Guest guest Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 The following is an email I received from a good friend. I' ve know these people a long time and remember when the first " incident " happened -- and now its happened again. She refers to " routing number " , I asked her about that and she is talking about all the numbers at the bottom of the check -- which includes both the routing and account number. I also asked about the spam mail we all get from Pay Pal -- she addresses that too. I have removed their names and added Jane and John Doe. I have also added another email that is going around about identity theft. This is scary stuff and we all must be very careful -- because it can and does happen. Rita Hi There - This afternoon, I found out, while checking my bank account activity by phone, that someone has used our main checking accounts' routing number (off of one of my checks), somehow accessed my PayPal account, through PayPal purchased a mobile phone from a company in Germany and had it shipped to a location in Vietnam. I have the confirmation of payment email from PayPal. After talking to the Bank One and PayPal people and filing disputes, I went into Greeley and closed my checking account, on their advice - the one I've had for over 28 years, since we moved to Gilcrest. I just reordered/received 800 new checks too. Great. I've reported this fraud to the credit reporting services, and will have to call all credit card people, insurance companies, the whole works, to notify them of the fraud. I told the bank guy, we were fraud victims last year, off someone's unauthorized use of my debit card, which I had to close/replace at that time. I asked him, what's the safer thing to use now - checks or debit cards - since we've had someone steal our checking account number AND a debit card number both. He said, it doesn't really matter. The thieves don't care; whatever they can get away with, they'll use. He said, they'll double scan/copy the check routing numbers or debit card numbers; keep track of the numbers to use or sell later on. There are so many ways to copy and use your personal bank info, keeping close track of the activity on your accounts is the only thing you can really do. Also, not use a 3rd party paying system, like PayPal, and not letting your credit/debit card out of your sight, while paying for anything. So easy at restaurants/some shops, huh? I asked him, if they ever catch these people. He said, rarely. The bank will contact the companies we have automatic deposits/withdrawals for - like John's pay check, our car insurance, etc. At least, that's something I don't have to do. He also told me, I was the 4th person in TODAY, he had to close/change accounts for, due to identity theft. When I was speaking to the PayPal rep, she said it had to be either John or me, as it had to be someone that knew the PayPal sign-in info. I told her, John doesn't know the password, etc., I set up with PayPal over 2 years ago and John has never ordered anything online using PayPal. Plus, when we were victims last May 2004, we cancelled the debit card I used exclusively to buy things on eBay AND I did not put any new card info down, on the advice of our banker. She was adamant, that it had to be John or I, stating we opened our PayPal account in May 2004. I told her again, that was the date when we contacted PayPal about the fraud last year. There is no record of when I initially opened that PayPal account, just May 2004, when we had the fraudulent activity. Interesting - especially for any of you who may still use PayPal. Want to reconsider? She also told me, after this is resolved, I can close my PayPal account. However, by law, it will remain in their records for 7 years. The PayPal rep told me, the person who used my account, signed in as " JJDoe. " I only use JJ Doe, for " online " things - not wanting anyone to know if I'm male/female - trying to keep some anonymity AND never when I write checks. So, that was quite interesting also. Who knows how they got my PayPal password, since I don't have it listed anywhere, and no one else knows it. In any other normal, real-life ordering/banking, etc., I always use Jane Doe. Somehow/somewhere/someone got my account number, accessed my PayPal account and ordered that phone. So, in 7 - 10 days, I'll get my new checks for a new bank account and a new debit card, and still wonder " who " did it and how? Keep your eyes on your accounts! That's 2x for us, within 15 months. This is her reponse to my email with questions -- Jan and Joan are their daughters -- it is important info - please read it YES - forward this to any of your family/friends. It's an eye opener to us all, isn't it? As soon as the issue is resolved with PayPal, I'm closing the account - even if it has to be on/in their records for 7 years. Why they can't find an original date on my account is interesting. It is very odd and frankly, scary - about them not having my original sign-up date anywhere. Maybe they do, but the rep I talked to, said they didn't have it. Just the May 2004 date that was shown. And, how did the thieves sign-in to my account; obtain my password??? Scary, again! I get those phishing PayPal emails all the time too - " Click Here and update your