Re:Preservatives/Styrax benzoin-to jane

[Guest guest]

>'Anecdotal knowledge' IS herbalism and aromatherapy ... way back

ourancestors didn't have GC/MS analysis or any other analysis<

 

Yes that's right but you seem to ignore the fact that traditional

medicine took thousands of years to develop and in that time many

people died as the result of inaccurate information. Nowadays herbal

medicine is backed by substantial amounts of scientific studies.

Unevaluated herbal knowledge spread by amateurs who have not studied

the subject properly is in itself very dangerous indeed. They have

rarely studied modern knowledge on the subject which can prove

traditional remedies were not always safe or effective. Here I am

not referring to CM as she has got some good knowledge. I am

referring to the amateurs on the newsgroups who pick up snippets of

information from books or the web and then come onto newsgroups as

knowledgeable when they are not.

 

>I strongly believe that a whole natural extract used in the right<

>dilution can never be as harmful as its lab-isolated orchemically-

reproduced equivalent.<

 

Well your belief system is unsound.

Are you suggesting that ricin is safe at great dilutions? It's a

perfectly natural substance. Are you suggesting it is safer and more

effective to inject poppy extract into someones veins when they are

in agony rather than morphine? Are you suggesting that expressed

bergamot oil is safer if diluted and used by someone living at high

altitude than a processed version or even a synthetic equivalent?

 

In reality many synthetic fragrance materials are known to be far

safer on the skin than their natural equivalents. That does not mean

I am recommending synthetics, but beliefs should be based on facts

not suppositions. In the case of this discussion on natural

preservatives it is well documented that hardly any are safer than

the equivalent synthetic ones. Even citrus seed extract is often

itself preserved with synthetic preservatives and I am not aware of

any skin safety testing. I have seen the results of using benzoin on

a young ladies face and it was just dreadful. I have photos of two

cases of bergamot oil photosensitisation also on the face from only 3

years ago. Likewise very disfiguring.

 

>In France they banned medical herbalism<

No they did not. What they banned was traditional healers from

offering medical type treatments for payment. There is nothing in

France to stop individuals treating themselves or their families with

herbs.

 

Martin

 

, <jane@a...> wrote:

> Hi Christa

> 'Anecdotal knowledge' IS herbalism and aromatherapy ... way back

our ancestors didn't have GC/MS analysis or any other analysis ...

just what their parents and grandparents taught them. We may

be 'proving' it with science now but 'accepted wisdom' amongst

cultures the world over is not to be sniffed at. We're talking about

personal choices here ... I strongly believe that a whole natural

extract used in the right dilution can never be as harmful as its lab-

isolated or chemically-reproduced equivalent.

> I just know I'm about to get shot down in flames but I'll take that

risk ... you stick to the knowledge you're happy with. In France they

banned medical herbalism in 1940-something and now all their plant-

lore is disappearing. There is even an ethno-botanical museum created

just to keep growing strains of the wild plants previously used

medicinally and they have created a record from all the 'old' people

of the surrounding villages of what was used for what.

> Here is their site ....

> http://www.musee-de-salagon.com/

> Best wishes

> Jane

>

> -

> Christa Maria

>

> Wednesday, December 15, 2004 1:28 PM

> Re: Re:Preservatives/Styrax benzoin

>

>

> When I wrote about balsam poplarbuds tincture and Benzoin, I just

passed

> on anecdotal knowledge.

> Not scientific one.

> This is what I was told by Keewaydenoqua* ( she taught ethnic

botany)

> AND had a good functioning knowledge of phytochemistry,

> That the tincture would do as a preservative AS Benzoin would do.

> That does not mean it would have the same effects a commercial

Benzoin,

> nor that the poplar Balsam may not have it's own problems.

> I just don't know. Don't know if anyone has taken poplar balsam

buds to

> investigate.

> The original question was , what there was out there on

a 'natural'

> preservative.

> I gave my 2 scents, am not a phyto Chemist.

> However, if Martin would say not to use it, I'll go along with

it, for

> he has mor eknowledge in this field than anyone and I trust his

research.

> C-M

>

> Ojibway wise woman and for many years my friend and teacher.She

has

> passed on.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Told y'all I'd get shot down in flames for my personal beliefs! Jane

-

aromamedical2003

Wednesday, December 15, 2004 11:17 PM

Re:Preservatives/Styrax benzoin-to jane

 

 

 

>'Anecdotal knowledge' IS herbalism and aromatherapy ... way back

ourancestors didn't have GC/MS analysis or any other analysis<

 

Yes that's right but you seem to ignore the fact that traditional

medicine took thousands of years to develop and in that time many

people died as the result of inaccurate information. Nowadays herbal

medicine is backed by substantial amounts of scientific studies.

