Guest guest Posted July 8, 2005 Report Share Posted July 8, 2005 Hi Martin, >Anyone who uses these substances in a product for use on the skin are >playing with fire and inviting a customer to sue you. There is no >safety data on these extracts and if anything is going to cause a skin >reaction those extracts are. As pointed out previously, they are waste >products and contain who knows what natural chemicals in who knows what >proportions. You are referring to the flower waxes right?? What do you think about using these waxes in soap where it will be washed off?? I can understand your reasoning on the leave on products. >In the case of CO2 extracts they are highly likely to >contain the plants sensitising chemicals that hot distillation often >destroys or removes. My question is why on earth are these extracts made?? Are they to be used for AT purposes like in a blend specifically for inhalation or room fragrancing? Where do folks come up with the information that they can be used safely in skin care products? I first learned about using them in a skin care book. So to get benefits of say calendula, is it better to make an infusion or tincture with dried material? Or fresh petals? What about calendula infused oils? I know this is a lot of questions and I really look forward to what you will answer. >You people are just inviting the kind of >draconian legislation being imposed on us in Europe. It now looks like >tea tree oil is going to be banned and nothing aromatherapists say will >stop it. This is indeed unfortunate! I guess until further notice I should cease the use of co2 extracts in any skin care products that I make. Margaret Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2005 Report Share Posted July 9, 2005 >This is indeed unfortunate! I guess until further notice I should cease the >use of co2 extracts in any skin care products that I make. What's the difference between not using CO2 extracts because of restrictive laws and not using CO2 extracts because of the fear of restrictive laws? -Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2005 Report Share Posted July 9, 2005 Hey Josh, >What's the difference between not using CO2 extracts because of >restrictive laws and not using CO2 extracts because of the fear of >restrictive laws? I guess I am more concerned with causing a sensitivity issue by using the co2 extracts more so than the fear of restrictive laws. I surely don't want to make a product that causes someone discomfort or irritation, know what I mean. Margaret Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2005 Report Share Posted July 9, 2005 >You are referring to the flower waxes right?? What do you think< >about using these waxes in soap where it will be washed off??< I would not use any extract in any product for the skin that was for resale to the public unless I had some indication of its safety. As far as I am aware there has been no safety testing done on these co2 waste products. >My question is why on earth are these extracts made??< As I said before, they are waste products from extraction of essential oils or absolutes. >Where do folks come up with the information that they can be< >used safely in skin care products?< I expect they invent it! Think we had a similar scenario over folded orange extracts. People on this group claimed there was safety data, but it turned out it was just sales hype combined with the maker claiming safety applicable to its use at minute levels in the food flavour trade. >So to get benefits of say calendula, is it better to make< >an infusion or tincture< You can use an infusion as the water phase of a cream, but to get the maximum benefit from the petals you need to make an oil maceration as well, for example by using a slow cooker on low for about two days. One thing that is vital with this kind of preparation is an effective preservative as these creams grow mold at a fast pace otherwise. Re the legislation. I have talked about this loads of times on this group. In Europe now it is illegal to put any cosmetic product on the market whose ingredients do not have any safety data. The reason for this is because the sensitization issue is such a time bomb. The next piece of legislation looks as if neat tea tree oil will be banned from retail sale AND use in cosmetic preparations. The Australian growers are having discussions with the EEC on this, but I have my doubts they will prevent the ban. The small home product industry in the USA are still creating and selling products that are known to be dangerous, let alone those products such as those using CO2 wastes with unknown safety. Last time I was in Canada for example someone gave me two bars of soap. One made with cinnamon bark oil and one made with verbena oil. Both are banned in cosmetic products by the big boys in the trade who DO know what they are doing. I have warned before on this group and others that you are inviting the iron fist to fall on you, but it seems to go in one ear and out the other. Martin Watt , " Margaret Helm-Duell " . > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2005 Report Share Posted July 9, 2005 This may be true of floral waxes... in the case of CO2 totals, my understanding is that it takes extra work (higher pressure) to make them versus the CO2 extracts... meaning they are being made intentionally. I don't think it's fair to call them waste products, even though they may (or may not) be even *more* dangerous than floral waxes. > >My question is why on earth are these extracts made??