Guest guest Posted September 7, 2009 Report Share Posted September 7, 2009 Remember, Marty, that each seizure is the body's attempt to discharge electricity, often, unsuccessfully. Such was the case with my wife. Imagine if you will, a seizure every 25 days or so, followed within the next few days, by 5-8 post-ictal seizures, for 19 years. Do the math, and you will realize that the number of seizures she has endured numbers well over 1000! Besides the obvious damage they have done, one other consequence has been a rawness, and an inability to concentrate. How could you expect someone who harbors and is distracted by so much electricity, to be able to focus, concentrate or engage in any relaxation technique? Believe me, we tried, but the cumulative sequelae of the seizures have just been too overwhelming for her to engage in any active relaxation--at least until recently. But now that B " H it appears that the seizures have stopped, I am very hopeful that slowly and gradually the body will naturally discharge the electricity and simultaneously heal. Anecdotally, I will tell you that some years ago, she was seen by Dr. John Upledger, the developer of CranioSacral therapy. An interesting therapy that Dr. Upledger suggested was that daily, for an hour, we connect a metal wire to Chana's leg, and attach it to a ground, to discharge the electricity. It was yet another interesting idea, but had little effect. Personally, as a practitioner, I feel that the most important approach that we can take when treating a patient, is to thoughtfully attempt to determine the pathogenesis of the patient's condition, in addition to determining the differential diagnosis. By considering all contributing factors, and by determining its origin, we go back to the root of the problem, and that knowledge can make all the difference in knowing how to proceed, and with which appropriate therapy or therapies. I used to naively believe that if I was good enough at it, that Chinese medicine could resolve any condition. This in spite of hearing from my professors, time and time again, that certain conditions could only be treated early in their onset, and some not at all. Yet, my experience has taught me that sometimes, a condition can manifest as a mineral or vitamin deficiency (eg. peripheral neuropathy can possibly result from a deficiency of Thiamine or B12; Bone spurs and/or osteoporosis can result from magnesium deficiency), and may not be successfully treated by acupuncture, moxa, herbs, diet, Qi gong or tuina. Yet when using complementary treatments, the treatment can often be amazingly successful. Which brings me to my wife, Chana. Western Biomedicine was unsuccessful in treating her, as she was pan-allergic to western pharmaceuticals, and almost died from a reaction to Lamictal. Chinese medicine has been helpful in ameliorating ancillary symptoms, and building her up month to month, but has been completely unsuccessful in stopping the seizures. (you name it we've tried it, believe me!) Oh, BTW, in case you're wondering, she has had 5 MRIs in addition to CTscans, PETscans and EEGs. No evidence of hot foci or scars( though the PETscan did pick up a cold focus) as usually present with seizure disorders. Recently, a lumbar puncture was performed to rule out the presence of bacteria, virus or fungus in the cerebral spinal fluid. Negative. But after the LP, our neurologist suggested trying a new anti-convulsant, Keppra (Levetiracetam) which promisingly has presented with limited side effects. I immediately recognized the name as being similar to the Nootropic (cogniscent enhancing) drug Piracetam, and indeed Keppra is derived from it. Anyway, the first month, we used Keppra alone. Low and behold, no seizures! Yet there were 2 unpleasant side effects: reduced appetite and asthenia. Also, though seizures did not occur, her spasms, irritabililty and lack of focus seemed unchanged. After a month, we added Piracetam, and immediately noticed increased focus, mood enhancement and less weakness. We are now playing with the doses, and she continues to take Chinese herbs and specific nutraceuticals based upon her signs/symptoms. I am very hopeful that the long struggle is close to being over. As I mentioned previously, all along, I considered all the various factors that could have contributed to her condition, in order to determine the pathogenesis. I am now absolutely convinced that a series of ECT treatments given to her to treat post partum depression after the birth of her first daughter, (from her first husband), left a microscopic lesion, probably in her temporal lobe, which no scan was able to pick up, and which set in motion the electrical inbalance that eventually caused the seizures. In retrospect, this makes perfect sense to me, as it seems that the potency of the ECT, was so intensely damaging that only a Western pharmaceutical has been able to stop the pattern. As time goes on, I suspect her tremor, spasm and irritability will dissipate, as the electricity is slowly discharged. As this happens, Chinese medicine and other accompanying therapies will be more effective, in my opinion. But it will take time and patience. I will keep you informed as to her progress. --- On Sun, 9/6/09, martyeisen <martyeisen wrote: martyeisen <martyeisen Re: Digest Number 3174: epilepsy Chinese Medicine Sunday, September 6, 2009, 8:30 PM Yehuda: Was your wife able to master the method? One problem is the diffculty in learning. The other, like any form of Qigong or meditation, is the continual practice. My idea is that no learning is required and to practice you just relax and listen to the recording. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2009 Report Share Posted September 7, 2009 Yehuda, Thank you for the update and your heart-felt diary, which continues to inspire many. I'm sure that your wife's plight has made you a deep healer, so she is your teacher, as well as beloved patient. There is a story about a sick man who comes to a woman's house. She was the only one in the village who took the stranger in. Every night, she would get a dream about an herb growing in the forest and the next day she would pick it and administer it for the sick man. He would get better and then a new illness would arise. She would have another dream and pick another herb. Several years passed and finally the man was whole without illness. He walked into the forest, looked back and turned into a ....bear. The bear was teaching the village woman with a pure heart how to use the herbs in the forest. He was her teacher and she was his healer. Much respect, K On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 12:42 AM, wrote: > > > Remember, Marty, that each seizure is the body's attempt to discharge > electricity, often, unsuccessfully. Such was the case with my wife. Imagine > if you will, a seizure every 25 days or so, followed within the next few > days, by 5-8 post-ictal seizures, for 19 years. Do the math, and you > will realize that the number of seizures she has endured numbers well over > 1000! Besides the obvious damage they have done, one other consequence has > been a rawness, and an inability to concentrate. How could you expect > someone who harbors and is distracted by so much electricity, to be able > to focus, concentrate or engage in any relaxation technique? Believe me, > we tried, but the cumulative sequelae of the seizures have just been too > overwhelming for her to engage in any active relaxation--at least until > recently. > > But now that B " H it appears that the seizures have stopped, I am very > hopeful that slowly and gradually the body will naturally discharge the > electricity and simultaneously heal. > > Anecdotally, I will tell you that some years ago, she was seen by Dr. John > Upledger, the developer of CranioSacral therapy. An interesting therapy > that Dr. Upledger suggested was that daily, for an hour, we connect a metal > wire to Chana's leg, and attach it to a ground, to discharge the > electricity. It was yet another interesting idea, but had little effect. > > Personally, as a practitioner, I feel that the most important approach > that we can take when treating a patient, is to thoughtfully attempt to > determine the pathogenesis of the patient's condition, in addition > to determining the differential diagnosis. By considering all contributing > factors, and by determining its origin, we go back to the root of > the problem, and that knowledge can make all the difference in knowing how > to proceed, and with which appropriate therapy or therapies. I used > to naively believe that if I was good enough at it, that Chinese medicine > could resolve any condition. This in spite of hearing from my professors, > time and time again, that certain conditions could only be treated early in > their onset, and some not at all. Yet, my experience has taught me that > sometimes, a condition can manifest as a mineral or vitamin deficiency (eg. > peripheral neuropathy can possibly result from a > deficiency of Thiamine or B12; Bone spurs and/or osteoporosis can result > from magnesium deficiency), and may not be successfully treated by > acupuncture, moxa, herbs, diet, Qi gong or tuina. Yet when using > complementary treatments, the treatment can often be amazingly successful. > > > Which brings me to my wife, Chana. Western Biomedicine was unsuccessful in > treating her, as she was pan-allergic to western pharmaceuticals, and > almost died from a reaction to Lamictal. Chinese medicine has been helpful > in ameliorating ancillary symptoms, and building her up month to month, but > has been completely unsuccessful in stopping the seizures. (you name it > we've tried it, believe me!) Oh, BTW, in case you're wondering, she has had > 5 MRIs in addition to CTscans, PETscans and EEGs. No evidence of hot foci > or scars( though the PETscan did pick