Placebo, Big Pharma and Ted Kapchuk

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

 

There is an excellent article in wired on big pharma and the placebo that I

found very interesting. One disturbing item was this:

 

" Ted Kaptchuk is developing ways to distinguish drug response more clearly from

placebo response for another pharma house that he declines to name. Both are

exploring innovative trial models that treat the placebo effect as more than

just statistical noise competing with the active drug. "

 

 

I suppose I should not be disappointed or surprised by one of the early

advocates of on the payrolls of a pharmaceutical company -- but

I am, deeply disappointed.

 

The article is here:

 

http://tinyurl.com/l3wegl

 

 

David Toone, L.,Ac.

www.davidtoone.com

[Guest guest]

Me too. Not Sorry I didn't read anything by him. eh

 

--- On Fri, 9/11/09, davidetoone <davidetoone wrote:

 

davidetoone <davidetoone

Placebo, Big Pharma and Ted Kapchuk

Chinese Medicine

Friday, September 11, 2009, 7:43 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi all,

 

 

 

There is an excellent article in wired on big pharma and the placebo that I

found very interesting. One disturbing item was this:

 

 

 

" Ted Kaptchuk is developing ways to distinguish drug response more clearly from

placebo response for another pharma house that he declines to name. Both are

exploring innovative trial models that treat the placebo effect as more than

just statistical noise competing with the active drug. "

 

 

 

I suppose I should not be disappointed or surprised by one of the early

advocates of on the payrolls of a pharmaceutical company -- but

I am, deeply disappointed.

 

 

 

The article is here:

 

 

 

http://tinyurl. com/l3wegl

 

 

 

David Toone, L.,Ac.

 

www.davidtoone. com

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

David,

Ted Kaptchuk wrote many articles on placebos

http://www.kanherb.com/cons_pi_kh_kaptchuk.asp

 

I don't think he's a bad guy, just because he's on the payroll of a pharm

company.

Placebo is strong medicine and he's showing that many drugs don't fare much

better than sugar pills.

 

Chinese medicine in some circles, has always being claimed as effective,

only because of the placebo effect,

but Kaptchuk has written consistently that placebo needs to be looked at in

a different way.

We practice mind-body medicine. How can one separate them from each other?

Why do people only consider beneficial results accurate if a drug forced

that result?

 

Descartes before the horse.. Adam Smith.

K

 

 

 

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 4:43 AM, davidetoone <davidetoone wrote:

 

>

>

> Hi all,

>

> There is an excellent article in wired on big pharma and the placebo that I

> found very interesting. One disturbing item was this:

>

> " Ted Kaptchuk is developing ways to distinguish drug response more clearly

> from placebo response for another pharma house that he declines to name.

> Both are exploring innovative trial models that treat the placebo effect as

> more than just statistical noise competing with the active drug. "

>

> I suppose I should not be disappointed or surprised by one of the early

> advocates of on the payrolls of a pharmaceutical company --

> but I am, deeply disappointed.

>

> The article is here:

>

> http://tinyurl.com/l3wegl

>

> David Toone, L.,Ac.

> www.davidtoone.com

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

 

 

When one pill of the great elixir forms in the furnace,

The embryonic immortal in the room dances three leaps.

The four signs and five energies all combine harmoniously,

The nine-restoration and seven-reversion complete the work cycle.

The radiant form of the moon appears from the hut,

The shining light illumines the universe.

" The Book of Balance and Harmony "

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Great article David! Thanks for sharing.

 

What is placebo? It's the ultimate natural medicine cure! Isn't that our

goal as natural medicine practitioners to empower each patient to heal from

within? I'm impressed - it shows humility on the part of Big Pharma to

finally give " placebo " the spotlight it deserves. We're witnessing a

paradigm shift, nobody better qualified than Ted Kapchuk to crack open minds

of mainstream medicine and big pharma from within when it comes to placebo.

