Guest guest Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question. I'm starting to do some infused oils, do you use fresh or dried plant material? What yields the best results? I'm going to start planing in my garden for next Spring - I had all vegetables this year, but I think I will do some herbs to use for infusions, but in the meantime I would like to use dried until my growth kicks in. Thank you. Michele Robles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 My opinion. Fresh herbs. Always fresh herbs. I have HEARD about some folk using dried herbs. Never done it myself. Would be best to ask Those folk about the dried. Cheers! Kathleen Petrides The PurrfinickyQueen http://www.fatcatcandleco.com Candles, Kitty Carpets, articles, practically everything but the Hairball! P.S. TOLD you this was a friendly list didn't I? ;-) > [Original Message] > <mquin > > 11/17/2004 12:09:24 PM > Infused Oils > > > > Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question. > > I'm starting to do some infused oils, do you use fresh or dried plant > material? What yields the best results? I'm going to start planing > in my garden for next Spring - I had all vegetables this year, but I > think I will do some herbs to use for infusions, but in the meantime > I would like to use dried until my growth kicks in. Thank you. > > Michele Robles > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 Yes, it's very friendly here, loving it. I guess I can wait till mine comes in. Michele Robles , " Kathleen Petrides " <PurrfinickyQueen@e...> wrote: > My opinion. Fresh herbs. Always fresh herbs. I have HEARD about some folk > using dried herbs. Never done it myself. Would be best to ask Those folk > about the dried. > > Cheers! > Kathleen Petrides > The PurrfinickyQueen > http://www.fatcatcandleco.com > Candles, Kitty Carpets, articles, practically everything but the Hairball! > > P.S. TOLD you this was a friendly list didn't I? ;-) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 Michelle, Some herbs lend themselves better to infusions than others, depends on what plants need water to extract their medicine, what needs alcohol and what needs fat. There is such a high rate of spoilage, that the only oil I infuse fresh is SJW, all other oils I slow heat infuse from dried herbs. However, for my salves with comfrey, plantain I use them fresh, slow infused, too and use dried calendula with it. I slow infuse my oils in a double boiler, using only sterilized glass, over very low, low heat, never bringing the oil to a boil. Than strain through a non bleached coffee filter and press through an old-fashioned potato ricer. C-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 We, too, like fresh herbal matter for infused oils - but in the dead of Winter we sometims have no choice but to use dried, and it does work too. Depends on what you have and how much you want to " mess " with it. I think that infusing with dried herbs is easier..you really don't have to worry about spoilage like you do with fresh herbal matter, especially nice juicy things like calendula heads or comfrey leaves. When we infuse our fresh matter, we usually cut/pick it in the morning, then let it wilt on some newspapers in the sun for a while (how long depends on the herb and the weather) until a good percentage of the water has gone out, but not until the herb is crunchy-dry. Then we infuse, and watch carefully for any moisture that may condense on the top of your container. We use our greenhouse to infuse, but others prefer lower temps/light levels. Also make sure if you are using fresh herbal matter that oil completely covers the top - you don't want any herby stuff poking out over the top of the oil or it will really want to get moldy, eew! Rosemary Gladstar's book " Herbal healing for women " has some nice info about infusing oils, that is what got us started- and it's a wonderful book for so many reasons, we recommend it to everyone! -maggie prairielandherbs.com , mquin@m... wrote: > > Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question. > > I'm starting to do some infused oils, do you use fresh or dried plant > material? What yields the best results? I'm going to start planing > in my garden for next Spring - I had all vegetables this year, but I > think I will do some herbs to use for infusions, but in the meantime > I would like to use dried until my growth kicks in. Thank you. > > Michele Robles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 Dear Michelle and Christa Maria, Hi there! I would like to jump in here and give my opinion about infused oils since I make aged infused oils and sell them. I have been making infused oils for about 20 years and I have many infused oils that go back to the early 1990's that have not spoiled or gone bad. It took me several years and much patience to develop a method that consistently gave me good reproducible results. I disagree with your statement Christa Maria about the high rate of spoilage and that SJW is the only herb to infuse. I infuse rose, helichrysum, oak moss, melissa, Chaste Berry/Vitex, African Blue Basil and many other herbs that have and have not a high water content. I have found that short-term infusions lend themselves to spoilage, mold, fungus and going rancid very quickly (when I speak about short-term infusions I am talking about anywhere from 24 hours being cooked, 3 days, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, and up to 3 months which is long-term for most short-term infusions) whereas I use a method that allows the infusions to set for a minimum of one year to as many years as needed. I recently commented that there were about as many methods to infuse herbs and flowers as there are different types of essential oils on the market. I did a study for a workshop and a paper that I did on infused oils at the last NAHA Conference and I found that basically no two people use the same method in this country unless they were taught by the same teacher. This tends to give out a lot of different information that may or may not be applicable to a situation for infusions. I infuse dried herbs almost the same way as I infuse fresh herbs and I have success with both types of herbs. The method that you use, C-M, is one of the more popular variations of infusing herbs for the