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Mike says:

Many state regulatory boards are not supposed to provide legal advice and

that usually includes interpretation of statutes. Seems odd when you call

and want to know beforehand if you are following the law. They seem to want

to force you to act and then there can be a legal reaction filed, hearing,

etc.

 

Richard responds:

That's because State Agencies make money fining licensees for disciplinary

actions and lawyers make money on all sides when vagueness turns into

legal actions/reactions,hearings and all sorts of monkey-business.

 

Mike says:

Our statutes in many states do not allow for LAc to order lab tests, a few

are different on this issue.

 

Maybe you can find another provider such as a ND or DC in your state that

will work with your patient. Best of luck in your search.

 

 

Richard responds:

Unless there is a specific prohibition it does not mean lab tests can't be

ordered by an LAc.

But if one is looking for reimbursement....that's a whole different story.

Even though the Florida Board of Acupuncture allows licensees to order labs

the lab companies do not have to comply and most do not.

Lastly.....at least here in Florida..... there are walk in labs where

people right off the street can go in and order themselves.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Michael

 

It all depends on statutes and rules and here in Florida the State

Agency/Board HAD the legislative authority to define MODERN ORIENTAL MEDICAL

TECHNIQUES and DIAGNOSTICS as used and as we all should know that in modern

Oriental medicine they USE lab tests for the conventional reasons but also to

verify the TCM/AOM treatment benefits.

 

And then there is Janet Zand, OMD. Did you ever see her work? Whether its

widespread accepted or not it appears to successfully translate blood tests

into TCM diagnostics. No different than what tongue or pulse diagnosis

does as additive information.

 

Scope of practice is often purposefully vague just like rules. But in some

states there is no mistaking that the practice scope is extremely limiting.

 

All LAc's are not the same.

 

As I recall some years back 5 to 6 states including but not limited to New

Mexico, Florida, Colorado, West Virginia, Arkansas, South Carolina,

etc....were capable of Injection Therapy and in some states are primary care

providers. And these state licensees constituted, at least at one point, the

majority of acupuncturists in the US but of course NOT the majority of states.

 

As for books have you checked what is written and practiced in modern

China regarding lab tests? That would tell you a lot more than what is published

here.

 

As stated before our experience in Florida is that the labs often will NOT

cooperate mostly being run by MDs and their slave-masters.

 

Richard

 

 

In a message dated 09/30/09 4:19:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

 

Richard,

Scope of practice is what determines what professions may perform and

procedures may be spelled out in the state's statutes. For example, the state I

live in, uses verbage that specifically defines or limits our scope by

usage of limiting language such as " using Oriental medical theory " and defines

terminology that limits us only to OM. This has the effect of limiting

LAc's to only perform procedures that are based upon this and no where in

this can labs be misinterpreted. I have not found any textbooks that connect

OM theory with lab results, although Dr. Fratkin has put forth some

interesting ideas of labs with OM diagnosis. That, of course, does not mean

that

the labs will cooperate just because. Maybe a walk-in lab can be found

nearby the patient's residence.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

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Michael

 

That's why many were PO'd at me (and why I was on the receiving end of

multiple harassment lawsuits) .........because I saw and acted upon windows of

opportunity while the " system " was asleep.

 

One such attorney and past Speaker of the Florida House of Representatives

asked me years ago (trying to be my best buddy to stop me), " how the

practice act had expanded on his watch " . I just chuckled and responded that it

really wasn't an expansion but an interpretation and since it was adopted

into scope of practice statute..... that obviously the legislature must have

had great vision. lol

 

If you read Colorado government's opinion on LAc licensees approval for

Acu-point Injection Therapy....... practitioners in other states now lacking

such scope modality might consider following that logic. And not just for

injection therapy.......but for other issues like lab & imaging.

 

It sure looks like the national organizations are pushing " biomedicine " .

Then why have it in school but not be able to apply it in practice?

 

There are Administrative ways of forcing state agencies addressing issues

such as previously mentioned by way of a properly drafted and filed Request

for Declaratory Statement.

 

Non of the above is meant as legal advice.