PERSONAL info or be FROZEN out of your account with us. " I get tons from other banks, eBay, etc. too. Since I know about phishing (that fraudulent ways to get suckers to give away their account #'s to lazy thieves via email) and haven't used PayPal since April 2004, I automatically delete those emails. The email with the actual order, that I have, did truly originate from my PayPal account. I logged-in and checked it myself; changed password too. If I wasn't checking my bank account by phone, so I could balance our account to pay bills yesterday, I wouldn't have known about it until it was probably too late, and all our money was gone; causing even more problems. After that 'lovely' discovery, I went online to check my account and found it right away; called the bank immediately; started that ball rolling. I guess it pays to be a little paranoid these days, after all, huh? About the 4-in-one day at the bank - the other 3 people live in a cul- de-sac, near Jan and Joan, and their cars, that were parked on the street, were broken into and personal info was stolen. The police advised them to close accounts, etc. There were more victims, but those 3 were Bank One/Chase customers. What idiots leave that kind of personal info/stuff in their cars, parked on the street??? Not after this for sure! This is another email that is going around >Identity thieves posing as court workers are calling people around the >country -- including Michigan -- to tell them they failed to report for jury >duty, that a warrant has been issued for their arrest and then ask for a >Social Security number and other personal information. > > " We heard about it Aug. 12 from the U.S. District Court in Nebraska, " David >Weaver, administrator of U.S. District Court in Detroit, said Thursday. " The >court in northern Ohio had a similar complaint. " >He said a check of his staff turned up a complaint from a Traverse City >woman who said she had given personal information to just such a caller. > >Weaver said court workers are trying to contact the woman to find out what >happened and whether her personal information was used. > >Weaver said similar scams have occurred in Arizona and Oregon. >Bernard Friedman, chief judge of U.S. District Court in Detroit, issued a >warning Thursday to Michigan residents to prevent any identity thefts here. > >Weaver said anyone who has received such a call should call 313-234- 2619 >anytime to report the problem. He said the information would be turned over >to the U.S. Attorney's Office Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 I only transfer money into Pay Pal just before I buy something.The checking account I use is also a " lean " account to put into pay pal.I can't believe how much I see thins stuff going on.Its very sad.Ravenstone --- ritabohn2001 <ritabohn2001 wrote: > The following is an email I received from a good > friend. I' ve know > these people a long time and remember when the first > " incident " > happened -- and now its happened again. She refers > to " routing > number " , I asked her about that and she is talking > about all the > numbers at the bottom of the check -- which includes > both the routing > and account number. I also asked about the spam mail > we all get from > Pay Pal -- she addresses that too. > > I have removed their names and added Jane and John > Doe. I have also > added another email that is going around about > identity theft. > > This is scary stuff and we all must be very careful > -- because it can > and does happen. > > Rita > > Hi There - > > This afternoon, I found out, while checking my bank > account activity > by phone, that someone has used our main checking > accounts' routing > number (off of one of my checks), somehow accessed > my PayPal account, > through PayPal purchased a mobile phone from a > company in Germany and > had it shipped to a location in Vietnam. I have the > confirmation of > payment email from PayPal. > > After talking to the Bank One and PayPal people and > filing disputes, > I went into Greeley and closed my checking account, > on their advice - > the one I've had for over 28 years, since we moved > to Gilcrest. I > just reordered/received 800 new checks too. Great. > > I've reported this fraud to the credit reporting > services, and will > have to call all credit card people, insurance > companies, the whole > works, to notify them of the fraud. > > I told the bank guy, we were fraud victims last > year, off someone's > unauthorized use of my debit card, which I had to > close/replace at > that time. I asked him, what's the safer thing to > use now - checks > or debit cards - since we've had someone steal our > checking account > number AND a debit card number both. He said, it > doesn't really > matter. The thieves don't care; whatever they can > get away with, > they'll use. He said, they'll double scan/copy the > check routing > numbers or debit card numbers; keep track of the > numbers to use or > sell later on. There are so many ways to copy and > use your personal > bank info, keeping close track of the activity on > your accounts is > the only thing you can really do. Also, not use a > 3rd party paying > system, like PayPal, and not letting your > credit/debit card out of > your sight, while