Guest guest Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 HI friends I have a question about weight loss with acupuncture In your opinion what is the best plan for weight loss? I used the below points but the result wasn't prominent: cv12 liv3 li4 spl6 st36 st25 spl15 pe6 ear points: shenmen hunger mouth stomach Any answer will be appreciated Mehran Rezvani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 Mehran, Is your patient also exercising and eating in a way that would assist in losing weight? How long have you been treating him/her, and how frequently? What is their constitution and are there any health concerns other than the weight? Tongue? Pulse? Diagnosis? Andrea Beth Traditional Oriental Medicine Happy Hours in the CALM Center 635 S. 10th St. Cottonwood, AZ 86326 (928) 274-1373 --- On Mon, 9/14/09, mehran rezvani <mehranerezvani wrote: mehran rezvani <mehranerezvani best plan forweight loss Chinese Medicine Monday, September 14, 2009, 12:11 PM HI friends I have a question about weight loss with acupuncture In your opinion what is the best plan for weight loss? I used the below points but the result wasn't prominent: cv12 liv3 li4 spl6 st36 st25 spl15 pe6 ear points: shenmen hunger mouth stomach Any answer will be appreciated Mehran Rezvani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 Hi Mehran: I personally don't enjoy trerating any case that will require long-term commitment if the patient does not seem willing to make and follow through with radical changes. Weight loss requires a very good diet based on CM principles and an ability to enforce this radical change. If people want to be substantially different (i.e. lose weight), then they have to BE substantially different. An obvious point lost on many. In my experience a limited amount of weight loss can be achieved by rectifying the qi dynamic using acupuncture (i.e. resolving damp and boosting spleen qi), but this doesn't address diet, the sources of dietary dysregulation and so on. I am very curious as to what other practitioners have to say on this topic. ???? ???? Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ mehran rezvani <mehranerezvani Chinese Medicine Monday, 14 September, 2009 15:11:47 best plan forweight loss HI friends I have a question about weight loss with acupuncture In your opinion what is the best plan for weight loss? I used the below points but the result wasn't prominent: cv12 liv3 li4 spl6 st36 st25 spl15 pe6 ear points: shenmen hunger mouth stomach Any answer will be appreciated Mehran Rezvani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 Hugo is right on. We (practitioners of CM) hold a very powerful medicine (probably one of the most powerful on the planet) to open a door and offer our patients an opportunity to walk through that door. But what we hold has the power to cut both ways - it can also be used as an endless excuse to indulge in feel-good states with no intention of ever walking through that door. Whether we choose to be collusional with chronic dysfunction or inspirational instigators of enlightened evolution - is the biggest question we face as practitioners - and in the answer we each provide, we distinguish ourselves as either mediocre or exceptional physicians. Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hi Mehran: > > I personally don't enjoy trerating any case that will require long-term commitment if the patient does not seem willing to make and follow through with radical changes. > > Weight loss requires a very good diet based on CM principles and an ability to enforce this radical change. If people want to be substantially different (i.e. lose weight), then they have to BE substantially different. An obvious point lost on many. > > In my experience a limited amount of weight loss can be achieved by rectifying the qi dynamic using acupuncture (i.e. resolving damp and boosting spleen qi), but this doesn't address diet, the sources of dietary dysregulation and so on. > > I am very curious as to what other practitioners have to say on this topic. ???? ???? > > Hugo > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org > > > > > > ________________________________ > mehran rezvani <mehranerezvani > Chinese Medicine > Monday, 14 September, 2009 15:11:47 > best plan forweight loss > > > HI friends > I have a question about weight loss with acupuncture > > In your opinion what is the best plan for weight loss? > I used the below points but the result wasn't prominent: > cv12 liv3 li4 spl6 st36 st25 spl15 pe6 ear points: shenmen hunger mouth stomach > Any answer will be appreciated > Mehran Rezvani > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2009 Report Share Posted September 15, 2009 Daniel, Hugo, Very well expressed points. While I wouldn't use the term 'radical' as far as changes go on the part of the patient, change must at least be incremental. I remember something that a practitioner in Boulder, Colorado had said. In his town, there is a virtual supermarket of 'alternative' approaches in healing/medicine, and most of his patients had tried quite a few of these approaches. They all said they felt 'good' or 'better', but all of them were still