The strange coil in the kidney channel (update)

[Guest guest]

Dear Friends,

 

I am here back with my idea that the ancient Chinese could see the acupuncture

meridian system, and probably for this reason they could have described it,

namely the deep paths between the internal organs and the body surface, that is

all what TCM books described even today. People who were not in this TCM list at

the time of the first exposition can see my question and theory here:

 

www.meso.it/circleinkidneychannel.en.htm

 

Recently I have found something that strongly corroborates with the fact that

the coil (circle, loop, or spiral) in the kidney channel foot-path repeats the

same shape as in the seminal path of western anatomy: during embryologic

development the human feet sprout so that their internal aspects face toward the

site where successively the male genital organs will take place. I point on

“male†because in my theory we can observe the coil shape only in the male

genital organs (the seminal path).

 

You can look at my considerations here, in a very enjoyable site of Embryology:

 

http://tinyurl.com/yccjosx

http://tinyurl.com/ycbjuk3

 

People who are more curious, can look at a comparative table of lizard tortoise

pig and human embryologic development here:

 

http://tinyurl.com/yb832ep

 

How not to wonder at the smart lizard tail? :-)

 

Ciao,

 

Stefano

 

 

-------

Stefano Marcelli MD

acupuncturist and mesoterapist in Italy

independent researcher in acupuncture

-------

Via Caravaggio 7

25047 DARFO BOARIO TERME (BS)

www.meso.it

www.madreditutti.com

www.stefanomarcelli.com

+39 0364 535916

+39 328 4898603

-------

[Guest guest]

David

 

There is still much which has not been translated from the richness of

documents (some 2,000 documents/books) written in ancient

Chinese.....according to Dr Wu, Boping, MD OMD PhD-China.

 

Even some of which has been written and " translated(??) " is still vague.

Vague possibly in part because what was written and/or translated was

accomplished by individuals who did not need to go into detail and possibly

missed the issue that future generations might need a more detailed map.

 

The following may seem small but (imo) addresses this same issue. It is

the lack of fine detail in the description of the location of the acu-point

Lung 5 ChiZe. Believe it or not....many practitioners really don;t have a

clear notion of exactly where it is located and why.

 

Some years back I wrote about this issue. The writings/translations even

back to ancient Chinese are written in short hand in part pictographic and

in part because those practitioners did not need to go into detail of the

exact channel location commenting that the point was located in the cubital

crease medial to the tendon. But how much medial? 1/2 cun, 1 cun, 1 1/2

cun????

 

Wu Laoshi at my request revisited both modern Chinese and ancient Chinese

writings on the subject. He confirmed that none gave an in depth

description. See attached updated description and diagrams.

 

You can't totally rely on what has been translated as the whole truth and

nothing but the truth.

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi David! Just a note here;

 

--David-

The detailed pathways, outer and inner were not presented in the classics.

---

 

 

I can speak with a certain amount of authority in regards to the process seen

in Chinese Martial Arts - because there were strong elements of secrecy imbedded

in a culture of closed-door oral transmission, stuff wasn't written down, and,

in particular, secret, potent or deep stuff was not written down. Again, there

is an even deeper reason for oral transmission - a living teacher can ensure

that a lesson has been learnt, and can test it, a book can't, and a student

working alone can't. (We have examples of this in the modern north american TCM

community with people who have no lineage connection to our tradition

misinterpreting the written material.)

Simply put, just because it is not in a book doesn't mean it wasn't

apprehended. In fact, in a culture based on oral tradition, we must assume that

the oral tradition preceded written materials by a great margin.

It may also be useful to consider that certain types of information are

regarding as amenable or appropriate for the written page, and other types of

material are never regarded as appropriate to read about, but must be practiced.

That said, of course theoretical maps of consensus did develop.

 

Just some thoughts,

 

Hugo

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hello Hugo:

 

This may be true, but the opposite may be true too. There is nothing wrong if

our medicine evolved. Most never really study the history. For example, Tao

Hongjing's material medica, the base of our herbal knowledge shows no connection

of herbs to organs or channels, blue poppy has a translation, there is nothing

wrong that the knowledge did not exist before that time. The history and

evolution of our medicine is important as it allows us to see how the people at

a certain time treated certain conditions, if we ignore that we get someone

else's view of how to treat and lose the ability of choice.

 

regards,

david

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor

wrote:

>

> Hi David! Just a note here;

>

> --David-

> The detailed pathways, outer and inner were not presented in the classics.

> ---

>

>

> I can speak with a certain amount of authority in regards to the process seen

in Chinese Martial Arts - because there were strong elements of secrecy imbedded

in a culture of closed-door oral transmission, stuff wasn't written down, and,

in particular, secret, potent or deep stuff was not written down. Again, there

is an even deeper reason for oral transmission - a living teacher can ensure

that a lesson has been learnt, and can test it, a book can't, and a student

working alone can't. (We have examples of this in the modern north american TCM

community with people who have no lineage connection to our tradition

misinterpreting the written material.)

> Simply put, just because it is not in a book doesn't mean it wasn't

apprehended. In fact, in a culture based on oral tradition, we must assume that

the oral tradition preceded written materials by a great margin.

> It may also be useful to consider that certain types of information are

regarding as amenable or appropriate for the written page, and other types of

material are never regarded as appropriate to read about, but must be practiced.

> That said, of course theoretical maps of consensus did develop.