 

 

When people say that TCM or Acupuncture is largely placebo, some

practitioners get offended. But when I hear it, I'm so flattered! To me it

means that as a profession we are kind, compassionate, have powerful and

good intentions, and induce in patients a sense of health and psychological

well-being. We cause the patient's own body to make just the perfect,

customized drug-cocktail to heal from within. That's great stuff! I strive

for the day when everybody who comes to my office just gets one simple

needle on ST36, or maybe no needle at all, but everybody is helped because

I've mastered the placebo effect.

 

It'll be exciting to continue following Kaptchuk's work. Hopefully being

part of big pharma he'll have more funding and resources to help all of us

understand how our minds can heal the body from within. Show what drugs are

truly necessary, what drugs really should be obsolete. Also his placebo

expertise will hopefully inspire increasingly elegant ways to design

acupuncture research studies.

 

Imagine the day when placebo becomes such a powerful force, pharmaceutical

companies will have to change their business models and become champions of

better bedside manners, training clinicians on " placebo medicine " .... It

will be a professional requirement that all doctors learn how to be kind to

patients, to listen with compassion, and to dispense the right

color/shape/size sugar pill infused with loving prayers and healing

intentions! That will be a wonderful day indeed!! The truth will come out

and we will all benefit from it.

 

~Edith Chan, P.M.D. (placebo medicine doctor, and damn proud of it!) ;->

 

 

--

Edith Chan, L.Ac.

Doctoral Fellow

www.DanTianWellness.com

Office: 415.668.1880 - Mobile: 415.298.5324

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " Edith Chan, L.Ac. "

<chineseherbs wrote:

 

" What is placebo? It's the ultimate natural medicine cure! Isn't that our goal

as natural medicine practitioners to empower each patient to heal from within

..... We cause the patient's own body to make just the perfect, customized

drug-cocktail to heal from within.

.....

Imagine the day when placebo becomes such a powerful force, pharmaceutical

companies will have to change their business models and become champions of

better bedside manners, training clinicians on " placebo medicine " .... It will be

a professional requirement that all doctors learn how to be kind to patients, to

listen with compassion, and to dispense the right color/shape/size sugar pill

infused with loving prayers and healing intentions! That will be a wonderful day

indeed!! The truth will come out and we will all benefit from it. "

 

> ~Edith Chan, P.M.D. (placebo medicine doctor, and damn proud of it!) ;->

 

 

Edith... that's a great post.

And a relevant aside: practitioners of Ayurvedic medicine - from which TCM may

well have arisen - have always advised that it is imperative to " first treat the

mind " .

 

Margi Macdonald

http://margihealing.wordpress.com/

[Guest guest]

What makes you think that Chinese medicine arose from Ayurveda?

Everything I've ever read and researched shows independent development

of both medical cultures.. . .

 

 

On Sep 13, 2009, at 5:35 AM, margi.macdonald wrote:

 

>

> Edith... that's a great post.

> And a relevant aside: practitioners of Ayurvedic medicine - from

> which TCM may well have arisen - have always advised that it is

> imperative to " first treat the mind " .

>

> Margi Macdonald

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

It is an interesting thing to consider that when the chemical companies switched

from the production of war products to pharmaceuticals that in the process they

were supplanting, among other medicines, homeopathy. To say that a " sugar pill "

is inert is so obviously disrespectful that to this day i wonder if the

homeopaths haven't put a bit of a curse on the whole affair?

 

Edith, you really hit the nail on the head! For me, after thoroughly going

through the trials of acu these last few years i realised that the so called

" placebo " points generally illicted a 40% improvement no matter the disorder. So

that default 40% then became my 0 point if you will, i simply had to adjust my

graph. I told a patient this week who said that she wasn't sure why she was

getting better (from being unable to dress herself to now having the ability to

put on take off any article of clothing), my response was " i don't care how we

get to rome, just so long as we get there. "

 

I am reminded of a quote from Edgar Cayce that i live by as a practitioner:

" For, all healing comes from the one source. And whether there is the

application of foods, exercise, medicine, or even the knife, - it is to bring

the consciousness of the forces within the body that aid in reproducing

themselves, the awareness of creative or God forces. "

 

Cheers, Tymothy

 

 

 

 

>

> Great article David! Thanks for sharing.