sick and had the same conditions they started with. Fundamental cure requires deep change, and one essential aspect of Chinese medicine is the patient's commitment to achieving that change. . . On Sep 14, 2009, at 3:15 PM, daniel.schulman wrote: > > Hugo is right on. > We (practitioners of CM) hold a very powerful medicine (probably one > of the most powerful on the planet) to open a door and offer our > patients an opportunity to walk through that door. But what we hold > has the power to cut both ways - it can also be used as an endless > excuse to indulge in feel-good states with no intention of ever > walking through that door. Whether we choose to be collusional with > chronic dysfunction or inspirational instigators of enlightened > evolution - is the biggest question we face as practitioners - and > in the answer we each provide, we distinguish ourselves as either > mediocre or exceptional physicians. > > Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro > <subincor wrote: > > > > Hi Mehran: > > > > I personally don't enjoy trerating any case that will require long- > term commitment if the patient does not seem willing to make and > follow through with radical changes. > > > > Weight loss requires a very good diet based on CM principles and > an ability to enforce this radical change. If people want to be > substantially different (i.e. lose weight), then they have to BE > substantially different. An obvious point lost on many. > > > > In my experience a limited amount of weight loss can be achieved > by rectifying the qi dynamic using acupuncture (i.e. resolving damp > and boosting spleen qi), but this doesn't address diet, the sources > of dietary dysregulation and so on. > > > > I am very curious as to what other practitioners have to say on > this topic. ???? ???? > > > > Hugo > > > > ________________________________ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > mehran rezvani <mehranerezvani > > Chinese Medicine > > Monday, 14 September, 2009 15:11:47 > > best plan forweight loss > > > > > > HI friends > > I have a question about weight loss with acupuncture > > > > In your opinion what is the best plan for weight loss? > > I used the below points but the result wasn't prominent: > > cv12 liv3 li4 spl6 st36 st25 spl15 pe6 ear points: shenmen hunger > mouth stomach > > Any answer will be appreciated > > Mehran Rezvani > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2009 Report Share Posted September 15, 2009 You can only cut a max of 20 pounds or so of water-weight without the patient exercising and burning off FAT and changing their diets. I've gotten results doing similar protocols of what you wrote, but making sure that the patient exercised and also felt better about themselves, because trauma and depression are at the root of obesity. If the patient doesn't exercise and change their diet, then the weight will come back almost immediately. It's important to add GB points (bile for fats) and the frustration of being stuck in life. The San jiao is the official of irrigation, often using SJ with GB is helpful. Also, KD points to increase metabolism, control water and overcome the lack of will to move through the dampness. (fat), Also, I noticed you added ST 36. Zu san li makes people more hungry. Traditionally, it is used to help people gain weight! Instead, I use St 40. You used SP 6. How about SP 9... water point on earth channel. Yin ling quan helps the earth control the water. Best of luck! K On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 6:43 PM, <zrosenbe wrote: > > > Daniel, Hugo, > Very well expressed points. While I wouldn't use the term > 'radical' as far as changes go on the part of the patient, change must > at least be incremental. > > I remember something that a practitioner in Boulder, Colorado had > said. In his town, there is a virtual supermarket of 'alternative' > approaches in healing/medicine, and most of his patients had tried > quite a few of these approaches. They all said they felt 'good' or > 'better', but all of them were still sick and had the same conditions > they started with. > > Fundamental cure requires deep change, and one essential aspect of > Chinese medicine is the patient's commitment to achieving that > change. . . > > > > On Sep 14, 2009, at 3:15 PM, daniel.schulman wrote: > > > > > Hugo is right on. > > We (practitioners of CM) hold a very powerful medicine (probably one > > of the most powerful on the planet) to open a door and offer our > > patients an opportunity to walk through that door. But what we hold > > has the power to cut both ways - it can also be used as an endless > > excuse to indulge in feel-good states with no intention of ever > > walking through that door. Whether we choose to be collusional with > > chronic dysfunction or inspirational instigators of enlightened > > evolution - is the biggest question we face as practitioners - and > > in the answer we each provide, we distinguish ourselves as either > > mediocre or exceptional physicians. > > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > Hugo Ramiro > > <subincor wrote: > > > > > > Hi Mehran: > > > > > > I personally don't enjoy trerating