short-term. I have also found that as long as the herb is left in the infused oil the stronger the oil will get. I wish that I could show you my helichrysum herbal oil experiment that I did for the conference. I showed infused oils from 3 days to 3 years. The color changes were dramatic. From day 3 to 4 weeks the herbs were a light yellow in color. From 6 weeks to 3 months they were becoming darker in color. From 9 months to 3 years the colors went from light emerald green to a brilliant dark emerald green, and these oils contained the same herb that it started out with on day one. Also, the amount of infused oil needed in a formula dramatically changed from having to use it by the ounce or more at 3 days to just under 9 months to using the infused oil by the drop beginning at 9 months to 3 years. The older the oil, the less infused oil you need to use and basically you also got a better smell. The world of infused oils is still very much a subjective field and study in aromatherapy. We have much to learn about using infused oils whether they are short-term (under 3 months) or long-term (one year and older). We need to have more research in this area. I find that infused oils work much better with the elderly, children and people with compromised immune systems because they are gentler and work more subtle. I think that we have a society that wants everything yesterday and that it will take quite a while for more long-term research to be done on infused oils. Also, at present, until there are established standards and guide lines to follow in making infused oils so that we are all making them from the same page and same verse, there will not be much work or research done in this area because if you can't make a profit, then why make the infused oils to sell? We have an entirely new area to explore in aromatherapy but because there are few incentives, there has not been much exploration or money put into this area. The more I work with infused oils the more I find that I want to learn about them and how to intergrate them into main stream aromatherapy. They are not glamorous but they are workhorses that add an entirely new and broader dimension to your work. I hope that this information gives another perspective about infused oils. If you polled a number of people on this list you would find that each of them used a slightly different method of infusion. C-M uses one method, I use another method. Neither method is wrong. It's an individual choice. I used to get upset over the many different methods used but in recent times after doing all the research I have done, I came to the conclusion that it is a matter of personal choice and that we are all right. Go for it, girl! If you would like to email me privately, Michelle, then please do so. By the way, C-M, I hope that your vision improves. You are in my prayers for a full recovery. Have a great week! Sincerely, Rhavda Emison Scents of Success (http://www.scentsofsuccess) Texas Made - USA Made Rose Oil Products Rose, Helichrysum, Oak Moss, Melissa, Vitex, & Other Aged Herbal Infused Oils >Michelle, > Some herbs lend themselves better to infusions than others, depends on >what plants need water to extract their medicine, what needs alcohol and >what needs fat. >There is such a high rate of spoilage, that the only oil I infuse fresh >is SJW, all other oils I slow heat infuse from dried herbs. >However, for my salves with comfrey, plantain I use them fresh, slow >infused, too and use dried calendula with it. >I slow infuse my oils in a double boiler, using only sterilized glass, >over very low, low heat, never bringing the oil to a boil. >Than strain through a non bleached coffee filter and press through an >old-fashioned potato ricer. >C-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 Hi Rhavda, I agree with many of the things you said, especially with: << I infuse rose, helichrysum, oak moss, melissa, Chaste Berry/Vitex, African Blue Basil and many other herbs that have and have not a high water content. >> As I mentioned it takes different menstrums to get the medicine out of an herb and not all essential oils have the same application or potency as the infused oils have.Such as SJW, which is not very useful as an EO or made from the dried herb which I always sun infuse. Personally, I just use a limited amount of infused oils in my salves. I had the infused oils of fresh comfrey and plantain go rancid on me after a year and that sort of took me away from a lot of exploring later on. Also , I used olive oil. BUT made sure they where in sterile dark jars and kept cool. I think there is a lot of knowledge to be gained from people who have successfully infused herbs in oil for longterm use and agree that they are easier ,gentler in many ways. It's good to have people on this list to share their experiences. Last not least, my writings are not written in stone:) I am always eager to learn more or stay corrected C-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 Dear Christa Maria, Thanks for your reply. It's good to know that other people are interested in what the infusions can do. I agree with you about comfrey and plantain going rancid after a particular time. (Mine generally start smelling bad in about 3 years because I used coconut oil as the base.) I found that the base carrier oil used is one of the most important things in keeping a long shelf-life for the infusions. I especially use coconut oil when infusing comfrey, muellin, lobelia, and plantain because they have such a sour smell no matter what you do to them. I use other base carrier oils for herbs that smell better. I remember you from Marge Clark's list talking about the American Indian ways, if my memory is correct, and I have followed your posts since that time. I have always loved the way that you talked about making your calendula oil and the bright orange color that it came out. When I did my research on the different infusion methods I called over 30 different companies (both internet and regular off-line) to see how they did their thing. Girl, was I surprised. I expected there to be more standardization in the methods but instead I found a wide range of methods along with most people copying the 1st chapter from Kathi Keville's aromatherapy book written back in about 1997. Most of the web sites just