superfatting at trace - math?

[Guest guest]

Hey folks,

 

Just curious about this whole adding oils at trace thing... I was

using the lye calculator at the-sage.com and it gives a % range for

how much lye to use, from 0% excess fat to 10%.

 

So let's say I want to start preparing the soap for 0% excess, and

then add oils/butters at trace to come to a certain percent, e.g. 5%

or 8% or whatever... how do I calculate how much extra stuff to add?

 

-Josh

[Guest guest]

Hi Josh,

 

Sorry I am of no help, I do not superfat, I just always shoot for a 5%

range.

 

Surely there is someone on the list that can help you out.

 

Sorry :-(

 

Vickie

 

Gladys (Vickie) Swaim

 

Tierra De Cabros Goat Milk Bath Products

 

http://tierradecabros.bizhosting.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Why go to all that trouble ? When you get to trace, the lye isn't done reacting

with the oils yet - it an take up to 48 hours. Anything you add at trace is

going to react with some of the oils you add and not react with some of the oils

already in the mix. When I run a recipe thru a calc, I tell it how much super

fat I want and it figures the amount of the lye I need to get that amount of

super fat. I've tried doing it the way you describe and the only difference I

found was in the amount of extra work figuring the oils and trying to get them

mixed in to the soap in time before it started to set up. It's much easier to

just figure the superfat percent into the recipe.

Paula .......... in Michigan

I used to have super powers but my therapist took them away

 

 

Hey folks,

 

Just curious about this whole adding oils at trace thing... I was

using the lye calculator at the-sage.com and it gives a % range for

how much lye to use, from 0% excess fat to 10%.

 

So let's say I want to start preparing the soap for 0% excess, and

then add oils/butters at trace to come to a certain percent, e.g. 5%

or 8% or whatever... how do I calculate how much extra stuff to add?

 

-Josh

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Josh,

 

Here's the method for superfatting at trace. Make sure that you calculate your

lye at 0% superfat. You just need to know your total batch weight (add

everything, including additives). I usually account for evaporation by adding

only 50% of the water for the total batch weight. You're going to lose between

1/3 to 1/2 of the water to evaporation. Then you just add 1 Tbsp. of whatever

superfat oil you want to use per pound of soap. This makes it easy to

specifically superfat with a particular oil, or a combination of oils of your

choosing. HTH, Tam

 

Joshua Alexander <listservs wrote:

Hey folks,

 

Just curious about this whole adding oils at trace thing... I was

using the lye calculator at the-sage.com and it gives a % range for

how much lye to use, from 0% excess fat to 10%.

 

So let's say I want to start preparing the soap for 0% excess, and

then add oils/butters at trace to come to a certain percent, e.g. 5%

or 8% or whatever... how do I calculate how much extra stuff to add?

 

-Josh

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the info, Paula & Tam...

 

So I did read that the lye isn't done reacting with the oils but...

it has *started* reacting with quite a bit, yes? So if I use, say,

olive oil and wait until trace, and then add cocoa butter... versus

mixing the oil & butter together from the beginning... wouldn't it

stand to reason that one would end up with different bars? Makes

sense, but maybe it isn't so...

 

Any other opinions on this?

 

-Josh

[Guest guest]

Hi Josh,

 

You're absolutely right. It has to do with how much lye is available to react

with the oil to facilitate the saponification process. If you compute your

formula for 0% superfat, you're adding enough lye to completely saponify all of

the oils in your recipe. So if you add an amount in EXCESS of what is needed to

completely saponify the oil, the properties of the fatty acids in the excess oil

you chose to superfat with are " available " as a bonus in your final product.

This is because there isn't any lye left available to chemically react with the

excess oil. So yes, there is some residual reaction, but not enough to change

the excess oil.

 

The lye calculators work on the same principle. They " discount " the lye to tell

you an amount of lye needed to " leave " a certain percentage of oil unsaponified.

But in this case, every oil that was chosen for your recipe will be between

1-10% unsaponified (or by whatever percentage you wanted to superfat). In the

previous example, you get to choose what oils you want to superfat with for a

particular result.

 

So yes you would end up with different bars based on the superfat method you

chose to use.

 

BTW, you can also superfat by up to 10% using the 0% lye calculation method (the

general rule of thumb is 1 Tbsp/pp of oil). What you would do is take your

total weight of oils (only) in your recipe, and compute what 1% of that amount

is, 2% of that amount is, and so on up to 10%. Then add that amount (based on

the superfat % you want) of oil at trace. As you can see, the choice is yours.

Happy soaping - HTH, Tam

 

Joshua Alexander <listservs wrote:

Thanks for the info, Paula & Tam...

 

So I did read that the lye isn't done reacting with the oils but...

it has *started* reacting with quite a bit, yes? So if I use, say,

olive oil and wait until trace, and then add cocoa butter... versus

mixing the oil & butter together from the beginning... wouldn't it

stand to reason that one would end up with different bars? Makes

sense, but maybe it isn't so...

 

Any other opinions on this?

 

-Josh

[Guest guest]

HI Josh,

 

Lye doesn't care what oils it reacts with. It doesn't make any

difference whether you add your superfatting oils at trace of with all

your other oils. The chemical reaction goes on indefinitely because it

is never neutralized.