Unevaluated herbal knowledge spread by amateurs who have not studied

the subject properly is in itself very dangerous indeed. They have

rarely studied modern knowledge on the subject which can prove

traditional remedies were not always safe or effective. Here I am

not referring to CM as she has got some good knowledge. I am

referring to the amateurs on the newsgroups who pick up snippets of

information from books or the web and then come onto newsgroups as

knowledgeable when they are not.

 

>I strongly believe that a whole natural extract used in the right<

>dilution can never be as harmful as its lab-isolated orchemically-

reproduced equivalent.<

 

Well your belief system is unsound.

Are you suggesting that ricin is safe at great dilutions? It's a

perfectly natural substance. Are you suggesting it is safer and more

effective to inject poppy extract into someones veins when they are

in agony rather than morphine? Are you suggesting that expressed

bergamot oil is safer if diluted and used by someone living at high

altitude than a processed version or even a synthetic equivalent?

 

In reality many synthetic fragrance materials are known to be far

safer on the skin than their natural equivalents. That does not mean

I am recommending synthetics, but beliefs should be based on facts

not suppositions. In the case of this discussion on natural

preservatives it is well documented that hardly any are safer than

the equivalent synthetic ones. Even citrus seed extract is often

itself preserved with synthetic preservatives and I am not aware of

any skin safety testing. I have seen the results of using benzoin on

a young ladies face and it was just dreadful. I have photos of two

cases of bergamot oil photosensitisation also on the face from only 3

years ago. Likewise very disfiguring.

 

>In France they banned medical herbalism<

No they did not. What they banned was traditional healers from

offering medical type treatments for payment. There is nothing in

France to stop individuals treating themselves or their families with

herbs.

 

Martin

 

, <jane@a...> wrote:

> Hi Christa

> 'Anecdotal knowledge' IS herbalism and aromatherapy ... way back

our ancestors didn't have GC/MS analysis or any other analysis ...

just what their parents and grandparents taught them. We may

be 'proving' it with science now but 'accepted wisdom' amongst

cultures the world over is not to be sniffed at. We're talking about

personal choices here ... I strongly believe that a whole natural

extract used in the right dilution can never be as harmful as its lab-

isolated or chemically-reproduced equivalent.

> I just know I'm about to get shot down in flames but I'll take that

risk ... you stick to the knowledge you're happy with. In France they

banned medical herbalism in 1940-something and now all their plant-

lore is disappearing. There is even an ethno-botanical museum created

just to keep growing strains of the wild plants previously used

medicinally and they have created a record from all the 'old' people

of the surrounding villages of what was used for what.

> Here is their site ....

> http://www.musee-de-salagon.com/

> Best wishes

> Jane

>

> -

> Christa Maria

>

> Wednesday, December 15, 2004 1:28 PM

> Re: Re:Preservatives/Styrax benzoin

>

>

> When I wrote about balsam poplarbuds tincture and Benzoin, I just

passed

> on anecdotal knowledge.

> Not scientific one.

> This is what I was told by Keewaydenoqua* ( she taught ethnic

botany)

> AND had a good functioning knowledge of phytochemistry,

> That the tincture would do as a preservative AS Benzoin would do.

> That does not mean it would have the same effects a commercial

Benzoin,

> nor that the poplar Balsam may not have it's own problems.

> I just don't know. Don't know if anyone has taken poplar balsam

buds to

> investigate.

> The original question was , what there was out there on

a 'natural'

> preservative.

> I gave my 2 scents, am not a phyto Chemist.

> However, if Martin would say not to use it, I'll go along with

it, for

> he has mor eknowledge in this field than anyone and I trust his

research.

> C-M

>

> Ojibway wise woman and for many years my friend and teacher.She

has

> passed on.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

You did not get shot down, Jane...you just got Martinized...

 

Personally, I would never get peeved to be shot down by Martin, as I

know he has much more knowledge than I have, in a much deeper scientific

way. I might know more what the Natives in my area used, but could in no

way scientifically substantiate it. Martin can and has done that,

extensively. I respect true knowledge.

 

When it comes to herbalism, I've been blessed to have some of the best

teachers one could have. My grandmother in childhood,several

Ojibway/Ottawa Elders in my region , especially Keewaydenoqua who also

had a degree in botany and taught at the University of Milwaukee as well

as every summer on an unpopulated island in Lake Michigan, primitive and

the 'old' way. Joyce Wardwell, who is my buddy, living close by and who

wrote a wonderful little herbal book.She also has much common sense and

works it with modern medicine when necessary.

In general, the only herbs I work with are the ones I know and was

taught by someone I trusted. I never had the guts to just study a book

and go from there... I need to see the plant grow, the whole environment

with it and have experimented myself what the plant does. That does not

mean that I don't' read herbal books, got about over 100 of them and

there is not ONE that gives me all of it that I would want to know..