copied her book's 1st chapter almost word for word. I was most surprised to find most of the chapter on a web site in Australia. So I decided I have a lot more to learn and a lot more research to do as well as try to convince people that maybe we need short-term infusions for work in certain areas and long-term infusions for work in other areas. This in itself would create a new area that complemented the existing areas that we now have in aromatherapy but getting this accomplished will take years. So now when I answer a post I try to be more " neutral " and give several methods and my own experience rather than upset someone. I think that by doing this, people will begin to think and we will see work start to be done in this area that complements and enhances our other areas in aromatherapy. We're just beginning to start a new road in our profession and hopefully, within a short time see progress. I believe that we will find that we will enhance the capabilities of our formulas made with essential oils by also using certain aged infused oils with them. One of the main things that I have learned in working and making infusions is that " nothing is indeed, written in stone, " and to be prepared to change your views because you're always going to be learning something new. Again, thanks for your comments. We need dialogue to get people to talk about their experience so that we can all learn more about working and making infusions. Have a great day! Sincerely, Rhavda >I agree with many of the things you said, especially with: ><< > > I >infuse rose, helichrysum, oak moss, melissa, Chaste Berry/Vitex, African >Blue Basil and many other herbs that have and have not a high water content. >> > >As I mentioned it takes different menstrums to get the medicine out of an herb and not all essential oils have the same application or potency as the infused oils have.Such as SJW, which is not very useful as an EO or made from the dried herb which I always sun infuse. > >Personally, I just use a limited amount of infused oils in my salves. > I had the infused oils of fresh comfrey and plantain go rancid on me after a year and that sort of took me away from a lot of exploring later on. >Also , I used olive oil. BUT made sure they where in sterile dark jars and kept cool. >I think there is a lot of knowledge to be gained from people who have successfully infused herbs in oil for longterm use and agree that they are easier ,gentler in many ways. It's good to have people on this list to share their experiences. >Last not least, my writings are not written in stone:) >I am always eager to learn more or stay corrected >C-M > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 , Christa Maria <cmaria@t...> wrote: > As I mentioned it takes different menstrums to get the medicine out of an herb and not all essential oils have the same application or potency as the infused oils have.Such as SJW, which is not very useful as an EO or made from the dried herb which I always sun infuse. Hi Christa Maria: Glad to see you posting, and sending healing vibes your way. I sun infused my SJW at first, but found I like to do the bain marie method. In trials, the results for pain relief were statistically very close. I also agree that it takes different menstrums to get the medicine out of an herb, sometimes water is needed, sometimes oil, sometimes alcohol. Study and observation will dictate the proper method of extraction. And, LOL, EOs are EOs -- just distill those materials. > > Personally, I just use a limited amount of infused oils in my salves. I had the infused oils of fresh comfrey and plantain go rancid on me after a year and that sort of took me away from a lot of exploring later on. Several of the herbalists I have studied with, some near, some in far-off lands, recommend that the only herb that NEEDS to be fresh when infusing in SJW, so I now do all mine from dried. After all, that is the wisdom of the ages, the traditional way. If someone could explain and show how freshly-infused comfrey or plantain was superior, I'd consider switching, but so far, no one has. > Also , I used olive oil. BUT made sure they where in sterile dark jars and kept cool. I think there is a lot of knowledge to be gained from people who have successfully infused herbs in oil for longterm use and agree that they are easier ,gentler in many ways. It's good to have people on this list to share their experiences. I have found that the secret is, for me, EVOO, and having little or no headspace in the jars. If I decant some off, I transfer the remainder to smaller jars to minimize the oxidation. Leave headspace, even with the most carefully infused dried herbs, and I guarantee the oil will go rancid. > Last not least, my writings are not written in stone:) They're not in sand, either, so it's good you're sharing. > I am always eager to learn more or stay corrected Herbalism is a never-ending learning experience. We have the wisdom of the Ages handed down to us, and we have to learn to filter out what we need or what is relevant to us, like me never infusing anything but SJW fresh :-) In perfumery, this is also true. I have infused fresh R. damascena petals, and dried damascena buds, and the scent is wonderful either way, but the oils got used up so fast, I never got to see if the fresh oil went rancid. http://anyamccoy.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 Hi Rhavda: This is definitely one of those " you say potato, I say potahto " discussions, much like a recipe can have many variations, but there are several points I'd like to dig a little deeper into, just from my experience with herbs, aromatherapy, etc. >I have also found that as long as the herb is left in the infused oil the stronger the oil will get. I wish that I could show you my helichrysum herbal oil experiment that I did for the conference. I showed infused oils from 3 days to 3 years. The color changes were dramatic. From day 3 to 4 weeks the herbs were a light yellow in color. From 6 weeks to 3 months they were becoming darker in color. From 9 months to 3 years the colors went from light emerald green to a brilliant dark emerald green, and these oilscontained the same herb that it started out with on day one. < The color intensity change has been observed for centuries, and it's not that the oil