up a cold focus) as usually present > with seizure disorders. Recently, a lumbar puncture was performed to rule > out the presence of bacteria, virus or fungus in the cerebral spinal > fluid. Negative. > But after the LP, our neurologist suggested trying a new > anti-convulsant, Keppra (Levetiracetam) which promisingly has presented > with limited side effects. I immediately recognized the name as being > similar to the Nootropic (cogniscent enhancing) drug Piracetam, and > indeed Keppra is derived from it. Anyway, the first month, we used Keppra > alone. Low and behold, no seizures! Yet there were 2 unpleasant side > effects: reduced appetite and asthenia. Also, though seizures did not > occur, her spasms, irritabililty and lack of focus seemed unchanged. After > a month, we added Piracetam, and immediately noticed increased focus, mood > enhancement and less weakness. We are now playing with the doses, and she > continues to take Chinese herbs and specific nutraceuticals based upon her > signs/symptoms. I am very hopeful that the long struggle is close to being > over. > > As I mentioned previously, all along, I considered all the various factors > that could have contributed to her condition, in order to determine the > pathogenesis. I am now absolutely convinced that a series of ECT treatments > given to her to treat post partum depression after the birth of her first > daughter, (from her first husband), left a microscopic lesion, probably in > her temporal lobe, which no scan was able to pick up, and which set in > motion the electrical inbalance that eventually caused the seizures. In > retrospect, this makes perfect sense to me, as it seems that the potency of > the ECT, was so intensely damaging that only a Western pharmaceutical has > been able to stop the pattern. > > As time goes on, I suspect her tremor, spasm and irritability will > dissipate, as the electricity is slowly discharged. As this happens, > Chinese medicine and other accompanying therapies will be more effective, in > my opinion. But it will take time and patience. > > I will keep you informed as to her progress. > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 9/6/09, martyeisen <martyeisen%40aol.com> < > martyeisen <martyeisen%40aol.com>> wrote: > > martyeisen <martyeisen%40aol.com> <martyeisen<martyeisen%40aol.com> > > > Re: Digest Number 3174: epilepsy > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Sunday, September 6, 2009, 8:30 PM > > > > Yehuda: > > Was your wife able to master the method? > > One problem is the diffculty in learning. The other, like any form of > Qigong or meditation, is the continual practice. > > My idea is that no learning is required and to practice you just relax and > listen to the recording. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 Great message, Kokko: I can see why you are busy. These are the kinds of messages that make me stay on this listserve, through thick and thin. Yehuda, thank you for your great sharing. Anne Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com - " " <johnkokko " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > Monday, September 7, 2009 9:28:29 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Re: epilepsy and electricity  Yehuda, Thank you for the update and your heart-felt diary, which continues to inspire many. I'm sure that your wife's plight has made you a deep healer, so she is your teacher, as well as beloved patient. There is a story about a sick man who comes to a woman's house. She was the only one in the village who took the stranger in. Every night, she would get a dream about an herb growing in the forest and the next day she would pick it and administer it for the sick man. He would get better and then a new illness would arise. She would have another dream and pick another herb. Several years passed and finally the man was whole without illness. He walked into the forest, looked back and turned into a ....bear. The bear was teaching the village woman with a pure heart how to use the herbs in the forest. He was her teacher and she was his healer. Much respect, K On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 12:42 AM, yehuda frischman < >wrote: > > > Remember, Marty, that each seizure is the body's attempt to discharge > electricity, often, unsuccessfully. Such was the case with my wife. Imagine > if you will, a seizure every 25 days or so, followed within the next few > days, by 5-8 post-ictal seizures, for 19 years. Do the math, and you > will realize that the number of seizures she has endured numbers well over > 1000! Besides the obvious damage they have done, one other consequence has > been a rawness, and an inability to concentrate. How could you expect > someone who harbors and is distracted by so much electricity, to be able > to focus, concentrate or engage in any relaxation technique? Believe me, > we tried, but the cumulative sequelae of the seizures have