any case that will require long- > > term commitment if the patient does not seem willing to make and > > follow through with radical changes. > > > > > > Weight loss requires a very good diet based on CM principles and > > an ability to enforce this radical change. If people want to be > > substantially different (i.e. lose weight), then they have to BE > > substantially different. An obvious point lost on many. > > > > > > In my experience a limited amount of weight loss can be achieved > > by rectifying the qi dynamic using acupuncture (i.e. resolving damp > > and boosting spleen qi), but this doesn't address diet, the sources > > of dietary dysregulation and so on. > > > > > > I am very curious as to what other practitioners have to say on > > this topic. ???? ???? > > > > > > Hugo > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > mehran rezvani <mehranerezvani > > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > > > Monday, 14 September, 2009 15:11:47 > > > best plan forweight loss > > > > > > > > > HI friends > > > I have a question about weight loss with acupuncture > > > > > > In your opinion what is the best plan for weight loss? > > > I used the below points but the result wasn't prominent: > > > cv12 liv3 li4 spl6 st36 st25 spl15 pe6 ear points: shenmen hunger > > mouth stomach > > > Any answer will be appreciated > > > Mehran Rezvani > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2009 Report Share Posted September 15, 2009 My secret protocol to patients is Safety Pin threaded to Du 26 and Ren 24 for 2 weeks - scientifically proven to lose weight. [?] But seriously, diet and exercise and balanced emotions is the way to go. Acupuncture and herbs help. Try treating the Spleen (Xia San Huang), St (St 36, 42, 40), and Liver (Liv 2, 3, 6). Herbs vary with digestives, calm liver, calm shen, tx Sp/St.... On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 7:38 AM, <johnkokko wrote: > > > You can only cut a max of 20 pounds or so of water-weight without the > patient exercising > and burning off FAT and changing their diets. > I've gotten results doing similar protocols of what you wrote, > but making sure that the patient exercised and also felt better about > themselves, > because trauma and depression are at the root of obesity. > > If the patient doesn't exercise and change their diet, then the weight will > come back almost immediately. > > It's important to add GB points (bile for fats) and the frustration of > being > stuck in life. > The San jiao is the official of irrigation, often using SJ with GB is > helpful. > > Also, KD points to increase metabolism, control water > and overcome the lack of will to move through the dampness. (fat), > > Also, I noticed you added ST 36. Zu san li makes people more hungry. > Traditionally, it is used to help people gain weight! > Instead, I use St 40. > > You used SP 6. How about SP 9... water point on earth channel. > Yin ling quan helps the earth control the water. > > Best of luck! > K > > > On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 6:43 PM, <zrosenbe<zrosenbe%40san.rr.com>> > wrote: > > > > > > > Daniel, Hugo, > > Very well expressed points. While I wouldn't use the term > > 'radical' as far as changes go on the part of the patient, change must > > at least be incremental. > > > > I remember something that a practitioner in Boulder, Colorado had > > said. In his town, there is a virtual supermarket of 'alternative' > > approaches in healing/medicine, and most of his patients had tried > > quite a few of these approaches. They all said they felt 'good' or > > 'better', but all of them were still sick and had the same conditions > > they started with. > > > > Fundamental cure requires deep change, and one essential aspect of > > Chinese medicine is the patient's commitment to achieving that > > change. . . > > > > > > > > On Sep 14, 2009, at 3:15 PM, daniel.schulman wrote: > > > > > > > > Hugo is right on. > > > We (practitioners of CM) hold a very powerful medicine (probably one > > > of the most powerful on the planet) to open a door and offer our > > > patients an opportunity to walk through that door. But what we hold > > > has the power to cut both ways - it can also be used as an endless > > > excuse to indulge in feel-good states with no intention of ever > > > walking through that door. Whether we choose to be collusional with > > > chronic dysfunction or inspirational instigators of enlightened > > > evolution - is the biggest question we face as practitioners - and > > > in the answer we each provide, we distinguish ourselves as either > > > mediocre or exceptional physicians. > > > > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > <Chinese Medicine%40>, > > Hugo Ramiro > > > <subincor wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Mehran: > > > > > > > > I personally don't enjoy trerating any case that will require long- > > > term commitment if the patient does not seem willing to make and > > > follow through with radical changes. > > > > > > > > Weight loss requires a very good diet based on CM principles and > > > an ability to enforce this radical change. If people want to be > > > substantially