is getting " stronger " , it is that the chlorphyll is being released from the cells. This chlorphyll extraction has nothing to do with the medicinal properties of the herb. >Also, theamount of infused oil needed in a formula dramatically changed from havingto use it by the ounce or more at 3 days to just under 9 months to using theinfused oil by the drop beginning at 9 months to 3 years. The older the oil,the less infused oil you need to use and basically you also got a bettersmell. < I've never heard of this. Have any of the other herbalists on this list experienced this? With your permission, Rhavda, I'll post this on an herbalists' list I to, because if this is true, I'll want to switch my methods. I mean, who wouldn't? :-) >The world of infused oils is still very much a subjective field and study in aromatherapy. < Sorry, but this is where you lost me. Confusion reigns. AT is the use of EOs, (ala Gattefosse) and infused oils are herbalism. I know that many of the AT fakery books confuse herbal uses of plants with AT properties of plants, so my head is twirling with this. I make infused oils that I add EOs to, but that's not a true AT product, that's a boosted herbal product, IMO, and even then I'd say that only in a modern context, since herbalists were using EOs for centuries (very sparingly.) >We have much to learn about using infused oils whether they are short-term (under 3 months) or long-term (one year and older). We need to have more research in this area. I find that infused oils work much better with the elderly, children and people with compromised immune systems because they are gentler and work more subtle.< This is very true (the part about them being gentle, don't know about the timeline). Mostly true because the infused oils are less volatile and concentrated than EOs, aside from not having the same properties, yes? > I think that we have a society that wants everything yesterday and that it will take quite a while for more long-term research to be done on infused oils. < Rhavda, there are centuries of " research " , both empirical, and scientific, on infused oils. Much of it is from Europe and Asia. I have copies of some books that are hundreds of years old with infused oil recipes and their use by physicians and herbalists of those times. Their work has never been challenged, and any old hills granny in America could produce the results of her " research " , too. You might want to look into the German Commission E monographs, available online via http://herbalgram.org for a starting place for your research. Great resource for herbalists. Also Henriette's page http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed/ The Kings, Felters and Ellingswoods Materia Medicas there are invaluable for info on traditional uses of herbs, infused or otherwise. One of my favorite sites is http://botanical.com where Mrs. Grieve's botanical book can be found. >Also, at present, until there are established standards and guide lines to follow in making infused oils so that we are all making them from the same page andsame verse, there will not be much work or research done in this areabecause if you can't make a profit, then why make the infused oils to sell?< check out any health food store. They have infused SJW. For $10/oz. I hope the references I've supplied will help you see that herbalists are on the same page, for the most part. Additionally, and I don't know if I'm reading you correctly, but are you asking for standardization in the oils? Herbalists will fight you tooth and nail on this :-) Oh, places like HerbPharm and EclecticHerbs are doing great work (mostly alcohol extracts) and they are helping legitimatize (sp?) herbs, but practicing herbalists know that like wine, herbs vary from year to year, soil to soil, etc., and it doesn't matter (usually) if you get 60mg of an active ingredient, or 200mg, as long as you get the results. That's the way it's always been. >We have an entirely new area to explore in aromatherapy but because there are few incentives, there has not been much exploration or money put into this area. The more I work with infused oils the more I find that I want to learn about them and how to intergrate them into main stream aromatherapy.< OK, you've lost me again, since you're blending AT and herbalism. Since AT isn't funded, I don't seen AT people driving (or funding) infused oil research. Just my take on it, after years of observing the AT community. Most EO research is being conducted in the medical community, or the clinical community, with some input from medical practitioners who get little grants for some trials. I have never heard of them blending AT and herbalism, but if you have, please share, that would be an interesting study, and I'd like to check it out. >I hope that this information gives another perspective about infused oils. If you polled a number of people on this list you would find that each of them used a slightly different method of infusion. C-M uses one method, I use another method. Neither method is wrong. It's an individual choice. I used to get upset over the many different methods used but in recent times after doing all the research I have done, I came to the conclusion that it is a matter of personal choice and that we are all right.< Yep, we're all like ol' granny with her stew recipe. Some add a dash of this, another adds a handful, some had a pinch of something, others leave it out. Cook for two hours, simmer for four. It's all old wise woman cookery, when you come right down to it, and we women want to stick to our recipes, dammit! LOL http://anyamccoy.com " Nature and Nature's law lay hid in night; God said " Let Tesla Be " and all was light. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 Question. If you are administering the actual plant in the form of a capsule, eating the plant or making a tea from it, yes, we are talking about herbalism. But if you are infusing the plant in an oil so that its properties become melded with the oil, does that not become part of the aromatherapy field. What is the difference between infusing a plant and distilling it besides the two having different chemical properties? If you infuse plant material, then it becomes an aromatic, just as a distilled one would, yes? At this point, once an oil is involved, I have trouble separating the two, it's how you intend to use the oil that's the issue because they have then different properties, but IMO I see it as still part of aromatherapy. Or is it that AT is really just another form of herbalism and the term " aromatherapy " is slowly becoming like the word " new age " . Perhaps some other opinions would be interesting. Michele Robles > >The world of infused oils is still very much a subjective field and > study in aromatherapy. < > > Sorry, but this is where you lost me. Confusion reigns. AT is the use > of EOs, (ala Gattefosse) and infused oils are herbalism. I know that > many of the AT fakery books confuse herbal uses of plants with AT > properties of plants, so my head is twirling with this. I make infused > oils that I add EOs to, but that's not a true AT product, that's a > boosted herbal product, IMO, and even then I'd say that only in a > modern context, since herbalists were using EOs for centuries (very > sparingly.) > >We have an entirely new area to explore in aromatherapy but because > there are few incentives, there has not been much exploration or money > put into this area. The more I work with infused oils the more I find > that I want to learn about them and how to intergrate them into main > stream aromatherapy.< > > OK, you've lost me again, since you're blending AT and herbalism. > Since AT isn't funded, I don't seen AT people driving (or funding) > infused oil research. Just my take on it, after years of observing the > AT community. Most EO research is being conducted in the medical > community, or the clinical community, with some input from medical > practitioners who get little grants for some trials. I have never > heard of them blending AT and herbalism, but if you have, please > share, that would be an interesting study, and I'd like to check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 Hi Rhavda, May I ask what properties lobelia has? Which particular kind? I grew a Navajo Red, and a blue variety this summer. I would have saved them if I had known they could have been used. Thank you for your information. Karen S. - <sos79 > > Dear Christa Maria, > Thanks for your reply. It's good to know that other people are > interested in what the infusions can do. I agree with you about comfrey > and > plantain going rancid after a particular time. (Mine generally start > smelling bad in about 3 years because I used coconut oil as the base.) I > found that the base carrier oil used is one of the most important things > in > keeping a long shelf-life for the infusions. I especially use coconut oil > when infusing comfrey, muellin, lobelia, and plantain because they have > such > a sour smell no matter what you do to them. I use other base carrier oils Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 I just have to jump in here .... AT is the use of EOs, (ala Gattefosse) and infused oils are herbalism. I know that many of the AT fakery books confuse herbal uses of plants with AT properties of plants, so my head is twirling with this. I make infused oils that I add EOs to, but that's not a true AT product, that's a boosted herbal product, IMO, I disagree with this statement - Aromatherapy is not just the expression allegedly coined by Gattefosse when he (according to legend) stuck his burnt hand in a vat of Lavender oil at his family's perfumery plant in Grasse. I'm sorry ... I'm a French-speaker, lived there for years and love the country, etc. but they did not invent aromatherapy as I practice it. To practice aromatherapy in France today I'd have to be medically qualified and prescribe EOs to be taken internally. That's not what I'm about. What I do was more created by Marguerite Maury (nee Konig - an Austrian by birth, resident in the UK) and then taught by women such as Micheline Arcier and Patricia Davis in the 70s and 80s. Herbalism is about taking tinctures, etc. of herbs internally too. Aromatherapy as I practice it is the external use of plant material in any form I think appropriate - and that can include infusions, floral water, herbal oils, vegetable oils, creams/lotions, etc. etc. I actually believe aromatherapists and herbalists are a lot closer than most herbalists would like to believe! Additionally, and I don't know if I'm reading you correctly, but are you asking for standardization in the oils? Herbalists will fight you tooth and nail on this :-) I don't know about in the US but here in the UK, herbs for internal use have been standardised for a while. As you say later, it is impossible to standardise natural products - they must be per se 'interferred with'. There is talk sometimes of trying this with EOs (and I know of one in particular - my favourite subject, Lavender - which is most definitely interferred with routinely in order to produce a favourable analysis). Best wishes Jane www.thestoryoflavender.com www.fineoils.co.uk - rastapoodle Friday, November 19, 2004 4:25 AM Re: Infused Oils Hi Rhavda: This is definitely one of those " you say potato, I say potahto " discussions, much like a recipe can have many variations, but there are several points I'd like to dig a little deeper into, just from my experience with herbs, aromatherapy, etc. >I have also found that as long as the herb is left in the infused oil the stronger the oil will get. I wish that I could show you my helichrysum herbal oil experiment that I did for the conference. I showed infused oils from 3 days to 3 years. The color changes were dramatic. From day 3 to 4 weeks the herbs were a light yellow in color. From 6 weeks to 3 months they were becoming darker in color. From 9 months to 3 years the colors went from light emerald green to a brilliant dark emerald green, and these oilscontained the same herb that it started out with on day one. < The color intensity change has been observed for centuries, and it's not that the oil is getting " stronger " , it is that the chlorphyll is being released from the cells. This chlorphyll extraction has nothing to do with the medicinal properties of the herb. >Also, theamount of infused oil needed in a formula dramatically changed from havingto use it by the ounce or more at 3 days to just under 9 months to using theinfused oil by the drop beginning at 9 months to 3 years. The older the oil,the less infused oil you need to use