just been too > overwhelming for her to engage in any active relaxation--at least until > recently. > > But now that B " H it appears that the seizures have stopped, I am very > hopeful that slowly and gradually the body will naturally discharge the > electricity and simultaneously heal. > > Anecdotally, I will tell you that some years ago, she was seen by Dr. John > Upledger, the developer of CranioSacral therapy. An interesting therapy > that Dr. Upledger suggested was that daily, for an hour, we connect a metal > wire to Chana's leg, and attach it to a ground, to discharge the > electricity. It was yet another interesting idea, but had little effect. > > Personally, as a practitioner, I feel that the most important approach > that we can take when treating a patient, is to thoughtfully attempt to > determine the pathogenesis of the patient's condition, in addition > to determining the differential diagnosis. By considering all contributing > factors, and by determining its origin, we go back to the root of > the problem, and that knowledge can make all the difference in knowing how > to proceed, and with which appropriate therapy or therapies. I used > to naively believe that if I was good enough at it, that Chinese medicine > could resolve any condition. This in spite of hearing from my professors, > time and time again, that certain conditions could only be treated early in > their onset, and some not at all. Yet, my experience has taught me that > sometimes, a condition can manifest as a mineral or vitamin deficiency (eg. > peripheral neuropathy can possibly result from a > deficiency of Thiamine or B12; Bone spurs and/or osteoporosis can result > from magnesium deficiency), and may not be successfully treated by > acupuncture, moxa, herbs, diet, Qi gong or tuina. Yet when using > complementary treatments, the treatment can often be amazingly successful. > > > Which brings me to my wife, Chana. Western Biomedicine was unsuccessful in > treating her, as she was pan-allergic to western pharmaceuticals, and > almost died from a reaction to Lamictal. Chinese medicine has been helpful > in ameliorating ancillary symptoms, and building her up month to month, but > has been completely unsuccessful in stopping the seizures. (you name it > we've tried it, believe me!) Oh, BTW, in case you're wondering, she has had > 5 MRIs in addition to CTscans, PETscans and EEGs. No evidence of hot foci > or scars( though the PETscan did pick up a cold focus) as usually present > with seizure disorders. Recently, a lumbar puncture was performed to rule > out the presence of bacteria, virus or fungus in the cerebral spinal > fluid. Negative. > But after the LP, our neurologist suggested trying a new > anti-convulsant, Keppra (Levetiracetam) which promisingly has presented > with limited side effects. I immediately recognized the name as being > similar to the Nootropic (cogniscent enhancing) drug Piracetam, and > indeed Keppra is derived from it. Anyway, the first month, we used Keppra > alone. Low and behold, no seizures! Yet there were 2 unpleasant side > effects: reduced appetite and asthenia. Also, though seizures did not > occur, her spasms, irritabililty and lack of focus seemed unchanged. After > a month, we added Piracetam, and immediately noticed increased focus, mood > enhancement and less weakness. We are now playing with the doses, and she > continues to take Chinese herbs and specific nutraceuticals based upon her > signs/symptoms. I am very hopeful that the long struggle is close to being > over. > > As I mentioned previously, all along, I considered all the various factors > that could have contributed to her condition, in order to determine the > pathogenesis. I am now absolutely convinced that a series of ECT treatments > given to her to treat post partum depression after the birth of her first > daughter, (from her first husband), left a microscopic lesion, probably in > her temporal lobe, which no scan was able to pick up, and which set in > motion the electrical inbalance that eventually caused the seizures. In > retrospect, this makes perfect sense to me, as it seems that the potency of > the ECT, was so intensely damaging that only a Western pharmaceutical has > been able to stop the pattern. > > As time goes on, I suspect her tremor, spasm and irritability will > dissipate, as the electricity is slowly discharged. As this happens, > Chinese medicine and other accompanying therapies will be more effective, in > my opinion. But it will take time and patience. > > I will keep you informed as to her progress. > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 9/6/09, martyeisen <martyeisen%40aol.com> < > martyeisen <martyeisen%40aol.com>> wrote: > > martyeisen <martyeisen%40aol.com> < martyeisen <martyeisen%40aol.com> > > > Re: Digest Number 3174: epilepsy > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> > Sunday, September 6, 2009, 8:30 PM > > > > Yehuda: > > Was your wife able to master the method? > > One problem is the diffculty in learning. The other, like any form of > Qigong or meditation, is the continual practice. > > My idea is that no learning is required and to practice you just relax and > listen to the recording. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 I share the frustration with you. My husband has focal epilepsy aka Jacksonian Epilepsy. He has constant continuous seizures. The seizures are throughout his body and finds them both annoying and embarrassing. Many people think he has hiccups when they see him. They can be more intense at times and have rattled his whole body from time to time. Over the years, many people have tried many different approaches. Some have worked but only for a short period of time before the seizures find their way back. He does suffer from Damp Heat with deficiency in the liver meridian due to taking a course of Acutaine for his cystic acne. I am wondering if his epilepsy was not caused by the Acutaine. I will certainly be researching it. Any ideas on how to clear up the side effects of western drugs would be helpful. ________________________________ Chinese Medicine Monday, September 7, 2009 3:42:28 AM epilepsy and electricity Remember, Marty, that each seizure is the body's attempt to discharge electricity, often, unsuccessfully. Such was the case with my wife. Imagine if you will, a seizure every 25 days or so, followed within the next few days, by 5-8 post-ictal seizures, for 19 years. Do the math, and you will realize that the number of seizures she has endured numbers well over 1000! Besides the obvious damage they have done, one other consequence has been a rawness, and an inability to concentrate. How could you expect someone who harbors and is distracted by so much electricity, to be able to focus, concentrate or engage in any relaxation technique? Believe me, we tried, but the cumulative sequelae of the seizures have just been too overwhelming for her to engage in any active relaxation-- at least until recently. But now that B " H it appears that the seizures have stopped, I am very hopeful that slowly and gradually the body will naturally discharge the electricity and simultaneously heal. Anecdotally, I will tell you that some years ago, she was seen by Dr. John Upledger, the developer of CranioSacral therapy. An interesting therapy that Dr. Upledger suggested was that daily, for an hour, we connect a metal wire to Chana's leg, and attach it to a ground, to discharge the electricity. It was yet another interesting idea, but had little effect. Personally, as a practitioner, I feel that the most important approach that we can take when treating a patient, is to thoughtfully attempt to determine the pathogenesis of the patient's condition, in addition to determining the differential diagnosis. By considering all contributing factors, and by determining its origin, we go back to the root of the problem, and that knowledge can make all the difference in knowing how to proceed, and with which appropriate therapy or therapies. I used to naively believe that if I was good enough at it, that Chinese medicine could resolve any condition. This in spite of hearing from my professors, time and time again, that certain conditions could only be treated early in their onset, and some not at all. Yet, my experience has taught me that sometimes, a condition can manifest as a mineral or vitamin deficiency (eg. peripheral neuropath y can possibly result from a deficiency of Thiamine or B12; Bone spurs and/or osteoporosis can result from magnesium deficiency), and may not be successfully treated by acupuncture, moxa, herbs, diet, Qi gong or tuina. Yet when using complementary treatments, the treatment can often be amazingly successful. Which brings me to my wife, Chana. Western Biomedicine was unsuccessful in treating her, as she was pan-allergic to western pharmaceuticals, and almost died from a reaction to Lamictal. Chinese medicine has been helpful in ameliorating ancillary symptoms, and building her up month to month, but has been completely unsuccessful in stopping the seizures. (you name it we've tried it, believe me!) Oh, BTW, in case you're wondering, she has had 5 MRIs in addition to CTscans, PETscans and EEGs. No evidence of hot foci or scars( though the PETscan did pick up a cold focus) as usually present with seizure disorders. Recently, a lumbar puncture was performed to rule out the presence of bacteria, virus or fungus in the cerebral spinal fluid. Negative. But after the LP, our neurologist suggested trying a new anti-convulsant, Keppra (Levetiracetam) which promisingly has presented with limited side effects. I immediately recognized the name as being similar to the Nootropic (cogniscen t enhancing) drug Piracetam, and indeed Keppra is derived from it. Anyway, the first month, we used Keppra alone. Low and behold, no seizures! Yet there were 