different (i.e. lose weight), then they have to BE > > > substantially different. An obvious point lost on many. > > > > > > > > In my experience a limited amount of weight loss can be achieved > > > by rectifying the qi dynamic using acupuncture (i.e. resolving damp > > > and boosting spleen qi), but this doesn't address diet, the sources > > > of dietary dysregulation and so on. > > > > > > > > I am very curious as to what other practitioners have to say on > > > this topic. ???? ???? > > > > > > > > Hugo > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > > > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > mehran rezvani <mehranerezvani > > > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > > > Monday, 14 September, 2009 15:11:47 > > > > best plan forweight loss > > > > > > > > > > > > HI friends > > > > I have a question about weight loss with acupuncture > > > > > > > > In your opinion what is the best plan for weight loss? > > > > I used the below points but the result wasn't prominent: > > > > cv12 liv3 li4 spl6 st36 st25 spl15 pe6 ear points: shenmen hunger > > > mouth stomach > > > > Any answer will be appreciated > > > > Mehran Rezvani > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2009 Report Share Posted September 15, 2009 Andrea thx for your answer and other friends I 'm very glad for answers and learn very much I treating patient in two last weeks in one another days manner they haven't any medical desease other than obesity best regards mehran rezvani --- On Tue, 9/15/09, < wrote: < Re: best plan forweight loss Chinese Medicine Tuesday, September 15, 2009, 12:10 AM Mehran, Is your patient also exercising and eating in a way that would assist in losing weight? How long have you been treating him/her, and how frequently? What is their constitution and are there any health concerns other than the weight? Tongue? Pulse? Diagnosis? Andrea Beth Traditional Oriental Medicine Happy Hours in the CALM Center 635 S. 10th St. Cottonwood, AZ 86326 (928) 274-1373 --- On Mon, 9/14/09, mehran rezvani <mehranerezvani@ > wrote: mehran rezvani <mehranerezvani@ > best plan forweight loss Monday, September 14, 2009, 12:11 PM HI friends I have a question about weight loss with acupuncture In your opinion what is the best plan for weight loss? I used the below points but the result wasn't prominent: cv12 liv3 li4 spl6 st36 st25 spl15 pe6 ear points: shenmen hunger mouth stomach Any answer will be appreciated Mehran Rezvani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 Chinese Medicine , Robert Chu <chusauli wrote: > > My secret protocol to patients is Safety Pin threaded to Du 26 and Ren 24 > for 2 weeks - scientifically proven to lose weight. [?] Wow! Though I think this was meant in jest, I would feel very badly for any patient struggling with weight issues to have to confront this kind of attitude in a practitioner. It is unprofessional and really just shows an ignorance of the mechanisms involved with obesity. The pathogenesis of obesity can be quite complex and varied between types of people. Most people who are overweight do not over eat and many are cellularly malnourished. Those who do over eat often do so out due to metabolic imbalances that can be worked with using Chinese Herbs. It is not our place to judge our patients, even for what we might perceive as their habits. Often as people heal, the habits improve naturally. As an example: I am working with two patients currently who are both overweight and both feel urges to eat that feel pathological to them. Both of these women have " Huang Qi body types " which is something I learned to diagnose from Dr. Huang Huang. This means that their abdomens are soft and spongey. Dr. Huang Huang teaches that if the patient with this type of belly has a poor appetite, the main herb would be Bai Zhu. If they have a good appetite, this type of belly indicates Huang Qi. I've given both women different formulas but both of the formulas are lead by Huang Qi. One woman receives 120 gm. of Huang Qi a week in her formula and the other receives 180gm/week. (raw herbs) Both of these women have experienced their appetites normalizing. I did nothing to get them to change their habits, seeing the dysfunctional appetite as another symptom for me to work with as opposed to it being just a destructive habit they refused to or were too weak to change. I have other patients who are overweight and have very poor appetites. In these cases my first plan is to improve the appetite. This will indicate improved metabolism. Most overweight people I see have a poor appetite in conjunction with cravings. As the normal appetite improves, the cravings go down. Because most obese patients have difficulties metabolizing properly, their cells are actually undernourished. This not only increases cravings, it also makes it virtually impossible and even dangerous for them to exercise intensively. I work to improve the metabolism and encourage comfortable exercise that can increase as the patient improves. Most of these patients very much want to exercise and when they feel better, they naturally do. I know this is just touching on the variety of approaches that