Comfort For Terminal Cancer Patients -- TCM ??

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

 

I can speak directly about this. I just finished six months chemotherapy. And I

did it using TCM to support myself while doing so

 

HOWEVER - I think its important to be under the care of a practitioner who knows

the interactions of chemo/radiation and herbs/vitamins. I saw a western ND, who

specializes in cancer, and it was on his advice that I even did chemotherapy. I

wasnt keen to do so, having been sick and in hospital for so long, the thought

of feeling like crap for another 6 months was not something I thought I wanted

to do. His advice was to go ahead, and he would give me herbs and vitamins which

would support my body during the course of treatment.

 

The cancer clinic was adamant about no other kinds of medicines, including

vitamins whilst on chemo, but I told them I what I would be doing, and that

there was no discussion. But there are herbs that definitely should not be taken

during chemo or radiation - anti-oxidants for example

 

I would not say it was one of the better experiences of my life, but I did get

through it, and from what I could see, with the minimum amount of effect. I was

very tired for two weeks out of the four (for six cycles) which was my treatment

cycle, and its only now, two months after my last treatment, that I am beginning

to feel myself again. But on the positive side, I kept my hair, albeit its now

curly.

 

However, I was prescribed TCM to support my body - not to treat the cancer.

Cancer treatments are evolving very quickly, and are no longer as horrendous as

they once were. I would hope that within a few years, alternative medicine and

allopathic cancer care are integrated.

 

Mary

Well, Naturally

http://www.wellnaturally.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

Butch Owen

Sunday, December 11, 2005 11:28 PM

Comfort For Terminal Cancer Patients -- TCM ??

 

 

Hey Josh .. other good folks ..

 

I understand that the above subject is a bit off from what I am now

commenting on .. but there was one post that sort of suggested that TCM

practitioners viewed the side affects of cancer treatments as something

they can deal with .. so what I am commenting on might be worth reading.

 

I know perzackly NOTHING about TCM .. I read about it but that's all.

 

I understand that some folks on alternative treatment lists like this

one often get their knickers in a knot if someone dares to question TCM

or any of the other alternative modalities .. its kicking a sacred cow.

But I ain't kicking the cow .. I really wanna know more about TCM.

 

Do I believe acupuncture and hypnosis can be effective alternative or

complementary treatments in such cases? Yes! This is because I know

(personally) of cases where they were effective.

 

> Ugh...

>

>>TCM plays an auxiliary role in cancer treatment. It treats side

>>effects of conventional therapies, helps control pain, and helps

>>keep the immune system strong.

 

Probably .. the above is true .. but maybe its being kind!

 

> I found the graphic descriptions of the ways in which allopathic

> medicine wants us to view and use the gifts of TCM as nothing more

> than an enabler very disturbing. When I think of people submitting to

> radiation burns, or getting weaker and weaker from their chemotherapy

> pills, I get pretty angry. Seems like modern day blood letting to me,

> and attempting to institutionalize TCM as something to help folks go

> through it sits very poorly with me.

 

Who on this list can quote factual, personal information (not opinion,

hearsay or marketing hype) on the effectiveness of TCM against the side

effects of cancer? Over the years I've seen many posts that recommend

TCM, Native American healing and various Shamanic practices for this and

that .. but nobody quotes the rates of success of these treatments.

Maybe they are successful .. but how can we know?

 

I know 3 people on this list who are cancer survivors. One is a double

survivor. Odds are good that we have many more on the list and odds are

they all went through the treatments described above.

 

Anybody on this list ever used TCM as a complementary treatment?

 

If anyone has information beyond the romanticizing of the effectiveness

of TCM, I think folks on the list would like to read about it. We in

the AT community often claim that many allopathic medicine treatments

suck and some others are better for various reasons. I think we might

be right to concentrate on the terrible business aspects of modern

medicine but we maybe shouldn't lose sight of the advances in science

that allow medical miracles to occur. We gotta avoid thinking like

YL'ers .. who go strictly on blind faith .. or is it brainwashing?