and basically you also got a bettersmell. < I've never heard of this. Have any of the other herbalists on this list experienced this? With your permission, Rhavda, I'll post this on an herbalists' list I to, because if this is true, I'll want to switch my methods. I mean, who wouldn't? :-) >The world of infused oils is still very much a subjective field and study in aromatherapy. < Sorry, but this is where you lost me. Confusion reigns. AT is the use of EOs, (ala Gattefosse) and infused oils are herbalism. I know that many of the AT fakery books confuse herbal uses of plants with AT properties of plants, so my head is twirling with this. I make infused oils that I add EOs to, but that's not a true AT product, that's a boosted herbal product, IMO, and even then I'd say that only in a modern context, since herbalists were using EOs for centuries (very sparingly.) >We have much to learn about using infused oils whether they are short-term (under 3 months) or long-term (one year and older). We need to have more research in this area. I find that infused oils work much better with the elderly, children and people with compromised immune systems because they are gentler and work more subtle.< This is very true (the part about them being gentle, don't know about the timeline). Mostly true because the infused oils are less volatile and concentrated than EOs, aside from not having the same properties, yes? > I think that we have a society that wants everything yesterday and that it will take quite a while for more long-term research to be done on infused oils. < Rhavda, there are centuries of " research " , both empirical, and scientific, on infused oils. Much of it is from Europe and Asia. I have copies of some books that are hundreds of years old with infused oil recipes and their use by physicians and herbalists of those times. Their work has never been challenged, and any old hills granny in America could produce the results of her " research " , too. You might want to look into the German Commission E monographs, available online via http://herbalgram.org for a starting place for your research. Great resource for herbalists. Also Henriette's page http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed/ The Kings, Felters and Ellingswoods Materia Medicas there are invaluable for info on traditional uses of herbs, infused or otherwise. One of my favorite sites is http://botanical.com where Mrs. Grieve's botanical book can be found. >Also, at present, until there are established standards and guide lines to follow in making infused oils so that we are all making them from the same page andsame verse, there will not be much work or research done in this areabecause if you can't make a profit, then why make the infused oils to sell?< check out any health food store. They have infused SJW. For $10/oz. I hope the references I've supplied will help you see that herbalists are on the same page, for the most part. Additionally, and I don't know if I'm reading you correctly, but are you asking for standardization in the oils? Herbalists will fight you tooth and nail on this :-) Oh, places like HerbPharm and EclecticHerbs are doing great work (mostly alcohol extracts) and they are helping legitimatize (sp?) herbs, but practicing herbalists know that like wine, herbs vary from year to year, soil to soil, etc., and it doesn't matter (usually) if you get 60mg of an active ingredient, or 200mg, as long as you get the results. That's the way it's always been. >We have an entirely new area to explore in aromatherapy but because there are few incentives, there has not been much exploration or money put into this area. The more I work with infused oils the more I find that I want to learn about them and how to intergrate them into main stream aromatherapy.< OK, you've lost me again, since you're blending AT and herbalism. Since AT isn't funded, I don't seen AT people driving (or funding) infused oil research. Just my take on it, after years of observing the AT community. Most EO research is being conducted in the medical community, or the clinical community, with some input from medical practitioners who get little grants for some trials. I have never heard of them blending AT and herbalism, but if you have, please share, that would be an interesting study, and I'd like to check it out. >I hope that this information gives another perspective about infused oils. If you polled a number of people on this list you would find that each of them used a slightly different method of infusion. C-M uses one method, I use another method. Neither method is wrong. It's an individual choice. I used to get upset over the many different methods used but in recent times after doing all the research I have done, I came to the conclusion that it is a matter of personal choice and that we are all right.< Yep, we're all like ol' granny with her stew recipe. Some add a dash of this, another adds a handful, some had a pinch of something, others leave it out. Cook for two hours, simmer for four. It's all old wise woman cookery, when you come right down to it, and we women want to stick to our recipes, dammit! LOL Anya http://anyamccoy.com " Nature and Nature's law lay hid in night; God said " Let Tesla Be " and all was light. " Step By Step Instructions On Making Rose Petal Preserves: http://www.av-at.com/stuff/rosejam.html To adjust your group settings (i.e. go no mail) see the following link: /join Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 Dear Anya, May we continue this discussion sometime next week? I'm headed out of town to a family wedding today and won't be back until later this weekend. I do beg to differ with you that infused oils are aromatherapy because what is your base carrier oil if not an infused oil? I, too, have done considerable reading and I will go back to Robert Tisserand's early 1990 or 1992 article on the different areas that are within the scope of aromatherapy. I think that you are limiting your vision of what can be done with herbal oils. I know about the chlorphyll but the oils do get stronger as they age. They will melt glass the same as an eo after a certain point and what you are calling an infused oil is an oil that shouldn't do this. Yes, I would like to see some type of standardization just so that we are all buying the