paying for anything. So easy at > restaurants/some > shops, huh? > > I asked him, if they ever catch these people. He > said, rarely. > > The bank will contact the companies we have > automatic > deposits/withdrawals for - like John's pay check, > our car insurance, > etc. At least, that's something I don't have to do. > He also told > me, I was the 4th person in TODAY, he had to > close/change accounts > for, due to identity theft. > > When I was speaking to the PayPal rep, she said it > had to be either > John or me, as it had to be someone that knew the > PayPal sign-in > info. I told her, John doesn't know the password, > etc., I set up > with PayPal over 2 years ago and John has never > ordered anything > online using PayPal. Plus, when we were victims > last May 2004, we > cancelled the debit card I used exclusively to buy > things on eBay AND > I did not put any new card info down, on the advice > of our banker. > > She was adamant, that it had to be John or I, > stating we opened our > PayPal account in May 2004. I told her again, that > was the date when > we contacted PayPal about the fraud last year. > There is no record of > when I initially opened that PayPal account, just > May 2004, when we > had the fraudulent activity. Interesting - > especially for any of you > who may still use PayPal. Want to reconsider? She > also told me, > after this is resolved, I can close my PayPal > account. However, by > law, it will remain in their records for 7 years. > > The PayPal rep told me, the person who used my > account, signed in > as " JJDoe. " I only use JJ Doe, for " online " things > - not wanting > anyone to know if I'm male/female - trying to keep > some anonymity AND > never when I write checks. So, that was quite > interesting also. Who > knows how they got my PayPal password, since I don't > have it listed > anywhere, and no one else knows it. In any other > normal, real-life > ordering/banking, etc., I always use Jane Doe. > > Somehow/somewhere/someone got my account number, > accessed my PayPal > account and ordered that phone. > > So, in 7 - 10 days, I'll get my new checks for a new > bank account and > a new debit card, and still wonder " who " did it and > how? > > Keep your eyes on your accounts! That's 2x for us, > within 15 months. > > This is her reponse to my email with questions -- > Jan and Joan are > their daughters -- it is important info - please > read it > > YES - forward this to any of your family/friends. > It's an eye opener > to us all, isn't it? As soon as the issue is > resolved with PayPal, > I'm closing the account - even if it has to be on/in > their records > for 7 years. Why they can't find an original date > on my account is > interesting. > > It is very odd and frankly, scary - about them not > having my original > sign-up date anywhere. Maybe they do, but the rep I > talked to, said > they didn't have it. Just the May 2004 date that > was shown. And, > how did the thieves sign-in to my account; obtain my > password??? > Scary, again! > > I get those phishing PayPal emails all the time too > - " Click Here and > update your PERSONAL info or be FROZEN out of your > account with us. " > I get tons from other banks, eBay, etc. too. Since > I know about > phishing (that fraudulent ways to get suckers to > give away their > account #'s to lazy thieves via email) and haven't > used PayPal since > April 2004, I automatically delete those emails. > > The email with the actual order, that I have, did > truly originate > from my PayPal account. I logged-in and checked it > myself; changed > password too. If I wasn't checking my bank account > by phone, so I > could balance our account to pay bills yesterday, I > wouldn't have > known about it until it was probably too late, and > all our money was > gone; causing even more problems. After that > 'lovely' discovery, I > went online to check my account and found it right > away; called the > bank immediately; started that ball rolling. I > guess it pays to be a > little paranoid these days, after all, huh? > > About the 4-in-one day at the bank - the other 3 > people live in a cul- > de-sac, near Jan and Joan, and their cars, that were > parked on the > street, were broken into and personal info was > stolen. The police > advised them to close accounts, etc. There were > more victims, but > those 3 were Bank One/Chase customers. What idiots > leave that kind > of personal info/stuff in their cars, parked on the > street??? Not > after this for sure! > > This is another email that is going around > > >Identity thieves posing as court workers are > calling people around > the > >country -- including Michigan -- to tell them they > failed to report > for jury > >duty, that a warrant has been issued for their > arrest and then ask > for a > >Social Security number and other personal > information. > > > > " We heard about it Aug. 12 from the U.S. District > Court in > Nebraska, " David > >Weaver, administrator of U.S. District Court in > Detroit, said > Thursday. " The > >court in northern Ohio had a similar complaint. " > >He said a check of his staff turned up a complaint > from a Traverse > City > >woman who said she had given personal information > to just such a > caller. > > > >Weaver said court workers