shoving ANY 1 choice down our throats..to be 'correct' (OT-long)

[Guest guest]

morning to all--

Although I was raised in a 'christian' (Lutheran, to be exact)

household, I've always wished people: 'Happy Holidays', cause I've

always been aware that there are OTHER ways to celebrate this time of

year--and by saying that, it allows me to wish 'merry' on

everyone--WITHOUT exclusion, or hopefully, diss-respect.

 

What I've been having a hard time with, for several reasons, is (from

my viewpoint) the increasing obstinance from christians INSISTING that

the ONLY emphasis be on their celebration of this

season--Christmas--and to put down anyone who chooses to celebrate--or

give holiday wishes--to anyone, any differently!

 

From as far back as I can remember, I've always tried to the best of

my ability, to practice 'tollerance' for everyone's CHOICE in how they

percieve " GOD' or religious/spiritual persuits, and NOT force it down

anyone's throat that MY particular way of spiritual practices is the

ONLY way it should be done. Live and Let live--tollerance for all, is

my motto.

 

I cannot understand, for the life of me, WHY others can't do the same!

 

I live in a small town (est 3500 pop) and the direct proportion of

churches-to-bars can tell you quite alot about the people who live

here (almost 1-to-1 ratio). My Husband has taken alot of guff and

negative remarks from 'christians' in the area, voicing hearty

discontent at his CHOICE to put " SEASON'S GREATINGS " on our shop

windows in town.

 

I'm native in ancestory, and after much searching, and trial of just

about every religion out there, came 'home' to practicing my

traditional ways as acurately as possible in today's world. My husband

and kids, embrase the same.

 

And, if you REALLY want to get nit-picky--just about every darn

christian holiday is actually based on old-world pagan beliefs--to get

more interest and participation in 'christian' church to begin with.

 

I don't see it as being 'politically CORRECT'--but instead, the

INCLUSION of ALL spiritual practices, to say: season's greatings--or

the like to those I see on the street.

 

I also get really riled up at the remarks to 'put christ back in

christmas' type of stuff---ooooh, as far back as I can remember here

in the states--christmas has been MORE about worshiping the almighty

dollar, than it's EVER been, worshiping THE' ALMIGHTY.

 

For many years, while still a 'practicing' christian, I boycotted the

mass-marketing this time of year--I MADE presents as opposed to

spending money at all the shops marketing the 'season' to the masses!

 

I'm sorry if this ruffles anyone's feathers--but I've just had it up

to my eyeteeth with all of this for the past few years.

 

The 'founding fathers' of this country thought it best that religion

be SEPARATE from 'state' ---for GOOD reason....and in all other

aspects, I believe in the FREEDOME OF CHOICE--who ever told me I

COULDN'T pray in school, is a fool--but to FORCE me to pray--according

to a SPECIFIC religion, is altogether a different thing...see my point?

 

Diddn't the pilgrims flee to this continent for the FREEDOME to

practice the religion of their choice, to begin with? Where the heck

did that ideal go to, I'm wondering?

 

Butch--I'm all for all the yule-time celebrating you and yours are

doing this year--I think it's a wonderful thing, to be sure, and the

true 'beauty' of this season, to begin with!

 

If someone says " merry christmas' to me, sometimes I'll say the same

back to them--sometimes, not. But, the important thing I really

believe in, is to show consideration and respect to all---reguardless

of what way they choose to celebrate--or how they offer holiday

'salutations', eh?

 

goody

[Guest guest]

Hey folks,

 

I too have mainly wished people " happy holidays " for years. It seems

like a no-brainer to me.

 

>the increasing obstinance from christians INSISTING that

>the ONLY emphasis be on their celebration

 

Right. And thanks to that, it's also become increasingly difficult to

find good holiday cards. This is very distressing to me. I send cards

to clients, and I can't go sending Christmas cards to a bunch of

people whose holiday proclivities I'm not familiar with.

 

If other people want to take a " screw em if they get offended "

approach with *their* business, that's fine, but don't ask me to risk

alienating my customers. And I'm NOT adding a " which holiday(s) do

you celebrate - check all that apply " section to my intake forms. :-P

 

Anyway, I found more people this year saying " Merry Christmas " to me

a bit too... pointedly. I've got to laugh at that... what kind of

people use a holiday greeting as a weapon?