< >As I said before, they are waste products from extraction of >essential oils or absolutes. And one reason they're made, I think, is because we know that hexane (etc) is bad for all of us. I'm happy to hear people are developing ways to stop using it. Sounds like the only *problem* here is that no one's done any safety testing. Why not? What drives that process? -Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2005 Report Share Posted July 10, 2005 It may be that the term 'co2 totals' has a different meaning in the USA to here in the UK. I know a company here who do c02 extraction and will check this out more. My understanding was this term was used to describe the residue left after the various co2 phases had been removed from the concrete. With co2 you can choose which molecules to extract depending on the customers needs, so you may only want the flavoring molecules if for food, or the fragrance molecules if for perfumes. Thinking about it, perhaps this term in the USA means the combination of those molecules to produce a " whole " extract. Either way, unless the extract has undergone formal safety testing it should not be used in skin care products. >Sounds like the only *problem* here is that no< >one's done any safety testing. Why not? What drives that process?< Safety testing is driven by the International fragrance and cosmetics trade. They are the REAL experts in this matter. If anyone is selling essential oils and other fragrance extracts without knowing about safety issues, then they should be ashamed of themselves. Such traders are leading us all into having draconian legislation imposed because of the potential and real harm they are causing to the public. Regretfully, there are still many like this in the USA and Canada who ignore, or are ignorant of, all safety issues of the products they sell and make. Martin Watt http://www.aromamedical.com ----------- , Joshua Alexander <listservs@e...> wrote: > This may be true of floral waxes... in the case of CO2 totals, my > understanding is that it takes extra work (higher pressure) to make > them versus the CO2 extracts... meaning they are being made > intentionally. I don't think it's fair to call them waste products, > even though they may (or may not) be even *more* dangerous than > floral waxes. > > > >My question is why on earth are these extracts made??< > >As I said before, they are waste products from extraction of > >essential oils or absolutes. > > And one reason they're made, I think, is because we know that hexane > (etc) is bad for all of us. I'm happy to hear people are developing > ways to stop using it. Sounds like the only *problem* here is that no > one's done any safety testing. Why not? What drives that process? > > -Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2005 Report Share Posted July 10, 2005 > > >Sounds like the only *problem* here is that no< > >one's done any safety testing. Why not? What drives that process?< > > Safety testing is driven by the International fragrance and cosmetics > trade. They are the REAL experts in this matter. If anyone is selling > essential oils and other fragrance extracts without knowing about > safety issues, then they should be ashamed of themselves. Such traders > are leading us all into having draconian legislation imposed because of > the potential and real harm they are causing to the public. > Regretfully, there are still many like this in the USA and Canada who > ignore, or are ignorant of, all safety issues of the products they sell > and make. > Hi Martin, How can I, (as one who makes natural perfumes) know for certain if a material has undergone formal safety testing? If it is not listed in your book, should I assume it has not been tested yet? Thanks for your most informative posts! Michelle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2005 Report Share Posted July 10, 2005 I have more questions about this safety testing, what it looks like, how much it costs, how to get it done. Perhaps if there were some kind of association (and maybe there is) of people like the ones on this list, we'd be able to do safety testing on the new items (such as CO2 extracts & totals) we're interested in without having to wait for some big cosmetics company to do it. -Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 Formal safety testing has to be done by dermatologists and the results published in the appropriate scientific journals. This kind of testing is done by the cosmetics and fragrance trades and costs tens of thousands. There is not a chance this cottage industry could conduct those kinds of trials. The only way round that is to pay to have a formulation tested as a whole formula. This can be done to achieve a certificate under European legislation and costs less than trials on individual components. Such testing facilities are available in the USA, but will still cost way more than most essential oil suppliers can afford. ========================================= , Joshua Alexander <listservs@e...> wrote: > I have more questions about this safety testing, what it looks like, > how much it costs, how to get it done. > > Perhaps if there were some kind of association (and maybe there is) > of people like the ones on this list, we'd be able to do safety > testing on the new items (such as CO2 extracts & totals) we're > interested in without having to wait for some big cosmetics company > to do it. > > -Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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