 

Me .. if I come down with a cancer I will probably try some remedies I

believe in and even some I might not believe in .. unless they tell me

I'm going under snakes in a short time if I don't take their treatment

and they recommend against alternative or complementary treatments. But

they gotta give me better than mere hope for success.

 

If one of my loved ones came down with a cancer .. I doubt if I would

take the position above .. I think I would wanna listen to the medical

doctors who specialize in cancer treatment regardless of the immediate

need .. and I would recommend my loved one do exactly what they say.

What I am willing to risk for me I'm not willing to risk for them.

 

And .. from what I gather from readings .. TCM is not used all that much

in China. For that matter, due to the fact that their social medicine

system is at best poor .. often little treatment of any kind is used.

Often poor folks (which are most folks) are left in the corner to die.

 

The World Health Organization (WHO) says that Cancer is the second cause

of death in China .. vascular disease is the first.

http://www.whocancerpain.wisc.edu/eng/8_3/chinese.html

 

The above information is dated .. since 1996 cancer is the No. 1 killer.

http://www.peregrineinc.com/content.php?id=151

 

If TCM is a tried and true ancient complementary treatment modality ..

I would think they have ample opportunity to practice it because in the

last 20 years the mortality rate from cancers other than lung cancer in

China increased from 12.5% to 18% .. for lung cancer it increased

111.8%. That's the information reported at this URL

http://www.asco.org/ac/1,1003,_12-002521-00_18-0029395-00_19-0029396-00_20-001,0\

0.asp

 

When we have a lot of faith in TCM are we merely rehashing the Wisdom of

the Ancients and the mysticism of the Noble Savage without having the

facts? That's a question. I don't know the answer but I would like to

know more about it.

 

From the hasty research I've conducted, I am inclined to believe that

TCM might work about as well as does the Chinese political and social

systems .. but I'm willing to change my mind in the face of evidence to

the contrary. I certainly hope that it works better than their social

medicine system.

 

I can probably accept that the AMA and FDA and major pharmaceutical

companies would prefer to not implement alternative or complementary

treatments of any type in the USA .. it took chiropractors damn near a

generation to be recognized .. but we generally pay for our medical

treatment and I think the system didn't want to split the profits. But

can anyone tell me why those countries that practice social medicine

would not grasp alternative modalities IF they have centuries of tried

and true results .. and if they are cost effective .. and really work?

 

Can somebody show me that TCM is more than fancy psychological Voo Doo

and show me that TCM is really practiced all that much in China?

 

If it is akin to psychological Voo Doo and it works .. then its good!

 

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/AA/content/AA_2_5_8x_China.asp?sitearea=AA

 

http://www.asiapundit.com/2005/11/cancer_in_china.html

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/03/000310080143.htm

 

http://www.wishus.org/researchpapers/ReviewQG4Cancer.pdf

 

http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/03/09/cancer.study/

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=1\

1977635 & dopt=Abstract

 

http://dceg.cancer.gov/pdfs/irlcc.pdf

 

http://www.geographie.uni-muenchen.de/geomed/pdf_presentations/07_Sat_Rukang.pdf

 

http://www.ovarian-cancer-cure.com/

 

There are five more pages of URLs on this subject on just one search

engine .. http://www.dogpile.com .. type in .. Cancer in China

 

> -Josh

 

Y'all keep smiling. :-) Butch http://www.AV-AT.com

 

 

 

 

The information contained in these e-mails is not a substitute

for diagnosis and treatment by a qualified, licensed professional.

 

 

Step By Step Instructions For Making Herbal Labna Cheese! So easy, SO yummy!

http://www.aromaticsage.com/cz.htm

 

 

To adjust your group settings (i.e. go no mail) see the following link:

/join

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hey Josh .. other good folks ..