2 unpleasant side effects: reduced appetite and asthenia. Also, though seizures did not occur, her spasms, irritabililt y and lack of focus seemed unchanged. After a month, we added Piracetam, and immediately noticed increased focus, mood enhancement and less weakness. We are now playing with the doses, and she continues to take Chinese herbs and specific nutraceuticals based upon her signs/symptoms. I am very hopeful that the long struggle is close to being over. As I mentioned previously, all along, I considered all the various factors that could have contributed to her condition, in order to determine the pathogenesis. I am now absolutely convinced that a series of ECT treatments given to her to treat post partum depression after the birth of her first daughter, (from her first husband), left a microscopic lesion, probably in her temporal lobe, which no scan was able to pick up, and which set in motion the electrical inbalance that eventually caused the seizures. In retrospect, this makes perfect sense to me, as it seems that the potency of the ECT, was so intensely damaging that only a Western pharmaceutical has been able to stop the pattern. As time goes on, I suspect her tremor, spasm and irritability will dissipate, as the electricity is slowly discharged. As this happens, Chinese medicine and other accompanying therapies will be more effective, in my opinion. But it will take time and patience. I will keep you informed as to her progress. www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com --- On Sun, 9/6/09, martyeisen (AT) aol (DOT) com <martyeisen (AT) aol (DOT) com> wrote: martyeisen (AT) aol (DOT) com <martyeisen (AT) aol (DOT) com> Re: Digest Number 3174: epilepsy Sunday, September 6, 2009, 8:30 PM Yehuda: Was your wife able to master the method? One problem is the diffculty in learning. The other, like any form of Qigong or meditation, is the continual practice. My idea is that no learning is required and to practice you just relax and listen to the recording. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2009 Report Share Posted September 13, 2009 In a message dated 9/7/09 6:30:10 AM, johnkokko writes: > Yehuda, > Thank you for the update and your heart-felt diary, > which continues to inspire many. > I'm sure that your wife's plight has made you a deep healer, > so she is your teacher, as well as beloved patient. > > There is a story about a sick man who comes to a woman's house. > She was the only one in the village who took the stranger in. > Every night, she would get a dream about an herb growing in the forest > and the next day she would pick it and administer it for the sick man. > He would get better and then a new illness would arise. > She would have another dream and pick another herb. > > Several years passed and finally the man was whole without illness. > He walked into the forest, looked back and turned into a ....bear. > > The bear was teaching the village woman with a pure heart > how to use the herbs in the forest. > He was her teacher and she was his healer. > > Much respect, > K > > TruthSayer, L.Ac., LMFT Diplomate in Oriental Medicine(NCCAOM) Acupuncture . Herbs . Psychotherapy Transcendental Acupuncture 2275 Market Street #C San Francisco, CA 94114 San Rafael CA 94901 415-686-1193 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 Sorry for my computer glitch. This sent twice without my message. Thanks Kokko, for your story. It reminds me of the magnificent book " The Lost Language of Plants, by Stephen Harrod Buhner " . We are all connected, if we can but be conscious. with love, TruthSayer > > In a message dated 9/7/09 6:30:10 AM, johnkokko writes: > > > Yehuda, > > Thank you for the update and your heart-felt diary, > > which continues to inspire many. > > I'm sure that your wife's plight has made you a deep healer, > > so she is your teacher, as well as beloved patient. > > > > There is a story about a sick man who comes to a woman's house. > > She was the only one in the village who took the stranger in. > > Every night, she would get a dream about an herb growing in the forest > > and the next day she would pick it and administer it for the sick man. > > He would get better and then a new illness would arise. > > She would have another dream and pick another herb. > > > > Several years passed and finally the man was whole without illness. > > He walked into the forest, looked back and turned into a ....bear. > > > > The bear was teaching the village woman with a pure heart > > how to use the herbs in the forest. > > He was her teacher and she was his healer. > > > > Much respect, > > K > > > TruthSayer, L.Ac., LMFT Diplomate in Oriental Medicine(NCCAOM) Acupuncture . Herbs . Psychotherapy Transcendental Acupuncture 2275 Market Street #C San Francisco, CA 94114 San Rafael CA 94901 415-686-1193 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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