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 9/30/2009 4:47:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

Richard,

Yes, I agree, it comes down to statutes and rules and that some states

have a much narrower idea of what our scope of practice should be. In some

states, our profession has successfully been able to get a much more modern

view of things adopted. Keep fighting the good fight on this one and we can

change things over time.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Wed, 30 Sep 2009 16:32:34 -0400

Re: TCM - Ordering labs

 

 

 

 

 

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Richard,

Scope of practice is what determines what professions may perform and procedures

may be spelled out in the state's statutes. For example, the state I live in,

uses verbage that specifically defines or limits our scope by usage of limiting

language such as " using Oriental medical theory " and defines terminology that

limits us only to OM. This has the effect of limiting LAc's to only perform

procedures that are based upon this and no where in this can labs be

misinterpreted. I have not found any textbooks that connect OM theory with lab

results, although Dr. Fratkin has put forth some interesting ideas of labs with

OM diagnosis. That, of course, does not mean that the labs will cooperate just

because. Maybe a walk-in lab can be found nearby the patient's residence.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Wed, 30 Sep 2009 12:55:38 -0400

Ordering labs

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mike says:

 

Many state regulatory boards are not supposed to provide legal advice and

 

that usually includes interpretation of statutes. Seems odd when you call

 

and want to know beforehand if you are following the law. They seem to want

 

to force you to act and then there can be a legal reaction filed, hearing,

 

etc.

 

 

 

Richard responds:

 

That's because State Agencies make money fining licensees for disciplinary

 

actions and lawyers make money on all sides when vagueness turns into

 

legal actions/reactions,hearings and all sorts of monkey-business.

 

 

 

Mike says:

 

Our statutes in many states do not allow for LAc to order lab tests, a few

 

are different on this issue.

 

 

 

Maybe you can find another provider such as a ND or DC in your state that

 

will work with your patient. Best of luck in your search.

 

 

 

 

 

Richard responds:

 

Unless there is a specific prohibition it does not mean lab tests can't be

 

ordered by an LAc.

 

But if one is looking for reimbursement....that's a whole different story.

 

Even though the Florida Board of Acupuncture allows licensees to order labs

 

the lab companies do not have to comply and most do not.

 

Lastly.....at least here in Florida..... there are walk in labs where

 

people right off the street can go in and order themselves.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Richard,

Yes, I agree, it comes down to statutes and rules and that some states have a

much narrower idea of what our scope of practice should be. In some states, our

profession has successfully been able to get a much more modern view of things

adopted. Keep fighting the good fight on this one and we can change things over

time.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Wed, 30 Sep 2009 16:32:34 -0400

Re: Ordering labs

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Michael

 

 

 

It all depends on statutes and rules and here in Florida the State

 

Agency/Board HAD the legislative authority to define MODERN ORIENTAL MEDICAL

 

TECHNIQUES and DIAGNOSTICS as used and as we all should know that in modern

 

Oriental medicine they USE lab tests for the conventional reasons but also to

 

verify the TCM/AOM treatment benefits.

 

 

 

And then there is Janet Zand, OMD. Did you ever see her work? Whether its

 

widespread accepted or not it appears to successfully translate blood tests

 

into TCM diagnostics. No different than what tongue or pulse diagnosis

 

does as additive information.

 

 

 

Scope of practice is often purposefully vague just like rules. But in some

 

states there is no mistaking that the practice scope is extremely limiting.

 

 

 

All LAc's are not the same.

 

 

 

As I recall some years back 5 to 6 states including but not limited to New

 

Mexico, Florida, Colorado, West Virginia, Arkansas, South Carolina,

 

etc....were capable of Injection Therapy and in some states are primary care

 

providers. And these state licensees constituted, at least at one point, the

 

majority of acupuncturists in the US but of course NOT the majority of states.

 

 

 

As for books have you checked what is written and practiced in modern

 

China regarding lab tests? That would tell you a lot more than what is published

 

here.

 

 

 

As stated before our experience in Florida is that the labs often will NOT

 

cooperate mostly being run by MDs and their slave-masters.

 

 

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 09/30/09 4:19:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

 

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

 

 

Richard,

 

Scope of practice is what determines what professions may perform and

 

procedures may be spelled out in the state's statutes. For example, the state I

 

live in, uses verbage that specifically defines or limits our scope by

 

usage of limiting language such as " using Oriental medical theory " and defines

 

terminology that limits us only to OM. This has the effect of limiting

 

LAc's to only perform procedures that are based upon this and no where in

 

this can labs be misinterpreted. I have not found any textbooks that connect

 

OM theory with lab results, although Dr. Fratkin has put forth some

 

interesting ideas of labs with OM diagnosis. That, of course, does not mean

that

 

the labs will cooperate just because. Maybe a walk-in lab can be found

 

nearby the patient's residence.