 

I understand that the above subject is a bit off from what I am now

commenting on .. but there was one post that sort of suggested that TCM

practitioners viewed the side affects of cancer treatments as something

they can deal with .. so what I am commenting on might be worth reading.

 

I know perzackly NOTHING about TCM .. I read about it but that's all.

 

I understand that some folks on alternative treatment lists like this

one often get their knickers in a knot if someone dares to question TCM

or any of the other alternative modalities .. its kicking a sacred cow.

But I ain't kicking the cow .. I really wanna know more about TCM.

 

Do I believe acupuncture and hypnosis can be effective alternative or

complementary treatments in such cases? Yes! This is because I know

(personally) of cases where they were effective.

 

> Ugh...

>

>>TCM plays an auxiliary role in cancer treatment. It treats side

>>effects of conventional therapies, helps control pain, and helps

>>keep the immune system strong.

 

Probably .. the above is true .. but maybe its being kind!

 

> I found the graphic descriptions of the ways in which allopathic

> medicine wants us to view and use the gifts of TCM as nothing more

> than an enabler very disturbing. When I think of people submitting to

> radiation burns, or getting weaker and weaker from their chemotherapy

> pills, I get pretty angry. Seems like modern day blood letting to me,

> and attempting to institutionalize TCM as something to help folks go

> through it sits very poorly with me.

 

Who on this list can quote factual, personal information (not opinion,

hearsay or marketing hype) on the effectiveness of TCM against the side

effects of cancer? Over the years I've seen many posts that recommend

TCM, Native American healing and various Shamanic practices for this and

that .. but nobody quotes the rates of success of these treatments.

Maybe they are successful .. but how can we know?

 

I know 3 people on this list who are cancer survivors. One is a double

survivor. Odds are good that we have many more on the list and odds are

they all went through the treatments described above.

 

Anybody on this list ever used TCM as a complementary treatment?

 

If anyone has information beyond the romanticizing of the effectiveness

of TCM, I think folks on the list would like to read about it. We in

the AT community often claim that many allopathic medicine treatments

suck and some others are better for various reasons. I think we might

be right to concentrate on the terrible business aspects of modern

medicine but we maybe shouldn't lose sight of the advances in science

that allow medical miracles to occur. We gotta avoid thinking like

YL'ers .. who go strictly on blind faith .. or is it brainwashing?

 

Me .. if I come down with a cancer I will probably try some remedies I

believe in and even some I might not believe in .. unless they tell me

I'm going under snakes in a short time if I don't take their treatment

and they recommend against alternative or complementary treatments. But

they gotta give me better than mere hope for success.

 

If one of my loved ones came down with a cancer .. I doubt if I would

take the position above .. I think I would wanna listen to the medical

doctors who specialize in cancer treatment regardless of the immediate

need .. and I would recommend my loved one do exactly what they say.

What I am willing to risk for me I'm not willing to risk for them.

 

And .. from what I gather from readings .. TCM is not used all that much

in China. For that matter, due to the fact that their social medicine

system is at best poor .. often little treatment of any kind is used.

Often poor folks (which are most folks) are left in the corner to die.

 

The World Health Organization (WHO) says that Cancer is the second cause

of death in China .. vascular disease is the first.

http://www.whocancerpain.wisc.edu/eng/8_3/chinese.html

 

The above information is dated .. since 1996 cancer is the No. 1 killer.

http://www.peregrineinc.com/content.php?id=151

 

If TCM is a tried and true ancient complementary treatment modality ..

I would think they have ample opportunity to practice it because in the

last 20 years the mortality rate from cancers other than lung cancer in

China increased from 12.5% to 18% .. for lung cancer it increased

111.8%. That's the information reported at this URL

http://www.asco.org/ac/1,1003,_12-002521-00_18-0029395-00_19-0029396-00_20-001,0\

0.asp

 

When we have a lot of faith in TCM are we merely rehashing the Wisdom of

the Ancients and the mysticism of the Noble Savage without having the

facts? That's a question. I don't know the answer but I would like to

know more about it.