>

> What is placebo? It's the ultimate natural medicine cure! Isn't that our

> goal as natural medicine practitioners to empower each patient to heal from

> within? I'm impressed - it shows humility on the part of Big Pharma to

> finally give " placebo " the spotlight it deserves. We're witnessing a

> paradigm shift, nobody better qualified than Ted Kapchuk to crack open minds

> of mainstream medicine and big pharma from within when it comes to placebo.

>

>

> When people say that TCM or Acupuncture is largely placebo, some

> practitioners get offended. But when I hear it, I'm so flattered! To me it

> means that as a profession we are kind, compassionate, have powerful and

> good intentions, and induce in patients a sense of health and psychological

> well-being. We cause the patient's own body to make just the perfect,

> customized drug-cocktail to heal from within. That's great stuff! I strive

> for the day when everybody who comes to my office just gets one simple

> needle on ST36, or maybe no needle at all, but everybody is helped because

> I've mastered the placebo effect.

>

> It'll be exciting to continue following Kaptchuk's work. Hopefully being

> part of big pharma he'll have more funding and resources to help all of us

> understand how our minds can heal the body from within. Show what drugs are

> truly necessary, what drugs really should be obsolete. Also his placebo

> expertise will hopefully inspire increasingly elegant ways to design

> acupuncture research studies.

>

> Imagine the day when placebo becomes such a powerful force, pharmaceutical

> companies will have to change their business models and become champions of

> better bedside manners, training clinicians on " placebo medicine " .... It

> will be a professional requirement that all doctors learn how to be kind to

> patients, to listen with compassion, and to dispense the right

> color/shape/size sugar pill infused with loving prayers and healing

> intentions! That will be a wonderful day indeed!! The truth will come out

> and we will all benefit from it.

>

> ~Edith Chan, P.M.D. (placebo medicine doctor, and damn proud of it!) ;->

>

>

> --

> Edith Chan, L.Ac.

> Doctoral Fellow

> www.DanTianWellness.com

> Office: 415.668.1880 - Mobile: 415.298.5324

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes belief, or suspension of disbelief, the magical coming through the concrete

is wonderful. To allow oneself or another to be something else..

 

 Above the toil of my life, my soul, is a bird of fire, winging the infinite.

 

 Are we my life, or the bird, or both? I would think both. Placebo is a substudy

of us as 'self'-regenerative beings, and the physiology supporting this big

interactive field. Meridians, channels, major and minor chakras, points, feeling

the the flow.  ?

 

--- On Sun, 9/13/09, margi.macdonald <margi.macdonald wrote:

 

margi.macdonald <margi.macdonald

Re: Placebo, Big Pharma and Ted Kapchuk

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, September 13, 2009, 8:35 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " Edith

Chan, L.Ac. " <chineseherbs@ ...> wrote:

 

 

 

" What is placebo? It's the ultimate natural medicine cure! Isn't that our goal

as natural medicine practitioners to empower each patient to heal from within

..... We cause the patient's own body to make just the perfect, customized

drug-cocktail to heal from within.

 

.....

 

Imagine the day when placebo becomes such a powerful force, pharmaceutical

companies will have to change their business models and become champions of

better bedside manners, training clinicians on " placebo medicine " ... . It will

be a professional requirement that all doctors learn how to be kind to patients,

to listen with compassion, and to dispense the right color/shape/ size sugar

pill infused with loving prayers and healing intentions! That will be a

wonderful day indeed!! The truth will come out and we will all benefit from

it. "

 

 

 

> ~Edith Chan, P.M.D. (placebo medicine doctor, and damn proud of it!) ;->

 

 

 

Edith... that's a great post.

 

And a relevant aside: practitioners of Ayurvedic medicine - from which TCM may

well have arisen - have always advised that it is imperative to " first treat the

mind " .

 

 

 

Margi Macdonald

 

http://margihealing .wordpress. com/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Z'ev and Margi;

 

While it is correct to say that Ayurveda and Buddhism had impact on CM, as did

Unani and so on, Z'ev is correct in pointing out that not only is the core

Daoist root of CM not found in Ayurveda, but there is plenty of evidence

indicating a sufficient age for CM to protect the idea of an independent

origination.