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

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Michael

 

Here in Florida in 1986 the " moving of qi " statutorily CHANGED to a " form

of primary care based upon traditional Chinese medicine " and diagnosing and

treating illness and injury. Interesting that at the time the scope was

expanded to this and ALL the education that was necessary for that change was

the original TWO year program (1725 hours) plus the 60 college credits to

enter school.

 

Subsequently the Masters degree came into existence which in Florida

consists of 60 credit hours from a regionally accredited school plus the 2700

hours of didactic and clinical education which equals a Bachelors in Health

Science and Masters in Oriental Medicine.

 

In reality that total number of credit hours equals a PhD confirmed

verbally by the Florida Dept of Education but not recognized as such.

 

You think things are a little screwed on backwards?

 

Often the cart has to come before the horse...... otherwise nothing will

ever change. Force the change and if there is additional education needed -

it will come.

 

One of the top Florida Senators told me in 1998 and afterwards when

pushing for the FORMAL recognition by the State as " licensed physician " status

and functional doctor was that all we needed to do was raise the hours just a

little more to 3200 hrs......... which I believe is where the majority of

schools are already at or close to.

 

What does the profession have to do before it gets recognized....get a

double PhD?

 

As to labs/imaging.....here in Florida we added the education to the

Florida AP schools even though it was beyond the ACAOM accredited program. We

also made it required in continuing education for the past 9 years for those

already practicing.

 

Now are we reducing the CEU requirement for lab/imaging and changing it

collectively as biomedicine. Of course the Board is trying to force

pharmacology in continuing education when it doesn't exist in the school

programs.

More screwed on backwards. We should know that you can't properly learn

pharmacology unless you have already studied the pre-requisites such as

bio/organic chemistry. for example.

 

So YES.......form of primary care and to diagnose and treat illness and

injury is an important key step and as stated the quantity of education is

pretty much already there.

 

It appears that $50,000 to $80,000 for an AOM entry level so-called Masters

degree isn;t enough money for the schools. Someone wants another $70,000

for the doctor title.

 

 

Richard

 

 

 

In a message dated 9/30/2009 9:08:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

 

 

 

 

Richard,

Thanks for being a pioneer but lets not jump to fast into this idea as

there is a rather large risk involved as well as an issue of lack of education

in many of these areas you mention. I recently finished up a degree that

involved a lot of radiology as well as labs. There is a lot more to that

singular issue then our OM profession is able to justify taking on the risk.

Almost no state is going to grant us an expansion w/o any formal training

(CA is a question as it appears that an LAc has some right to order xrays but

this has not been challenged nor is it the practice norm). The complete

lack of education in these areas would appear to in conflict with public

protection and put us at risk of lawsuits. We would have to change our scope to

include the ability to diagnose, which we are very much limited to

currently.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Richard,

Thanks for being a pioneer but lets not jump to fast into this idea as there is

a rather large risk involved as well as an issue of lack of education in many of

these areas you mention. I recently finished up a degree that involved a lot of

radiology as well as labs. There is a lot more to that singular issue then our

OM profession is able to justify taking on the risk. Almost no state is going

to grant us an expansion w/o any formal training (CA is a question as it appears

that an LAc has some right to order xrays but this has not been challenged nor

is it the practice norm). The complete lack of education in these areas would

appear to in conflict with public protection and put us at risk of lawsuits. We

would have to change our scope to include the ability to diagnose, which we are

very much limited to currently.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Wed, 30 Sep 2009 19:42:44 -0400

Re: Ordering labs

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Michael

 

 

 

That's why many were PO'd at me (and why I was on the receiving end of

 

multiple harassment lawsuits) .........because I saw and acted upon windows of

 

opportunity while the " system " was asleep.

 

 

 

One such attorney and past Speaker of the Florida House of Representatives

 

asked me years ago (trying to be my best buddy to stop me), " how the

 

practice act had expanded on his watch " . I just chuckled and responded that it

 

really wasn't an expansion but an interpretation and since it was adopted

 

into scope of practice statute..... that obviously the legislature must have

 

had great vision. lol

 

 

 

If you read Colorado government's opinion on LAc licensees approval for

 

Acu-point Injection Therapy....... practitioners in other states now lacking

 

such scope modality might consider following that logic. And not just for

 

injection therapy.......but for other issues like lab & imaging.

 

 

 

It sure looks like the national organizations are pushing " biomedicine " .

 

Then why have it in school but not be able to apply it in practice?

