Ayush Herbs. > > Richard > > > In a message dated 11/1/2009 7:21:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > turusachan writes: > > > > > Hi Sharon - the test is the INR, and my understanding is as Hugh said: > normal is 1, docs who prescribe coumadin as a stroke prevention want to > see > the level at 2 - 3. My patient's level of viscosity has gradually been > moving > back to 1 since we started treatment (no herbs, btw). Hence the increase > in > prescribed dosage. The viscosity is not as thin as they want it to be for > someone who's heart may not be/isn't completely emptying the chambers > because of the abnormal rhythm of the muscle. I understand the thinking > to be if > there is blood remaining in the heart, it may clot and could cause a > stroke. > > Hugo, thanks for the very useful outline. 'Exactly' is being described > through the patient, and I'm not sure he's entirely clear on all the > medical > stuff. He has not noticed any symptoms, nor has he ever; the afib was > discovered 6 years ago when he was getting a workup for a hernia > operation. The > docs are VA docs; he hasn't told them he's having acupuncture. He seems > knowledgeable about diet, avoiding/minimizing vegetables (I understand the > theory on that, vit K, but - parenthetically - that seems screwy...). The > only > thing he says has changed is the acupuncture. > > He exercises 3 - 4 hours/day (weights, mostly), often takes late night > walks when the nightmares are too bad. He hasn't had a complete night's > sleep > since he came home from Nam. > > Yehuda, sorry, I don't prescribe herbs, mostly need help on deciding how > to proceed. I can't set up treatments that won't promote balance just > because that balance then brings him in conflict with the docs if you see > what I > mean. > > I don't think he's in a hurry about this; he's very willing to work with > ac, he has noticed some stress reduction. Hugo's ideas about the > conversation we're going to need to have are helpful. We're both just > puzzled about > the (so far) one measurable change that's shown up so far. I'd like him > to > get an ECG because I'm not sure the knotted pulse is a reflection of > actual > heart rhythm, which btw is not fast. Comments on that angle anyone? > > tx you all, this is good stuff. > k > > Karen R. Adams, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Hi Margie - boy, this is weird, I just today (11/8) received a bunch of previously posted replies to my question about coumadin. You mentioned ether... Thanks for all your information. I know he's on some other meds; don't have the info at my fingertips. I don't think there were clots, but maybe... I have suggested he get another opinion and an ECG if he can. He's curious as well, since his pulses were much improved this week. k Karen R. Adams, Lic Ac, Dipl Ac 25 - 27 Bank Row Greenfield, MA 01301 413-768-8333 All shall be well and all shall be well and all manner of thing shall be well Julian of Norwich, 14th century British mystic ________________________________ margi.macdonald <margi.macdonald Chinese Medicine Mon, November 2, 2009 6:40:47 AM Re: coumadin question reworded Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Karen Adams <turusachan@ ....> wrote: > I don't think he's in a hurry about this; he's very willing to work with ac, he has noticed some stress reduction. Hugo's ideas about the conversation we're going to need to have are helpful. We're both just puzzled about the (so far) one measurable change that's shown up so far. I'd like him to get an ECG because I'm not sure the knotted pulse is a reflection of actual heart rhythm, which btw is not fast. Comments on that angle anyone? Hi Karen my original response - some days ago - seems lost in the ethers. Yes, he defintiely needs an ECG - this will absolutely clarify if he is still in Atrial Fibrillation & /or Atrial Flutter [a related rhythm disturbance] . Biomedically speaking, AFib will not necessarily result in a fast pulse because the ventricles are pumping at their inherently slower rate, and picking up some but not all of the impulses from the sinus and/or sino-atrial nodes. The pulse refelcts ventricular activity, not atrial, when understood only in a biomedical context. Regular ECGs will enable both you and your patient to track how his heart's electrical-regulato ry system responds in relation to your treatment over a period of time. Both his - and your - subjective and objective assessments and feedbacks will enable you to adjust and plan Rx accordingly, with ECGs providing further 'evidence' of efficacy of Rx. I spent 4 yrs of my RN career in a cardio-thoracic unit. It's very unusual for coumadin /warfarin to be prescribed in cases like this, unless there is cardiac ultasound or other evidence of actual clot in the atria. Without evidence of clot in atria, they're usually more likely to use aspirin, or similar 'less hardcore' anticoagulants. It's also unusual that the docs are not treating the AFib with one of the standard drugs for that disturbance. If they are, those drugs will mask and/or distort the pulses - from our perspective. Is your patient taking any other pharmaceutical meds? Any [potential] clotting in the atria is secondary to the dysfunction of the heart - it's inability to pump coherently. At a guess - without seeing him - I might view this as possibly a miscommunication between the Kidney and Heart - Fire/Water - due to the prolonged and repeated shocks , fear, and anxiety from his time in Vietnam. As you've observed, your treatments appear to be moving him towards harmony. I feel it is possible and appropriate for acupuncturists to provide Rx which is beneficial whilst folk are receiving western pharmaceuticals. In this case - if there is actual clotting in the atria - the coumadin is being used to clear an excess condition - Blood Stagnation - which is secondary to an underlying disharmony. I think I recall you've noticed a change in the tongue colouring away from purplish/stagnation ? Acupuncture will work to address the underlying root. There's no reason acupuncture combined with appropriate lifestyle and mental activities can't help him achieve this. If the doctors haven't re-examined with ultasound or related imaging and functional tests - to see if clotting actually exist in the atria - then this man is not being medically well-managed. No clots in heart atria = no need for coumadin; it's as simple as that. If a patient is uncertain as to why and how doctors are managing their conditions, I always suggest they request a second opinion from an appropriate medical specialist. If this man's heart rhythm can be returned to sinus [normal] rhythm, the risk of clotting and life threatening embolism from a large clot in the heart - in particular a stroke / CVA - no longer exists. And therefore he should not require indefinite Rx with coumadin. One would hope the docs would ulimately move to aspirin, or similar anticoagulants if necessay. In which case appropriate herbal medicines should be a viable treatment. Hope this helps. Margi Macdonald Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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