same strength of infused oils and we would know when we are buying long-term aged oils instead of short-term oils. I like the fact that I can use my infused oils by the drop and not by the ounce. I will go to the web sites that you suggested when I get back. To me, herbalism is the use of dried herbs that you make into politices and teas and tinctures. Oils fall under the category of aromatherapy. I look forward to continuing this discussion next week either online or off the list. Sincerely, Rhavda > > >Hi Rhavda: > >This is definitely one of those " you say potato, I say potahto " >discussions, much like a recipe can have many variations, but there >are several points I'd like to dig a little deeper into, just from my >experience with herbs, aromatherapy, etc. > >>I have also found that as long as the herb is left in the infused oil >the stronger the oil will get. I wish that I could show you my >helichrysum herbal oil experiment that I did for the conference. I >showed infused oils from 3 days to 3 years. The color changes were >dramatic. From day 3 to 4 weeks the herbs were a light yellow in >color. From 6 weeks to 3 months they were becoming darker in color. >From 9 months to 3 years the colors went from light emerald green to a >brilliant dark emerald green, and these oilscontained the same herb >that it started out with on day one. < > >The color intensity change has been observed for centuries, and it's >not that the oil is getting " stronger " , it is that the chlorphyll is >being released from the cells. This chlorphyll extraction has nothing >to do with the medicinal properties of the herb. > >>Also, theamount of infused oil needed in a formula dramatically >changed from havingto use it by the ounce or more at 3 days to just >under 9 months to using theinfused oil by the drop beginning at 9 >months to 3 years. The older the oil,the less infused oil you need to >use and basically you also got a bettersmell. < > >I've never heard of this. Have any of the other herbalists on this >list experienced this? With your permission, Rhavda, I'll post this on >an herbalists' list I to, because if this is true, I'll want >to switch my methods. I mean, who wouldn't? >:-) > >>The world of infused oils is still very much a subjective field and >study in aromatherapy. < > >Sorry, but this is where you lost me. Confusion reigns. AT is the use >of EOs, (ala Gattefosse) and infused oils are herbalism. I know that >many of the AT fakery books confuse herbal uses of plants with AT >properties of plants, so my head is twirling with this. I make infused >oils that I add EOs to, but that's not a true AT product, that's a >boosted herbal product, IMO, and even then I'd say that only in a >modern context, since herbalists were using EOs for centuries (very >sparingly.) > >>We have much to learn about using infused oils >whether they are short-term (under 3 months) or long-term (one year >and older). We need to have more research in this area. I find that >infused oils work much better with the elderly, children and people >with compromised immune systems because they are gentler and work more >subtle.< > >This is very true (the part about them being gentle, don't know about >the timeline). Mostly true because the infused oils are less volatile >and concentrated than EOs, aside from not having the same properties, yes? > >> I think that we have a society that wants everything yesterday and >that it will take quite a while for more long-term research to be done >on infused oils. < > >Rhavda, there are centuries of " research " , both empirical, and >scientific, on infused oils. Much of it is from Europe and Asia. I >have copies of some books that are hundreds of years old with infused >oil recipes and their use by physicians and herbalists of those times. >Their work has never been challenged, and any old hills granny in >America could produce the results of her " research " , too. You might >want to look into the German Commission E monographs, available online >via http://herbalgram.org for a starting place for your research. >Great resource for herbalists. Also Henriette's page >http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed/ The Kings, Felters and Ellingswoods >Materia Medicas there are invaluable for info on traditional uses of >herbs, infused or otherwise. One of my favorite sites is >http://botanical.com where Mrs. Grieve's botanical book can be found. > >>Also, >at present, until there are established standards and guide lines to >follow in making infused oils so that we are all making them from the >same page andsame verse, there will not be much work or research done >in this areabecause if you can't make a profit, then why make the >infused oils to sell?< > >check out any health food store. They have infused SJW. For $10/oz. >I hope the references I've supplied will help you see that herbalists >are on the same page, for the most part. Additionally, and I don't >know if I'm reading you correctly, but are you asking for >standardization in the oils? Herbalists will fight you tooth and nail >on this :-) Oh, places like HerbPharm and EclecticHerbs are doing >great work (mostly alcohol extracts) and they are helping legitimatize >(sp?) herbs, but practicing herbalists know that like wine, herbs vary >from year to year, soil to soil, etc., and it doesn't matter (usually) >if you get 60mg of an active ingredient, or 200mg, as long as you get >the results. That's the way it's always been. > >>We have an entirely new area to explore in aromatherapy but because >there are few incentives, there has not been much exploration or money >put into this area. The more I work with infused oils the more I find >that I want to learn about them and how to intergrate them into main >stream aromatherapy.< > >OK, you've lost me again, since you're blending AT and herbalism. >Since AT isn't funded, I don't seen AT people driving (or funding) >infused oil research. Just my take on it, after years of observing the >AT community. Most EO research is being conducted in the medical >community, or the clinical community, with some input from medical >practitioners who get little grants for some trials. I have never >heard of them blending AT and herbalism, but if you have, please >share, that would be an interesting study, and I'd like to check it out. > >>I hope that this information gives another perspective about infused >oils. If you polled a number of people on this list you would find >that each of them used a slightly different method of infusion. C-M >uses one method, I use another method. Neither method is wrong. It's >an individual choice. I used to get upset over the many different >methods used but in recent times after doing all the research I have >done, I came to the conclusion that it is a matter of personal choice >and that we are all right.