can be helpful for these patients. It's just to show that we don't need to blame patients for having a symptom like excessive appetite or for being overweight. I feel strongly that, in working with obese patients, we must trust that they are wanting to be well and are doing their best. Many are bewildered as to why their habits are so recalcitrant and their bodies seem to be out of control. As practitioners, we should take more responsibility for engendering the healing through our methods and put less of the blame on the patients. If we are not able to make a difference, maybe it is a sign that there is ore to learn rather than a sign that the patient is not cooperating. I would love to hear from other practitioners about their experience as to what is effective for patients suffering from obesity. Thanks Sharon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 Thank you, Sharon, yes, the problem of obesity is very complex and framing it as a mechanical eating issue leaves clients and practitioners feeling stuck. A good resource is " Handbook of Obesity Treatments, " a good overview of research and evaluation of treatment approaches. I do think that people are under-nourished and they are also sugar addicted. I usually give then Spirulina to increase the micro-nutrition, stir them towards menu planning of natural dishes, and use TCM to address the underlying disorder. I actively discourage them from thinking that there is an easy quick-fix and just a series of acupuncture will take care of it. It's exactly this kind of attitude that left them stuck in denial. I usually ask the client: What do you think needs to change? Are you willing to make that change? Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - swzoe2000 Chinese Medicine Wednesday, September 16, 2009 10:34 AM Re: best plan forweight loss Chinese Medicine , Robert Chu <chusauli wrote: > > My secret protocol to patients is Safety Pin threaded to Du 26 and Ren 24 > for 2 weeks - scientifically proven to lose weight. [?] Wow! Though I think this was meant in jest, I would feel very badly for any patient struggling with weight issues to have to confront this kind of attitude in a practitioner. It is unprofessional and really just shows an ignorance of the mechanisms involved with obesity. The pathogenesis of obesity can be quite complex and varied between types of people. Most people who are overweight do not over eat and many are cellularly malnourished. Those who do over eat often do so out due to metabolic imbalances that can be worked with using Chinese Herbs. It is not our place to judge our patients, even for what we might perceive as their habits. Often as people heal, the habits improve naturally. As an example: I am working with two patients currently who are both overweight and both feel urges to eat that feel pathological to them. Both of these women have " Huang Qi body types " which is something I learned to diagnose from Dr. Huang Huang. This means that their abdomens are soft and spongey. Dr. Huang Huang teaches that if the patient with this type of belly has a poor appetite, the main herb would be Bai Zhu. If they have a good appetite, this type of belly indicates Huang Qi. I've given both women different formulas but both of the formulas are lead by Huang Qi. One woman receives 120 gm. of Huang Qi a week in her formula and the other receives 180gm/week. (raw herbs) Both of these women have experienced their appetites normalizing. I did nothing to get them to change their habits, seeing the dysfunctional appetite as another symptom for me to work with as opposed to it being just a destructive habit they refused to or were too weak to change. I have other patients who are overweight and have very poor appetites. In these cases my first plan is to improve the appetite. This will indicate improved metabolism. Most overweight people I see have a poor appetite in conjunction with cravings. As the normal appetite improves, the cravings go down. Because most obese patients have difficulties metabolizing properly, their cells are actually undernourished. This not only increases cravings, it also makes it virtually impossible and even dangerous for them to exercise intensively. I work to improve the metabolism and encourage comfortable exercise that can increase as the patient improves. Most of these patients very much want to exercise and when they feel better, they naturally do. I know this is just touching on the variety of approaches that can be helpful for these patients. It's just to show that we don't need to blame patients for having a symptom like excessive appetite or for being overweight. I feel strongly that, in working with obese patients, we must trust that they are wanting to be well and are doing their best. Many are bewildered as to why their habits are so recalcitrant and their bodies seem to be out of control. As practitioners, we should take more responsibility for engendering the healing through our methods and put less of the blame on the patients. If we are not able to make a difference, maybe it is a sign that there is ore to learn rather than a sign that the patient is not cooperating. I would love to hear