 

-Josh

 

PS: This article -- The War on Christmas, Mutually Assured

Embarrassment, is great:

http://www.wonkette.com/politics/war-on-christmas/the-war-on-christmas-mutually-\

assured-embarrassment-142203.php

[Guest guest]

Goody, and all others who are interested in this topic,

 

I think the reaction we are seeing from outraged Christians in their

" take-back-Christmas " campaign is a gut-level-enough-is-enough

response to atheists and other secularists who, for decades, have used

the courts and other forms of mass media communication to suppress, as

much as possible, any expression of religion beliefs and practices, in

the market place, the public arena and all government institutions. In

particular, they have attacked " Christ-mas " and tried to make that

word, itself, an acknowledgement by government of support for

Christianity. Only a few years ago it was a non-issue to say

" Season's Greetings " or " Happy Holidays " and no one got upset.

Christmas was celebrated as a time for family unity and an expression

of love by almost everyone, regardless of their religion--indeed, if

they even have one--and as a religious holiday almost secondarily.

I yearn for those old days when the religious implications of

Christmas was a matter of personal choice.

 

Nevertheless, I do feel that Christianity as the dominant religion in

American history is simply a part of our heritage as a nation and

should not be downgraded to a trivial footnote. By saying that, I do

not imply that other religious practices are not valid nor am I saying

that they are not important and have no place in our heritage. They

most certainly are important and do have their own place in America's

heritage! The need to worship something beyond ourselves and find

meaning in our lives is what defines us as humans--no other species

shows this trait. ALL have the right to practice--or not

practice--whatever form of worship feels " right " to them.

 

So I, personally, lay the blame at the feet of those who, for so many

years, have made an issue of the presence of Christian symbols, words

and other references in our culture and in particular, Christmas AS A

RELIGIOUS HOLIDAY, and tried to suppress its observance as such,

instead of just letting it continue to be a season of happiness and

joy for EVERYONE--however they want to observe it.

 

Having said that, I want to say I was raised in a Christian church but

I no longer find it necessary to attend and to some I would appear

apostate....but I consider that their problem, not mine. I continue to

practice privately an inner faith that has neither label nor name, and

it's my choice to do it this way.

 

All the best to you and yours (Sage, included!) for the coming year.

 

Mitsy

 

 

 

 

, " goody10062003 "

<goody10062003> wrote:

>

> morning to all--

[Guest guest]

Thank you!! I agree with everything you stated.

 

Julia

 

Graber Girl By Julia

Julia Graber Cregger

[Guest guest]

Goody,

 

Beautifully written. I work with several co-workers

who practice Judiasm, and two officemates who are very

Christian. We decorated in the office.. some garland,

one angel ornament, and some snowmen kind of things..

" Merry Christmas " magnets across the front of the

desks, etc. We're also down in a back corner in a

basement of our buildling, so very unlikely to offend.

 

 

My boss is Jewish. He brought us all Christmas

presents, in Christmas cards. He wished us all Merry

Christmas. We in turn, each got him something for

Hanukkah (the celebration began yesterday). A few

Jewish members wished us all Merry Christmas. I in

turn, said " Hope you have a relaxing weekend, and

Happy Hanukkah celebration! " Not a one seemed

offended. I have a couple of pagan friends to whom I

sent " Happy Stolcist " greetings. They in turn wished

me the same, and a Merry Christmas.

 

What seems so ironic is those who practice other

faiths (I had two hindu, one moslem, and one buddhist

member of our lab last year as well) all wished me a

merry Christmas, knowing that I celebrated that as my

main holiday, but knowing also that I accepted theirs,

wanted to learn about it, and kept up enough to wish

them Happy Chinese New Year, and other holidays that

were important to them, they had more respect for me

because they knew I respected what was important to

them. DEMANDING respect doesn't work... not in my

book.

 

It was very well stated by a couple of others, that

the devout Christians seem to be the ones who have a

problem accepting other faiths and Holidays.

 

That attitude made me run screaming and flailing my

arms from the church.

 

Kirstin

 

 

 

>

>

>

> ,

> " goody10062003 "

> <goody10062003> wrote:

> >

> > morning to all--

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

________

DSL – Something to write home about.

Just $16.99/mo. or less.

dsl.