 

Hugo

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

<zrosenbe

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, 13 September, 2009 16:05:48

Re: Placebo, Big Pharma and Ted Kapchuk

 

 

What makes you think that Chinese medicine arose from Ayurveda?

Everything I've ever read and researched shows independent development

of both medical cultures.. . .

 

 

On Sep 13, 2009, at 5:35 AM, margi.macdonald wrote:

 

>

> Edith... that's a great post.

> And a relevant aside: practitioners of Ayurvedic medicine - from

> which TCM may well have arisen - have always advised that it is

> imperative to " first treat the mind " .

>

> Margi Macdonald

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

[Guest guest]

Zev,

Nice to read this topic. I am interested in hearing what we consider CM to be,

meaning are we a singular entity or a loosely compiled set of theories with

differing origins and cultural identity? Where do we draw the geo-political

boundaries and did the silk road cities only serve ancient China or other

cultures as well?

I ask this to see if we are in step with some of the research that I have read

about the Song dynasty and published in a book entitled, " The Evolution of

: Song Dynasty, 960-1200 " . I find this very fascinating stuff.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

zrosenbe

Sun, 13 Sep 2009 13:05:48 -0700

Re: Placebo, Big Pharma and Ted Kapchuk

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What makes you think that Chinese medicine arose from

Ayurveda?

 

Everything I've ever read and researched shows independent development

 

of both medical cultures.. . .

 

 

 

 

 

On Sep 13, 2009, at 5:35 AM, margi.macdonald wrote:

 

 

 

>

 

> Edith... that's a great post.

 

> And a relevant aside: practitioners of Ayurvedic medicine - from

 

> which TCM may well have arisen - have always advised that it is

 

> imperative to " first treat the mind " .

 

>

 

> Margi Macdonald

 

 

 

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

 

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

 

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Mike,

Yes, I've read this book. The Song dynasty was a very interesting

period of development in Chinese medicine, and a lot of different

influences came through. It is also when the 'scholar physician'/ru

yi concept was developed, and when the Shang Han Lun became the core

of Chinese medical practice, finally, after generations. However,

influences from other medical cultures such as India Greece or Tibet

is very different from saying that " Chinese medicine came from

Ayurveda " . There is no historical evidence to that effect. .

 

 

On Sep 14, 2009, at 8:19 AM, mike Bowser wrote:

 

>

> Zev,

> Nice to read this topic. I am interested in hearing what we consider

> CM to be, meaning are we a singular entity or a loosely compiled set

> of theories with differing origins and cultural identity? Where do

> we draw the geo-political boundaries and did the silk road cities

> only serve ancient China or other cultures as well?

> I ask this to see if we are in step with some of the research that I

> have read about the Song dynasty and published in a book entitled,

> " The Evolution of : Song Dynasty, 960-1200 " . I find

> this very fascinating stuff.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> Chinese Medicine

> zrosenbe

> Sun, 13 Sep 2009 13:05:48 -0700

> Re: Placebo, Big Pharma and Ted Kapchuk

>

> What makes you think that Chinese medicine arose from Ayurveda?

>

> Everything I've ever read and researched shows independent development

>

> of both medical cultures.. . .

>

>

>

> On Sep 13, 2009, at 5:35 AM, margi.macdonald wrote:

>

> >

>

> > Edith... that's a great post.

>

> > And a relevant aside: practitioners of Ayurvedic medicine - from

>

> > which TCM may well have arisen - have always advised that it is

>

> > imperative to " first treat the mind " .

>

> >

>

> > Margi Macdonald

>

>

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

>

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

>

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

>

>

[Guest guest]

wrote to Margi Macdonald <<What makes you think that Chinese

medicine arose from Ayurveda? Everything I've ever read and researched shows

independent development of both medical cultures..>>

 

There certainly isn't any lack of " origination " theories out there.