 

HTH, Sherry

http://www.AuntHelens.com

Lye, Displays, Molds, Cutter, Lanolin, Pine Tar, EXLG & SM Tea Bags,

Clays, Gr. Apricot Meal & Shell, Shaving Brushes, Whole Powdered Milk &

Flax Seeds

Having a soapy day ;o)

 

 

 

On 14 Oct 2005 , at 3:34 PM, wrote:

 

> So I did read that the lye isn't done reacting with the oils but...

> it has *started* reacting with quite a bit, yes? So if I use, say,

> olive oil and wait until trace, and then add cocoa butter... versus

> mixing the oil & butter together from the beginning... wouldn't it

> stand to reason that one would end up with different bars? Makes

> sense, but maybe it isn't so...

>

> Any other opinions on this?

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Tam,

 

Thanks for the explanation... so I don't have to mess with SAP values

for the superfatting part? Thanks for bearing with me, let me repeat

back my understanding so I can be sure I'm clear:

 

If I am using 100 ounces of olive oil with enough lye to saponify it

all (calculate for 0% superfat), I can add 1 to 10 ounces of any

other oil or butter at trace to superfat to 1% to 10%? It doesn't

matter what the SAP value of the additional used is?

 

Best,

Josh

 

>BTW, you can also superfat by up to 10% using the 0% lye calculation

>method (the general rule of thumb is 1 Tbsp/pp of oil). What you

>would do is take your total weight of oils (only) in your recipe,

>and compute what 1% of that amount is, 2% of that amount is, and so

>on up to 10%. Then add that amount (based on the superfat % you

>want) of oil at trace. As you can see, the choice is yours.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Josh,

 

I have to agree with the posts that said that you really don't have to

mess with WHICH oil is the one that is " superfatting " cause pretty much

as long as you're doing it CP - the lye is reacting with everything in

your pot until its all turned into the chemical compound known as soap -

and that takes many hours to happen. So if you make an all olive soap

and then add some say almond oil right before you mold it .. its turning

that almond oil, along with all the oils in the pot, into soap. Its not

going to differentiate between oils just because you tossed one into the

mix 5 minutes later than another. The lye hasn't neutralized enough in

any way shape or form for that to matter. So for sanity's sake you might

as well just calculate and incorporate whatever oils you want in your

batch all at once.

 

The whole thing about " superfatting " is that there is excess oil in the

finished soap because there is more oil than it takes lye to turn it

into soap. The only TRUE way to keep one particular oil from reacting

with the lye is to make a rebatched soap and add your excess

" superfatting " oil during the rebatching process, cause at that point

you don't have any lye in the soap product, so the oil stays as the oil

with all of it individual properties, chemically unchanged.

 

If you really want to do it the way you were originally planning - go to

a good lye calculator and calculate your main oils to 0%, then go back

and edit the recipe and add the supplemental oils till the recipe

reaches whatever superfatting level you want (say 6%) and then add those

additional oils at the end right before you mold the soap

 

Happy Monday all! It was a lovely full moon last night - and we're

having amazingly fantastic weather here!

 

*Smile*

Chris (list mom - I got in the vanilla beans and I am about to be up to

my elbows in them!)

 

Think left and think right and think low and think high. Oh, the thinks

you can think up if only you try!

- Dr Seuss

 

<http://www.alittleolfactory.com/> http://www.alittleolfactory.com

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Joshua Alexander

 

 

Hi Tam,

 

Thanks for the explanation... so I don't have to mess with SAP values

for the superfatting part? Thanks for bearing with me, let me repeat

back my understanding so I can be sure I'm clear:

 

If I am using 100 ounces of olive oil with enough lye to saponify it

all (calculate for 0% superfat), I can add 1 to 10 ounces of any

other oil or butter at trace to superfat to 1% to 10%? It doesn't

matter what the SAP value of the additional used is?

 

Best,

Josh

 

>BTW, you can also superfat by up to 10% using the 0% lye calculation

>method (the general rule of thumb is 1 Tbsp/pp of oil). What you

>would do is take your total weight of oils (only) in your recipe,

>and compute what 1% of that amount is, 2% of that amount is, and so

>on up to 10%. Then add that amount (based on the superfat % you

>want) of oil at trace. As you can see, the choice is yours.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Josh,

 

No you don't have to worry about SAP values, because you adding oils or butters

in excess of what will be used for saponification. Tam

 

Naturally Yours,

 

Tamara Shortt

 

Iao Natural Products

3104 O Street, Suite 305

Sacramento, CA 95816

 

tes0677

 

 

Joshua Alexander <listservs wrote:

Hi Tam,

 

Thanks for the explanation... so I don't have to mess with SAP values

for the superfatting part? Thanks for bearing with me, let me repeat

back my understanding so I can be sure I'm clear:

 

If I am using 100 ounces of olive oil with enough lye to saponify it

all (calculate for 0% superfat), I can add 1 to 10 ounces of any

other oil or butter at trace to superfat to 1% to 10%? It doesn't

matter what the SAP value of the additional used is?

 

Best,

Josh

 

>BTW, you can also superfat by up to 10% using the 0% lye calculation

>method (the general rule of thumb is 1 Tbsp/pp of oil). What you

>would do is take your total weight of oils (only) in your recipe,

>and compute what 1% of that amount is, 2% of that amount is, and so

>on up to 10%. Then add that amount (based on the superfat % you

>want) of oil at trace. As you can see, the choice is yours.