[Guest guest]

Mitsy -- are you saying that Christians are persecuted in the United

States? ;-)

 

>response to atheists and other secularists who, for decades, have used

>the courts and other forms of mass media communication to suppress, as

>much as possible, any expression of religion beliefs and practices, in

>the market place, the public arena and all government institutions. In

>particular, they have attacked " Christ-mas " and tried to make that

>word, itself, an acknowledgement by government of support for

>Christianity.

[Guest guest]

I hope no one miss understood my meaning... I don't want anyone to think

that I don't respect all religions. I even see the value of some of the more

unsavory ones... I have studied many of them. I think that being PC has

gotten out of hand because it's leading to people being afraid to be proud

of who they are and where they come from. If everyone was to say Happy

Holidays and the Christians were afraid to say Merry christmas( The thing is

that people really should not be offended when someone wishes them Merry

Christmas because it is just another way of saying I wish you well on this

the ending of the year) it would be as much of a sin as being afraid to

express our individual faiths... I think the Native Americans should

celebrate, and that the pagans should celebrate and everyone on the earth

should at least find out a little bit about what other religions do for

their celebrations, I think that the schools should celebrate the

holidays...All of them because that is what they are supposed to be teaching

History... Right... I want everyone to know that I don't celebrate

Christmas in order to tick anyone off that's just the way I celebrate, and

if we are afraid to celebrate then we let one of the smallest things destroy

part of who we are... Fear is only good when it saves your life...

 

Jennifer

 

 

On Behalf Of goody10062003

Tuesday, December 27, 2005 8:58 AM

 

shoving ANY 1 choice down our throats..to be

'correct' (OT-long)

 

morning to all--

Although I was raised in a 'christian' (Lutheran, to be exact) household,

I've always wished people: 'Happy Holidays', cause I've always been aware

that there are OTHER ways to celebrate this time of year--and by saying

that, it allows me to wish 'merry' on everyone--WITHOUT exclusion, or

hopefully, diss-respect.

 

What I've been having a hard time with, for several reasons, is (from my

viewpoint) the increasing obstinance from christians INSISTING that the ONLY

emphasis be on their celebration of this season--Christmas--and to put down

anyone who chooses to celebrate--or give holiday wishes--to anyone, any

differently!

 

From as far back as I can remember, I've always tried to the best of my

ability, to practice 'tollerance' for everyone's CHOICE in how they percieve

" GOD' or religious/spiritual persuits, and NOT force it down anyone's throat

that MY particular way of spiritual practices is the ONLY way it should be

done. Live and Let live--tollerance for all, is my motto.

 

I cannot understand, for the life of me, WHY others can't do the same!

 

I live in a small town (est 3500 pop) and the direct proportion of

churches-to-bars can tell you quite alot about the people who live here

(almost 1-to-1 ratio). My Husband has taken alot of guff and negative

remarks from 'christians' in the area, voicing hearty discontent at his

CHOICE to put " SEASON'S GREATINGS " on our shop windows in town.

 

I'm native in ancestory, and after much searching, and trial of just about

every religion out there, came 'home' to practicing my traditional ways as

acurately as possible in today's world. My husband and kids, embrase the

same.

 

And, if you REALLY want to get nit-picky--just about every darn christian

holiday is actually based on old-world pagan beliefs--to get more interest

and participation in 'christian' church to begin with.

 

I don't see it as being 'politically CORRECT'--but instead, the INCLUSION of

ALL spiritual practices, to say: season's greatings--or the like to those I

see on the street.

 

I also get really riled up at the remarks to 'put christ back in christmas'

type of stuff---ooooh, as far back as I can remember here in the

states--christmas has been MORE about worshiping the almighty dollar, than

it's EVER been, worshiping THE' ALMIGHTY.

 

For many years, while still a 'practicing' christian, I boycotted the

mass-marketing this time of year--I MADE presents as opposed to spending

money at all the shops marketing the 'season' to the masses!

 

I'm sorry if this ruffles anyone's feathers--but I've just had it up to my

eyeteeth with all of this for the past few years.

 

The 'founding fathers' of this country thought it best that religion be

SEPARATE from 'state' ---for GOOD reason....and in all other aspects, I

believe in the FREEDOME OF CHOICE--who ever told me I COULDN'T pray in

school, is a fool--but to FORCE me to pray--according to a SPECIFIC

religion, is altogether a different thing...see my point?