 

It is however, interesting to consider that the Ayurvedic

Charaka Samhita describes Ayurvedic " surgical " methods, resembling

acupuncture, and preceding known Chinese models. It is maintained

that these Indian methods fell into disuse with the rise of

Buddhism in India, as they were seen as " violent " techniques.

Some scholars maintain these modalities were acquired by the Chinese,

who then ran with them.

 

Another curious, but seldom noted point of influence, includes the

minority Uyghur people of Western China. It is often stated that

Li Shi Zhen's knowledge of herbs and pulse dx, received a great

influx from Uyghur medicine. One line of thought claims that

acupuncture itself entered China via the conduit of the Uyghurs,

received from there trade partners.

 

Then, we have the opinions of folks like Dr. Jerry Allen Johnson,

who radically depart from any scholarly opinions, and explain that

the " bian " , " stone needle " techniques, never involved any invasive

or contact proceedures at all; instead, he argues that the most

ancient " acupuncture " actually involved stimulating points by directing Qi

through corresponding stones and gems, to reduce, or

tonify, according to a variety of primitive " Qi gong " emmision

methods.

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " ariaksatri2 "

<aryaksatriya wrote:

>

> wrote to Margi Macdonald <<What makes you think that Chinese

medicine arose from Ayurveda? Everything I've ever read and researched shows

independent development of both medical cultures..>>

>

> There certainly isn't any lack of " origination " theories out there.

>

> It is however, interesting to consider that the Ayurvedic

> Charaka Samhita describes Ayurvedic " surgical " methods, resembling

> acupuncture, and preceding known Chinese models. It is maintained

> that these Indian methods fell into disuse with the rise of

> Buddhism in India, as they were seen as " violent " techniques.

> Some scholars maintain these modalities were acquired by the Chinese,

> who then ran with them.

What scholars? I have never read anything that suggests the Chinese got surgical

techniques from India...in fact, Sivin argues that the whole idea of " surgery "

in early China is ridiculous-probing and cutting doesn't qualify. That those in

India probed people with tools, and that later China did, does not mean that one

led to the other regardless of how India's views of such techniques changed.

Doesn't every ancient culture have a history of cutting, pricking, and bleeding?

 

> Another curious, but seldom noted point of influence, includes the

> minority Uyghur people of Western China. It is often stated that

> Li Shi Zhen's knowledge of herbs and pulse dx, received a great

> influx from Uyghur medicine. One line of thought claims that

> acupuncture itself entered China via the conduit of the Uyghurs,

> received from there trade partners.

>

Li Shi Zhen is a 16th century physician who was born in the Southeast part of

China...while possible the two intersected, do you have a reference for this? As

for acupuncture " originating " from Uyghurs, I don't even know of any evidence

that the Uyghurs practiced anything remotely close to acupuncture. What would an

Uyghur text even look like? Again, reference?

 

> Then, we have the opinions of folks like Dr. Jerry Allen Johnson,

> who radically depart from any scholarly opinions, and explain that

> the " bian " , " stone needle " techniques, never involved any invasive

> or contact proceedures at all; instead, he argues that the most

> ancient " acupuncture " actually involved stimulating points by directing Qi

through corresponding stones and gems, to reduce, or

> tonify, according to a variety of primitive " Qi gong " emmision

> methods.

 

There is plenty of evidence that the stones were used to puncture people-it says

so plainly in the pre-Han texts. Could stones and crystals have been used

non-invasivelly? Sure, but there is no such thing as primitive Qi Gong. Dao yin

exercises are hardly the same thing as what was described above-no emitting of

Qi going on there.

[Guest guest]

There is actually a fairly modern account of stone needles being used for

insertion in the book " Fourth Uncle in the Mountain, " but whose to say that

ancient doctors didn't do there fair share of Emitting Qi through stones too?

I know for a fact, emitting qi through stones like jade and carnelian is done

today in China so why not in ancient times?

 

> There is plenty of evidence that the stones were used to puncture people-it

says so plainly in the pre-Han texts. Could stones and crystals have been used

non-invasivelly? Sure, but there is no such thing as primitive Qi Gong. Dao yin

exercises are hardly the same thing as what was described above-no emitting of

Qi going on there.

>