from other practitioners about their experience as to what is effective for patients suffering from obesity. Thanks Sharon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 Thank you, Sharon. I have also confronted this very same sentiment which you find offensive, on previous occasions on this list. Andrea Beth Traditional Oriental Medicine Happy Hours in the CALM Center 635 S. 10th St. Cottonwood, AZ 86326 (928) 274-1373 --- On Wed, 9/16/09, swzoe2000 <sweiz wrote: swzoe2000 <sweiz Re: best plan forweight loss Chinese Medicine Wednesday, September 16, 2009, 10:34 AM Chinese Medicine , Robert Chu <chusauli wrote: > > My secret protocol to patients is Safety Pin threaded to Du 26 and Ren 24 > for 2 weeks - scientifically proven to lose weight. [?] Wow! Though I think this was meant in jest, I would feel very badly for any patient struggling with weight issues to have to confront this kind of attitude in a practitioner. It is unprofessional and really just shows an ignorance of the mechanisms involved with obesity. The pathogenesis of obesity can be quite complex and varied between types of people. Most people who are overweight do not over eat and many are cellularly malnourished. Those who do over eat often do so out due to metabolic imbalances that can be worked with using Chinese Herbs. It is not our place to judge our patients, even for what we might perceive as their habits. Often as people heal, the habits improve naturally. As an example: I am working with two patients currently who are both overweight and both feel urges to eat that feel pathological to them. Both of these women have " Huang Qi body types " which is something I learned to diagnose from Dr. Huang Huang. This means that their abdomens are soft and spongey. Dr. Huang Huang teaches that if the patient with this type of belly has a poor appetite, the main herb would be Bai Zhu. If they have a good appetite, this type of belly indicates Huang Qi. I've given both women different formulas but both of the formulas are lead by Huang Qi. One woman receives 120 gm. of Huang Qi a week in her formula and the other receives 180gm/week. (raw herbs) Both of these women have experienced their appetites normalizing. I did nothing to get them to change their habits, seeing the dysfunctional appetite as another symptom for me to work with as opposed to it being just a destructive habit they refused to or were too weak to change. I have other patients who are overweight and have very poor appetites. In these cases my first plan is to improve the appetite. This will indicate improved metabolism. Most overweight people I see have a poor appetite in conjunction with cravings. As the normal appetite improves, the cravings go down. Because most obese patients have difficulties metabolizing properly, their cells are actually undernourished. This not only increases cravings, it also makes it virtually impossible and even dangerous for them to exercise intensively. I work to improve the metabolism and encourage comfortable exercise that can increase as the patient improves. Most of these patients very much want to exercise and when they feel better, they naturally do. I know this is just touching on the variety of approaches that can be helpful for these patients. It's just to show that we don't need to blame patients for having a symptom like excessive appetite or for being overweight. I feel strongly that, in working with obese patients, we must trust that they are wanting to be well and are doing their best. Many are bewildered as to why their habits are so recalcitrant and their bodies seem to be out of control. As practitioners, we should take more responsibility for engendering the healing through our methods and put less of the blame on the patients. If we are not able to make a difference, maybe it is a sign that there is ore to learn rather than a sign that the patient is not cooperating. I would love to hear from other practitioners about their experience as to what is effective for patients suffering from obesity. Thanks Sharon --- Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2009 Report Share Posted September 18, 2009 I applaude you. Bravo! Very often western doctors ask and expect patients do something they are not able to do because ill. Ciao, Stefano Marcelli --- If we are not able to make a difference, maybe it is a sign that there is ore to learn rather than a sign that the patient is not cooperating. I would love to hear from other practitioners about their experience as to what is effective for patients suffering from obesity. Thanks Sharon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2009 Report Share Posted September 18, 2009 Hi Sharon: I'm going to play the Devil's advocate here, because I do thoroughly agree with your viewpoint. That said, you do say " maybe " : --Sharon W- If we are not able to make a difference, maybe it is a sign that there is ore to learn rather than a sign that the patient is not cooperating. --- There are many stories of the highest level practitioners turning away from, or refusing to deal with, problematic people. The Buddha, for example, is recorded to have " not-dealt " with several