 

Diddn't the pilgrims flee to this continent for the FREEDOME to practice the

religion of their choice, to begin with? Where the heck did that ideal go

to, I'm wondering?

 

Butch--I'm all for all the yule-time celebrating you and yours are doing

this year--I think it's a wonderful thing, to be sure, and the true 'beauty'

of this season, to begin with!

 

If someone says " merry christmas' to me, sometimes I'll say the same back to

them--sometimes, not. But, the important thing I really believe in, is to

show consideration and respect to all---reguardless of what way they choose

to celebrate--or how they offer holiday 'salutations', eh?

 

goody

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, Joshua Alexander

<listservs@e...> wrote:

>

> Mitsy -- are you saying that Christians are persecuted in the United

> States? ;-)

 

Not at all, Josh.....just stating facts of record that started at

least 40 years ago with Madlyn Murray O'Hare when the lawsuit she

brought at that time resulted in prayer being taken out of public

schools. I've lived through it all...as an adult.....and have been an

observer of the political scene for decades. Secularists have

successfully won many lawsuits to have crosses removed from public

property, manger scenes disallowed from community Christmas scenes,

plaques bearing the Ten Commandments removed from courtrooms and

judicial buildings, " under God " in the Pledge of Allegience declared

" unconstitutional " and the list goes on. School officials across the

country do not allow the singing of traditional songs that celebrate

the birth of the Christian messiah in their school programs and

children have been told not to wear crosses around their necks to

school or t-shirts with any kind of religious message on them. Boy

Scouts have had their problems for forbidding homosexual Scout

Masters. " Politically incorrect " and/or religious organizations have

been forbidden from using meeting rooms in public schools....after

school hours. This doesn't even scratch the surface of what has been

occurring over the past several decades and what we see today with all

this " Christmas " brouhaha is not an isolated Holy War. This storm has

been brewing for decades and mainstream Christians are now fighting

back.

 

I am more of an objective observer and don't have any axe to

grind....except with those who speak so loudly about " tolerance " but

cannot see that they, themselves, are the most intolerant of all...and

they could be on either side.

 

Mitsy

[Guest guest]

Okay, now this I do believe in... our original pledge

didn't have the " under God " added until 1952 by an

overzealous president who couldn't separate church and

state. Notice our National Anthem doesn't have any

mention of God in it? F. Scott Key's original stanzas

only included a mention of his chosen diety in the

second verse, second line from the end. Did we adopt

it for our National song? No, we didn't. We only

adopted the first. As a Christian, I'm okay with

that. I prefer to keep my church FAR away from the

State, thankyouverymuch.. and vice versa.

 

I admit, coming from British roots on my mother's

side.. we said " Holidays. " Reason being, holidays

means vacation, and everybody takes vacation at this

time, so happy holidays means have a great vacation.

It's too bad it's misconstrued by some to mean

something entirely different. :-(

 

Kirstin

 

 

--- seagrape1954 <seagrape wrote:

 

" under God " in the Pledge of

> Allegience declared

> " unconstitutional "

 

 

 

________

DSL – Something to write home about.

Just $16.99/mo. or less.

dsl.

[Guest guest]

> Okay, now this I do believe in... our original pledge

> didn't have the " under God " added until 1952 by an

> overzealous president who couldn't separate church and

> state.

 

You are so right about that, Kirstin, and I, personally, think it is

important to instill patriotism in the public arena (i.e. schools and

society-at-large) and leave religious beliefs to the family and church

and private religious schools.

 

I would be happy with thinking of the end of year celebration as a

" Goodwill Holiday " and let everyone celebrate it the way they

want...and no one take offense at anyone else's practice. After all,

it IS the " season of good will " , is it not?

 

Incidentally, the very word " holiday " has, as it's root, " holy day " .

" Religion " has far more influence on everything about us than most of

us realize.

 

Mitsy

 

 

> I admit, coming from British roots on my mother's

> side.. we said " Holidays. " Reason being, holidays

> means vacation, and everybody takes vacation at this

> time, so happy holidays means have a great vacation.

> It's too bad it's misconstrued by some to mean

> something entirely different. :-(

>

> Kirstin

>

>

> --- seagrape1954 <seagrape@b...> wrote:

>

> " under God " in the Pledge of

> > Allegience declared

> > " unconstitutional "

>

>

>

> ________

> DSL – Something to write home about.

> Just $16.99/mo. or less.

> dsl.

>