 

From the hasty research I've conducted, I am inclined to believe that

TCM might work about as well as does the Chinese political and social

systems .. but I'm willing to change my mind in the face of evidence to

the contrary. I certainly hope that it works better than their social

medicine system.

 

I can probably accept that the AMA and FDA and major pharmaceutical

companies would prefer to not implement alternative or complementary

treatments of any type in the USA .. it took chiropractors damn near a

generation to be recognized .. but we generally pay for our medical

treatment and I think the system didn't want to split the profits. But

can anyone tell me why those countries that practice social medicine

would not grasp alternative modalities IF they have centuries of tried

and true results .. and if they are cost effective .. and really work?

 

Can somebody show me that TCM is more than fancy psychological Voo Doo

and show me that TCM is really practiced all that much in China?

 

If it is akin to psychological Voo Doo and it works .. then its good!

 

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/AA/content/AA_2_5_8x_China.asp?sitearea=AA

 

http://www.asiapundit.com/2005/11/cancer_in_china.html

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/03/000310080143.htm

 

http://www.wishus.org/researchpapers/ReviewQG4Cancer.pdf

 

http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/03/09/cancer.study/

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=1\

1977635 & dopt=Abstract

 

http://dceg.cancer.gov/pdfs/irlcc.pdf

 

http://www.geographie.uni-muenchen.de/geomed/pdf_presentations/07_Sat_Rukang.pdf

 

http://www.ovarian-cancer-cure.com/

 

There are five more pages of URLs on this subject on just one search

engine .. http://www.dogpile.com .. type in .. Cancer in China

 

> -Josh

 

Y'all keep smiling. :-) Butch http://www.AV-AT.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Butch & folks,

 

Just to be clear, I'm in full support of people who choose to go

through chemo/radiation/other western treatments using TCM and other

tools in complementary roles. I also support those who choose not to

undergo whatever western treatments they're not comfortable with.

 

What rankled me about the description in the email was the WAY it

cast TCM as " auxiliary " ... in my response I called it " attempting to

institutionalize [i.e. fix, trap] TCM " into a certain role... another

word for it would be " sublating " (in the Hegelian sense). If Western

allopathy and other models can truly merge, then I might support

that. If, however, allopaths simply want to sublate TCM (and

any/every other non-allopathic technique out there) into their

current power structure, that I cannot support.

 

>When we have a lot of faith in TCM are we merely rehashing the Wisdom of

>the Ancients and the mysticism of the Noble Savage without having the

>facts?

 

TCM is not a static antique. It continues to grow and change as its

practitioners continue to practice and research. That it's seen more

growth outside of China doesn't seem really relevant to me. Shiatsu's

renaissance happened outside Japan (thanks to the U.S.), and that

doesn't invalidate what folks are doing in places like England with

it.

 

When we have a lot of faith in modern allopathy (especially new,

fairly untested cancer treatments like the pill my grandma is on),

are we merely rehashing the Promise of Progress and the mysticism of

Salvation through Technology without having the facts?

 

The other thing that I find rankling is the aura of " objective

science " in which allopathy has managed to shroud itself, hiding

large questions of faith... even as it seeks to criticize other

models for having (or simply failing to hide?) the same.

 

I know this doesn't quite address your questions, Butch... but the

question of proof isn't as important to me as the question of power.

Medicine here is as often about money as it is healing... I don't

care what model is being used, as long as it's being used in a

client-centered, egalitarian manner.

 

This may explain why I responded to the original email the way I

did... I didn't disagree with the overt meanings of what was stated

so much as the languaging used. You know, if the situation were

reversed and the acupuncturists were in control and acting like those

in our current system do... poor allopaths struggling to be heard,

constantly attacked with attempts to discredit them... I'd probably

be studying to be a pharmacist or something ;-)

 

Best,

Josh