>

> Just some thoughts,

>

> Hugo

>

>

> ________________________________

> Hugo Ramiro

> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> http://www.middlemedicine.org

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hello Richard:

 

Well this is exactly what I am saying. We can not blindly believe what people

say or what a book says. But if one is referencing a book atleast we should look

at what they say.

 

I think there is a good reason why Lung 5 is not exactly desctibed, because the

location is not a rigid thing, it can have a range. The Nei Jing is clearly

about palpating, feeling, these precise cun measurements got listed by people

trying to standardize our medicine. The needle depths in books is just a

standard, it needs to be adjusted for the shape of every person.

 

The Renying/Cukuo pulse is about listing to the body response and stopping a

treatment when the pusle indicates the body has responded, not a fixed time for

every patient to make the practioners job easier.

 

Yes, as times goes on practioners apply new applications based on principles in

the old literature, but how many of us really study the literature, dedicate

time and effort to it?

 

regards,

david

 

 

Chinese Medicine , acudoc11 wrote:

>

> David

>

> There is still much which has not been translated from the richness of

> documents (some 2,000 documents/books) written in ancient

> Chinese.....according to Dr Wu, Boping, MD OMD PhD-China.

>

> Even some of which has been written and " translated(??) " is still vague.

> Vague possibly in part because what was written and/or translated was

> accomplished by individuals who did not need to go into detail and possibly

> missed the issue that future generations might need a more detailed map.

>

> The following may seem small but (imo) addresses this same issue. It is

> the lack of fine detail in the description of the location of the acu-point

> Lung 5 ChiZe. Believe it or not....many practitioners really don;t have a

> clear notion of exactly where it is located and why.

>

> Some years back I wrote about this issue. The writings/translations even

> back to ancient Chinese are written in short hand in part pictographic and

> in part because those practitioners did not need to go into detail of the

> exact channel location commenting that the point was located in the cubital

> crease medial to the tendon. But how much medial? 1/2 cun, 1 cun, 1 1/2

> cun????

>

> Wu Laoshi at my request revisited both modern Chinese and ancient Chinese

> writings on the subject. He confirmed that none gave an in depth

> description. See attached updated description and diagrams.

>

> You can't totally rely on what has been translated as the whole truth and

> nothing but the truth.

>

> Richard

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear David, thank for your clarifying answer.

 

You are right, too much versions of paths, of

points position, everywhere it would be possible

to individuate new points, and this is the reason

why the British Medical Acupuncture Association

(Mann, White…) has rejected at all the meridians

(till evidence of contrary), considering them only

as virtual lines, like geographical meridians. I

don’t know who drew for the first time the spiral

on the pathway of kidney channel, IMHO he must see

it, and my observations corroborate with this

fact.

 

Ciao,

 

Stefano

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

[Chinese Medicine

om] On Behalf Of singlewhip2001

Sunday, September 27, 2009 10:54 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: The strange coil in the kidney

channel (update)

 

 

 

 

 

Hi stefano:

 

This is an interesting topic. At what time does

" the ancient time frame " occur? In the Wa Wang Dui

medical texts, the oldest historical texts we have

now there are no points on the pathways, there are

no connections to the organs and there is no

acupuncture, bleeding and moxa were the methods of

the time.

 

If we read the su wen, ling shu, pulse classic and

jia yi jing the pathways are not what they are

today. Ling shu pathways do not have the spiral

flow, there are only 6-points listed on the

pathway, which one is the Luo point and is not on

the primary channel. The oldest books we have do

not have this inner view knowledge. Ling Shui only

has a bout 160 points, all others got added over

time. The detailed pathways, outer and inner were

not presented in the classics.

 

regards,

david

 

--- In

Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40

..com> , " stefanomarcelli " <stefanomarcelli

wrote:

>

> Dear Friends,

>

> I am here back with my idea that the ancient

Chinese could see the acupuncture meridian system,

and probably for this reason they could have

described it, namely the deep paths between the

internal organs and the body surface, that is all

what TCM books described even today. People who

were not in this TCM list at the time of the first

exposition can see my question and theory here:

>

> www.meso.it/circleinkidneychannel.en.htm

>

> Recently I have found something that strongly

corroborates with the fact that the coil (circle,

loop, or spiral) in the kidney channel foot-path

repeats the same shape as in the seminal path of

western anatomy: during embryologic development

the human feet sprout so that their internal

aspects face toward the site where successively

the male genital organs will take place. I point

on “male†because in my theory we can observe

the coil shape only in the male genital organs

(the seminal path).

>

> You can look at my considerations here, in a

very enjoyable site of Embryology:

>

> http://tinyurl.com/yccjosx

> http://tinyurl.com/ycbjuk3

>

> People who are more curious, can look at a

comparative table of lizard tortoise pig and human

embryologic development here:

>

> http://tinyurl.com/yb832ep

>

> How not to wonder at the smart lizard tail? :-)

>

> Ciao,

>

> Stefano

>

>

> -------

> Stefano Marcelli MD

> acupuncturist and mesoterapist in Italy

> independent researcher in acupuncture

> -------

> Via Caravaggio 7

> 25047 DARFO BOARIO TERME (BS)

> www.meso.it

> www.madreditutti.com

> www.stefanomarcelli.com

> +39 0364 535916

> +39 328 4898603

> -------

>

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Hugo, great note, thank you.

Stefano

 

>Hi David! Just a note here;