 

 

 

There are Administrative ways of forcing state agencies addressing issues

 

such as previously mentioned by way of a properly drafted and filed Request

 

for Declaratory Statement.

 

 

 

Non of the above is meant as legal advice.

 

 

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 9/30/2009 4:47:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

 

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

 

 

Richard,

 

Yes, I agree, it comes down to statutes and rules and that some states

 

have a much narrower idea of what our scope of practice should be. In some

 

states, our profession has successfully been able to get a much more modern

 

view of things adopted. Keep fighting the good fight on this one and we can

 

change things over time.

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

Chinese Medicine

 

acudoc11

 

Wed, 30 Sep 2009 16:32:34 -0400

 

Re: TCM - Ordering labs

 

 

 

 

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Mike

 

See that's a key problem with this set up. What you see for quite a number

of years is the ACAOM accredited programs NATIONWIDE in CCAOM accredited

schools......which apparently is more than sufficient as a form of primary

care provider relationship within those few states but which contain the

majority of LAc's in the US. And this has existed for many years with NO major

problems.

 

Lets face it Mike........its a business of selling dream degrees and one

for $80,000 isn't enough for money for the greedy.

 

One should be able to make a case to the legislature in those states where

the scope is more or less limited to needle sticking technicians.

 

More education is not the answer.

There is plenty of education already.

As I said the actual calculation of 60 credits to enter an AOM school and

2750 + hours to graduate - you already have the credit hour equivalent of a

PhD. So lets not fool one another. Facts are the facts. If some of those

courses need to be dropped and replaced with others - so be it. Then it

should be done.

 

On the other hand if one wants to be an MD or PA etc - then forget the

acupuncture and go to medical school.

 

There is a limit to what is necessary to understand patients medical

conditions and ACAOM already has it in the accredited program and its apparently

been working just fine.

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 10/1/2009 11:34:24 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

Richard,

That is great for FL, CA and NM but much of this country does not see us

as primarycare, let alone want to give us that chance. We are technicians in

most statutes and also with our designation. Our OM education is not even

close to supporting this change but must mention that our western science

courses are to support our communication and understanding of the patient's

condition with their doctor and are not for establishing a diagnosis.

Many of the states with the better acupuncture laws were able to get

changes in acupuncture legislation due to public support and not simply

professional desires. CA was able to retain its status with work comp due to

the

increased educational standards, which are still inadequate. If an LAc was

to order an xray, they would need to have someone else read it, and there

could be more then a few issues of a legal nature. Work comp is all about

the legal stuff, so the right person needs to be doing the right thing or

else there are problems. Labs are one thing but imaging is quite another.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

 

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Richard,

That is great for FL, CA and NM but much of this country does not see us as

primarycare, let alone want to give us that chance. We are technicians in most

statutes and also with our designation. Our OM education is not even close to

supporting this change but must mention that our western science courses are to

support our communication and understanding of the patient's condition with

their doctor and are not for establishing a diagnosis.

Many of the states with the better acupuncture laws were able to get changes in

acupuncture legislation due to public support and not simply professional

desires. CA was able to retain its status with work comp due to the increased

educational standards, which are still inadequate. If an LAc was to order an

xray, they would need to have someone else read it, and there could be more then

a few issues of a legal nature. Work comp is all about the legal stuff, so the

right person needs to be doing the right thing or else there are problems. Labs

are one thing but imaging is quite another.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Wed, 30 Sep 2009 22:01:35 -0400

Re: Ordering labs

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Michael

 

 

 

Here in Florida in 1986 the " moving of qi " statutorily CHANGED to a " form

 

of primary care based upon traditional Chinese medicine " and diagnosing and

 

treating illness and injury. Interesting that at the time the scope was

 

expanded to this and ALL the education that was necessary for that change was

 

the original TWO year program (1725 hours) plus the 60 college credits to

 

enter school.

 

 

 

Subsequently the Masters degree came into existence which in Florida

 

consists of 60 credit hours from a regionally accredited school plus the 2700

 

hours of didactic and clinical education which equals a Bachelors in Health

 

Science and Masters in Oriental Medicine.

 

 

 

In reality that total number of credit hours equals a PhD confirmed

 

verbally by the Florida Dept of Education but not recognized as such.

 

 

 

You think things are a little screwed on backwards?

 

 

 

Often the cart has to come before the horse...... otherwise nothing will

 

ever change. Force the change and if there is additional education needed -

 

it will come.