are trying to contact the > woman to find > out what > >happened and whether her personal information was > used. > > > >Weaver said similar scams have occurred in Arizona > and Oregon. > >Bernard Friedman, chief judge of U.S. District > Court in Detroit, > issued a > >warning Thursday to Michigan residents to prevent > any identity > thefts here. > > > >Weaver said anyone who has received such a call > should call 313-234- > 2619 > >anytime to report the problem. He said the > information would be > turned over > >to the U.S. Attorney's Office > > > > > > __ Start your day with - make it your home page http://www./r/hs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 I've had a pay pal account for I don't remember how many years but it's more than 5 or 6 years. I change my pass word every few weeks and I've had a problem. Anytime I get anything from Pay Pal or eBay that is addressed to 'Dear customer' I send it to spoof or spoof Any time I get anything from pay pal or eBay addressed to me by my name, I never s - I always go to my account and sign in from their web site. Anytime you pay for anything with a check, it passes thru many. many hands before it gets to your bank and anyone along the way, even employees at your bank can make a note of the numbers and reuse them. People who have never heard of pay pal and people who have never touched a computer have their identity stolen all the time. I'll keep using pay pal and continue to keep a close eye on my pay pal account and my checking account Paula .......... in Michigan The following is an email I received from a good friend. I' ve know these people a long time and remember when the first " incident " happened -- and now its happened again. She refers to " routing number " , I asked her about that and she is talking about all the numbers at the bottom of the check -- which includes both the routing and account number. I also asked about the spam mail we all get from Pay Pal -- she addresses that too. I have removed their names and added Jane and John Doe. I have also added another email that is going around about identity theft. This is scary stuff and we all must be very careful -- because it can and does happen. Rita Hi There - This afternoon, I found out, while checking my bank account activity by phone, that someone has used our main checking accounts' routing number (off of one of my checks), somehow accessed my PayPal account, through PayPal purchased a mobile phone from a company in Germany and had it shipped to a location in Vietnam. I have the confirmation of payment email from PayPal. After talking to the Bank One and PayPal people and filing disputes, I went into Greeley and closed my checking account, on their advice - the one I've had for over 28 years, since we moved to Gilcrest. I just reordered/received 800 new checks too. Great. I've reported this fraud to the credit reporting services, and will have to call all credit card people, insurance companies, the whole works, to notify them of the fraud. I told the bank guy, we were fraud victims last year, off someone's unauthorized use of my debit card, which I had to close/replace at that time. I asked him, what's the safer thing to use now - checks or debit cards - since we've had someone steal our checking account number AND a debit card number both. He said, it doesn't really matter. The thieves don't care; whatever they can get away with, they'll use. He said, they'll double scan/copy the check routing numbers or debit card numbers; keep track of the numbers to use or sell later on. There are so many ways to copy and use your personal bank info, keeping close track of the activity on your accounts is the only thing you can really do. Also, not use a 3rd party paying system, like PayPal, and not letting your credit/debit card out of your sight, while paying for anything. So easy at restaurants/some shops, huh? I asked him, if they ever catch these people. He said, rarely. The bank will contact the companies we have automatic deposits/withdrawals for - like John's pay check, our car insurance, etc. At least, that's something I don't have to do. He also told me, I was the 4th person in TODAY, he had to close/change accounts for, due to identity theft. When I was speaking to the PayPal rep, she said it had to be either John or me, as it had to be someone that knew the PayPal sign-in info. I told her, John doesn't know the password, etc., I set up with PayPal over 2 years ago and John has never ordered anything online using PayPal. Plus, when we were victims last May 2004, we cancelled the debit card I used exclusively to buy things on eBay AND I did not put any new card info down, on the advice of our banker. She was adamant, that it had to be John or I, stating we opened our PayPal account in May 2004. I told her again, that was the date when we contacted PayPal about the fraud last year. There is no record of when I initially opened that PayPal account, just May 2004, when we had the fraudulent activity. Interesting - especially for any of you who may still use PayPal. Want to reconsider? She also told me, after this is resolved, I can close my PayPal account. However, by law, it will remain in their records for 7 years. The PayPal rep told me, the person who