characters. This is to say that, as we strive to become better practitioners, teachers, students, and listeners, there *are* people who will do everything in their power to remain outside of the healer's sphere of influence, and yet will pretend to dance. Please do not read this as an attack on " these people " , but rather take this note as an aknowledgement of the human bottom-line, which is to say: nothing but each individual's freedom of choice and personal Will is definitive. If an individual has *chosen* to not be helped at this point in time, it will not matter if you are the Buddha, the Buddha's Buddha or even the grand ultimate universal divinity him/her/it/allness'-self, *you will not be able to help them*, and it is a service to both the healer and the player to disengage and call it what it is. Just a provocative thought, hopefully, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2009 Report Share Posted September 19, 2009 I thank you for stating such a modern compassionate and medically useful position. --- On Wed, 9/16/09, < wrote: < Re: best plan forweight loss Chinese Medicine Wednesday, September 16, 2009, 5:41 PM Thank you, Sharon. I have also confronted this very same sentiment which you find offensive, on previous occasions on this list. Andrea Beth Traditional Oriental Medicine Happy Hours in the CALM Center 635 S. 10th St. Cottonwood, AZ 86326 (928) 274-1373 --- On Wed, 9/16/09, swzoe2000 <sweiz wrote: swzoe2000 <sweiz Re: best plan forweight loss Wednesday, September 16, 2009, 10:34 AM Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Robert Chu <chusauli@.. ..> wrote: > > My secret protocol to patients is Safety Pin threaded to Du 26 and Ren 24 > for 2 weeks - scientifically proven to lose weight. [?] Wow! Though I think this was meant in jest, I would feel very badly for any patient struggling with weight issues to have to confront this kind of attitude in a practitioner. It is unprofessional and really just shows an ignorance of the mechanisms involved with obesity. The pathogenesis of obesity can be quite complex and varied between types of people. Most people who are overweight do not over eat and many are cellularly malnourished. Those who do over eat often do so out due to metabolic imbalances that can be worked with using Chinese Herbs. It is not our place to judge our patients, even for what we might perceive as their habits. Often as people heal, the habits improve naturally. As an example: I am working with two patients currently who are both overweight and both feel urges to eat that feel pathological to them. Both of these women have " Huang Qi body types " which is something I learned to diagnose from Dr. Huang Huang. This means that their abdomens are soft and spongey. Dr. Huang Huang teaches that if the patient with this type of belly has a poor appetite, the main herb would be Bai Zhu. If they have a good appetite, this type of belly indicates Huang Qi. I've given both women different formulas but both of the formulas are lead by Huang Qi. One woman receives 120 gm. of Huang Qi a week in her formula and the other receives 180gm/week. (raw herbs) Both of these women have experienced their appetites normalizing. I did nothing to get them to change their habits, seeing the dysfunctional appetite as another symptom for me to work with as opposed to it being just a destructive habit they refused to or were too weak to change. I have other patients who are overweight and have very poor appetites. In these cases my first plan is to improve the appetite. This will indicate improved metabolism. Most overweight people I see have a poor appetite in conjunction with cravings. As the normal appetite improves, the cravings go down. Because most obese patients have difficulties metabolizing properly, their cells are actually undernourished. This not only increases cravings, it also makes it virtually impossible and even dangerous for them to exercise intensively. I work to improve the metabolism and encourage comfortable exercise that can increase as the patient improves. Most of these patients very much want to exercise and when they feel better, they naturally do. I know this is just touching on the variety of approaches that can be helpful for these patients. It's just to show that we don't need to blame patients for having a symptom like excessive appetite or for being overweight. I feel strongly that, in working with obese patients, we must trust that they are wanting to be well and are doing their best. Many are bewildered as to why their habits are so recalcitrant and their bodies seem to be out of control. As practitioners, we should take more responsibility for engendering the healing through our methods and put less of the blame on the patients. If we are not able to make a difference, maybe it is a sign that there is ore to learn rather than a sign that the patient is not cooperating. I would love to hear from other practitioners about their experience as to what is effective for patients suffering from obesity. Thanks Sharon ------------ --------- --------- ------ Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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