 

 

 

One of the top Florida Senators told me in 1998 and afterwards when

 

pushing for the FORMAL recognition by the State as " licensed physician " status

 

and functional doctor was that all we needed to do was raise the hours just a

 

little more to 3200 hrs......... which I believe is where the majority of

 

schools are already at or close to.

 

 

 

What does the profession have to do before it gets recognized....get a

 

double PhD?

 

 

 

As to labs/imaging.....here in Florida we added the education to the

 

Florida AP schools even though it was beyond the ACAOM accredited program. We

 

also made it required in continuing education for the past 9 years for those

 

already practicing.

 

 

 

Now are we reducing the CEU requirement for lab/imaging and changing it

 

collectively as biomedicine. Of course the Board is trying to force

 

pharmacology in continuing education when it doesn't exist in the school

programs.

 

More screwed on backwards. We should know that you can't properly learn

 

pharmacology unless you have already studied the pre-requisites such as

 

bio/organic chemistry. for example.

 

 

 

So YES.......form of primary care and to diagnose and treat illness and

 

injury is an important key step and as stated the quantity of education is

 

pretty much already there.

 

 

 

It appears that $50,000 to $80,000 for an AOM entry level so-called Masters

 

degree isn;t enough money for the schools. Someone wants another $70,000

 

for the doctor title.

 

 

 

 

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 9/30/2009 9:08:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

 

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

 

 

Richard,

 

Thanks for being a pioneer but lets not jump to fast into this idea as

 

there is a rather large risk involved as well as an issue of lack of education

 

in many of these areas you mention. I recently finished up a degree that

 

involved a lot of radiology as well as labs. There is a lot more to that

 

singular issue then our OM profession is able to justify taking on the risk.

 

Almost no state is going to grant us an expansion w/o any formal training

 

(CA is a question as it appears that an LAc has some right to order xrays but

 

this has not been challenged nor is it the practice norm). The complete

 

lack of education in these areas would appear to in conflict with public

 

protection and put us at risk of lawsuits. We would have to change our scope to

 

include the ability to diagnose, which we are very much limited to

 

currently.

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

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Michael

 

After 2,750 hours of didactic & clinic education....... as to where and

how to insert acupuncture needles .........all that was really needed for

Acu-Point Injection therapy was 60 hours additional and even that was

overkill. A phlebotomist only has to take 45 hours to get a license in Florida.

 

As for lab & imaging the consensus here in the year 2000 .....when they

were added to our Administrative Code Rules...........was 5 hrs Lab and 3 hrs

Imaging. To be clear - this was not for the practitioner to be a lab tech,

nor was it for them to interpret imaging. It was the basic course work to

learn the meaning of values and how to relate to those test findings. Not

only was it mandated into the Florida acupuncture program (regardless of

ACAOM) and it was mandated every two years in continuing education. Yes....one

can spend a lifetime studying lab and imaging but that was not the need or

purpose. The need was a very basic understanding.

 

Of course one has to have the education, as always, before one can

practice a specific modality. Take for example one of our rules on adjunctive

therapies. There is a laundry list of inclusive acceptable modalities under the

scope of practice including Ayurvedic medicine. Common sense dictates that

much of the list are NOT in the ACAOM accredited program. This is the way

to write rules.

 

One does not need to micro-manage these issues. Common sense dictates that

you had better take some reasonable amount of study before administering

any subset modalities. That is clear direction or if you

will....interpretation.

 

This is no different than with MDs & DOs when it comes to

acupuncture.....yet the system controllers prefer to skirt the issue. Its the

reverse

argument. MDs & DOs can " practice " acupuncture without restriction in most

states and DCs only need 100 hrs in many states ........when close to nothing

in

the study of allopathic medicine or chiropractic medicine has anything to

do with acupuncture. Unfortunately we go back to the age old discussion.

But for LAc's it appears that you and too many others support this overkill

in education.

 

LAc's according to the past ACAOM accredited masters program in AOM

contained approximately 450 hours of western allopathic medicine including

anatomy, physiology, pathology and biomedical terminology. And HERE in Florida

the schools were forced to also teach the use of laboratory and imaging test

findings. Where was ACAOM on that issue? Slowly dragging their heels because

they as with all the national orgs sit at the table " chewing the fat "

moving like an inch worm.

 

Possibly some 200-300 additional hours should more than cover the limited

areas of basics BUT that's about all.