used my account, signed in as " JJDoe. " I only use JJ Doe, for " online " things - not wanting anyone to know if I'm male/female - trying to keep some anonymity AND never when I write checks. So, that was quite interesting also. Who knows how they got my PayPal password, since I don't have it listed anywhere, and no one else knows it. In any other normal, real-life ordering/banking, etc., I always use Jane Doe. Somehow/somewhere/someone got my account number, accessed my PayPal account and ordered that phone. So, in 7 - 10 days, I'll get my new checks for a new bank account and a new debit card, and still wonder " who " did it and how? Keep your eyes on your accounts! That's 2x for us, within 15 months. This is her reponse to my email with questions -- Jan and Joan are their daughters -- it is important info - please read it YES - forward this to any of your family/friends. It's an eye opener to us all, isn't it? As soon as the issue is resolved with PayPal, I'm closing the account - even if it has to be on/in their records for 7 years. Why they can't find an original date on my account is interesting. It is very odd and frankly, scary - about them not having my original sign-up date anywhere. Maybe they do, but the rep I talked to, said they didn't have it. Just the May 2004 date that was shown. And, how did the thieves sign-in to my account; obtain my password??? Scary, again! I get those phishing PayPal emails all the time too - " Click Here and update your PERSONAL info or be FROZEN out of your account with us. " I get tons from other banks, eBay, etc. too. Since I know about phishing (that fraudulent ways to get suckers to give away their account #'s to lazy thieves via email) and haven't used PayPal since April 2004, I automatically delete those emails. The email with the actual order, that I have, did truly originate from my PayPal account. I logged-in and checked it myself; changed password too. If I wasn't checking my bank account by phone, so I could balance our account to pay bills yesterday, I wouldn't have known about it until it was probably too late, and all our money was gone; causing even more problems. After that 'lovely' discovery, I went online to check my account and found it right away; called the bank immediately; started that ball rolling. I guess it pays to be a little paranoid these days, after all, huh? About the 4-in-one day at the bank - the other 3 people live in a cul- de-sac, near Jan and Joan, and their cars, that were parked on the street, were broken into and personal info was stolen. The police advised them to close accounts, etc. There were more victims, but those 3 were Bank One/Chase customers. What idiots leave that kind of personal info/stuff in their cars, parked on the street??? Not after this for sure! This is another email that is going around >Identity thieves posing as court workers are calling people around the >country -- including Michigan -- to tell them they failed to report for jury >duty, that a warrant has been issued for their arrest and then ask for a >Social Security number and other personal information. > > " We heard about it Aug. 12 from the U.S. District Court in Nebraska, " David >Weaver, administrator of U.S. District Court in Detroit, said Thursday. " The >court in northern Ohio had a similar complaint. " >He said a check of his staff turned up a complaint from a Traverse City >woman who said she had given personal information to just such a caller. > >Weaver said court workers are trying to contact the woman to find out what >happened and whether her personal information was used. > >Weaver said similar scams have occurred in Arizona and Oregon. >Bernard Friedman, chief judge of U.S. District Court in Detroit, issued a >warning Thursday to Michigan residents to prevent any identity thefts here. > >Weaver said anyone who has received such a call should call 313-234- 2619 >anytime to report the problem. He said the information would be turned over >to the U.S. Attorney's Office Step By Step Instructions On Making Rose Petal Preserves: http://www.av-at.com/stuff/rosejam.html To adjust your group settings (i.e. go no mail) see the following link: /join Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2005 Report Share Posted August 25, 2005 Yikes. Thanks Rita. But the paypal emails never come from PayPal, just from people pretending to be PP. Rats, I LIKE PayPal! Have not used it much, but occasionally I have to send money to my business partner in Vermont, and the bank charges her an insane amount to cash a small cheque, in US dollars at that, from a Canadian account. So we use PayPal. Too bad to hear it cannot be trusted. I am just not suspicious by nature. Ien in the Kootenays ******************************* Stop. Breathe. Smile! ~Padma ( my TV yoga teacher) See my smiling face: http://www.greatestnetworker.com/is/ien ******************************* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2005 Report Share Posted August 25, 2005 It is getting pretty hard to have faith in anything other than stuffing cash in the mattress. A friend recently had a card number hijacked that he's not used in at least 2 years. Never left his wallet. There were a couple small purchases (less than $200 total), and then it