I agree with Martin that just book reading or ' I've heard that' can at

times, be a dangerous thing.

Plants ARE medicine and not exactly harmless.

About ' natural' ! What a misnomer. Uranium is natural...!

I bought a goose for Christmas the other day. The label said, ' All

natural north american goose'... Hmm, I did not expect to find a decoy

made out of plastic at the store..

C-M

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Martin,

 

This is one of the reasons why I looked to learning from you. Birth knowledge

is the same type of arena. We 'know' so much anecdotally but we birth care

providers cannot stem nor change the tide of medicalized birth without having

proven what we 'know.'

 

On the one hand it's painful to constantly bang your head into the wall seeing

time after time the harm and ill conceived perception that birth is safe only

when you have that damn electronic fetal monitor or that breaking the bag of

waters helps speed labor or that induction MUST be done.

 

We could not begin to reach women beyond the scope of those who just 'knew' in

their hearts that those were scary things. We had to have research to back it

up. I've had attorneys in my classes and fast track career moms with college

degrees that I will probably never have the time to go after myself. They would

have walked out on my class if I did not have sound research or documentation to

back-up information I had that was directly in conflict with the medical

establishment.

 

On the other hand there are some things that I will never be able to prove such

as babies remember their births. I have my own personal little story that

confirms that. I can relate it to couples. It is not a medically proved story

but it certainly has swayed many a couple regarding their original birth and

labor beliefs.

 

Then of course, and this I believe Martin can really relate to, there is the

pain of having your documentation and research resources and STILL people

continue the way they do.

 

Jane, I am quite certain that you may feel that Martin is being that 'troll'

that some folks mention and some folks think it here but keep it to themselves.

You and the others should know that Martin is on the right track in getting this

information out. It's a very hard road to take. I take it a lot and sometimes

ask myself how much longer I can continue.

 

Martin is not attacking you or anyone else personally. He is righting the huge

wrong in the mounds of misinformation that is out there that could really hurt

people. He sees it in others besides YL. He sees it when someone gets the

wrong information from the starting blocks. That is my concern too with birth.

Why I will keep doing what I do - did I just say that I'm going to continue? I

try to reach women so that their first birth experience is a positive one and is

a strong foundation to build their family and home. Martin tries to reach

aromatherapists so that they have an educated foundation to stand on and what

they give to others as a service provider becomes a positive and healthy

experience for them.

 

Think of the people we all know who would never try aromatherapy. Most likely

they either have a firm belief in the medicalized way of health, think AT is all

hype (and if you look at what the majority of people refer to as AT it is) or

some new age, hippie concept.

 

You and I and a host of others on this list are representing a very small

percentage of people who practice or provide AT to others. It is the same in

the birth world...I believe less than 1.5% of births occur at home with about 5%

occurring in free standing birth centers was the last statistic I saw and a

small percentage of unassisted births being unaccounted for. I would say the

odds of truly educated and knowledgeable practicing AT folks is around the same

with the complementing majority percentage going for the medicine based on

'research.'

 

Jane, I hope - before I read the next post where I see your name - that you did

not take Martin's post here the wrong way. He comes across very blunt sometimes

and he knows that about himself. I know from the course I am taking with him.

He is also very protective and caring of his students and how they will take

care of others. It takes tremendous foresight and perseverance to use that as

your guide.

 

Butch, I see that you posted right after Jane. Such obvious clues to what I

believe I will find as I read further.

 

Butch, I really hope that you were the kind person that I've grown accustomed to

seeing. I will admit, speaking to you as a friend, that I did see one or two

replies from you that came back a little unlike you.

 

If I'm guessing right, well you all see my replies here first!!

 

Dale

-

aromamedical2003

Wednesday, December 15, 2004 6:17 PM

Re:Preservatives/Styrax benzoin-to jane

 

 

 

>'Anecdotal knowledge' IS herbalism and aromatherapy ... way back

ourancestors didn't have GC/MS analysis or any other analysis<

 

Yes that's right but you seem to ignore the fact that traditional

medicine took thousands of years to develop and in that time many

people died as the result of inaccurate information.

 

... snip ....

Well your belief system is unsound.

 

 

[Guest guest]

No Jane!! You're a sweetheart and you know so much.

 

I'm sure there are more people besides myself that understood what you meant by

your post. Martin just took the parts of your post that could be

mis-interpreted by others and addressed it quickly.

 

Dale

-

jane

Thursday, December 16, 2004 3:30 AM

Re: Re:Preservatives/Styrax benzoin-to jane

 

 

Told y'all I'd get shot down in flames for my personal beliefs! Jane