< > >Yep, we're all like ol' granny with her stew recipe. Some add a dash >of this, another adds a handful, some had a pinch of something, others >leave it out. Cook for two hours, simmer for four. It's all old wise >woman cookery, when you come right down to it, and we women want to >stick to our recipes, dammit! LOL > >Anya >http://anyamccoy.com > " Nature and Nature's law lay hid in night; > God said " Let Tesla Be " and all was light. " > > > > > > > > > >Step By Step Instructions On Making Rose Petal Preserves: http://www.av-at.com/stuff/rosejam.html > >To adjust your group settings (i.e. go no mail) see the following link: /join > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 , mquin@m... wrote: > > Question. If you are administering the actual plant in the form of a > capsule, eating the plant or making a tea from it, yes, we are > talking about herbalism. > > But if you are infusing the plant in an oil so that its properties > become melded with the oil, does that not become part of the > aromatherapy field. Not from the standards of what I studied as aromatherapy. Aromatherapy is the use of *distilled* plant material, not infused. Also, infused herbal oils frequently have no fragrance, especially the kind of fragrance that EOs have. What is the difference between infusing a plant > and distilling it besides the two having different chemical > properties? If you infuse plant material, then it becomes an > aromatic, just as a distilled one would, yes? No, most infused herbs have little or no scent, and those that do have a scent are often called anything other than pleasing scents :-) And you hit the nail on the head -- the chemical properties are very different, so the user has to study two disciplines -- herbalism and aromatherapy chemistry to use them properly. Most ATs have little or no training in herbalism (general statement, I know, but it's from my experience), and many, many herbalists I know have NO interest in AT. > At this point, once an oil is involved, I have trouble separating the > two, it's how you intend to use the oil that's the issue because they > have then different properties, but IMO I see it as still part of > aromatherapy. Or is it that AT is really just another form of > herbalism and the term " aromatherapy " is slowly becoming like the > word " new age " . I think you hit the nail on the head there, Michelle. If Glade can say their cucumber rose daisy-fresh doodads for the bathroom are aromatherapy, the term has been bastardized into a joke. That is a shame, but we are seeing more and more misuse of the term. http://anyamccoy.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 --- " rastapoodle " wrote: <snip> > No, most infused herbs have little or no scent, and those that do have a scent are often called anything other than pleasing scents :-) > > And you hit the nail on the head -- the chemical properties are very > different, so the user has to study two disciplines -- herbalism and > aromatherapy chemistry to use them properly. Most ATs have little or > no training in herbalism (general statement, I know, but it's from my experience), and many, many herbalists I know have NO interest in AT. > > I think you hit the nail on the head there, Michelle. If Glade can say their cucumber rose daisy-fresh doodads for the bathroom are > aromatherapy, the term has been bastardized into a joke. That is a > shame, but we are seeing more and more misuse of the term. > > Anya > http://anyamccoy.com Hi Anya, Great explaination of it all! Good to see you here more lately! Andrea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 Thanks Anya. Michele Robles , " rastapoodle " <mccoy@n...> wrote: > > > , mquin@m... wrote: > > > > Question. If you are administering the actual plant in the form of a > > capsule, eating the plant or making a tea from it, yes, we are > > talking about herbalism. > > > > But if you are infusing the plant in an oil so that its properties > > become melded with the oil, does that not become part of the > > aromatherapy field. > > Not from the standards of what I studied as aromatherapy. Aromatherapy > is the use of *distilled* plant material, not infused. Also, infused > herbal oils frequently have no fragrance, especially the kind of > fragrance that EOs have. > > What is the difference between infusing a plant > > and distilling it besides the two having different chemical > > properties? If you infuse plant material, then it becomes an > > aromatic, just as a distilled one would, yes? > > No, most infused herbs have little or no scent, and those that do have > a scent are often called anything other than pleasing scents :-) > > And you hit the nail on the head -- the chemical properties are very > different, so the user has to study two disciplines -- herbalism and > aromatherapy chemistry to use them properly. Most ATs have little or > no training in herbalism (general statement, I know, but it's from my > experience), and many, many herbalists I know have NO interest in AT. > > > > At this point, once an oil is involved, I have trouble separating the > > two, it's how you intend to use the oil that's the issue because they > > have then different properties, but IMO I see it as still part of > > aromatherapy. Or is it that AT is really just another form of > > herbalism and the term " aromatherapy " is slowly becoming like the > > word " new age " . > > I think you hit the nail on the head there, Michelle. If Glade can say > their cucumber rose daisy-fresh doodads for the bathroom are > aromatherapy, the term has been bastardized into a joke. That is a > shame, but we are seeing more and more misuse of the term. > > Anya > http://anyamccoy.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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