stopped. The card company told him that is " the latest " . The thieves take a bit from lots of cards, and many people never even know they were hit. Also... about a month ago, someone hit several herb-type lists with an incredible offer - $5 for tons of information (I'm not getting too specific, because it *might* be legit). I know 3 people who ordered it, and none of them have received it yet. To me, that just looked like a good way to get credit card information, and the old adage - if it looks too good to be true, it probably is - kept playing through my head. On the other hand, many people will forget they ordered it, while most others won't work too hard to get $5 back. So either way.... We all just need to be very vigilant with our statements. Tina _The Essential Herbal Magazine_ (http://www.essentialherbal.com/) _Essential Herbal Blog_ (http://theessentialherbal.blogspot.com/) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2005 Report Share Posted August 25, 2005 Would you hand over all your checking account info to someone who pops up claiming to be from your bank ? I would hope that you would first contact the bank to verify that this person is a bank employee. If you send any info in answer to anything that looks like it came from pay pal with out checking first, that is exactly what you are doing. NEVER click on anything that looks like it came from pay pal with out going to the pay pal site and checking for new notices. Just because your local bank has an actual building doesn't automatically mean your money is safe there. You still need to keep an eye on the account and report anything 'funny' right away. A friend of ours works for Ford Motor Co. and has direct deposit for his pay checks - doesn't own a computer. A month or 2 ago, he started getting over draft notices on his checking account. He knew there was no way he was over drawn so he started to look closer at his bank account. Seems someone at his bank was helping themselves to some of his pay check every week. After the bank got quite a few more complaints that money was missing from accounts, the bank dug a bit deeper and found that there 5 or 6 employees that handled the direct deposit accounts were helping themselves to a bit of everyone's pay check. The part that ticked me off the most was that the bank didn't want to do any checking into the possibility that someone was dipping in to the accounts until they had quite a large number of complaints. Now nearly 3 months later, they have told the people who got ripped off that they are working on replacing their missing money and changing the way these accounts are handled. I've never had that kind of problem with pay pal - I change my password roughly every month and keep a close watch on the account and anytime I have a question or complaint, pay pal answers me way quicker than the banks around here do. I've had a pay pal account before I started my business, I now use pay pal daily for my business and will keep using it. I can take credit card payments cheaper than if I used my neighborhood bank and I recently heard from pay pal that I can take credit card payments from people with out them having a pay pal account (have to check in to that a bit more). Paula .......... in Michigan Yikes. Thanks Rita. But the paypal emails never come from PayPal, just from people pretending to be PP. Rats, I LIKE PayPal! Have not used it much, but occasionally I have to send money to my business partner in Vermont, and the bank charges her an insane amount to cash a small cheque, in US dollars at that, from a Canadian account. So we use PayPal. Too bad to hear it cannot be trusted. I am just not suspicious by nature. Ien in the Kootenays ******************************* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2005 Report Share Posted August 25, 2005 As a banker by trade, I wanted to add to this subject. There are many many times when your credit card is out of your possession. When you use it in a restaurant to pay for dinner for example, we had a case here in Canada where a group worked in a restaurant and when they were handed the credit card they would swipe it in a small device, which would read all the information in the strip. What made this incredible to me was that the instrument used to swipe the card was soo small that it fit in the waiter/resses hands. Moral of this story, if you want to keep your card safe, never ever, not even for a minute let it out of your sight. And no bank will ever call you and ask you for your banking information, they will not ask for your expiry date or for you to tell them the number on the card so that they can confirm it, and NEVER will they ask for your PIN numbers, we don't need them, and its none of our business. I have never had a problem with paypal of any other organization, my password could never be guessed and besides the credit cards I use for my purchases have a low limit, and the bank is not authorized to process any transaction that will make me over limit. Banks will only allow 30 days from the date you recieve your statement to report any disrepancies, after that you are on the hook in mose cases. Carol > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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