 

The unfortunate issue with studying overseas........great education.......

but not really recognized. And once a state gets involved with

credentialization issues the profession gets watered down with all the illegals

who

more thank likely either paid-off someone and/or will be a slave-laborer (for

$10/hr) for some corporate sponsor. That's a system which has been in

place forever in allopathic medicine with HB1 visas etc. But that scheme is to

long to get into here.

 

This scheme has been pulled in Florida allowing foreigners who never took

a real acupuncture course and never had another US state acupuncture

license and worse than that the national testing org " gave " them some funky

credential document review which purportedly is not done anymore.

 

I have caught several of these in the past 5 years and was on them like

flies on you know what.....and all of sudden those licenses did not get

renewed and disappeared along with their so-called Board document

certification.

 

With 3200 + hours there is more than enough time between didactic and

clinic to cover all the basics needed. Just like when I sat down with the

Florida Senator who was willing to be open minded. I was suggesting 4,000 hours

and he burst out laughing - advising me that that many hours were totally

unnecessary.

 

Richard

 

 

 

In a message dated 10/1/2009 4:04:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

I hear you but respectfully disagree with the educational part of things.

When you do not have any hours in some of these subjects, it is not

justifiable to include it in our scope of practice. OM schools do not provide

adequate coursework in labs/interpretation and/or imaging and these can be

very important for patient care.

I agree with you on the business of things with our OM programs and would

suggest that future students consider going to study in China or Korea, as

both countries have a much more complete knowledge set on both OM and

science and are better able to utilize these together. Those interested might

look at the new Samra Spinalcare Clinic and notice that most of their

faculty are from Korean OM colleges and also using high tech MRI, xray, and

even

EMRs. Talk about high tech OM programs.

 

 

 

 

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Richard,

I hear you but respectfully disagree with the educational part of things. When

you do not have any hours in some of these subjects, it is not justifiable to

include it in our scope of practice. OM schools do not provide adequate

coursework in labs/interpretation and/or imaging and these can be very important

for patient care.

I agree with you on the business of things with our OM programs and would

suggest that future students consider going to study in China or Korea, as both

countries have a much more complete knowledge set on both OM and science and are

better able to utilize these together. Those interested might look at the new

Samra Spinalcare Clinic and notice that most of their faculty are from Korean OM

colleges and also using high tech MRI, xray, and even EMRs. Talk about high

tech OM programs.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Thu, 1 Oct 2009 15:05:28 -0400

Re: Ordering labs

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mike

 

 

 

See that's a key problem with this set up. What you see for quite a number

 

of years is the ACAOM accredited programs NATIONWIDE in CCAOM accredited

 

schools......which apparently is more than sufficient as a form of primary

 

care provider relationship within those few states but which contain the

 

majority of LAc's in the US. And this has existed for many years with NO major

 

problems.

 

 

 

Lets face it Mike........its a business of selling dream degrees and one

 

for $80,000 isn't enough for money for the greedy.

 

 

 

One should be able to make a case to the legislature in those states where

 

the scope is more or less limited to needle sticking technicians.

 

 

 

More education is not the answer.

 

There is plenty of education already.

 

As I said the actual calculation of 60 credits to enter an AOM school and

 

2750 + hours to graduate - you already have the credit hour equivalent of a

 

PhD. So lets not fool one another. Facts are the facts. If some of those

 

courses need to be dropped and replaced with others - so be it. Then it

 

should be done.

 

 

 

On the other hand if one wants to be an MD or PA etc - then forget the

 

acupuncture and go to medical school.

 

 

 

There is a limit to what is necessary to understand patients medical

 

conditions and ACAOM already has it in the accredited program and its apparently

 

been working just fine.

 

 

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 10/1/2009 11:34:24 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

 

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

 

 

Richard,

 

That is great for FL, CA and NM but much of this country does not see us

 

as primarycare, let alone want to give us that chance. We are technicians in

 

most statutes and also with our designation. Our OM education is not even

 

close to supporting this change but must mention that our western science

 

courses are to support our communication and understanding of the patient's

 

condition with their doctor and are not for establishing a diagnosis.

 

Many of the states with the better acupuncture laws were able to get

 

changes in acupuncture legislation due to public support and not simply

 

professional desires. CA was able to retain its status with work comp due to

the

 

increased educational standards, which are still inadequate. If an LAc was

 

to order an xray, they would need to have someone else read it, and there

 

could be more then a few issues of a legal nature. Work comp is all about

 

the legal stuff, so the right person needs to be doing the right thing or

 

else there are problems. Labs are one thing but imaging is quite another.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

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